Azrael

Many people feel that voting is our duty, however I have no such feelings. It all seems like a dilema to me, for one must pick the lesser of two evils. I have never voted in my life, and question if I ever will. Is it really that important ?
I live in western Canada, and Canada seems to be ruled by the east, would my vote even make a differnce ?

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Paq

canada has elections? wow...


seriously, though, i feel the same way as you, but then i realized that a voice in the long list of voices is not a statement of what 'power' you can exert over your government, what shape you can help form, what road you want the gov't to take, but it can let it be known that there is a voice out there that desires to be heard.

That, and voting normally takes ten minutes of my life. Being prepared to vote takes hours, but i enjoy that, it's just that actual voting takes about 10 minutes for me.

with that being said, not voting holds the same amount of power as voting. You simply choose to withhold your voice until there is a reason to put it out there.

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mandy

im sure that at this present moment in time there are so many reasons to have your "voice out there". if you do not vote you dont become part of the democracy of your country. Voting is your chance to say "i want to make a difference!" to stand up for what you believe in.

i know you most probably thinking that i'm talking a whole bunch of bull if you dont vote, YOU DONT HAVE A SAY!!!!

you cant say that you have a crappy government, you cant say anything about anything! voting is a right and a privilage one that could and SHOULD be excercised!

Xazy

As a republican in a democratic state and city, it does not matter what I vote. Yes I vote every time (and never party lines). But the truth is voting at times for me is a pointless gesture. I have yet to miss an election since I was able to vote, but I do not judge if you do or do not vote.

It just means to me, you are not really in a position to complain if you did not vote.

samcol

I pretty much agree that voting isn't really worth it as long as we have the lesser of two evils. Voting is used as kind of like this catch all term that makes people feel like they have some kind of voice. Do your 10 min every four years and go back to sleep. Then if you don't vote the people that do will say you have no right to complain when things go wrong. YEAH RIGHT. People who don't vote have every right to complain in America, and it is protected by the real power to change government which is the ability to protest and petition the government. That's where the real change happens.

Paq

complaining about the gov't is as american as apple pie and yes, more things get done from protests and petitions than from actual pull the lever voting. as a guy in nyc once said about the futility of the vote: "Women didn't exactly vote to get the right to vote, they protested, marched, did everything possible, but they weren't exactly given that right by going into a polling station and pulling a lever, you gotta get out and do something."

that part always stuck with me

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Willravel

The problem with the lesser of two evils is obviously you have to vote for evil. Who wants to vote for evil? Believe it or not, NOT voting sends a message. Remember it only sends a serious message if you register, and then don't vote. Then they start to wonder why you aren't voting. Otherwise they just see you as lazy. Not that there's anythiung wrong with being lazy.

P. Diddy told us to 'vote or die'. Not everyone voted, no one died of not voting. Therefore, P. Diddy is not an accurate source for information on either voting or fatalities related to voting. Don't be bullied into voting.

politicophile

I find it heartening that so many people who are unable to see the differences between Republicans and Democrats are not interested in voting. Seriously, Bush/Kerry: the lesser of two evils? That is a complete misapplication of the word "evil", as neither of those men even approach being evil. Voting is about looking at the ideological positions of two opposing candidates and deciding which platform is most appealing to you. I hear complaints in these forums on occasion about how we must choose between professional politicians in most elections. But who would you prefer to run: some naive outsider who would leave the whitehouse after four years with a broken heart and a record of failures? I'm looking for a leader with the prior experience that assures that he/she has a realistic understanding of the political process.

I also take great pride in doing what I can to get the right people elected to office. Voting is an important part of, but not the only component of, that effort. I will close by urging you all to continue to not vote: it makes every ballot I cast more powerful.

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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

feelgood

Is it wrong to ignore elections? No, it's my right to do so. It's even my right to vote in it and I can choose to vote or not to vote.

Personally, elections in the recent years in Canada is rather pointless for us Westerns as we already know that the domination of Eastern Canada will out voice us. Kinda same as your typical american voter when deciding on Democrats vs Republicans.

Ps: Some post are stating that there's only Democrats and Republican in the US elections, what ever happened to the green?

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Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

Jinn

The Green Party is dying, at least here in the States. 2.7% of popular vote in 2000, less than 1% in 2004... at least thats what some random about.com article said..

As for ignoring elections; I did it in 2004... not purposely, but accidentally. I wasn't able to register in time because my application got "lost" the first time. At any rate, I feel like I'm going to get bent over either way and probably wouldn't have voted...

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

islandflea

Personally, I cherish having the right to choose (vote for) persons (politicians) who share my desire... re: how to improve/make sustainable our country.

I enjoy seeking out persons demonstrating logical thought processes/actions/ideas that I believe are healty for you and I (topics including but not limited to...environment/world relations/science/ethics/religion/money...).

By helping select the direction, voting, (in even the smallest manner) in which specific persons, aka: Leaders/politicians take this country...I have found a voice. To me, being voiceless is being invisible.

If you have no opinion as to the direction our country travels, fine. I am happy to choose for you...with humblest gratitude. If you have a differing opinion, fine...lets discuss the differences and learn from oposing sides (there is always at least a bit of truth on each side of an argument, no?)

Sorry, I just see sooo many (esp young persons) refuse to take an active interest in the direction the world spins. I dont always know who is the best leader but...

I have learned a bit from history I dont wish us to repeat!

samcol

Well if a person thinks that larger more inefficient government is evil, I don't know how you couldn't see them as the lesser of two evils. Or if you oppose the war how could either of them not be evil. I think you are kinda of blinded by the two party system as you pointed out by saying Voting should be about more than just 2 candidates or parties. You can't see how similar the two parties are because you limit yourself to this two party perspective. Take a more peripheral view of politics and you might see just how similar they really are.

Yakk

1.75$ per year.

Every vote a party gets in Canada gives them 1.75$ in federal funding every year. For a 4 year cycle, that's 7$ to the party of your choice.

So it doesn't matter if your candidate has no chance of winning. You don't have to vote for the lesser of two evils. You can pick a party you agree with, or you think should have more say -- be it the greens, the libertarians, the NDP, the liberals, the conservatives, or the MJ party.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Paq

....wait a sec
so in canada, a political party gets $1.75 per year for budget for every vote they get?

in that case, hell, just get OTHER people to not vote

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flstf

Until "none of the above" appears on the ballot, not voting is one way to say it. My wife comes from a communist country where voting was required and they had almost 100% turnout to vote for one of the party puppets. Only those opposed to the hypocracy would protest by not taking part in the bogus elections.

Some of us think that voting for one of the professional polititians put forth by the Democrat/Republican party is really no choice either. Voting for one of the smaller party candidates is sometimes an option, but it really makes little difference since the fix is in. Without influence to peddle for campaign contributions, third parties do not have much of a chance.

Grasshopper Green

While I tend to encourage people to get out and vote, I don't think that ignoring elections is wrong. If you don't take the time to get to know the politicians and their stance on issues, then there really is no point in voting anyway, IMO. Blind voting or just voting for the hell of it is worse than not voting.

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Formerly Medusa

OPgary

I try to vote every election. Many are levy ballots that I generally vote against. But I am interested in who gets elected to represent me at state and federal levels.

Yakk

I do not understand.

It is 1.75$ per vote, or roughly 1/30,000 of the nation's GDP, being directed as support in order to help defend democracy against distortion via special interest money.

It makes me want to encourage people to vote, so their opinion has a chance to help fund an honest battle of ideas.

Why does it make you want to discourage people to vote?

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Marvelous Marv

I always vote.

If there's an absolute shitwad in office lining his or her pockets (not all that uncommon), to refrain from voting sends a message that you don't mind that sort of conduct.

Willravel

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you, Marv. I think 51% of a populus voting for someone sends a message that we don't mind their conduct. Not voting can send a message that some aren't wiling to vote for the lesser of two evils. That's important because it forces the candidates to change to get the voters to come back. If, eventually, we have 8 people voting for president (even after a riviting 'Vote or Die' campaign by P. Diddy), that president won't have any real support. Without support, an elected official is useless.

politicophile

Maybe I'm alone here, but I've never encountered a situation where I didn't have at least a small preference for one candidate over the other(s). I feel as though voting for the "lesser of two evils" is a civic duty if you see a difference between the candidates, desipte the fact that a totally different candidate would be preferable. At some point, reality should compell you to go into damage control mode and try to get the least harmful candidate elected.

It has been said above that voting "none of the above" forces the politicians to change. This seems not to be possible, however, because these voters do not give specifics about whay parts of the candidates' platforms they find distastful. If the politicians are totally unaware of how they would need to change in order to placate the null-voters, they certainly will not do so.

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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

ryfo

I'm in Australia and here if you dont vote you get fined. The local council fines you for not voting in local elections, the state fines you for not voting in state elections and the federal govenment fines you for not voting in the federal election. But we do live in a democratic society(just one without the right not to vote)

Paq

....wow....maybe this is the southern US culture coming out in me, but i would definitely be up in arms about that....

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cyrnel

I don't believe ignoring elections/ballots does any good whatsoever except maybe the time saved. A no show means no message sent. The people who do vote (for whatever cause with whatever motivations) control what power remains.

A question: What if you vote, but don't choose any candidates? I mean you register and show up, but only vote where you believe in a choice. I believe this is common for lower offices and ballot measures where choices may be obscure. How is it counted for major races? Is it just a "none of the above"? I've never seen a turnout number broken down by ballot items but the stats might be interesting.

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There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

Willravel

But when we support a platform that is the lesser of two evils, we are supporting an evil. I'm fairly sure that more than 50% of the American people disagree with the war in Iraq. Did we have a candidate of the two parties (with a freaking chance) that wanted to simply pull out? Nope. G.W. obviously wants it to continue in the same fashion he established it. Kerry wanted to pull out after years. And we all know if it isn't an ass or an elephant, it isn't worth voting for.

Politicans are aware. They pander to the lesser demands to support their own (usually selfish) agendas.

highthief

You realize if you had 85% voter turnout in the West and we still got stuck with 50% turnout in the East, your vote would matter a lot more?

People who don't vote have no right to complain about the way elections turnout, IMO. Nothing personal.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

meembo

I think some people are somehow obliged to defend "not voting" mostly because it's a choice. There is no personal cost or consequence to ignoring a civic right AND duty. It's too cool to take the contrary position to what makes absolute sense in our democracy. How can one responsibly complain about their political landscape and yet do nothing about it? Wasting a vote is a stupid and lazy thing to do, IMO. What's more, some people in this forum speak as though there is a vote only once every four years. Once you become more involved with society, you will see many elections on the local and state and federal levels in which to vote, as well. This is how most of the democracy around you functions -- on the local levels.

I hear many people saying that their individual vote does not matter -- Well, DUH, as my 12 year old says. Of course it doesn't. But like a great number of pro-active and selfless acts in our democracy and our culture, it's the momentum of the doing the right thing, often for the sake of others, that matters. Any good deed I do today will likely not change the course of the world by itself. It's the collection of good people doing the right thing that matters, that changes things for the better. Same with voting (and any other form of civic involvement). It's only the people who bother to sacrifice time and effort that make a difference politically, and they have to do it together. Democracies are certainly no guarantee that your way is the right way or the preferred way of society, but being involved in a democracy makes you more powerful and more informed that standing ignorantly on the sidelines of democracy, that's for sure.

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less I say, smarter I am

flstf

Voting on local issues like school bonds etc, makes sense. But there really is no democracy in selecting our representatives when the only viable choice is the Democrat/Republican candidate. They have all the special interest money and smaller parties do not have a chance. The elections are rigged in favor of those with influence to sell.

Willravel

They might not have the right in your mind (your call), but they have the legal right.
I think the operative question is: is it the right thing to vote for someone who doesn't represent your interests, even if his interests lie slightly closer to your that the other candidate? It's not a simple question. If you do choose to vote for the lesser of the two evils, you will be actively taking a role in preventing the worse evil from taking power. That's noble. It's prossibly even right. But. If you choose to support the lesser evil to spite the greater evil, you're still supporting an evil in the end. Can the ends justify the means? I suppose that depends on the situation, but on the whole, I'd say no.

Another thought that occours to me is the fact that voting is one of many ways to be involved in the democratic process. When I turned 18 I had already been in a number of protests and rallys. I didn't vote until I was 21. Was I involved in the democratic process before I was 21? Of course. I just didn't vote. I am saying that voting, while important to a democracy, is not the only avenue of involvement or support.
Bingo. The two party system is not a democracy (in the spirit of what a democracy is supposed to be), espically the one we are stuck in.

highthief

"They might not have the right in your mind (your call), but they have the legal right"

Well, d'uh!



It's a figure of speech, but it does express how I feel. every damn election I get up off my ass and go vote. I have no patience for the opinions people who can't be bothered and who want to cry about it afterwards.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Willravel

So all people who don't vote are just being lazy? The people who don't vote 'can't be bothered' by voting? Are you sure?! I happen to know several people who won't vote unless the politician or law or measure matches with their political views completly. They rarely vote, as you can probably guess. Is that really so irresponsible and lazy? Or is it their civic duty to only choose people and laws that represent their views?

I didn't vote for Kerry, and I didn't vote for Bush. I voted Libertarian. When Gore went up against Bush, many of my friends didn't vote because neither of them were (or are) good candidates for president. If Cheny runs against Hillary in 2008, and there are no decent indipentants running, I WON'T VOTE FOR PRESIDENT. Yes, that's right. I'll forego voting as a statement of disgust at the present dual party system that takes advantage of voters. I think that's why a lot of people ignore elections. They've been either ignored or controlled for their entire voting lives. Politicians make promises to pull in votes, and when they take office they push their own adgendas. Votes for liars are worse than not voting.

highthief

You can spoil a ballot, vote indy, or in some places write in. There is always an option - yeah, I think most people who don't vote generally A) can't be bothered, or B) are too ill informed to make a decision. Even if you are travelling, there are advance polls or votes at foreign consulates for those abroad. I understand when shut ins and the truly ill don't vote. But you know, 95% of my company's workforce shows up on any given day (vacations aside) and they get 3 hours off to go vote if needed. All those people are obviously healthy enough to go vote and smart enough to hold down a job.

There is NEVER going to be a candidate who precisely matches your own views unless you are that candidate. But, you can look carefully at what is on offer and make a decision and a statement about what is important to you. Personally, I've voted in this country - at the provincial and federal levels - for the Conservatives, the Liberals, the Green Party and once, when dissatisfied with all the usual options, the Lemon Party (a "joke" party in Quebec).

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flstf

Here in the states the government is run by the Democrat/Republicans and they set the rules. I guess it is only natural that over time they would create a monopoly for themselves and make it almost impossible for anyone else to get elected. I vote most times until recently but really do not feel obligated to take part in the bogus elections.

Like in the communist countries where 100% of the people would show up to vote for one of the party puppets, what's the point? The communist governments wanted a large turnout to show the world that they were legitimate.

meembo

We are all liars and thieves to some degree, aren't we? (Those without sin, throw the first stone.) I don't think I'm a better person than Bush or Kerry based on what I know about each of them -- all from a great distance -- but I think my values mean more than the President's. So what? Denigrating people as liars or otherwise still doesn't excuse ignoring the right to contribute to society vis a vis a vote. A lesser evil is less evil to suffer, at the very least.

I think that throwing away the only influence you might have on a particular date in a democracy is the worst thing you can do. You have to get away from the idea that ANYTHING you do individuallyfor the sake of a democracy (at least as far as voting goes) is meaningful. Very few individual votes are meaningful, but the accumulated voices of all the voters decides the outcome. Doing nothing when faced with a choice is resignation and rejection of your rights in a democracy. Not voting is not a principle. I can't respect the idea of shirking social responsibility, especially in a free country where elections are so well supported for the masses. Grow up, get up, and vote. Don't "elect" to be a drag on society by not participating in the most fundamental right of a democracy.

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less I say, smarter I am

Willravel

Politicians specifically make promises to the public that they know will win votes, despite the fact they have no interest in following up. How do you vote for someone who decieves you for your support?Let me give you a silly example. Let's say you want to go buy a car. Most car salespeople get commission, in other words they want to sell as much as possible. "Hello", you say, "I'd like an SUV with A/C, power steering, anti lock bakes, a limited slip differential, cruise control, and more than 60 hp per liter. Do you have anything like that?" Now this salesperson, knowing what he has- and what you want takes you up to a crappy SUV. He says, "This SUV has everything you're looking for, and it has everything else, too!!" You buy the car because someone you trust with your investment has told you it is what you're looking for. You get the car home, after you've paid and their are no refunds, only to find the car has no A/C, power steering, etc. Outraged, you go back to the car lot. "I was lied to about this SUV!" you shout at the manager. The manager smiles and calmly replies, "You could have gotten a worse SUV." You notice an SUV on fire in the corner of the lot. "Yes, that is worse, but I'd like to honestly know all my options before I buy. Are their any other models?" The manager shows you the back lot. "These cars have everything you were looking for, but almost no one buys them and we make very little profit from them, so we kept them from your view." You learn over a time to deal with the crappy SUV they sold you and vow you won't make the same mistake again, as you complain constantly about the POS. The SUV finally konks out and you go back, only to get screwed again.

I realize that isn't a perfect comparison, but I hope it illustrates how I feel about the state of the truth among politicians.
What influence is voting? Are you sure it's a true influence? I'm going to let you in on a little secret. I won $12k (legally) last election because I knew Bush was going to win. I KNEW Kerry wouldn't win. Elections are vestigal in this current governmental organization, as only two parties with very similar platforms are your options. Last I heard, well over 50% of citizens in the US were against the war. A great majority of Americans suffer because of tax breaks for the rich. There are a host of reasons Bush should have lost, but none of them matter. This is at the core of why people ignore elections. Voting is quickly becoming meaningless.

It's our right to own guns. Not all people own guns. Is it wwrong for those people not to own guns? Of course not. Should they complain if someone breaks into their hose and steals something or hurts someone? OF COURSE.

5757

Me Injun. No vote in white mans race. (Sioux, Aleut) Oh, I guess since I'm Aleut I could vote. I'm 23 and I haven't yet. I do, however, plan on voting every year for the rest of my life. Im Mormon if that tells you which way I shall sway. Is it wrong to ignore elections? Yes in my opinion it is. To me it's as simple as, you do live in the United States. So, therefore you should feel that it's your duty to influence who will lead you in the land you dwell in. Unhappy with the fact that you don't have many options when it comes to voting? Bon Voyage.. it's just a hop and a skip to another country.
I'm kidding about leaving to another country. Seriously though, I feel it is important to sustain our leaders. Even if we don't buy everything they are selling. One of them (those who run) will lead us whether you like it or not.

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Hey! Wait! I've got a new complaint, Forever in debt to ((your)) priceless advice. - Nirvana

AngelicVampire

Personally I would make it illegal to not vote, you have the "right to vote", a government represents the will of the people, even if your option is to turn up and stick down that you have no intention of voting (abstain) thats fine, however you should turn up and vote. A government is meant to represent the people, how can you represent your people if the closest they have is 15% yes, 15% no and 70% whatever...

At least by turning up you can register that you have no particular preference (so either outcome isn't bad), by not voting you divorce yourself from the state that represents you, surely this is a bad thing?