Lebell

No one want's to pass them out en masse. Teachers who want to be armed should be allowed to be armed after proper training, just like airline pilots.

And do you mean cops or armed guards? Because at least cops have more training.

Being an armed guard (which many want) simply means you have a uniform and a permit to carry your gun. In other words, you are not much better trained than a teacher who has had firearms training.

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Tarl Cabot

Your quotes were a reasonably nimble dodge of my question.

Firstly, your own quotes clearly state that it was not additional RESTRICTIONS that created the improvement you cite; it was increased ENFORCEMENT of existing laws, which is what the NRA has preached for decades. However, it's encouraging that law enforcement is finally going after guns in the hands of criminals, instead of taking them away from law-abiding citizens.

Secondly, I said "crime," not "gun crime." One need only look to the upsurge of crime in England and Australia to see the result of taking firearms away from the aforementioned law-abiding citizens.

Manx

There is absolutely no logic to arming teachers, or airline pilots, or 7-11 clerks. Being trained in the proper use of a gun is not the same as being trained in the proper methods of protection. It only takes one criminal with a knife to hold someone hostage to demand the gun in the teachers desk to put a gun in the hands of a criminal.

If any person holding one of those jobs feels their life is in danger, they only need to find a new job. Conservatives should know this - I've heard it oft repeated when an employee doesn't like some aspect of their work environment (see the smoking ban thread).

samcol

No logic except this school shooting could of been stopped if a teacher had a gun, and 9/11, and daily robberies. My guess is that if people knew 7/11 clerks were packing, armed robberies would of come to a screaching hault. Most thieves don't want confrontation, they just want to indimidate the person that's being held up.

Manx

Your claim of logic is best refuted with this statement from page 1:
As I said, having a gun and knowing how to shoot it is not even in the same ballpark as knowing how to deal with hostile situations. You skipped over that part when you quoted me.

CShine

"Hey, kid! Where you goin'?"

"I'm going to sharpen my pencil, Mr. Callahan."

"Oh yeah? Well, I know what you're thinking. 'Did he give me permission to get out of my seat or not?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky?....Well, do ya punk?"

crewsor

Sad, but possibly not far from true.

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ARTelevision

Amending my preference toward an unrealistic ideal - which I usually prefer not to entertain - IMO, policepersons would be better than armed guards. We'd have to be willing to fund police forces more than we typically do.

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Gilda

Amen. I agree that in an ideal world, having a police officer present at every school for every X number of students would be best.

However, you must take into account the cost. Police officers cost a lot of money. Unarmed security guards can handle the vast majority of security incidents in a school, and can be hired two or three for the cost of one police officer. Most schools will never have a shooting incident, but nearly all have fights and other smaller security problems that benefit from having a guard of some kind present. If you really feel the need to have armed personnel, requiring bonding and proper training in firearms handling and retention could alleviate the problem, without the enormous expense of hiring huge numbers of new police officers.

In any case, we have to keep in mind that these incidents are rare, that schools are generally safe places to be. Shooting incidents get publicity because, like plane crashes, they are so rare and so horrifying when they do occur. This doesn't mean that we need to make wholesale changes to the system.

Strange Famous

the obvious solution is the total disarmenment of America.

yes, some criminals will still be able to access illegal guns, but robbers and mugers dont go around shooting people for fun you know. If someone pulls a gun on me and demands my wallet, I'd give them my wallet. If someone tries it in America, they might be killed.

It is preferable to be robbed than to kill someone.

I would prefer my house to be broken into and my possessions to be taken from me, than to kill the robber.

I dont need to be protected by fire arms. I have never had a gun in my life and I dont know anyone who has a gun, and I also dont know anyone who has ever been shot, or shot at, or stabbed.

The civilian population needs to be disarmed... if you want to drasticlaly reduce gun deaths that is the only way. Does no one think it is a problem that you need metal detectors and armed guiards in HIGH SCHOOLS???

For anyone who grew up in Europe, this is incredible, maybe Americans are just used to it now.

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Bodyhammer86

Well, it's safe to say we're both pretty content. You, in the fact that you already live in your ideal society where this is the rule(England) and me, in the fact that you can't vote in this country.

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flstf

I know this doesn't have much to do with this thread but many of us in the U.S. believe we have the right to bear arms because eventually the citizens will once again have to oust a corrupt government. All governments eventually become corrupt and fail, history is full of them.

Strange Famous

yes, but America has 10,000 gun deaths a year and the UK has 100-200, you know?

Many people can own guns and be totally responsible. Unfortunately it is not easy to tell the difference between those people and the people who will mis-use them.

Anyone in the UK who really wants a gun can get one... and there are still shootings carried out by criminals... I guess the argument the gun enthusiast would have is that pro rata the UK murder rate is similar to the US, but here people get stabbed or clubbed rather than shot... I dont have statistics to hand, but my own perception is that that simply isnt true. If you distribute freely weapons of lethal force,,,, I think that means more people are killed. And I should say, although I said no one in my school was ever shot... one kid did bring in a sawn off shot gun and point it some other kiids who were bullying him. He only meant to scare them (and I would guess t worked)... I dont know what happened to him, and the gun wasnt loaded... but he did get expelled.

In that situation, if we had armed guards in our school... that kid would have prolly been shot, or his gun probably would have been loaded... or maybe he wouldnt have risked it... but my opinion is that on the whole, guns tend to escalate things...

As for using guns against the government if they become corrupt... I dont think we live in the same world as the one in which that idea existed. You cannot defend yourself against the power of the state with a rifle or a hand gun.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Bodyhammer86

Actually, our forefathers weren't exactly well equipped and were generally armed with muskets, but they still were able to win the revolution. As for that kind of scenario happening today, there's a nice little discussion on the moorewatch website about it. Feel free to read it.

More food for thought: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/downl...Facts_v3.2.pdf

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timalkin

We'll consider this option as soon as you get it to work in your own country, i.e. never.

What this whole debate boils down to is that some people love to be victims of crime. When confronted by a criminal intent upon his destruction, some people prefer to roll over and show their soft underbelly because guns are bad, mkay? I won't lie to you, if somebody threatens my life, their life is forfeit. My life is way more important that a criminal's life. More importantly, I won't give a criminal the benefit of the doubt. Gee, maybe they just want my new stereo. Maybe they don't want to rape and torture my wife and kids. Sorry Mr. Criminal, if I feel like my life is threatened, YOUR life is forfeit.

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samcol

Exactly. Every person has the right to defend themselves. No man made law will ever take that away from me.

raveneye

This is true but it sidesteps the important question: defend themselves with what? Would you be OK if your next door neighbor had a howitzer for every family member?

I think all reasonable people would agree that there has to be a line drawn, somewhere.

roachboy

few things make me more optimistic about america than the idea that folk would rather turn elementary schools into dodge city--conflicts into showdowns at high noon in front of kittys saloon--by arming everybody--than entertain the idea that there might--just might--be something fucked up about the american fetishism of guns---or that there might be something insane about the suggestion that teachers teach with a gun strapped to them.

but notice how the argument works:

to oppose it, like i said earlier, is to open up the possibility of a conservation about gun control, which is a clear wedge issue that seperates the right from sane. and look how this has shaken out here: exactly as you might expect.
this is how the right media apparatus galvanizes the troops after a tough week of unfortunate reality.

all this from a crackpot press release floated by the nra in an effort to contain damage that might follow from yet another school shooting.
which floated into the right media apparatus from tactical reasons.
a press release containing a suggestion that will never--ever--be put into effect.
a press release the argument of which is nearly psychotic in its implications.
an argument that conservatives actually defend because to oppose it implies gun control.

well done folks.
there is no reason not to be optimistic about america.
clearly the education of children would be greatly improved by arming everyone involved.
what a great idea.
no doubt there is abundant data to support the correlation of improved education and weapons proliferation.
i am sure that they will present this information, now that they have been asked for it.

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Strange Famous

to be honest, it is futile to debate with people who's minds are made up and will not change. Like I said, every nation will have as much gun death as they can tolerate. It is hard for me to understand how emotive an issue it is to some Americans, I would never want a gun and I live in a society where a lot less people get shot because hardly anyone has guns... but I dont know. I'm kind of with Bill Hicks:

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

pattycakes

if a security guard shot a student, even if he was on a killing spree......
lets just say


THE SHIT WOULD HIT THE FAN

__________________

The_Dunedan

I love how Strange Famous ( and others ) ignore the incontrivertable ( and often mentioned ) fact that the defensive use of a firearm stops somewhere between 80,000 ( VERY lowball estimate ) and 2,500,000 ( most accepted figure ) crimes every year in the US.

I love how they ignore the incontrivertable fact that States with shall-issue Concealed Carry have seen an accelerated drop in crime, a drop which is significantly -greater- than the nationwide average.

I love how they ignore the fact that nations with strict Victim Disarmament laws in place ( with one exception; Japan ) all have rates of violent crime which are either higher than that of the US, or are rapidly approaching it.

I love how they expect "the Government" or "the Police" to protect us, even though the nationwide average response-time for cops is just over twenty minutes.

I love the classist bias they exude when they tell people to "wait for the professionals" in areas where the cops won't go, or when they tell inner-city victims to "move to a better area!"

I love the rediculous implication that scratching a rapists face with some keys will put him out of the fight, but shooting him twice with a .45 will only make him angry.

I love the explicit sexism in their frequent arguement that "A woman would just be disarmed and have her gun used against her!" As if a quick pull of her trigger wouldn't render the question academic. "Silly little girl" they say "Leave this to the Big Strong Policemen. You might hurt yourself."

I love the presumtion that a civillian who practices 100+ rounds every week would miss and kill Non-combatants, but a cop who fires his weapon twice a year to qualify is a Pistol God Of Accuracy Who'd Never Miss Because Of His Advanced Training.

I love the cognitive dissonance associated with the notion that "Assault rifles and handguns are only good for killing huge numbers of people," which is why the cops need them to protect us.

I love how, every time a Victim Disarmament statue is removed, they predict bloodbaths which never happen.

I love how they think that our guns are "substitute cocks;" which is why so many women own them and I own a 2" snub-nose.

And I ESPECIALLY love how they think passing a law will magically make people like me, my family, my friends, and ( I imagine ) several others on this board turn in our Evil Black Phallic Weapons Of Doom And Destruction.

tecoyah

Somehow....I simply do not feel this...."love" you profess for they

let us not react to the above as is the norm here....ok

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Lebell

Why not?

He makes good points.

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tecoyah

very well....please continue

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Pacifier

Most accepted? You mean published by the NRA and faithfully believed by every "gun nut".
The fact that the already extremly highe crime rate in the US could even be higher would worry me though.

source?

source?

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"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Pacifier

Most accepted? You mean published by the NRA and faithfully believed by every "gun nut".
The fact that the already extremly high crime rate in the US could even be higher would worry me though.
What is wrong with your society?

source?

source?

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

The_Dunedan

1: Actually, no. Originally published by Gary Kleck, verified by John Lott in "More Guns, Less Crime" and now re-verified by the FBI Uniform Crime Survey. ( "Targeting Guns" by Dr. Gary Kleck, Florida State University, 1997 )

2: FBI Uniform Crime Report

3: Ministry of Justice ( Holland ) "Criminal Victimization In Seventeen Industrialized Countries" ( 2001 )
Australian Bureau Of Statistics; "Crime And Justice; Crimes Reported By Police"

The above are all sourced from the following .pdf;
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/downl...Facts_v3.2.pdf

Heavily sourced and cited.

Stare At The Sun

You know you were thinking it.

On a more serious note, I don't think that giving teachers guns is the way to go, as they would have to be taught how to shoot them, and personally, I can't imagine a 1st grade teacher, who, like mine was, is 80 years old, and is half senile, shooting someone.

However, my 12th grade world history teacher was a marine, and could easily take out some punk kid with a shotgun from 50 yards. Honestly though, even if you gave all these teachers guns,it wouldn't prevent much, it might even increase the risk over time, especially if the teacher sprays and prays.

I think prevention, and identification of the youths that are at risk is the most important thing. A child could always bring in a machete or a sword instead of a gun, or, an explosive, and still injure or kill a lot of people. Teachers can't be everywhere at once.

It's a tough problem, it really is, however, gun control is obviously not the way to deal with this.

liquidlight

You're making the common, and often incorrect, assumption with this statement that the guns that are illegal were manufactured in America or ever existed as legal guns.

The truth of the situation is that there are a large number of non-American gun makers, Israeli, Swiss, and Russian to touch on some of the more popular ones, and that our government has zero control over any of these companies. Some of the guns that they make are barely legal in the countries where they are manufactured.

Banning the guns in America is not going to stop their production outside of our borders, and it is also not going to stop the already occuring illegal traffic of those guns into this country, on the contrary it's going to make it much more lucrative and profitable.

And also what about military armaments? To remove the illegal guns from circulation at their source you would have to stop making the firearms that are designed and intended for our soldiers. Granted, these start as legal guns, but if they were the only readily available weapons I would imagine them becoming a target for crime very quickly.

Please don't forget that when addressing the control of guns there are factors that are larger than the community involved or even simply our own nation.

Going back to arming teachers why should it be an all or nothing proposition? Being older and female doesn't decrease a persons capacity for rational judgement, or their aim in most cases. If the ability for teachers to carry guns were made optional and required certain training and qualification, much like an air marshall, what would happen to the behavior of the student that's only bringing weapons in to show off? Do you think they might hesitate a bit more if they have to wonder which teachers are armed, which are carrying concealed carry weapons?

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alansmithee

One big problem I'm seeing with arming teachers is what would determine when it's ok for the teacher to even use the gun. Earlier in the thread someone was saying that even if there's a rampaging student and a teacher were to shoot him, the shit would hit the fan. And it undoubtedly would-there would be lawsuits, probably an arrest, and all sorts of chaos. Simply because teachers aren't given the same leway in dealing with criminal students. In most cases, it's even considered assault if a teacher restrains fighting students.

Does anyone have any idea how arming teachers would actually be implemented? What kind of standards would be set up for allowing teachers to use the firearms?

roachboy

it will never be implemented.
it is not a serious suggestion.

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it make you sick.

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arch13

Slight issue with all of your suggestions:

This was on an Indian reservation.
Even if a law was created giving teachers the right to carry arms, it would have no meaning there. Likewise, the tribe could pass a law arming teachers, and it would not apply outside the tribe.

Keep in mind, this was not actually in the United States. I know that is hard to accept, and some think it is silly, but tribes are independent nations seperate from the United States. Our laws and rights do not apply there. get pulled over for speeding in a reservation, and you will discover real fast that you do not have your constitutional rights, like due proccess.

As for those advocating arming teachers inside the United States (as opposed to in Independent Tribal nations), please explain who pays for the guns and training. Is there pay increased from having to work in a dangerous environment given how many schools have had shootings? (Trick question, no teachers pay has been increased for sustaining a threatening environment daily)

Your arguments are meaningless without explaining / suggesting the funding that makes it happen.

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Locobot

It's weird that the pro-gun crowd doesn't understand that wack-a-doo suggestions like "arm all teachers" soon after a tradgedy like the shooting in Bemidji actually hurts their cause. It gets people, as we see here, talking about complete disarmament (also wack-a-doo). I know that gun safety and security was once a major component of what the NRA taught, what happened?

The_Dunedan

Locobot;
It still is. Such things comprise well over 50% of the NRA's annual budget.

However, you have to realize that the pro-gun groups are not the first people to jump on this; they almost never are. Within 12 hours of any mass shooting, without exception, the Victim Disarmament crowd is dancing in the still-drying blood, trying to get their anti-rights agenda into the public eye. For example, The Brady Bunch and VPC used the Red Lake Shooting as an excuse to pontificate upon the need for the Assault Weapons Ban; this despite the fact that no "assault weapons" were used in the incident. The pro-rights folks are responding to the insane, gleeful reactions of The Brady Bunch and VPC, -not- the other way 'round. Anti-rights groups like Brady are notorious for using statistics and quotes which are fudged, taken out of context, or outright lies. Their figured on "X children per day killed" are one famous example; they include everyone up to age 19 as a "child" and throw in justified self-defense shootings to bolster their numbers even further. The rediculous Kellerman "43 times" study has been debunked for over a decade, yet they still cite this work of fiction. They are not above using the victims of a tragedy like this to advance their agenda, even when the survivors of those victims ask them not to ( as happened after Columbine. )

The suggestions of the NRA et al are far from "wack-a-doo," as you put it; as I pointed out earlier it has worked like a charm in Israel.

Locobot

Sorry, but of the 51 headlines hit with "red lake shooting" on the site where this article comes from "NRA leader advocates guns for teachers" was the only one actually suggesting a solution to the problem of school shootings. You know why this headline exists? Because it's wack-a-doo and thereby grabs readers. The NRA may not be the only group using school shootings to further their political agendas, but they are the only one that is crass and tasteless enough to use these events to champion easier access to guns.

re: Israel...First of all what you say about attacks on Israeli schools is patently false--negated easily by the most cursory google search. Secondly are you seriously equating Palestinian terrorists with the estranged teens and pre-teens committing the shootings in our country? Should we bulldoze their parents homes?

It think there is a basic watershed of fear which decides how people feel about concealed carry laws and recommendations like those suggested in this thread. What the gun coterie doesn't understand is that the level of fear and repression that these laws would create would be much worse than a society where ostensibly everyone is unarmed. The paranoiacs running the NRA are essentially afraid and cowering at all times and therefore see no difference.

The_Dunedan

re Israel; Please provide proof. I do not know of any attack on an Israeli school since they decided to arm their teachers in the 1970s. If you can provide proofs otherwise, I will retract my statements. Secondly, I am not equating Palistinian terrorists with school shooters; the Palistinians are infinitely more dangerous, proficiant, and committed. Ergo, small-time fuckheads like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold would be even more easily dissuaded.

As a member of the "gun cotierie" myself, I'd also like to comment on your "watershed of fear" comment by saying that I'd rather walk naked through Dallas than fully armed through Soho. Rates of violent crime in gun-hostile cities, states, and nations are almost universally higher than in gun-friendly cities, states, and nations. There is a reason for this; psychopaths and criminals prefer unarmed prey.

Locobot

I already did. But I'll make it even easier for you. The 2nd link is dated 1997...

I think we'd all prefer if you didn't walk around anywhere naked thanks. Are you seriously touting Dallas as an example of the concealed carry miracle? Did you know that Dallas crime rates are the worst in the nation? (Mar. 19 2005) I suppose walking around naked might be an effective strategy to keep from being robbed.

The_Dunedan

Actually, you just proved my point -for- me, thanks. Those links you provided show a single successful school shooting; in 1974 It was shortly after the shooting you mention that Israel armed its' teachers, and they havn't had a successful attack since. The second link/article references a shooting which took place off school grounds and in an area where their teacher was prevented from carrying a weapon.

As for this second article:
1: Try comparing the rate of violent crime in Dallas to that of Washington DC; victim-disarmament capital of the country and one of the Top 5 most dangerous cities for over 30 years now. ( Murder rate; 60+ per 100,000 )
http://www.safestreetsdc.com/subpages/murdercap.html
http://www.cabarfeidh.com/2004/06/ba...ington-dc.html

2: I'll admit that Dallas seems to be somewhat of an anomaly in the concealed-carry phenomenon. However, its' rate of violent crime is dropping along with the rest of the country, and it also has to deal with factors that many more northerly cities don't, such as the increase in crime which is associated with certain segments of the illegal immigrant population. How do you, however, explain the greater-than-average drops in violent crime in those areas which have enacted CCW? How do you explain the precipitous rise in violent crime in the UK and Australia since their near-total gun ban?

Locobot

Actually no. The second link (which I already directed you to) was dated 1997. The article you tout as "proving" you right actually gives no mention of this leading to the mandate that teachers be armed. You can split hairs all you want but there has been a multitude of attacks on Israeli schools since 1974.

The_Dunedan

Miscommunication:

The first link on that Google page ( the one I mentioned above ) references the last successful school-shooting in Israel, which was in 1974. The second link references a shooting in 1997 which took place off school grounds, and in a Victim Disarmament Zone. It is therefore irrelevant to your arguement.

There have been -attacks- on schools, yes. I do not recall denying that. If I did so, I misspoke. There have not, however, been any successful such attacks since 1974; all attackers either lost their nerves, or were killed by their intended victims.

Edit: I just checked my original post on this thread. I did indeed misspeak myself. I apologize for my imprecision.