pan6467

This word has been politically thrown around alot and I am curious what it means to YOU. What your definition is and maybe compare to what your impression of the other side's meaning of it is. (BE NICE, WE ALL KNOW WE CAN BE)

I don't want Webster's or a dictionary meaning, but what you feel it means please use an example, but not to in depth, maybe just a sentence or 2, to get across the meaning if you must.

There can be other threads started because this may lead to off topic discusions.

I do this only so that in discussions when we use the word we have some idea what the other side means.

To me as I said in another thread it means that it is a right and guarantee to the people that is inherent to them for just being, such as Constitutional rights, such as I am entitled to my opinion.

While in my mind the right sees as anything people feel the government owes them

My example: I hear the right say SS is an entitlement, and yet to me, it isn't. People worked hard and paid into it and therefore it is deserved because of that.

Like I said this is not to argue semantics it is an honest attempt to understand differing viewpoints so that in discussions we can better understand where someone is coming from and what exactly they mean.

Misunderstanding is one of the biggest fight starters IMHO, and if we understand the value someone puts on something and how it differs from us, perhaps we can understand each viewpoint a little better.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

stevo

entitlement: Something that rightly is mine.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Mantus

A standard agreed to by a society.

It's certainly not inherent to me - as in a natural part of being. We as a society want to reach a certain level of civilization thus we intitle our citizens with certain rights and cervices that help us reach the social standard we want.

pan6467

Stevo, is that what your definition is? Or what you believe the other side believes?

And what is an example, please expound, I'm seriously trying to show perhaps, there is middle ground with which to work.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

roachboy

entitlement is a tactical device floated by conservative media to reframe the question of welfare and other types of social assistance (the safety net) away from its functionalities and toward generating a sense that the social safety net is something inflicted on the petit bourgeois by an evil state.
there is no analytic content to it, beyond that.
in fact, the term "entitlement" as it presently operates works to get in the way of thinking about what teh social benefits of teh redistrubtion of wealth might be. just look at any number of threads about taxation--conservatives generally have nothing to say about the redistribution of wealth beyond "i dont like it." which is not an analysis.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

zen_tom

An entitlement is an arrangement or understanding between two parties that on successful application (i.e. meeting some stipulated requirement) or request, some product, service, or benefit claimed by one party, will be honored by the other.
e.g.
If I ask for a portion of fish and chips with mushy peas and pay the displayed or requested price, I am then entitled to a portion of fish and chips with mushy peas.

That's my definition, but I don't see how it can have a political 'flavour' attached to it. Take Social Security, providing I meet a set of requirements, I can claim money from the government. It's as simple as that.

Maybe people are getting confused with the requirements/conditions part.

Lebell

roachboy, in all fairness, he asked what it means to you.

And personally, entitlement, as a word, does indeed conjure up images of wealth redistribution to those who did nothing to earn it. Please note however, that to me this is separate from the idea of a safety net.

I assume you are familiar with, if not actually have read Ayn Rand. While overly verbose, I rather enjoyed Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead. I also agree that there is a mindset among some that they "deserve" something they didn't earn. Where I disagree with her is that I think that a society should also be compassionate towards those who cannot help themselves or who just want a leg up out of their troubles.

That is why I support welfare reform yet not abolishing the system.

So maybe it's just semantics, but yes, I don't have good thoughts associated with this particular word.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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chickentribs

I got one.

Entitlement is anything I have/think I have in my life because of my circumstances.

I am an American citizen, I am entitled to freedom of speech. (Cuban? not entitled)
I am a man, I am entitled to the TV remote (My sense of entitlement may be wrong)
My parents are rich, I am entitled to a college education (probably the tuition...)
I have worked hard, I am entitled to my Porsche (I agree)
I work and pay taxes, I am entitled to police if I am robbed, a fireman if I'm on fire, and a doctor if I am sick. (who could think otherwise...?)

__________________
Oft expectation fails...
and most oft there Where most it promises
- Shakespeare, W.

roachboy

lebell: i do not see any separation between what the word means to me and what i see as its social functions. and i do not see how any such separation could be made. if the idea of the thread is purely subjective associations with the word, the results would still be more or less the same.

i am not sure that i see how you make a distinction between the "safety net" and the redistribution of wealth. unless we are talking about different things across the metaphor fo safety net--which is possible.

in general, i see the redistrubtion of wealth as necessary for system stability--capitalism as a set of economic relations is profoundly destructive of teh social solidairty that the system itself relies on to function--the redistribution of wealth in general is a way of countering some of these effects.

as a term, entitlement--when it refers to redistribution of wealth--is simply a way of obscuring the issue--because right ideologues like to argue that poverty is the fault of the poor and not of the systems of distribution of economic and cultural capital (the right position on this is to my mind wholly absurd, but that's maybe another thread)
it follows that a term like "entitlement" would be functional, in that it erases all social aspects of and and all problems connected to poverty and responses to it and focusses resentment on a (largely fictional, but no matter) sense of "deserving something for nothing"--a simple-minded way of viewing this that has the appeal of making its object as simple as the logic being used to "describe" it.

personally, i think this among the more thoroughly disengenuous tendencies in conservative ideology--the terms are obviously geared toward making the redistribution of wealth something easy to opppose--but this serves as a cover for the retracting of the state in general--which is most understandable as a means for reducing political risk in the longer run. the right has no better idea than anyone else of what the longer-term implications of globalizing capitalism will be for americans. they have no plan--but then neither does anyone else. but they assume that these effects will be difficult to bear for many--so the response appears to be to cut political losses by trying to reduce the involvement of the state in regulating social differentiation. because the state makes political those areas of social regulation that it gets involved in, situations of great uncertainty can be understood as posing unacceptable risks for the political class as a whole.

the term entitlement, then, is a term the right uses to frame one aspect of its preferred mode of class warfare. nothing more, nothing less.

as for ayn rand...i too read her main books and so can only extend my sympathies to you for having done the same. but as i dont have anything good to say about her, and because saying those things would maybe divert the thread, i'll leave it at that. what i have to say about her theory of "entitlement" i worked into the above.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

stevo

both.

I am entitled to my paycheck at the end of the week if I have worked all week long.

and I like chickntribs one: I am entitled to the remote because I am male.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Bill O'Rights

Interesting. I find, more and more, that yours is quickly becoming the "definition" of entitlement.
To me, however, it means something else entirely. For example, when I enlisted in the Air Force, I was promised A,B and C in exchange for X years of my life. When I upheld my end of the bargain, I became entitled to the A, B and C that I was promised. When my veteran's benefits erode, it equates to me as a breach of contract. Welfare, and the like, is merely generosity on the part of a civilized society.

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

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zen_tom

No, welfare is (or should be) a contract that citizens enter into that guarantees a subsistance standard of living while that person is either:
a) actively seeking work
or
b) incapable of work due to illness or other disability

If either of those conditions are not met, that person is no longer 'entitled' to welfare.

zen_tom

It would be worrying if the word 'entitlement' is being bent in this way - it suggests that the politicians are taking advantage of people's inability to understand the meanings of words, and over time, have the power to bend the very meaning of those words in order to suit their political agenda - very Orwellian.

This must be an American thing since I've not come across it elsewhere (I hope)

Mephisto2

The Three Laws of Entitlement
With apologies to Issac Asimov

The First Law of Entitlement
You are a human being. You are entitled to what is laid down in the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

The Second Law of Entitlement
You are citizen. You are entitled to the rights provided by that country, except where these rights conflict with, or do not include, rights defined the the first law. For example, in Sweden they have universal health care. Swedes are entitled to such. In Ireland, they have free education. Irish citizens are entitled to such. In the US they have neither. Americans are not entitled to them. China, however, does not provide freedom of religion, expression or congregation. However, as per the First Law of Entitlement, all Chinese human beings are entitled to those rights.

Third Law of Entitlement
You are a member of a family or social unit. You are entitled to rights provided by your social position, except where those rights conflict, or ignore, the rights as detailed in the First and Second Laws of Entitlement. For example, in some African countries men are "entitled" to perform female circumcision; however that right is void and meaningless, as it contravenes the rights detailed in the First Law of Entitlement. Conversely, as a husband and soon to be father, I am entitled to love, respect and certain social obligations that are uniquely "Western" or "Australian". These are my right, as they are included in this, the Third Law of Entitlement, yet do not contravene the First or Second Laws of Entitlement.


Mr Mephisto

j8ear

Are you new in town? ;-)

^In the immortal words of John Stewart

In reality entitlement is nothing more then that to which you are entitled. You are entitled to NOTHING more then you deserve and you deserve nothing more then you earn, imho.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Mephisto2

So you're not entitled to vote?
You're not entitled to running water and electricity?
You're not entitled to fresh, filtered drinking water?
You're not entitled to being taught how to read and write?
You're not entitled to practice your religion without persecution?


Please tell me how you earned any of those rights.


Mr Mephisto

pan6467

I am learning from some. I wish a few of you would have expounded more, because I truly want to understand both sides, but it's cool.

A truly great debater can argue pro and con of both sides of an issue, and education from the other side is indeed needed at times.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

j8ear

Fresh filtered drinking water is not an entitlement as far as I'm concerned.

Nor is running water, electricity, or being taught to read and write.

Voting and religion are rights I EARNED by paying taxes and immigrating to a country that garuantees these rights. They are not entitlements either.

You have no clue the difference between an entitlement and a right, I guess.

The second law you quoted seems to make a distinction. I am entitled to certain rights because of the citizenship I earned. That's about it.

Zen_tom's "very orwellian" comment becomes even more apt.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Mephisto2

You guess wrong. And try to temper your snotty comments.

You seem to believe in the self-centred approach that you are only entitled to what you "earn" (whatever that means). I, and about 99% of the world, disagree.

I wonder who is right?


Mr Mephisto

j8ear

Have a fantastic evening. You clearly think your right. Who am I to infringe upon that.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

pan6467

No need to get personal.

I disagree, rights given by God therefore become entitlements. Paying taxes has nothing to do with whether or not I have the right to vote, speak my opinions, practice my religion etc.

To say I am only guaranteed rights if I pay taxes is NOT what this country is about, regardless of how some in the GOP may feel about that.

That's the whole purpose of the Bill of Rights. It is to say NO MAN MADE government should ever infringe upon what God has given each of us.

I also disagree about education. If a country does not freely educate its people it will never advance to it's fullest potential.

This is where the Right loses me. I truly don't understand how people who grew up taking full advantage of the items they call entitlements now feel these things need to be taken away or changed to accomodate only their side.

That was my purpose for this thread, I want to understand why this has become acceptable and seemingly the Neo-Con battle cry. "Do away with all that made us great and that we were able to take advantage of, the future citizens aren't entitled to any of the things we were...... well we weren't entitled to them BUT we got them because .... well...... down with entitlements.

I'm looking for why this is an ok attitude for some, so much so that even free clean air and the basic necessities of life are considered "entitlements" and therefore "bad".

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

j8ear

You chime in with a snotty comment to which I disagree, point out rationally your error in the difference between rights and entitlements then you claim to speak for 99% of the population and call me self centered.

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

j8ear

Pan,

I answered your question with MY opinion. We disagree on what entitlements are. Thats cool with me.

As far as paying taxes it was a condition of MY naturalization.

I don't particulary disagree with the things you said about education, charity, welfare, etc...the end result is certainly ideal. I don't believe that makes it an entitlement.

Wow. I'm just going to bow out now.

This has been really quite fun...as usual.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

pan6467

Bear,

I truly respect your opinion and thank you for being civil. I truly enjoy your posts.

As for your Naturalization, and having some idea of what you had to go through (not truly knowing because I didn't have to go through it), and knowing that one must truly show they want it to get it, deserves and has earned my respect for you.

It also tells me how valuable, what I have been able to have gotten and taken for granted, just because I was lucky where I was born.

Thank you for reminding me.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Mephisto2

What comment did I make that was snotty?

Also, even using the term "chime in" has a mildly unpleasant connotation. The thread was a request for comment.

Furthermore, you didn't "rationally" point out any differences between rights and entitlements.

Finally, you make a fair comment about my use of the term "99% of the world". Point taken. What I meant was that most countries provide basic "inalienable" rights that have nothing to do with how much taxes you pay.


Mr Mephisto

martinguerre

i guess i like Mr. Mephisto's rubric...

i'd say the UN declaration is a pretty decent place to start...and i strongly disagree that things such as access to fresh water, or the basic necessities of survival are not human rights or entitlements. i don't know how one would call a society that did not a civilization....it would be nothing more than Burke's hell: the self-serving life that is nasty, brutish and short.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Lebell

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Ratman

I think of an entitlement as something that has a monetary value recieved by someone by virtue of existence only. It is not a payment in kind, as in a contract (I do A, you give me B). A right is something that has no monetary value, rather it is priceless.

An example is the Miranda "Rights". The right to remain silent is a right, as it has no monetary value. The "right" to an attorney should actually be an entitlement to an attorney, as an attorney's services have monetary value, and you recieve these services whether you are a citizen of the US or not, a taxpayer or not.

I am an American citizen working and living in a foreign country. I do not pay taxes in the US, but none of my Constitutional Rights are forfeit. I pay taxes in this country, yet I do not have the right to vote, or even to travel freely (as a resident, I must have my Alien Identification Card on my person, and may be stopped and required to show it [/I]without due cause[I]. If I don't have it on me, I go to jail, where I can be held incomunicado for several weeks with no contact to the Embassy or an attorney or even an interpreter during questioning.). This just to say that paying taxes doesn't necesarilly give you the right or entitlement to anything.

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The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference.

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zen_tom

Entitlement is not something received by virtue of existance alone - as you state, paying taxes in a foreign country does not entitle you to anything. You are entitled only to what your government entitles you to - one of the conditions for that entitlement is that you are a legal citizen, or that you are working on a visa, or that you are seeking work - each 'entitlement' requires some condition to be met.

The situation of an attorney, I would propose to be a right, rather than an entitlement, because it is something that everyone, regardless of nationality, status, political or religious beliefs benefits from in the US. (Is that right? Could Michael Jackson have been granted an attorney in his trial if he'd asked for one? Or do you have to prove that you can't afford one first? If there are stipulations or conditions, then the right becomes an entitlement)

It sounds as though ALL your constitutional rights are forfeit. The things granted by different governments, and the conditions they apply to applicants wishing to benefit from those grants are all different. So in one country, you may only be entitled to vote if you are a Communist Party member, or only if you are in the intimate circle of the ruling family. If you are an American citizen, your entitlement to vote is taken away after you have been convicted of a federal crime (or so I've heard) So there is a condition placed on that so-called 'inalienable right' already.

A medieval king might grant land and a title, to one of his men - termed an 'entitlement' literally meaning 'bestowing someone a title'. Normally this would be done in order to show gratitude for services rendered, be they loyalty or whatever. However, it might also be done in return for services 'expected' to be rendered, i.e. collection of taxes, simply stewarding the land, or for defence. Either way, an entitlement is a conditional transaction.

If one of those Lords joined forces with a foreign power, would he still be legally 'entitled' to his land? I doubt the authority (The King) would think so.

pan6467

This has truly been enlightening for me. Thank you guys, I truly appreciate the diversity and well thought out posts.

I am learning a lot and it is a good thing.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ratman

Zen_Tom:

Your argument that the "right" to an attorney proves my point: It is something you get regardless of tax-paying status, or by your existence alone. Unless you are an enemy combatant at Guantanamo, of course.

You are almost correct that my constitutional rights as guaranteed by the Constition of The United States are forfeit due to my foreign residence. I have to abide by the laws of this country, period. I am not a diplomat "entitled" to immunity based on this status. However, I still vote in EVERY election, as is my RIGHT in the good ol' USuvAY, by absentee balllot. None of my rights are violable as long as my foot is on US soil, regardless of whether I pay taxes or not on that same ground. As long as I meet certain minimal but important reqirements, I am covered by the Constitution.

I assert that the right to vote is priceless. I don't think that the bestowing of a title has any signifigance whatsoever in the United States. A non-naturalized citezen, or even a convicted felon in the US, does not have this right. Even a tax-paying convicted felon. However that same person is entitled to a lawyer if arrested simply because they are a person accused of a crime. I can own a gun if I am in the US (illegal here) as long as I am not a convicted felon. Again, a right not an entitlement. I can say that the president is a douchebag if I want, that right is guaranteed, not an entitlement.

You can not put a price on your rights, and maybe you don't appreciate them until you are in a situation where you wish you had them (like being arrested in a foriegn country). I currently do not pay Social Security tases on my income. I can only expect a payment based on my contribution, therefore Social Security is not an entitlement.

Agian I assert that a right is something guaranteed by the Constitution based on citizenship (and residence). An entitlement is something that has value and can be gained regardless of citizenship or services rendered.

__________________
The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference.

"God made man, but he used the monkey to do it." DEVO