HogansGoat

As cynical and jaded as I am, I have seldom been called naïve or easy to scam, but I seem to continually fall victim to the best scam artists around, The Healthcare Industry. 30 years ago or so I had some fillings installed due to childish reluctance to dental hygiene. I was 8ish. These things lasted me 30 years which is very impressive. But recently, a couple have been sensitive to temperature and pressure so I said hey, it must be time to have them replaced; it’s not like you can just change the oil or something, you gotta excavate, a disturbing concept regarding ones face in and of itself. I am not a dental professional so I have no idea what options I have, I just want the pain to stop and I expect the 250k/y medically trained oral hygienist with more than 5 years experience to know enough about procedures and the industry to advise me of the appropriate solution. They guy does a great job and you can’t even tell there are any fillings in the three replacements. Mad skillz. Then I get a bill for $791. Hahaha, he didn’t have insurance you chortle. Oh but I do, or at least thought I did. I am paying for it. It turns out, “white” fillings in the rear teeth are not covered with my company’s plan. What the hell? How can I make an informed decision if nobody informs me? There are different types of fillings? Am I dentist? Yeah I know ignorance is no excuse, but hey how often do you go to the dentist? Do you know exactly what isn’t covered? I now realize that I have to treat my doctor and dentist like the schmuck at the local computer retailer. I have to become a fucking dentist and a doctor to make sure I don’t get screwed.



What the hell is wrong with law makers? Is it greed or stupidity? I think we need a new special interest group called PETH: People for the Ethical Treatment of Humans. We certainly can’t count on a political party for doing anything but lining their wallets and securing their seat in whatever position they hold. How about we STOP paying their fucking salaries when they leave office like every other job?

Since my dentist is stupid or crooked, i will be making payments. Sue me. I only pray that they bring me their computer one day.

samcol

I am 100% against national healthcare like medicare and medicaid. I am so tired of being forced to pay these criminals. Socialized healthcare and health insurance are just complicated ponzi schemes in my opinion. About the only examples I ever hear of is how someone is either grossly ripping off the system, or not getting treatment when they really do deserve it. We would be better off as a country to get rid of it and let the free market handle it entirely.

All I carry now is basically a disaster healthcare plan that has a very high deductable and would cover me under severe medical conditions. For day to day health I just try to rely on eating better and exercising. I never visit the doctor but their always is a possibility of getting cancer or something so that's why I carry the high deductable health insurance.

I am a firm believer that the health industry isn't trying to cure any diseases, they are just in the business of getting you to "survive" the disease. Instead of having 6 months to live, they can stretch it to 5 years if you can find a way to pay millions for it.

xepherys

I don't fault your dentist very much either. He certainly can't keep up with all of the different plans from all of the different insurance carriers anymore than you can keep up with white/silver fillings in the front/back. I blame the carrier, not only because it's easier to do so, but because they have a long standing track record of being crooked. Insurance is hedging your bets, sure... unfortunately the house (almost) always wins.

yellowchef

I fault your dentist. My doctor(and dentist) ALWAYS inform me of whats covered by my plan...... or if he even thinks it may not be..... he will say "hey we cant give you nice new porcelain teeth but we can give you these hideous dentures...you choose"


Ive also worked in a medical office so we have STAFF specifically assigned to LOOK AT INSURANCE ALL DAMN DAY LONG AND THEY MAKE GOOD MONEY!!!! (trust me I consider $20something an hour good with weekends, holidays and half day fridays in some locations) so they should be able to come to you. It should go something like this

Dentist: "you need new fillings dude"
HogansGoat: "ok what shall we do?"
D: "you want them to look real or do you like some bling bling"
HG: "Real of course"
D: "ok lets find out what your policy may cover"
HG: "Swell, lets!"
D: "Im sorry Mr. HG, your policy only covers bling bling"
HG: "Ill take bilng bling for a $100, Dentist"

Trust me healthcare in this country blows.

now I do also blame your company/carrier for not explaining to you in more detail about "hey dumbass(not to imply that you're a dumbass), we're cheap.... dont go gettin some fancy dental work done"

Thats kinda like HMO's, who the hell thought up this HMO crap, Id rather go on medicaid/medicare...at least then I can go to someone besides Dr. JoBob who got his degree from Bumfuck University in Hicktown, KY. Really... HMOs are like evil.

__________________
the voices in your head are not real--but they still have some really great ideas.

always remeber you can choose your friends, but you can't choose your family. But..you CAN choose the insane asylum where you have them all put away!

flstf

Just out of curiosity did you know what the charge would be (whether to you or your insurance company) before you agreed to have the work done and did you compare it with other dentists?

I could be wrong but from what I understand the insurance companies try to control costs by getting healthcare providers to agree to charges for certain procedures. Otherwise a lot of people wouldn't care if the charge was $700 or $7000 as long as their insurance paid for it.

I'm not knocking you, I've been in the same boat, but just pointing out that without some sort of competition via price comparison, healthcare costs will continue to rise. The trend seems to be for more companies and healthcare insurance carriers to cover less and less so we will have to be better price comparison consumers. I haven't figured out a good way to do this yet with most healhcare related issues.

Ustwo

My water heater died the other day, I had to get a new one installed, it cost me $700 plus change, it happens.

You were a poor consumer. You had no idea what your coverage was, you didn't ask the most basic question 'is this covered by my insurance?' and now you want the government to step in?

You are a grown up now, you make grown up decisions, and ask grown up questions, don't expect the government to be your foster parent.

Your dentist maybe stupid, I know a few that are, but not for what he did to you, nor is he a crook.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

jorgelito

Dude, I feel your pain. I have TWO insurance plans (Aetna and MetLife). I spent hours looking up the charts, talking to customer service, talking to my own dentist, the receptionist - everyone involved. First let me say how delighted everyone was when I told them I had 2 insurance plans. I was assured that I would be completely covered and wouldn't have to pay a thing.

I went in to have my wisdom teeth pulled - just two - well, apparently, having 2 insurances is NOT enough. Each one paid $400 and I had to pay $400 myself. I think my premiums all added up to more than the procedure. I'm not really sure why I even had insurance. I should have just put all that money and "insured myself". At least I would have more control.

I don't think it's the dentists fault (and doctors etc). I think something is worng with the billing systems. Most of the providers (doctors, dentists) can't make heads or tails either and seem to be just as frustrated with the system as I (we) are.

Whoever figures out how to fix the system (healthcare industry, insurance etc) will probably win a Nobel Prize.

After all that, being responsible, doing my homework, research, deferring gratification so I can have adequate savings, I still get "shafted" (at least I think so) by the system. Is it really true that some joker who didn't save their money etc gets to have free healthcare provided? It seems the incentives (economically speaking) are backwards here. It seems like (not sure though) if I didn't have insurance, I could get treatment anyways with no cost to myself.....ah...

martinguerre

i think about bad health care as a market externality. ustwo, this is for you.

being a good consumer take time. most purchases, a little research will quickly identify some good options, and help a consumer select a good product at a fair price. however, if a system of pricing becomes confusing and byzantine in arcane details....

Then the consumer spends time, time that could be used to make income and be productive, and uses it to secure only minimal gains against a complex pricing scheme. Quality is not being assured by market pressure, since consumers often lack the information to make cogent decisions, and competition is restricted by the urgency which accompanies most health care decisions. Instead of accepting the cost of making health care easier to access and choose levels of care, the current system passes the cost on to the consumer. Lost time equals lost wages. Low and behold, we have ourselves a market inefficiency!

Where's your invisable hand now?

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Ustwo

I agree, ban insurance and bring back in market forces. Since almost none of my work is covered by insurance I won't be crying

BTW if they do not do there own due dilligance, I have no sympathy for them. In this case it was not emergency work, he went in blind and *gasp* has to pay for a service. Stop the presses.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

martinguerre

let's just go on the record. do you think that health care should be affordable? Do you think that a person who works full time, on average, should be able to see a doctor when they need to? Do the number of medical related bankrupcies trouble you?

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Mojo_PeiPei

I have a thought let us castrate(is that the correct sp and/or word) decapitate anybody working in the insurance world. Elect me and that is my promise. As a kid growing up with a single parent the premium on insurance has risen 1000% in the last 10 years, let me refer to my mothers pay raises... as suspected it doesn't calculate. That is health insurance, don't even get me started on car insurance.

No coverage is completely legit, whether it be Canooks universal, or American mercinary. However, I don't think people should be left out to dry as a result of medical necessity or anything relating. Therefore my conclusion is simple...

Let us drop boots in the ass of any malpractice ambulance chasing lawyers who crucify the joe six pack premiums. Let us drop boots in the dumb asses of young 21- males (or females) who drive up my costs inspite the fact I have no moving violations or accidents.

Further more both the state and federal government suck complete pecker. My state is more in favor of busting the chops of some smokers (who btw pay a shit load of taxes here in this fairly liberal state) then letting a young citizen (fully tax paying with my job Fed income/Soc sec/medicare/state... benefits I am not now, nor will ever be able for) get affordable grants and loans for public collegiate schooling (14%+ increases for 5+ years, get serious).

It's not just health care, it comes down to insurance. Then you start talking about money and necessity. THen you start ranting about how the government sucks ass, and how you want to drop a boot in it's ass.

Which concludes my post.

/end this rant. sorry

__________________
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flstf

I'll take a shot at these if you don't mind. Although I am just a consumer and not in the business so Ustwo will probably have a better perspective.

The easy answer to this is of course yes. but it does not seem to be that simple. Healthcare like national defense is loaded with exhorbitant costs. I am sure that when Boeing charges the government $800 for a screwdriver or when a hospital charges us $125 for a box of tissues that they can justify these charges on paper and show that with overhead etc.. that's the real cost to them. Since national defense is a necessity it is provided by the government and I am beginning to think that perhaps healthcare should be considered a necessity as well.

Again the easy answer is yes. I am concerned that many people may be going to the doctor and using prescription drugs, etc.. much more than is necessary. I have no data to back it up but do we really need to spend over $200 billion each year on drugs? I see all the commercials for viagra, wellbuten, anti-reflux, etc..and wonder if we are not going overboard.

This one troubles me the most. If you are very wealthy or very poor you will probably be alright. But the working poor and middle class are just one illness or injury away from financial ruin. I know several middle class people with what they thought was good insurance who have been devastated by hospital bills. The fact that they were not working does not keep the hospital from using collection agencies to get the house equity, cars, bank accounts etc... Insurance only covers so much. It is troubling to realize that everything you worked and saved for over the years can be gone with one long illness or injury.

Ustwo

let's just go on the record. do you think that health care should be affordable?

Define affordable and I'm serious about that.

Do you think that a person who works full time, on average, should be able to see a doctor when they need to?

You are really asking the same question. Saying works full time is being used to invoke sympathy for the low paid worker, but what you are asking is 'if they work full time should they be able to afford health care' and the answer is it depends on how you define affordable.

Do the number of medical related bankrupcies trouble you?

Not any more than the number of credit card related bankruptcies.

Now that being said I think hospitalized health care is often well overpriced, but its due to a lack of market forces being employed. Socialized systems just suck, and while they may sound good to those who are lazy or uneducated, they cost working people more than private insurance in the US (of course its taken out of taxes so you don't write a check) and deliver inferior care. We can have that debate again if you like but its not the point really. I'm all for health savings accounts with pre-tax dollars and the like, but please liberals don't destroy the health care system in this country. Its results that matter not intent.

As a side note, in 2010 the first wave of baby boomers turn 65, 75 million of them or so. Do you think the government can AFFORD to pay for that kind of health care and do you think it will be of high quality?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

martinguerre

oh, the sophistry. apparently, i'm lazy or uneducated, and possibly a red. good to know. have i mentioned how much i really appriciate your sig line? 'cause i do.

define affordable??? That's what the example of the full time worker was for, to provide a framework for the previous question. Thus, a review, though i hardly think it's necessary. Average (the mean, the midpoint of a sum total, typical or representative), full time (40+ hours of week, 52 weeks/year) worker (person employed by a business, or in entreprenurial enterprise) should be able (imperative affirmative declaration) afford (provide funds necessary, pay for, possess fiscal resources for) health care (the practice of medicine, dentistry, psychology) when necessary (needed, life supporting, required for function or existance).

Evoke sympathy? Only if it needs invoking. As i considered a life in ministry, one of my big obstacles was knowing if i would have enough insurance coverage to have my children see a doctor when they needed to. My salary would be pegged to "similar professions" such as nursing, teaching, or social workers.

Should health care be affordable is not a trick question. I'm trying to elict your philosophy of health care as a good. should it soley be determined by market forces? if a person is without the economic means to procure life saving treatment, should doctors be able to refuse care? should there be a credit card reader in ambulances? does working joe or jane have the means to bring their child to a doctor when they fall ill?

I could keep asking...but you already have the point. if i were you, i wouldn't want to answer that question, either. But it's kind of on the table. So what's your response?

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

flstf

Ustwo

Maybe market forces could work for elective things like dentistry or routine doctor visits etc.. Although I have had a difficult time comparison shopping for dentists so far. Just out of curiosity do you get a lot of people getting comparison pricing from you? Most of the people I talk to only care if the dental work is covered on their insurance and do not care what the overall charge is unless they have to pay.

I cannot imagine how we can change the hospital industry to be more competitive though. Maybe if there were a few dozen hospitals around and when the paramedics come after you call 911 after an accident you could have a card on you that says take me to XYZ hospital because you have pre-price shopped them already or something. But the real world does not work this way, there are only a few hospitals around most areas (only one in my area). How in the world can we make them more competitive?

Also, I don't think that everyone who is advocating socialized systems are lazy and uneducated. Some of us do not know much about hospital systems and from a consumer standpoint think the present system is out of control. Other than insurance companies getting doctors and hospitals to fix rates for certain procedures there does not seem to be much cost control. Having insurance companies determine rates does not seem like the way to go but from what little I know that seems to be the case today.

BigBen

Let the Canadian with armour-plated underwear step into the debate:

I understand your collective frustration about insurance companies. What I appreciate the most was the quote regarding the market inefficiencies, and unavoidable externalities that accompany Healthcare.
How are you to know that the hip replacement you purchased is the best one, or in the economic sense "The Most Efficient"?

You only have two hips. You can only purchase two new ones.
Your hips are unlike another consumers. They may have better or worse hips than you. In this case, no two consumers are the same.
The person performing the hip replacement needs a vast array of instruments, tools, and personnel to assist.
Any number of things can go wrong, and on any given day there are risks involved.

Look what an insurance company brings to the table:

People are risk averse; They want to buy that risk away, and are willing to pay a premium for that service. Medical care can be very expensive, and the costs can be quickly prohibitive when a serious illness is involved. The chances are slim that at any given time you will fall sick. Notice that insurance fits in perfectly here! You pay a fee to avoid the instance where you will be hit with a large penalty.

Hold on.

Doesn't the government require you to have driver's insurance? Isn't there a fine if you get caught driving without insurance? Why is that? Because the risk to the general public is high if you get into an accident and cannot pay for the damage you do.

Hmmm.

If healthcare is a for-profit private industry, why isn't police services, of fire departments?


Hmmm.

What if all of the insurance companies were suddenly gone? What if the government paid the wages and costs associated with health care? The government could capture the profits of private health providers and insurance companies, and take that money and put it back into healthcare. Isn't health insurance just another tax? Aren't you paying someone for the pleasure of having a public service available to you whan you need it? When your employer gives you health insurance coverage as part of your employment contract, is that not just like another corporate tax?

Hmmmm. As a Liberal, I don't mind government being involved in the economy, and providing several services to all of its citizens, whether they can afford to purchase them privately or not. I see the public good that occurs when EVERYONE is covered.

Remember, in order for there to be a good market, the following rules need to be met:

1. Atomicity: There are a large number of small producers and consumers on a given market, each so small that its actions have no significant impact on others. Firms are price takers, meaning that the market sets the price that they must choose.
2. Homogeneity: Goods and services are perfect substitutes; that is, there is no product differentiation.
3. Perfect and Complete information: All firms and consumers know the prices set by all firms.
4. Equal access: All firms have access to production technologies, and resources (including information) are perfectly mobile.
5. Free entry: Any firm may enter or exit the market as it wishes. (See Barriers to entry).
(link here, wikipedia)

Now, this really doesn't exist (besides agriculture, and there are very good arguments against that) except for an academics scratchpad.

Would you privatize public order? Would the uninsured go without police protection and be banished into a lawless abyss?
Would you privatize municipal services, and only insured people would be allowed to drive on the roads, and walk in lit areas?

I cannot understand why people don't want everyone to have access to Universal Healthcare.

Everyone dies; Everyone gets sick; Everyone will need health services at some point in their lives. You were born in a hospital, and chances are you will die in one.

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

Ustwo

If you want other people to pick up your health care bill you are lazy, period, you want others to work for you without giving anything in return. You want more from the system then you put in. Its being lazy. And I’m glad you like the sig, now lighten up again Francis.

You don’t seem to get the point, so I’ll be clear. If all of your income beyond living expenses went to health care, would it be ‘affordable’? Yes you had the money, so could you afford it? When people say affordable what they are often saying isn’t ‘can I pay for it’ but ‘can I pay for it without it changing my lifestyle’.

We all make choices in life, why should others pay for yours if your lifestyle can not be supported by your income? Fifty percent of all health care in this country is already funded by the government, I don’t see untreated disease in the streets like I have seen in other countries, SOMETHING must be working right, even for ministers kids.

I already covered affordable so I won’t go there again. What you are asking is ‘is health care a right’ and the answer is no. Nothing that makes someone else a slave should be a right. If you are forcing someone to give money/labor to support someone else, under penalty of law you have made them a slave and no one should have a 'right' to your labor, its the big mistake socialists all make, socialism makes us all into slaves. Should doctors be able to refuse care? Yes, doctors are people not machines, and you have no right to their time any more than I have a right to yours. Jane and Joe should have the means to bring a child to a doctor when they fall ill, I don’t know how Jane and Joe are, and no Jane and Joe in this country CAN’T take their child to see a doctor when they fall ill (I used to work in a free clinic for children). That being said Jane and Joe need to take a responsibility for having children INCLUDING a financial one.

You are not me, and I’m sure we both thank Jobu for that. Most medical procedures are not due to life threatening illness but are elective in that you won’t die if you don’t get them. They will often effect the quality of your life, but thats not an issue for socialized care. Anyone who thinks spending MORE of their tax money on less coverage then you can get with private insurance in the US is a smart move is uneducated in the system, period. I’m not going to sugar coat that one. People who need critical care in this country GET it already, but when I hear that a single mother in Canada making 38k a year pays $3346 a year for the health insurance that averages 19.9 weeks of wait time to SEE a doctor, and I hear people who don't have a clue about the system talk about how great it is and how we should force everyone on the US on it, I get a little steamed myself.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

BigBen

What if I want to subsidize other's care with my increased tax money? Am I extra hard working? Should people worship me and try to model my benevolent nature? What is the opposite of lazy? Because I want to work for others without getting anything in return; Thus, I am the opposite of your definition.

Oooooh! Can I use a tactic you use often? Define "All income beyond living expenses". Do retirement and entertainment expenses fall into this category? What I am trying to say is: Don't lose the forest for the trees here.

My statistics say that 73.2 percent of American healthcare is covered by government. Maybe we need to quote source after source in defence of our positions. Or maybe we can agree to leave stats out of this political debate.

BTW, I am comparing American healthcare with Canadian healthcare. The WTO and WHO did the same thing, and our population is healthier than yours, on average and all that. When you compare American healthcare to some third world country like Bangladesh or Sierra Leone, you are looking pretty good. That is the main reason why I hang out with fat, ugly people. I look skinny and beautiful by comparison.

Ooookay. You used the term slave there. I am wondering who will envoke the "Hitler Rule" of debate first.

Are taxes a method of 'enslaving' someone? How would your perfect system deal with people that cannot afford to pay for their necessary (and expensive) care?

I am not saying that Universal Healthcare is a Right. It is a social program that is a damn nice thing to have, and I would qualify it as a beautiful WANT. If everybody wants to make it work, than it can.

Do you pay taxes? Do you pay property taxes? Education taxes? Federal and state taxes? Municipal taxes? If you do, then you are already a "Slave". If you don't, then you are guilty of tax evasion and are a criminal. My point: You (america, and other civilized societies) have already created that system. I really don't know how to best defend your critique; it makes little sense to me. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if I have it right, you would be in favour of eliminating all taxes and having people fend for themselves. That is not a society.

Oh. Okay. But what if that shitty situation happens where Jane and Joe's little girl gets Leukemia, and they had that basic insurance that has high copays and the like? Their financial situation provided basic insurance, nothing more. Should the child be left out due to her parents inability to afford comprehensive coverage?

You worked in a free clinic for children? Didn't you see the good things that happened there? Wouldn't you like to see that service provided for everyone, regardless of age?

And that clinic was not free, it was funded by the government. AKA the beginning of Universal Healthcare.

Yes, it is very much an issue for socialized care. In healthcare economics, and in social economics in general, this is called a QUALY, or Quality Adjusted Life Year. It is the amount of time gained by every healthcare dollar spent.
If I spend $50,000 to take an MRI of Ustwo's brain to see if he has that rare cancer or if it is just migrane headaches he is suffereing from, every year after that of quality life I have provided him is factored into the cost equation. I could also innoculate 25,000 children with a Polio vaccine at 2 bucks a shot, giving them each their entire lives without the risk of Polio. Which is more important? That is not for me to decide, thank the lord, but if it were the LAST $50,000 on earth, the very bottom of the barrel, then I think people would debate about the efficiencies of healthcare. I would rather take an extra $50,000 from private healthcare provider's profits or insurance company salaries to give both you and the 25,000 kids a better shot.

I consider myself educated on the system. (notice that little dot next to the letter 'm' there? It is a period as well)

I don't like things that are sugar coated. They have been linked to type II diabetes.

You heard of a mother in Canada? Well, I heard of some pretty heinous shit about your system. That is why we are having this debate.

And a good steam is supposed to clear your pores and regulate your body tempurature. Very good for your health.


Last but not least: I have never torn someone's response apart, sentence by sentence before. It is a common tactic used by the people who frequent the Tilted Politics board, and I think it is a tactic that actually DISCOURAGES debate. I thought I would give it a try, because there were many things in Ustwo's post that I wanted to address.
It made me feel dirty, and less of a person. I don't like the way it looks when I previewed my post. It is almost like that person's thoughts are jumbled up in my own, and I leave it to the reader to decypher the text and argument.

I will also never quote source after source in defence of my position. The statistics battle has long been lost on both sides, and my academic career spent considerable time in showing that numbers can be manipulated for any purpose. I want to debate political philosophy, and delve into the topic of why opponents of Universal Healthcare are opposed to it. I don't want to compare apples and apples, because a Granny Smith apple tastes different than a MacIntosh. The onus is on the reader to become informed on the environment and the numes involved.

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

samcol

You made great points about the dangers of socialized healthcare and I also agree that it's not a right.

samcol

Because I don't want to pay for someone's expensive treatment due to a high risk behavior like smoking, drinking, overeating, and general laziness. Why should I have to pay for someone's insulin shots because they decided to eat a bag of donuts for breakfast and then have a snickers and a coke for lunch? Do you want to pay for my heart surgery because I smoked a pack a day for 20 years (not that I smoke)? How about spending millions a year on AIDS treatments that are totally preventable in the vast majority of the cases. Do we get to pick up the tab on that too?

Likewise, I don't like the idea of forcing someone to quit smoking, or quit eating fast food because we live under a socialized healthcare system. Even though it's a bad choice it's your right to make that choice. Socialized healthcare limits freedom.

Also, I can't buy into a health care system that concentrates more energy on curing symptoms and surviving diseases rather than prevention or curing the disease completely. I also belive that I do not need a doctor to prescribe a drug for me even if it's not approved by the FDA. The FDA is just a mafia front group for the drug companies to keep their control on the industry.

Ustwo

Thats called charity, when its not forced. I see no point to this response, and the snide bit about worshiping you shows you are still testy that someone said something bad about Canada. Odds are there is no point reading beyond this, but its early, I just put my son to bed for the night, my wife is at a concert, and I’m going to relax for half an hour or so before I start my reading for tonight, so I may as well keep reading..


The point should have been obvious, most people who say they can not ‘afford’ health care are really saying ‘I do not wish to pay for health care/insurance, I’d rather spend it on something else.’ If you really can’t afford health care, then it is in fact provided for you.


I read 50 percent, it may well BE 73.2 percent, it doesn’t change the point that the poor are in fact covered by the government. You should also ask yourself if its fair to compare the U.S. with Canada in terms of ‘healthy’ when we are talking about vastly different climates, peoples, and lifestyle. The US population is also older, and has more immigrants. Now if they compared it to rural minisota then perhaps we can talk about the WHO.


We have to mention Hitler first.

Freedom isn’t fair, ever. You can be a fair people or a free people, you can’t be both equally. Initially there should have been no forced transfer of wealth in order to pay for others, thats what charity and families are for, but now we have the entitlement classes and entitlement mentality to deal with and politically that will not go away until the next world wide depression. As such, those who are inept or incapable of providing for themselves would be covered as they currently are, but adding everyone to that roll is just asking for a disaster long term.

Its going broke in Canada right now, around .22 of every dollar earned is taken by taxes specifically for health care. Wait times are long, and getting longer, you have people who take medical holidays to get procedures done, and recently Canadians finally got the right to see private health care (which was illegal) unless somehow that Supreme Court ruling has been circumvented some how. Funny how you have to fight for the right to pay double (once for the national plan and then for the private one). Is this because Canadians don’t want it to work?


Taxes themselves don’t make you a slave. Being taxed and having that money given over to someone else just because they ‘need’ it does. When the western world got into the redistribution of wealth game in the 20th century, things started to go down hill. I think we are over taxed, I think most of it is a waste of money, and taxes should go for nothing beyond infrastructure, maintaining law, and national security. We may have had the best intentions with social programs, but they all tend to become entitlement monsters which never really solve the problem, and in some cases make it far worse.

http://www.leukaemia.com/leukaemia-f.../web/index.asp


No it was pretty lousy. Horrible working environment. Sometimes it was great and you helped someone out, but more often then not the parents wouldn’t bother to return for treatment for their kid. VERY often you would see the system abusers come in. They had a nicer wardrobe then I owned, gold jewelry, cellphones, the works, and a blue card from child services for their kid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
It doesn’t work that way, and MRI’s are a bitch to get in Canada but I hear they are working on improving at least that aspect since its so often cited as awful. You are arguing for rationed health care, which is great unless you have the cancer. Sooner or later you run out of money, and with governments I think you should realize its sooner rather than later. Government and efficient with money are NOT analogies. More like Government is to Money Efficiency as a blind man is to skeet shooting.

Quote:

At least you don’t deny the tax burden or the wait times.

It makes it harder to debate but it also makes it take less time to respond. We only have so much time to dedicate to this, at least I know my time is limited, in fact I’ve already given more time to this than I hoped.

I also have left out sources because if you really want to find them its an easy goggle and I think they do more to stifle debate than back it up. If someone wants to call out a source they can be provided (such as the tax burden or the wait times) but I think most people should be able to use google, there is no point in having more source than debate. I did notice your tone changed from pretty 'snippy' to start, to more rationed later on. I'll keep my snippyness in my first replies just to be fair

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skier

Isn't your guys current system serving the same function as universal health care, albeit being more complex and expensive?

The way it looks to me is that you have two major systems that pay for your healthcare at the same time, but are in contradiction with each other. One looks for ways to avoid paying for those who are (mostly) able to pay- insurance. The other looks for ways to pay for those who cannot- government programs. Paperwork between insurance companies, their clients, and the government alone must be immense. And you are expected to pay for both.

The concepts of universal health care and life insurance are pretty damn close. You and everyone else in the system pays a comparatively small sum to INSURE themselves in case a medical problem comes up, which is low risk but high cost. You keep saying how universal health care is so much more expensive than the your U.S. solution, but I do not see how it is possible. We have the same health problems, and our quality of life is roughly equal. The theory behind both systems is at the most basic level the same except one is unified and the other fragmented and divided six ways from sunday.

How can you not see that a unified, country-wide system that covers everybody is more efficient than 1000's of insurance companies, one large government system, independant hospitals, private practices, etc. that try to work together despite having different goals and motivations? Not to mention each of these portions have different organization systems, broken communications between them, seperate billing, lack of accountability, and that even those who work in the industry often become confused about who pays what.

Also, there are many cases where your insurance system "fails" it's clients, forcing them to pay for treatment which is seen as a success because they now can post a higher profit, chasing after the almighty dollar. So not only are you paying insurance and taxes against the chance you may become expensively ill, but in the end it might not even work, bankrupting you and your family, forcing you to change your entire life because of a twist of bad luck you should, and thought you were well prepared for.

I have a lot of faith in universal health care, and it's never let me down, or anyone I know down. Everyone I talk to believes in it, and would defend it if challenged. Nobody I know thinks it broken, and it's hard to think so many americans believe it to be a shoddy system when it does so well.

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Ustwo

I am by no means arguing that the US system is good as is. There are flaws.

I will argue that

How can you not see that a unified, country-wide system that covers everybody is more efficient than 1000's of insurance companies, one large government system, independant hospitals, private practices, etc. that try to work together despite having different goals and motivations?


is naive.

On paper sure it sounds like it would work, but many things that work on paper do not work in the real world. Just think of all the problems that happen when you take a profit motive out of the system, and replace it with a gigantic beuocracy (next window please). I think people are far more likely to be efficient with their own money than a government is ever going to be.

On a side note the US health care system has never let me down, never let anyone I know down, never let my family down.

Also one thing you can do these days is pay for medical with pretax dollars, making our costs even lower. Of course we need to make sure we take the time and effort to do it instead of forcing everyone into the government program.

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BigBen

We don't force anyone to make healthy choices. Therefore, we do not limit freedom.

As far as the whole treating symptoms instead of preventing the disease, the NHS in Britain is under a capitation system. They give a doc x number of dollars for x number of population. The doctor (or group of doctors) then choose how to spend their time to best take care of the population. This method is supposed to pivot attention to the root causes of disease and create better health. The doctors make house calls because it is cheaper for them than if a patient presents in a casualty ward.

That system has its own problems, believe you me, but again, it goes to show that there are different ways of looking at the problem.

I don't know what to say about the FDA. It has historical significance around the "Snake Oil" industry, where fantastic claims about the efficacy of medicines were marketed without scientific proof. The government needed to step in and prevent hucksters from selling poison as a cure. If you want to buy drugs that have not been approved by the FDA, I am questioning your logic. You want to consume something that has not been tested using the scientific method? Are you being scammed about the sensational headlines about the drugs that were found to be less-than-claimed effective?

Where you and I truly differ is in your first statement. I am perfectly happy and content in providing people comprehensive healthcare. I do not make judgements about the choices they made to wind up in that physical condition. That is not my place. If you smoked 4 packs a day, drank until your liver quit, and ate refined sugars until diabetes set in, I want to be there to hold the door open for you when you enter a hospital. I want to live in a society that performs that service. I would have trouble knowing that there was something I could have done (i.e. more taxes out of my pocket) to give that poor person the best medical care we can.

I also want to have social programs in place that promote healthy lifestyles.
I also want to have social programs in place that help the environment.
I also want to have social programs in place that give opportunities for all people to get an education.
I also want to have social programs in place that prevent abuse to children.
I also want to have social programs in place that achieve scientific excellence.


Maybe I am a socialist. When someone calls me that, I don't take it as an insult.

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silent_jay

The Canadian system has never let me down, never let anyone I know down, and never let my family down, what's your point?

I can't speak for the US system as I have no experience with it, but you seem to like to speak of the Canadian system yet probably have no experience with it. It's our system, it works for us, you don't like it, oh well, don't like it, don't use it.

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Charlatan

One thing that seems to get overlooked when talking about the Canadian system is that it isn't just a single-customer system. Each of the 10 provinces sets it's own policy.

One would think that given the bureaucracy of such a sytem that it would be hugely expensive... it is, but it should be noted that it is 300% cheaper to run than the current US system.

The wait time issue is largely a myth. Yes, there are long wait times on elective surgery but if something is needed urgently it gets done (I know this from personal experience and from stats that I have read).

Samcol your take on not wishing to pay for other people is just about as clear an example as any that underscores the difference between Canada and the US.

The fact is, our system works. It costs less to run (on a per capita basis) and has us ranked at about 30 to the US at 37 in terms of healtcare systems around the world. The only other difference is that in Canada, everyone is covered, in the US there is a good portion who are not.

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Ustwo

My point was in respose to someone else who said that about the Canadian system, its about context

It works for you and as you say, you don't know any other. I thought sex with condoms was pretty good too at one point.

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raveneye

Is there any evidence that high-risk behaviors in a population increase the overall health care costs (more than a trivial amount)?

The other possibility is that they just lower the mean lifespan, and the costs that would have been paid (say) 10 years later are just paid 10 years sooner.

I haven't looked recently at the statistics, but isn't it true that, on average, something like 99% of a person's lifetime health costs are paid just before they die?

BigBen

I believe that the famous saying you are refering to is: The last six months of your life are the most expensive.

This is true because our society has not accepted the fact that the human body fails, and that everyone dies. To come to that point, you must accept that you are mortal, and every second on this earth is precious. This line of thinking takes work. It is hard. It causes pain. It smells bad and tastes worse.

It is easy to put off things for a later day.

When we look at the elderly or terminally ill, we see mortality that is unavoidable. We transpose our desires for more time, more resources into that situation, and therefore take heroic measures when palliative stages occur.

What kind of doctor would I be if I told every elderly patient "You are wearing out, and are going to die. I would accept that fact if I were you, and enjoy life. You don't need cancer treatment, you need a vacation and a big fat doobie."

What kind of doctor would I be if I told young patients the same thing? I would get my liscence pulled, very fast.

Instead, we play the "I'm going to live forever" game and research technologies that help us delay the inevitable. These technologies are expensive, and we gladly pay because of the pain and mess that we delay. It comes eventually, but we give ourselves time to adjust.

Yes, I am in a particularly philosophical mood today; I stubbed my toe when I got out of bed, spilled coffee on my last clean shirt and slept through my alarm clock.

I misplaced my ID badge and my MP3 player, and when fretting about where they might be I locked myself out of my idling vehicle.

Student Loans phoned to remind me that I had 9 years left to pay, and I feel like I am coming down with a cold. I looked at the calendar and realized that my next day off is Christmas Eve;

My lunch plans fell through, and it is just too much work to make alternative arrangements.

I am thinking that a philosophical approach is the best way to go today, because if I don't accept the current situation I am in deep trouble.

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dksuddeth

i don't know the numbers but I'm pretty sure that costs from cancer treatments (whether on terminal patients or not) due to smoking have raised health care costs considerably. You and I don't see it as nothing more than trivial because the our part of the premium may only rise $100 a year, but for a company with 1,000 employees on the benefits package that equals $100k.
Now, you multiply that by the number of companies that employ 1,000 or more and you're talking about alot of money.

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silent_jay

Do you actually have any experience with the Canadian system or do you just go by what you read and then consider it to be wrong or bad?

I imagine you don't know any other health care system than what you use in the US, so then how do you know ours is so 'bad' as you put it.

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pan6467

I love people who say they don't want to pay for smokers and drinkers health.

Truth be known the effects of both take YEARS to seriously harm the users. In the meantime, the taxes they pay keep individual state and local taxes down.

You really want to see your tax rates increase in HUGE amounts, stop living off the "sin taxes". Tell your state and community to do away with them and see how much you pay in taxes then. Or just have all the smokers buy that $1 pack of ciggies at Indian reservations, online and tax free shops.

So let's see, granted eventually it takes it's toll (so does beef, drinking from aluminum cans, living near high tension electrical lines, and so on), but by the time the smoker/ drinker needs the healthcare they have probably paid more in voluntary taxes than most people will ever pay on their income taxes.

Lottery tickets same thing, voluntary taxes that keep other peoples taxes down.

Plus, in the end you pay for their medical anyway, in higher premiums and tax money when they reach their maximums or have no insurance. But in the process you have enjoyed fully the benefits of those voluntary taxes.

Like I said, don't believe me, tell the government you don't want them to collect "sin taxes" anymore. Oh, yeah, the government can keep suing the tobacco companies and alcohol companies and say that money will only go for the healthcare/education of smokers/drinkers/etc..... which they did, but that just leads to bankrupting industries.

It's also the biggest hypocrisy in government, they try to tell you the harmful effects of smoking and drinking and in some cases lotteries.... yet they cannot survive without the tax monies.

I'm not advocating smoking, drinking, lottery playing.... those are individual choices. But I am tired of hearing how some don't want to pay for their healthcare after years of enjoying the tax benefits.

I don't drive fast and obey the laws, I don't want to pay for those people who drive like assholes and cause pileups. I don't feel I should pay for people who have strokes, colon cancer, and all those nasties one gets from eating too much beef, I don't want to pay for the healthcare of those who have high cholesterol because of milk, cheese and egg consumption, and so on.

I don't want to pay higher tuitions because of tax cuts to the rich and corporate welfare causing deficit spending. I don't want to watch government pay billions and billions to Haliburton for overcharging the military. I don't want my tax money to go places I disapprove of..... but that is the price of living in this country. Don't like it leave.

As the Right loves to point out life is unfair..... but they sure do love to bitch and cry when they have to make sacrifices everyone else does. Of course their sacrifices are so much more important than everyone else's, they love to tell others to live within their means as they watch their party deficit spend us into oblivion, they love to dictate how others should live but fuck you if you try to tell them..... what hypocrites.

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ScottKuma

So, if I get on Medicaid, am I one of the criminals you refer to?

I have a son who has multiple birth defects. I carry private health insurance, and they are doing their best to not pay for his treatment.

The hospital requires that my son have 8 hours per day of skilled nursing care before he comes home. My health insurance policy will pay for 30 days of said care, which we've already used. Now I am being asked to pay for that nursing. The ongoing cost for that is approximately double my annual salary, but is MUCH less (75% savings) than keeping Evan in the hospital.

Medicaid will cover Evan, but only after a "waiver slot" opens up for him, as we are outside the income limiits for Medicaid. So where does that leave us? Medicaid is making us wait...and won't tell us the waiting time period (but we have , the private insurance I've paid for dutifully over the past 15 years (and very rarely making a claim) won't pay for it, and I don't make enough to pay for it myself.

Insurance companies are great for small claims, but when you're REALLY sick, they just shunt you off on Medicaid, anyhow. As much as I'm against it, I am really starting to see a case for socialized medicine.

Private-market care would cost my family our house, and would leave Evan untreated...which would kill him.

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raveneye

That's basically what I'm saying . . . I think risky behavior contributes probably less than around 5% to the total healthcare costs. Of course the total is large so 5% could also be large, but the fact that it's a trivial proportion makes it a very small economic factor in any single person's decision on what kind of plan to support.

pan6467

My condolences, I wish the very best for you and your son.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

samcol

Did you only read the first line of my post? I was specifically talking about the criminal insurance companies and medicaid buerocrats. Yes your son should get treatment, you're paying health insurance and medicaid and sadly you're still not adequetly covered. Treatment rationing is an unfortunate effect of socialized healthcare. Do you think more legislation is going to fix this?

I'm sorry to hear about your circumstances, but you cannot look at a national healthcare plan on a case by case basis. You have to encapsulate the whole system and look at the macro economic consequences of a universal healthcare system. The more socialized healthcare becomes, the more rationing will come into affect.

dksuddeth

did you ignore the second part about the cost to the company on purpose to support your point or was it just plain oversight?

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pan6467

Now I have heard it all.

We have too much socialized medicine so that is why the insurance companies do all they can to not pay?????

I think it's called GREED and if you take out the private money grubbing insurance companies and run hospitals to TREAT illnesses and not as businesses we'll all be much better off.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

raveneye

No, I didn't ignore it, I acknowledged it ("Of course the total is large so 5% could also be large"). I'm probably missing something, feel free to explain

ScottKuma

All, sorry I went off. Apparently I read samcol's response as "paying FOR these criminals", when that wasn't what he said. *sigh* Emotionally charged issues sucketh.

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