Canada: Is the Gomery Inquiry going to bring down the Liberals? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Yakk · 05-03-2005, 09:37 AM

For any of their crimes, the Liberals cleaned up public finance.

Going from a >60% debt-to-GDP ratio to a <40% debt-to-GDP ratio in 10 years is impressive. It isn't sexy, but it is important.

OFKU0 · 05-05-2005, 07:05 AM

Today's news

Thu, May 5, 2005

Quote:

PM, Manley in loop: Guite

But former cabinet ministers deny involvement in sponsorship scandal

By STEPHANIE RUBEC, Parliamentary Bureau

MONTREAL -- Former sponsorship head Chuck Guite dragged Prime Minister Paul Martin and former Liberal ministers into Adscam during his testimony before the Gomery inquiry.

Guite, whose testimony was under a publication ban until it was lifted yesterday, fingered Martin, Liberal leadership hopeful and former Ottawa South MP John Manley and others for elaborate schemes to direct work to Liberal-friendly ad agencies -- especially those who helped during election campaigns.

"It was basically splitting the pie," Guite said during his second appearance before the inquiry.

Guite, who headed the sponsorship program in the late '90s, told the Gomery Inquiry he heard from his successor, Pierre Tremblay, that then-public works minister Alfonso Gagliano had spoken to his two cabinet colleagues about maintaining advertising contracts for Vickers & Benson.

'NEVER INVOLVED'

PMO spokesman Scott Reid denied Martin's involvement.

"The prime minister never involved himself in the contracting process -- he never involved himself in the determination of contract awards. Period," he told the Sun.

A smiling Martin had little to say on his way into a reception last night at the soon-to-open Canadian War Museum.

Asked about Guite's testimony, he said: "I'm really not quite up on it."

Gagliano immediately denied the charge in an interview with Corriere Canadese, an Italian-language newspaper based in Toronto.

"I never made such a claim to Tremblay for one very simple reason: I have never spoken of contracts with Martin, nor with Manley," Gagliano told the Corriere in an interview to be published today.

Manley also denied he had a conversation with Gagliano about guaranteeing V & B wouldn't lose their $70-million tourism contract in the event they were bought by French advertising giant Havas.

"Clearly Mr. Guite is speculating and I want to state categorically that I did not have this conversation with Mr. Gagliano," Manley said in a statement.

Guite testified that Chretien's senior staffers and Manley made sure the BCP agency got a share of the $70-million tourism contract.

"When we awarded the contract strictly to (Vickers & Benson), Yves Gougoux from BCP went ballistic and phoned PMO and they changed it," Guite said on Tuesday.

Guite said Chretien's then-chief of staff ensured Manley, who oversaw Tourism Canada, split the contract between Vickers & Benson and Montreal's BCP.

"Is there political interference? Yes, I think so," Guite said.

BCP issued a statement yesterday "categorically" denying all of Guite's allegations.

In the Commons yesterday, Tory MP Jason Kenney said Martin "has not been telling the whole truth" when he says he was unaware of what was going on in the 1990s.

"(Martin) was just some innocent aboard this pirate ship captained by (then-prime minister) Jean Chretien, with people like Chuck Guite as the crew?" Kenney said.

"He was just some sort of hostage in this scandalous affair? Canadians don't buy it."

During his four days of testimony, Guite blamed his political masters for the mismanagement of the $250-million sponsorship program.

"Sitting here it seems that nobody was involved in this but me."

CHRETIEN PAL

Guite said former public works minister David Dingwall tinkered with the rules to make sure the Grits still had the freedom to handpick preferred ad agencies.

"After the (election) campaign is over and they've won, they want to return the favour," Guite said.

Guite said Dingwall introduced him to Pierre Corriveau -- bagman to Chretien -- shortly before the 1995 Quebec referendum.

"(Dingwall) said if you ever find somebody in bed between Jean Chretien and his wife, it'll be Jacques Corriveau," Guite said.

A new inquiry document shows Corriveau went directly to Jean Carle in the PMO to secure sponsorships even before the program's 1996 creation.

The document backs Guite's claims that Chretien's former chief of staff Jean Pelletier and Carle drew up the sponsorship lists and as the program matured, Guite said, he got direction from Gagliano.

Guite said Gagliano dipped into the sponsorships to pay for his own pet projects, even demanding a paper trail-free approval for a Canada sign in a small Italian village.

stephanie.rubec@tor.sunpub.com

http://www.ottawasun.com/

Whether he had anything to do with the scandal or not, I always wondered why an up and coming political star like Manley packed up and left. Time will tell I suppose either way.

But this

Quote:

A smiling Martin had little to say on his way into a reception last night at the soon-to-open Canadian War Museum.

Asked about Guite's testimony, he said: "I'm really not quite up on it."

Seems Mr. Dithers has taken a page out of Chretiens book on how to be arrogant in all his uselessness. Hmmm, a man who promised to get to the bottom of the Liberal corruption now effectively and flippantly states basically 'who cares'. Very nice. Shows how much he gives a shit about this country. No worries though. If he loses the next election he won't stick around. He's got a shipping company to run that doesn't pay taxes in this country. Promises made,.......

Charlatan · 05-05-2005, 07:30 AM

The current polls put the Liberals ahead of the Conservatives... looks like the public listened to what Martin had to say in his TV address.

I don't think any of us want to go to the polls right away and many of us would rather wait for until Gomery has given his report. Why the rush? Punished now or next January doesn't matter to me. When I listen to the recordings of the Conservatives in Question Period all I can think is that sound like a bunch of illbehaved school children.

OFKU0 · 05-05-2005, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

When I listen to the recordings of the Conservatives in Question Period all I can think is that sound like a bunch of illbehaved school children.

I agree with that but it's not just the Conservatives acting like children.

It's interesting though how public perception is so singlehandedly decided moment by moment. CTV Newsnet ran a clip the other day several times of the proceedings in the House. It went something like this.

(paraphrased)

Harper -- Can the Prime Minister tell us why he ran on election promises, promises that were first mentioned in his budget plan and now he has changed them to accomadate the NDP and his political will?

Martin -- Mr. Speaker, this is the same member of the opposition who supported our budget draft, and now he doesn't. Perhaps he should explain his motives to all Canadians on why he flip flopped on his opinion.

Hmmmm,....pot calling the kettle black, eh. Interesting too, the next day Liberal support shot up.

It's astonishing how a one minute clip can turn the tide in how people think. This clip ran on several other news stations as well. Global, CBC and even City T.V picked it up. But that's politics.

Charlatan · 05-05-2005, 08:39 AM

I see the whole deal with the NDP this way:

Conservatives withdraw their support in the belief they can force an election and win power.

NDP sees an opening to get some of their issues dealt with but offering support to the Liberals.

Liberals, eager to stay in power, take the deal.

Conservatives and Conservative voters, throw their hands up in disgust.

Small number of Liberal supporters shake their head and wait to see how this all plays out.

Larger number of Liberal supporters shrug and say, "This is how minority governments are supposed to work."

NDP voters agree that this is how minority governments are supposed to work and wish they had more seats so they could truly hold the balance of power.

The majority of people want Gomery to finish. Sure we are all pissed about this. But that is no reason to run off and hold an election (yes, I know Martin did last summer but technically he had no mandate and the commission had only just started - I see no reason to interrupt the inquiry at this time).

I guarantee if Harper forces the election now, it will jump up and bite him in the ass...

OFKU0 · 05-05-2005, 11:15 AM

Yeah I agree with your analogies. Funny thing though, the major papers the other day were saying how Jack got duped by Martin because Martin's alleged billions in social policy promise will be open to legislation which in no way is that a solid commitment to it actually happening.

In other news, Harper and Duceppe are best buddies, again according to some media sources, and Stephen Harper will destroy Canada.

If an election were called now I don't think Harper will win. Martin has to cast him as the devil again and voila,... same old same old. It just burns my ass that so many people believe Martin is a poor hapless victim. Short memories and money to waste and burn we Canadians are a lot of.

Charlatan · 05-05-2005, 11:21 AM

On the upside the hundred million or so that was wasted in this scam pales in comparison to the billions other nations are spending on war...

While I don't like Harper at all, I can agree that there is some major spin doctoring going on. However, even without the spinning, I don't see the Conservatives winning any elections as long as Harper is the leader. He is Reform by anyother name and as a nation we don't generally support their social conservative platform and that isn't going to change any time soon.

In fact, it is why the spin doctoring is working so well.

Cumbaby · 05-05-2005, 02:59 PM

I am afraid that even if an election is forced on the Liberals the most we will accomplish is yet another minority government with the Bloc weilding more power!

The only ones to gain will be the seperatists!

It is a shame we have to have a country governed by a bunch of known criminals.

Lead543 · 05-05-2005, 03:27 PM

I can't believe how complicated politics is getting. I think TFP should form its own government and run against the liberals.

You'd have my vote.

streak_56 · 05-05-2005, 05:06 PM

I don't think an election would do any good for anyone.

1) It will cost money, which would be better spent on things that Stephen Harper promised.
2) Liberals will have a minority again, with either the Bloc, or the Conservatives with more seats, leading to absolutely nothing being done. They couldn't even get a budget to pass. Thats why I "kind of" agree with the NDP siding with them.
3) Couldn't get a budget to pass before... what would happen if there was an election? Same thing, no budget.
4) Though I hate the liberals with passion and really don't care about the NDP, I like the budget that they have proposed. Hopefully it'll pass and the liberals will dig themselves into another big hole, and then hopefully the conservatives will win. And yes... I am being serious.

Thats pretty much what I have to say. In the west... Liberals=enemy, Conservatives=good guys. Sorry have to go with the good guys.

OFKU0 · 05-05-2005, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

On the upside the hundred million or so that was wasted in this scam pales in comparison to the billions other nations are spending on war...

On the upside? C'mon Charlatan, you know better than that.

So we didn't waste billions going into war, namely Iraq. What difference does it make? Between the HRDC scandal and the Gun Registry, there's 4 billion wasted right there.

If you name 3 other Liberal scandals in the last 12 years that cost Canadians money, I'll meet you in T.O and buy you and your wife dinner. Or not.

Charlatan · 05-06-2005, 05:43 AM

I was sort being sardonic about it... looking for the tarnished silver lining as it were.

Believe me, I am no Liberal supporter... that said, I also remember that during the Mulroney years there was also a lot of corruption PLUS we had to deal with an ass like Mulroney. When it comes down to it, sadly, we have a choice between a corrupt Liberal government whose policies I, generally speaking, agree with OR a Conservative government whose policies I know I don't agree with (and who will very likely be just as corrupt in the long run)...

List of "scandals":

Pearson Airport - 800 million or so (technically just cleaning up PC messes)

Shawinigate - hundreds of thousands

The Mulroney Airbus thing - few hundred thousand to millions (but it would have been nice if it was true)

Employment Insurance - $40 billion in overbill never paid back (like any government would pay that back)

The cancelling of the Helicopters - $500 million

Martin's untendered shipping contracts - $161 million

There are more to be sure...

Sticky · 05-06-2005, 05:55 AM

Adrian Clarkson romping the globe with her artist freinds to the tune of millions out of the taxpayers' pockets

Parrish, who has called Americans "bastards" and referred to Americans who support the missile defence program as the "coalition of idiots," was videotaped stomping on a doll of Bush for the television program, This Hour Has 22 Minutes.

Jean Chretien's top aide, Francoise Ducros, calls U.S. President George Bush as "a moron."

Feel free to add to the list

Charlatan · 05-06-2005, 06:01 AM

That's not technically a Liberal scandal... it's a GG scandal.

Personally, I think what she was doing is a good thing. If we are going to have a GG let's use it to help promote Canada. In the case of her tour of Scandinavia I think we need stronger ties to the other northern nations. We share a lot with them:

landscape
weather
political ideology (i.e. we are socially progressive)
We even share a border with them (at the pole).

We should have stronger cultural and business ties to them as well...

Sticky · 05-06-2005, 06:03 AM

I added a few

Sticky · 05-06-2005, 06:08 AM

A good portion of the world already thinks that Canada is a great country. Canada needs promoting inside Canada to keep people here.

That being said, I don't think that her trips are a bad idea, I just think that they are way too lavish. And considering what else the money can be used for I think that restraint on her part and a little push back on the part of the government would not be a bad idea.

Charlatan · 05-06-2005, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sticky

Parrish, who has called Americans "bastards" and referred to Americans who support the missile defence program as the "coalition of idiots," was videotaped stomping on a doll of Bush for the television program, This Hour Has 22 Minutes.

Jean Chretien's top aide, Francoise Ducros, calls U.S. President George Bush as "a moron."

Feel free to add to the list

These didn't cost us money so I didn't mention them... well they didn't directly cost us money. They just annoyed the US administration at a time when they wanted us to be boosters and so they prolonged the softwood lumber and beef trade issues (personally I think it just gave them an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway).

Sticky · 05-06-2005, 06:10 AM

I was just adding to the list of scandals and those were the ones that I could think of.

Charlatan · 05-06-2005, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sticky

A good portion of the world already thinks that Canada is a great country. Canada needs promoting inside Canada to keep people here.

The brain drain is grossly exagerated... and ignores the large number of people immigrating here...

That said, wasn't the sponsorship scandal all about promoting Canada inside Canada?

Sticky · 05-06-2005, 06:44 AM

No the sponsorship scandal was about promoting Canada in Quebec although it seems to be turning out to have been about getting government/public money back into the Libeal Party.

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/A...hub=topstories

OFKU0 · 05-06-2005, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

,... wasn't the sponsorship scandal all about promoting Canada inside Canada?

That's a good one. Funny enough that's what the Liberals are saying. /cough,..kickback,.. cough/

Todays front page of the Ottawa Sun has the Liberals widening their lead by 6 points over the Tories. This after Michel Beliveau, a Liberal top aide as well as Chretien's riding organizer, admited to receiving $300,000 in kickbacks. Silly fool or smart man? Who knows anymore.

Seems the Conservatives can't get the people mad at the Liberals. I wonder how many ardently believe Joe Volpe, who says the Conservatives are the KKK and will never forget or forego their racist past. Slander the Tories, support grows for the Liberals. Unbelievable.

And for the record I am not Liberal, Conservative, NDP or anything else. I just wish we had a group of politicians representing whatever party that weren't fucking embarrassments to the country. What a joke they all are.

Sticky · 05-06-2005, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFKU0

Todays front page of the Ottawa Sun has the Liberals widening their lead by 6 points over the Tories. This after Michel Beliveau, a Liberal top aide as well as Chretien's riding organizer, admited to receiving $300,000 in kickbacks.

I agree with the idea that teh headline is trying to promote - what is it going to take to get Canadians upset at the Liberals.

However, the timing of the poll is not as you mention above "after the Michel Beliveau confession.

- The Michel Beliveau stuff happened yesterday (Thurs.)
- The article states that the Poll was completed on Tues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ottawa Sun

The nationwide survey of 1,000 voters completed on Tuesday

Charlatan · 05-06-2005, 07:45 AM

I am as perplexed by all of this as anyone... why *do* the Liberals continue to get support?

The only conclusions I come to:

1) The Canadian people distrust the Conservatives *that* much more...
2) Canadians *really* don't want to go to the polls right now and want to wait until February 2006 (read: if the liberals are ahead in the polls, the Conservatives will not force the election)
3) Canadians are so used to getting ripped off by their politicians they just see this as business as usual...

Charlatan · 05-06-2005, 07:46 AM

I agree OFKUO... it would be nice to have a government we could trust. Now if everone would just make me the supreme dictator I will make sure there is no more corruption... I promise.

OFKU0 · 05-08-2005, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I agree OFKUO... it would be nice to have a government we could trust. Now if everone would just make me the supreme dictator I will make sure there is no more corruption... I promise.

I'll be your right hand man taking care of all your dirty work until I err,....ahh,....uh,..... replace you. Don't make me wait to long. I got debts to pay also.

Yakk · 05-08-2005, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I am as perplexed by all of this as anyone... why *do* the Liberals continue to get support?

First, people have long memories.

The Liberals fixed alot of stuff. Economically, Canada is working. The debt is getting paid down, and we didn't rape our social programs to do it (well, only a lilbit). People remember this.

Quebec seperation was in real danger. Jean's claim that "we didn't account for the money well enough, crimes where committed. We should catch those that committed the crimes -- and the price was worth it for national unity" still has some weight in Ontario. Ontario is used to spending its money left right and center to keep other provinces happy.

Quote:

The only conclusions I come to:

1) The Canadian people distrust the Conservatives *that* much more...

Know how much Alberta trusts Ontario?

Well, let me tell you - the Reform Party of Canada is not trusted at all in Central Canada. The Reform Party built it's existance by attacking central canada (both Ontario and Quebec), and it the current Conservative party is widely viewed more as a Reform Party take-over, and less as a reborn PC party.

Quote:

2) Canadians *really* don't want to go to the polls right now and want to wait until February 2006 (read: if the liberals are ahead in the polls, the Conservatives will not force the election)

Aka, until the commision issues it's report?

Elections cost money. Having rapid elections costs more money. To quote a friend of mine "I don't know who I'm going to vote for. But, if anyone causes an election soon, that party has just caused me real direct financial harm. I'll vote to have them defeated."

He doesn't know how bad the corruption is, and finding out will take time. He does know that causing an election will hurt the national account.

Do national elections cost millions, hundreds of millions, billions or tens of billions of dollars to run?

Quote:

3) Canadians are so used to getting ripped off by their politicians they just see this as business as usual...

Or, are willing to see if people will get prosecuted, and want to see more than just allegations?

I expect people to steal money from the government - people steal office supplies, which are worth next to nothing, with a better chance of getting caught. There are dishonest thieves everywhere. The question is, are they willing to catch them and put them on trial?

Fuck, a friend of mine was working with some people, and they found a thief. They where selling DvDs. 3 of them had a partnership, and they had one employee -- on of the 3 people's brothers. One employee. Who stole DvDs and sold them on ebay.

After they caught him (because, like most theives, he was an idiot -- figured if he stole once and wasn't caught, stealing 100 times was just as safe), they worked out that their cash-flow problem that was making it hard for them to grow was basically that noid stealing goods and making them just barely profitable.

Corruption happens. The trick isn't preventing it -- the trick is catching it and burning it out.

Edit: They would have caught it much earlier, but their inventory management system didn't exist -- it was "stack of DVDs over there, ship it".

Edit2: Seplling.

Charlatan · 05-09-2005, 03:29 AM

Yakk... that's about how I see it. I am just amazed that it is playing out this way... Usually when the media exposes something as odious as "adscam" the public howls for blood... I would say it is a combination of the above plus the fact that Martin wasn't PM when it occurred...

I'm just impressed that we are mature enough to wait for the Gomery results.

OFKU0 · 05-09-2005, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I'm just impressed that we are mature enough to wait for the Gomery results.

The good part of that is some people will see for themselves hopefully who did what. By that point though I think most people will have completely lost interest or assume that what they heard was true or not and that it is old news. There is no reason to believe this scandal is any different from all the rest in terms of mismanagement, criminal, ethical or otherwise, and apparently it doesn't seem to matter a great deal.

I don't favour an election right away but if one were held now or a year from now, it won't make one iota of a difference. The Liberals scare mongering will win the day and people will continue to believe that all the Conservatives want is power at any cost which, ironically is the first page in the Liberals playbook.

Politics aside, I still can't find an answer to why Canadians are so apathetically contented with our attitudes toward big government. Maybe not interested? Don't care? Too busy? Don't understand? I just don't know. I just wish Canadians had the same passion for what goes on in our country as they do for hockey, Canadian Idol and Corner Gas.

Charlatan · 05-09-2005, 08:08 AM

OFKUO... it comes down to the fact that the conservatives, as they are today, will never get voted into power because Ontario and Quebec don't like their Social Conservatism (Quebec has a lot of other issues that get the Bloc elected).

Ultimatley the issue is the voting block in Ontario. You would see very different results in Ontario if the Conservatives were more like the Mike Harris Conservatives and less like Preston Manning's Reform.

As it stands, the NDP is too far left for most and the Conservatives to socially conservative. This leaves the only party left, the centrist Liberals for everyone else.

I don't find it all that much of a head scratcher...

Yakk · 05-09-2005, 11:31 AM

Roughly:
Ontario: 1/3 of Canada
Quebec: 1/4 of Canada
West: 1/4 of Canada
Maritimes+Other: 1/6 of Canada

If your party policies alienate 7/12 to 8/12th of Canada, you won't get elected.

Does anyone know a decent Proportional Representation system that
A> Doesn't make parties the be-all and end-all
B> Gives results that are publically verifiable by humans without mechanical assistance
C> Is otherwise as fraud-resistant as naive FPtP voting
?

OFKU0 · 05-09-2005, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Ultimatley the issue is the voting block in Ontario. You would see very different results in Ontario if the Conservatives were more like the Mike Harris Conservatives,....

That is 100% correct,...unless one is a teacher, nurse or on social assistance. I voted for Harris after Bob (here's a blank cheque) Rae was in and voted the second time because in 30+ years on the planet at that time, he was the one and only politician who actually did what he said he would do, and didn't cave into the whiners and complainers.

To bad he isn't interested in politics at the federal level. He could be one of the best pm's ever.

OFKU0 · 05-09-2005, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

OFKUO... it comes down to the fact that the conservatives, as they are today, will never get voted into power because Ontario and Quebec don't like their Social Conservatism (Quebec has a lot of other issues that get the Bloc elected).

I don't find it all that much of a head scratcher...

You know, I don't think the majority of people even realize that. I think most people rely on the soundbite of the day depending on their biases. I hate to paint everyone with the same brush, but I think the majority of the Canadian electorate couldn't figure out what party stands for what if they were presented with a multiple guess quiz.

Charlatan · 05-09-2005, 12:36 PM

If that's the case then it is probably people voting by force of habit more than anything else... My mother, for example, is a dyed-in-the-wool Liberal. It's what she has voted for just about, ever.

She was horribly offended when my wife and I had an NDP sign on our lawn last election.

You could also point to the strong support from the immigrant population that resides in and around Toronto... they largely support the Liberals because of the Libs progressive immigration policies. Who knows how much effect the same sex marriage issue will come to bear on this traditional voter base (did you see all the leaders at the Seikh Temple shilling for votes? Make no mistake that was directly related to the fact that there are votes to get there because many Seikh's are pissed about the same sex legislation).

Janey · 05-11-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFKU0

That is 100% correct,...unless one is a teacher, nurse or on social assistance. I voted for Harris after Bob (here's a blank cheque) Rae was in and voted the second time because in 30+ years on the planet at that time, he was the one and only politician who actually did what he said he would do, and didn't cave into the whiners and complainers.

To bad he isn't interested in politics at the federal level. He could be one of the best pm's ever.

I have voted liberal for as long as I could remember. Except for when I voted for Harris and his PCs in their second term. For once I saw somebody actually DO what he promised. Even though his common sense revolution was trite and simplistic, he actually did what the electorate wished.

So I will vote conservative. what I will not do is vote Federal Conservative, not while the party remains reform under the covers. I for one am tired of westerners (speaking as a Vancouverite now - as west as you can be) griping about the 'Stupidity' of Ontario voters, always voting in the Liberals. Well! goddamit, what are the options???? Another minority gov't that is in bed with the Bloc, just so that they can pull down the current govt?? uh uh.

And besides, why are the Liberals in power in the first place? because of bad taste left in the electorate's mouth after the 2 terms of the most disliked Prime Minister in Canadian history and the PC party.. that's why. We have short memories.

I would vote PC er.. i mean conservative if John Torry was there instead of Harper.... Now that would be a party to reckon with.

Charlatan · 05-11-2005, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janey

I would vote PC er.. i mean conservative if John Torry was there instead of Harper.... Now that would be a party to reckon with.

Not that I would vote for him but it would be the answer to the Conservative's problems in Ontario... thankfully the Conservatives will never elect him as their leader.

Charlatan · 05-11-2005, 02:19 PM

By the way, what is everyone's take on yesterday's vote in the House of Commons?

I think the Bloc and Conservatives are making asses of themselves by forcing the issue. The vote wasn't a non-confidence vote it was a proceedural matter. Why rush things? Even with the justification of Adscam behind they still come off like sour grapes...

They should just wait until next Feb when Martin has promised to call the election. In the meantime just let the country get on with business.

Of course their fear is that everyone in Canada will forget what has happened by the time Feb comes around...

I just love that the Conservative and Bloc are working together... politcs makes strange bedfellows, no?

splck · 05-11-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janey

what I will not do is vote Federal Conservative, not while the party remains reform under the covers. ..

...And besides, why are the Liberals in power in the first place? because of bad taste left in the electorate's mouth after the 2 terms of the most disliked Prime Minister in Canadian history and the PC party.. that's why. We have short memories.
.

You say people won't elect the current PC party because of the Mulrony years, yet you say they are Reformers under cover. I don't think you can have it both ways, it's either one or the other IMO.

OFKU0 · 05-11-2005, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

By the way, what is everyone's take on yesterday's vote in the House of Commons?

I think the Bloc and Conservatives are making asses of themselves by forcing the issue. The vote wasn't a non-confidence vote it was a proceedural matter. Why rush things? Even with the justification of Adscam behind they still come off like sour grapes...

They should just wait until next Feb when Martin has promised to call the election. In the meantime just let the country get on with business.

Of course their fear is that everyone in Canada will forget what has happened by the time Feb comes around...

I just love that the Conservative and Bloc are working together... politcs makes strange bedfellows, no?

You know Charlatan, you have an interesting way of wording your responses. I'll read it once and agree or not, then read it again and the same continues. But that's not a bad thing,....it makes one think.

Saw Martin on t.v., tonight. He looks scared. And he isn't a good enough actor to play scared, even though he plays every other face in the book.

A big blow over the next week by either party, and/or a decent rebuff will give the edge and hold it. 50/50 I'd say.

Charlatan · 05-12-2005, 05:25 AM

Martin *is* scared... he knows it is pretty much over.

It really is just a matter of time.

That said, the Con/Bloc seem be getting what they wanted, a vote on the budget is to go ahead next Thursday. This will be the confidence vote they've all been wanting.

This *should* be a time for them to sit back and wait. Instead they continue to cry about the vote they won earlier this week... if they were smart they would keep the pressure on but stop with the whining... it really isn't helping them.

They have one week until the vote. They need to be more strategic and less like tantrum throwing kids... The vote will be as close as one vote either way...

OFKU0 · 05-12-2005, 08:19 AM

Yup you're right.

I think it's almost time for a new thread regarding the ridiculous soundbites of wild accusations from all parties that are sure to come. Let's see if they can come up with some new zingers rather than the old tired,...Liberal=corrupt,...Conservative=Satan,...etc,..etc,... etc,...

My prediction on the budget vote. 1 vote difference. For who? Don't know.

05-03-2005, 09:37 AM	#41 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	For any of their crimes, the Liberals cleaned up public finance. Going from a >60% debt-to-GDP ratio to a <40% debt-to-GDP ratio in 10 years is impressive. It isn't sexy, but it is important. __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

05-05-2005, 07:30 AM	#43 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	The current polls put the Liberals ahead of the Conservatives... looks like the public listened to what Martin had to say in his TV address. I don't think any of us want to go to the polls right away and many of us would rather wait for until Gomery has given his report. Why the rush? Punished now or next January doesn't matter to me. When I listen to the recordings of the Conservatives in Question Period all I can think is that sound like a bunch of illbehaved school children. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-05-2005, 08:39 AM	#45 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I see the whole deal with the NDP this way: Conservatives withdraw their support in the belief they can force an election and win power. NDP sees an opening to get some of their issues dealt with but offering support to the Liberals. Liberals, eager to stay in power, take the deal. Conservatives and Conservative voters, throw their hands up in disgust. Small number of Liberal supporters shake their head and wait to see how this all plays out. Larger number of Liberal supporters shrug and say, "This is how minority governments are supposed to work." NDP voters agree that this is how minority governments are supposed to work and wish they had more seats so they could truly hold the balance of power. The majority of people want Gomery to finish. Sure we are all pissed about this. But that is no reason to run off and hold an election (yes, I know Martin did last summer but technically he had no mandate and the commission had only just started - I see no reason to interrupt the inquiry at this time). I guarantee if Harper forces the election now, it will jump up and bite him in the ass... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-05-2005, 11:15 AM	#46 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	Yeah I agree with your analogies. Funny thing though, the major papers the other day were saying how Jack got duped by Martin because Martin's alleged billions in social policy promise will be open to legislation which in no way is that a solid commitment to it actually happening. In other news, Harper and Duceppe are best buddies, again according to some media sources, and Stephen Harper will destroy Canada. If an election were called now I don't think Harper will win. Martin has to cast him as the devil again and voila,... same old same old. It just burns my ass that so many people believe Martin is a poor hapless victim. Short memories and money to waste and burn we Canadians are a lot of. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

05-05-2005, 11:21 AM	#47 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	On the upside the hundred million or so that was wasted in this scam pales in comparison to the billions other nations are spending on war... While I don't like Harper at all, I can agree that there is some major spin doctoring going on. However, even without the spinning, I don't see the Conservatives winning any elections as long as Harper is the leader. He is Reform by anyother name and as a nation we don't generally support their social conservative platform and that isn't going to change any time soon. In fact, it is why the spin doctoring is working so well. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-05-2005, 02:59 PM	#48 (permalink)
Cumbaby Upright Location: The country above the USA	Who Wins? I am afraid that even if an election is forced on the Liberals the most we will accomplish is yet another minority government with the Bloc weilding more power! The only ones to gain will be the seperatists! It is a shame we have to have a country governed by a bunch of known criminals. __________________ So many men! So little time! Last edited by Cumbaby; 05-05-2005 at 03:02 PM..

05-05-2005, 03:27 PM	#49 (permalink)
Lead543 Registered User Location: Calgary	I can't believe how complicated politics is getting. I think TFP should form its own government and run against the liberals. You'd have my vote.

05-05-2005, 05:06 PM	#50 (permalink)
streak_56 who ever said streaking was a bad thing? Location: Calgary	I don't think an election would do any good for anyone. 1) It will cost money, which would be better spent on things that Stephen Harper promised. 2) Liberals will have a minority again, with either the Bloc, or the Conservatives with more seats, leading to absolutely nothing being done. They couldn't even get a budget to pass. Thats why I "kind of" agree with the NDP siding with them. 3) Couldn't get a budget to pass before... what would happen if there was an election? Same thing, no budget. 4) Though I hate the liberals with passion and really don't care about the NDP, I like the budget that they have proposed. Hopefully it'll pass and the liberals will dig themselves into another big hole, and then hopefully the conservatives will win. And yes... I am being serious. Thats pretty much what I have to say. In the west... Liberals=enemy, Conservatives=good guys. Sorry have to go with the good guys.

05-06-2005, 05:43 AM	#52 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I was sort being sardonic about it... looking for the tarnished silver lining as it were. Believe me, I am no Liberal supporter... that said, I also remember that during the Mulroney years there was also a lot of corruption PLUS we had to deal with an ass like Mulroney. When it comes down to it, sadly, we have a choice between a corrupt Liberal government whose policies I, generally speaking, agree with OR a Conservative government whose policies I know I don't agree with (and who will very likely be just as corrupt in the long run)... List of "scandals": Pearson Airport - 800 million or so (technically just cleaning up PC messes) Shawinigate - hundreds of thousands The Mulroney Airbus thing - few hundred thousand to millions (but it would have been nice if it was true) Employment Insurance - $40 billion in overbill never paid back (like any government would pay that back) The cancelling of the Helicopters - $500 million Martin's untendered shipping contracts - $161 million There are more to be sure... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-06-2005, 05:55 AM	#53 (permalink)
Sticky	Adrian Clarkson romping the globe with her artist freinds to the tune of millions out of the taxpayers' pockets Parrish, who has called Americans "bastards" and referred to Americans who support the missile defence program as the "coalition of idiots," was videotaped stomping on a doll of Bush for the television program, This Hour Has 22 Minutes. Jean Chretien's top aide, Francoise Ducros, calls U.S. President George Bush as "a moron." Feel free to add to the list __________________ Sticky The Stickman Last edited by Sticky; 05-06-2005 at 06:02 AM..

05-06-2005, 06:01 AM	#54 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	That's not technically a Liberal scandal... it's a GG scandal. Personally, I think what she was doing is a good thing. If we are going to have a GG let's use it to help promote Canada. In the case of her tour of Scandinavia I think we need stronger ties to the other northern nations. We share a lot with them: landscape weather political ideology (i.e. we are socially progressive) We even share a border with them (at the pole). We should have stronger cultural and business ties to them as well... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-06-2005, 06:03 AM	#55 (permalink)
Sticky	I added a few __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-06-2005, 06:08 AM	#56 (permalink)
Sticky	A good portion of the world already thinks that Canada is a great country. Canada needs promoting inside Canada to keep people here. That being said, I don't think that her trips are a bad idea, I just think that they are way too lavish. And considering what else the money can be used for I think that restraint on her part and a little push back on the part of the government would not be a bad idea. __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-06-2005, 06:10 AM	#58 (permalink)
Sticky	I was just adding to the list of scandals and those were the ones that I could think of. __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-06-2005, 06:44 AM	#60 (permalink)
Sticky	No the sponsorship scandal was about promoting Canada in Quebec although it seems to be turning out to have been about getting government/public money back into the Libeal Party. http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/A...hub=topstories __________________ Sticky The Stickman

05-06-2005, 07:45 AM	#63 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I am as perplexed by all of this as anyone... why do the Liberals continue to get support? The only conclusions I come to: 1) The Canadian people distrust the Conservatives that much more... 2) Canadians really don't want to go to the polls right now and want to wait until February 2006 (read: if the liberals are ahead in the polls, the Conservatives will not force the election) 3) Canadians are so used to getting ripped off by their politicians they just see this as business as usual... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-06-2005, 07:46 AM	#64 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I agree OFKUO... it would be nice to have a government we could trust. Now if everone would just make me the supreme dictator I will make sure there is no more corruption... I promise. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-09-2005, 03:29 AM	#67 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Yakk... that's about how I see it. I am just amazed that it is playing out this way... Usually when the media exposes something as odious as "adscam" the public howls for blood... I would say it is a combination of the above plus the fact that Martin wasn't PM when it occurred... I'm just impressed that we are mature enough to wait for the Gomery results. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-09-2005, 08:08 AM	#69 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	OFKUO... it comes down to the fact that the conservatives, as they are today, will never get voted into power because Ontario and Quebec don't like their Social Conservatism (Quebec has a lot of other issues that get the Bloc elected). Ultimatley the issue is the voting block in Ontario. You would see very different results in Ontario if the Conservatives were more like the Mike Harris Conservatives and less like Preston Manning's Reform. As it stands, the NDP is too far left for most and the Conservatives to socially conservative. This leaves the only party left, the centrist Liberals for everyone else. I don't find it all that much of a head scratcher... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-09-2005, 11:31 AM	#70 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	Roughly: Ontario: 1/3 of Canada Quebec: 1/4 of Canada West: 1/4 of Canada Maritimes+Other: 1/6 of Canada If your party policies alienate 7/12 to 8/12th of Canada, you won't get elected. Does anyone know a decent Proportional Representation system that A> Doesn't make parties the be-all and end-all B> Gives results that are publically verifiable by humans without mechanical assistance C> Is otherwise as fraud-resistant as naive FPtP voting ? __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

05-09-2005, 12:36 PM	#73 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	If that's the case then it is probably people voting by force of habit more than anything else... My mother, for example, is a dyed-in-the-wool Liberal. It's what she has voted for just about, ever. She was horribly offended when my wife and I had an NDP sign on our lawn last election. You could also point to the strong support from the immigrant population that resides in and around Toronto... they largely support the Liberals because of the Libs progressive immigration policies. Who knows how much effect the same sex marriage issue will come to bear on this traditional voter base (did you see all the leaders at the Seikh Temple shilling for votes? Make no mistake that was directly related to the fact that there are votes to get there because many Seikh's are pissed about the same sex legislation). __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-11-2005, 02:19 PM	#76 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	By the way, what is everyone's take on yesterday's vote in the House of Commons? I think the Bloc and Conservatives are making asses of themselves by forcing the issue. The vote wasn't a non-confidence vote it was a proceedural matter. Why rush things? Even with the justification of Adscam behind they still come off like sour grapes... They should just wait until next Feb when Martin has promised to call the election. In the meantime just let the country get on with business. Of course their fear is that everyone in Canada will forget what has happened by the time Feb comes around... I just love that the Conservative and Bloc are working together... politcs makes strange bedfellows, no? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-12-2005, 05:25 AM	#79 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Martin is scared... he knows it is pretty much over. It really is just a matter of time. That said, the Con/Bloc seem be getting what they wanted, a vote on the budget is to go ahead next Thursday. This will be the confidence vote they've all been wanting. This should be a time for them to sit back and wait. Instead they continue to cry about the vote they won earlier this week... if they were smart they would keep the pressure on but stop with the whining... it really isn't helping them. They have one week until the vote. They need to be more strategic and less like tantrum throwing kids... The vote will be as close as one vote either way... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-12-2005, 08:19 AM	#80 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	Yup you're right. I think it's almost time for a new thread regarding the ridiculous soundbites of wild accusations from all parties that are sure to come. Let's see if they can come up with some new zingers rather than the old tired,...Liberal=corrupt,...Conservative=Satan,...etc,..etc,... etc,... My prediction on the budget vote. 1 vote difference. For who? Don't know. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.