A shooting after nightfall - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mephisto2 · 01-20-2005, 04:51 PM

The following is an account by Getty Images photographer Chris Hondros from Tal Afar, Iraq, about 40 miles west of Mosul.

Quote:

A routine foot patrol -- a dozen or so men from a platoon, carefully walking the dusky streets of Tal Afar just after sundown.

Usually little more happens than finding someone out after curfew, patting him down and then sending him home. On daylight patrols, sometimes, troops stop to briefly play with children or even drink tea. On evening patrols -- past curfew -- no one is on the streets, and the men are extra-vigilant and professional.

Tal Afar is an ethnically mixed town, though primarily Turkoman, and had only days before been the scene of a gun battle between U.S. forces and local insurgents.

On the evening of Jan. 18, as we made our way up a broad boulevard, in the distance I could see car making its way toward us. As a defense against potential car-bombs, it is now standard practice for foot patrols to stop oncoming vehicles, particularly after dark.

"We have a car coming," someone called out as we entered an intersection. We could see the car about a 100 meters away. The car continued coming; I couldn't see it anymore from my perch but could hear its engine now, a high whine that sounded more like acceleration than slowing down. It was maybe 50 yards away now.

"Stop that car!" someone shouted out, seemingly simultaneously with someone firing what sounded like warning shots -- a staccato, measured burst. The car continued coming. And then, perhaps less than a second later, a cacophony of fire, shots rattling off in a chaotic, overlapping din. The car entered the intersection on its momentum and still shots were penetrating it and slicing it. Finally, the shooting stopped, the car drifted listlessly, clearly no longer being steered, and came to a rest on a curb. Soldiers began to approach it warily.

The sound of children crying came from the car. I walked up to the car and a teenaged girl with her head covered emerged from the back, wailing and gesturing wildly. After her came a boy, tumbling onto the ground from the seat, already leaving a pool of blood.

"Civilians!" someone shouted, and soldiers ran up. More children -- it ended up being six all told -- started emerging, crying, their faces mottled with blood in long streaks. The troops carried them all off to a nearby sidewalk.

It was by now almost completely dark. There, working only by lights mounted on ends of their rifles, an Army medic began assessing the children's injuries, running his hands up and down their bodies, looking for wounds. Incredibly, the only injuries were a girl with a cut hand and a boy with a superficial gash in the small of his back that was bleeding heavily but wasn't life-threatening. The medic immediately began to bind it, while the boy crouched against a wall.

From the sidewalk I could see into the bullet-mottled windshield more clearly. The driver of the car, a man, was penetrated by so many bullets that his skull had collapsed, leaving his body grotesquely disfigured. A woman also lay dead in the front, still covered in her Muslim clothing and harder to see.

Meanwhile, the children continued to wail and scream, huddled against a wall, sandwiched between soldiers either binding their wounds or trying to comfort them. The Army's translator later told me that this was a Turkoman family and that the teenaged girl kept shouting, "Why did they shoot us? We have no weapons! We were just going home!"

There was a small delay in getting the armored vehicles lined up and ready, and soon the convoy moved to the main Tal Afar hospital. It was fairly large and surprisingly well outfitted, with sober-looking doctors in white coats ambling about its sea-green halls. The young children were carried in by soldiers and by their teenaged sister. Only the boy with the gash on his back needed any further medical attention, and the Army medic and an Iraqi doctor quickly chatted over his prognosis, deciding that his wound would be easily repaired.

The Army told me it will probably launch a full investigation.

I was going to post the series of photographs until I realized that as it showed children it would contravene TFP policy. You can view the "photo essay" at http://www.newsday.com/news/nationwo...ig-pix&index=1

Now, why did I post this story? Well, not to condemn the soldiers. Whilst it would have been nice for more than one second to have passed before the warning shots and the fatal fuisilade, I don't presume to criticise their actions. I have my personal opinion, but I was not there and am not constantly under attack.

However, this is an example of why so many Iraqi's are rising up against the US occupiers. It is terrible, tragic situations like these that only foster more hatred and insurgency. This story should serve as an explanation to both sides of this debate.

To the liberals, thank yourselves that you were not in those soldiers shoes, paranoid, frightened, presented with an oncoming car after curfew, with seconds to judge whether you and your comrades were about to be killed, deciding whether to shoot in defence or wait for possible obliteration.

To the conservatives, consider these innocent people. Consider the impact this will have on the children, the family, their friends, their neighbours, and ask yourselves "What would you do?" Would you not fight those who had done this to you, your family, your friends? Would you simply sit back and thank the Americans for the elections? At what cost liberty?

Not everyone who is fighting the US occupiers are Al Queda and this is the reason why.

This should be a lesson to us all on TFP. Will it change anything? No it will not.

Will it make both sides (on this board) better understant the realities of this war? Maybe.

Just maybe.

Mr Mephisto

Rdr4evr · 01-20-2005, 05:07 PM

This story was also brought up in the second page of the following thread:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...t=80390&page=2
I also agree about the less than a second issue as I posted it there as well. I quoted myself below:

Quote:

According to the article they didn't have much a chance to stop as the soldiers fired at them less than a second after the warning shots. These people probably hear gunfire everyday, they didn't even have a chance to react.

cj2112 · 01-20-2005, 05:11 PM

Thank you for posting this and especially for posting your remarks on the situation. As I pondered the events that occured, I was reminded of just how lucky i am to have been born and raised in a country that is for the most part politically stable. I try to put myself in both the soldier's and the citizen's shoes, however i honestly have no reference point. I can't begin to imagine the the things both groups people face everyday.

Seaver · 01-20-2005, 05:15 PM

It's sad that it was an innocent family. But I was not there and will never condem soldiers for acting in self defense even if the threat ends up being false.

Mephisto2 · 01-20-2005, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

It's sad that it was an innocent family. But I was not there and will never condem soldiers for acting in self defense even if the threat ends up being false.

No one is asking you to condemn anyone; just see the other side.

Is that so hard?

Mr Mephisto

Cadwiz · 01-20-2005, 05:39 PM

Stories like these show the real hell of war / conflict. There is no line between self-preservation and murder, there is a smudge of gray. There are many unanswered questions on both sides.
I do not condem the soliers, as I am sure they feared for their lives. Belive it or not, I do feel for the family that was destroyed. It is infact things like this that multiply our enemies.

scout · 01-20-2005, 06:35 PM

I pity both sides equally. The children for growing up without their biological parents, the family of the children for having to raise the children the best they can, the soldiers for realizing they killed innocent civilians and knowing they will have to live with that for the rest of their lives and last but not least the parent that wasn't driving for choosing a mate that obviously had little sense. Surely this wasn't the first checkpoint the driver had encountered. The driver surely knew he needed to stop at all checkpoints. To put it simply, I pity all of the people involved in this mishap except the driver. The driver put everyone in his vehicle in danger by refusing to stop. If there is any blame to be placed it lies solely with the driver. The real pity here is that the driver was killed after passing on obviously defective genes to five offspring. Pity it wasn't before.

Mephisto2 · 01-20-2005, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout

... and last but not least the parent that wasn't driving for choosing a mate that obviously had little sense. Surely this wasn't the first checkpoint the driver had encountered. The driver surely knew he needed to stop at all checkpoints. To put it simply, I pity all of the people involved in this mishap except the driver.

That's EXTREMELY disingenuous. Actually, it's not only disingenuous, but also downright arrogant. Or perhaps ignorant. Did you even read the article?

1) It was not a check-point, it was a patrol.
2) It was dusk
3) There was "less than a second" between the warning shots and the hail of bullets that killed the adults.

I should like to see you
i) react to warning shots
ii) bring a car to a safe stop
iii) raise your hands
iv) show your civilan status

all in less than a second.

Mr Mephisto

powerclown · 01-20-2005, 06:56 PM

Wow, man. What a spin.
Are you looking for a job on the editorial staff at al-Jazeera??

It was an ACCIDENT. Do you think they would have opened fire if they knew who was in the car? Do you think bands of American soldiers are roving the Iraqi countryside looking to kill Iraqi families? Don't you think that the average Iraqi is intelligent enough to distinguish between an accident and premeditated murder?

Calm down. There is no mass uprising of Iraqis. If there were, there would be dead American soldiers littering every street in Iraq. The only Iraqis "rising up against the US occupiers" are the ex-Baathists and fringe elements trying to hold onto power. Why you chose to characterize this as a legitimate reason for 25 million Iraqis to hate Americans is just sad.

scout · 01-20-2005, 07:09 PM

I not only read your article but I have read several articles. Your article conveniently doesn't mention anything about a checkpoint. However,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/h...far/html/1.stm

here to the right of the first picture it clearly states "checkpoint". So perhaps there is conflicting reports. Regardless, one may not have enough time to do all you stated in less than one second but it doesn't take a second for the brakelights to come on when the pedal is depressed. Neither article, either the one you posted or the one I refered to stated the speed of the oncoming car. I believe the oncoming speed would have had some factor. Nor does any report I've read say anything about what sounds anyone heard, with the exception of the link you provided, this also is another sense the soldiers relied on I'm quite sure. Did the car appear or sound like it was speeding up, continue at the same speed or was it slowing down? If the witnesses stated that the car was slowing or the brake lights was on when the soldiers fired then perhaps you would have some argument. In the article you posted it clearly states

"We have a car coming," someone called out as we entered an intersection. We could see the car about a 100 meters away. The car continued coming; I couldn't see it anymore from my perch but could hear its engine now, a high whine that sounded more like acceleration than slowing down. It was maybe 50 yards away now."

So the car was acclerating, not braking. One must take this into consideration, need I remind just the day before Baghdad had one of the worst days ever after 5 or more car bombs blew up all over the city.

Respectfully, I believe it is you that is being "EXTREMELY disingenuous" from the comfort of your armchair as you quarterback from half a world away. You are asking kids barely out of high school scared out of their minds who are responsible for not only their safety but the safety of their comrades to make a split second decision on who will die. Possibly him or one of his comrades or the person driving the car. Who sir would you choose? How would you react that would make this situation better?

Mephisto2 · 01-20-2005, 07:12 PM

powerclown,

Did you read my original post?

Let me quote it for you in case you didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Now, why did I post this story? Well, not to condemn the soldiers.
...
It is terrible, tragic situations like these that only foster more hatred and insurgency.
...
To the liberals, thank yourselves that you were not in those soldiers shoes, paranoid, frightened, presented with an oncoming car after curfew, with seconds to judge whether you and your comrades were about to be killed, deciding whether to shoot in defence or wait for possible obliteration.

Scout said " The driver put everyone in his vehicle in danger by refusing to stop."

Where did I say anything that implies it was NOT an accident? That was the whole point of my post.

Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2 · 01-20-2005, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout

Respectfully, I believe it is you that is being "EXTREMELY disingenuous" from the comfort of your armchair as you quarterback from half a world away. You are asking kids barely out of high school scared out of their minds who are responsible for not only their safety but the safety of their comrades to make a split second decision on who will die. Possibly him or one of his comrades or the person driving the car. Who sir would you choose? How would you react that would make this situation better?

Please explain to me how the following proves disingenuousness on my part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

o the liberals, thank yourselves that you were not in those soldiers shoes, paranoid, frightened, presented with an oncoming car after curfew, with seconds to judge whether you and your comrades were about to be killed, deciding whether to shoot in defence or wait for possible obliteration.

You know, even when someone who does not support the war posts a story about a tragic accident and asks each side of the political debate to consider how they themselves would react, some of you still find reasons to criticise or attack my motives.

It's no wonder opinions are becoming so much more entrenched each day.

Mr Mephisto

scout · 01-20-2005, 07:25 PM

HAHA nice sidestep. Clearly we have differing opinions. Nevertheless it changes nothing. I wasn't attacking you, quite the opposite as a matter of fact. I merely stated my opinion of the link and you Sir mentioned in that your opinion I was being disingenious.

Mephisto2 · 01-20-2005, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout

HAHA nice sidestep.

Please also explain how it was a side-step? It was the whole basis of the post. It was in the original post.

I have side-stepped nothing. You are arguing with shadows.

I also, respectfully, suggest we believe the reports of the man who actually witnessed and photographed the event and not the BBC's report. It was clearly NOT a check-point. And even if it were, how could the man be expected to react in less than a second?

I am not criticising the soldiers on the ground. Indeed, self-evidently and clearly stated, I am not. But I don't agree how you can say the driver was to blame. I think that's wrong. Shamefully wrong.

Yes it was an accident. Another pointless series of deaths, another family destroyed, more soldiers likely traumatized and burdened with guilt. But you think the driver is to blame?! I honestly can't see how. No one is to blame for this.

Mr Mephisto

scout · 01-20-2005, 07:32 PM

Perhaps it was the comment at the end that read something along the lines of .... "Not everyone who is fighting the US occupiers are Al Queda and this is the reason why." Clearly, here you stated your opinion and placed the blame on the U.S. soldiers. I was only pointing out a few reasons why perhaps you or I shouldn't be so quick to blame or to point fingers.

cyrnel · 01-20-2005, 07:36 PM

I pity the family and soldiers. None will be the same. Still, what in the hell were the parents doing driving their kids around late? It's been repeatedly demonstrated that the curfews are not casual nor optional, and checkpoints are serious business. That town is well aware of the conflict and resulting dangers. My first concern as a parent would be arriving home with the sun still high in the sky. Very sad.

scout · 01-20-2005, 07:36 PM

I also wonder why you can't find reason to fault the driver who clearly wasn't thinking clearly if he/she was thinking at all. The driver speeded up even after seeing the checkpoint or at the very least the American patrol {depending on which report to believe}. How can you possibly believe the driver shouldn't bear any if not all of the blame?

Mephisto2 · 01-20-2005, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout

Perhaps it was the comment at the end that read something along the lines of .... "Not everyone who is fighting the US occupiers are Al Queda and this is the reason why." Clearly, here you stated your opinion and placed the blame on the U.S. soldiers.

What the hell?!

No I did NOT

Reread that sentence. Where does this even mention blame for this incident?

What I was saying was that because of accidents like this, many Iraqis are fighting the US forces. What's so "controversial" or "accusatory" in that?! It's self-evident!

In Northern Ireland there were many cases where civilians were killed at check-points. Some were accidents, some were murder and some were just down-right SNAFU's. But these often "helped" promote recruitment to the IRA and similiar terrorist organisations. People who were personally affected by their relatives deaths reacted by joining para-military organizations to "fight back".

I honestly give up.

Believe what you want to. I know how I feel and I don't blame anyone.

Mr Mephisto

scout · 01-21-2005, 02:41 AM

Perhaps you truly don't blame anyone, however that last "Not everyone who is fighting the US occupiers are Al Queda and this is the reason why.." certainly made it appear, to me at least, you blamed the soldiers. It's truly an unfortunate incident that I'm sure everyone involved truly regrets. I cannot help but feel the driver was mostly at fault. This person [the driver] had their family in the car after dark and attempted to run a checkpoint or at the very least was attempting to acclerate past troops that was attempting to stop the vehicle they was driving. Perhaps concern for the safety of his family played into his/her fatal decision, we will never know. One thing for sure is you and I differ on opinions in this case and that's ok, it keeps everyone honest and I'd still buy you a beer

Peace!

Mephisto2 · 01-21-2005, 03:00 AM

I'll only drink it if it's not American! :-)

No but seriously. I'm going to the US next week and, in over five years worth of visiting, I still haven't found a decent pint! Please don't tell me that Miller Gold is the best you guys have to offer?

Mr Mephisto

cyrnel · 01-21-2005, 04:06 AM

What areas are you visiting? Perhaps we can point you at a good micro.

connyosis · 01-21-2005, 04:52 AM

This is really sad. That picture of the poor little girl crying almost made my cry.
I agree with Mephisto, no one is to blame here. The driver could not be expected to react within one second, especially at dusk. The soldiers cannot be blamed for this either. I'm sure they were all scared and had to make a split second descision on what to do. My first reaction was "Why didn't they wait a little longer than one second?", but then again who am I to say anything about this situation? I'm sitting in my comfy living room, far far away from danger.
It was an awful accident and we can all only hope nothing like this will happen again.

scout · 01-21-2005, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

I'll only drink it if it's not American! :-)

No but seriously. I'm going to the US next week and, in over five years worth of visiting, I still haven't found a decent pint! Please don't tell me that Miller Gold is the best you guys have to offer?

Mr Mephisto

I prefer Guinness Stout myself. I also agree they fail to make a decent pint domestically. It's a shame really that in a country this size we have to import decent beer.

Mephisto2 · 01-21-2005, 07:09 AM

Well, I'll be in San Jose (Silly Con Valley) all next week. And yes, before you've asked, I've tried Gordon Biersch. It's OK. Nothing spectacular.

I guess I was just rattling cages. I'm a Guinness, Heineken and Vokda/Redbull kind of guy myself. At least now that I've grown older, gotten sensible and given up hard drugs...

Mr Mephisto

cyrnel · 01-21-2005, 07:11 AM

Eh? Heresy! Avoid the bottles.

Try one different draft micro (as local as possible) every time you're out. Good stuff in them thar hills.

Lebell · 01-21-2005, 11:09 AM

May I point out to the assembled that it is the insurgency that purposefully uses tactics that they know will endanger the civilian population so that incidents like these are inevitable.

If I blame anyone, it is they who use car bombs in crowded markets, shoot at troops from groups of unarmed people, store munitions in schools, mosques and hospitals, etc.

martinguerre · 01-21-2005, 07:32 PM

lebell...how did we expect them to fight?

cyrnel · 01-22-2005, 12:27 AM

Does expectation have any bearing on recognition?

The_Dunedan · 01-22-2005, 11:13 AM

Mr. Mephisto;
If you're gonna be anywhere in the southern US, try to find some Iron-Clad Stout. It's been brewed in Charleston since 1866, and it's thick enough to stand a pencil up in. Closest thing to a decent pint of Stout we've got.

Lebell · 01-22-2005, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

lebell...how did we expect them to fight?

Yes, I've seen this sort of "ends justify the means" argument before.

I'm sorry, but if somebody invaded the US and I managed to stay alive and free to be a guerilla fighter, I wouldn't endanger innocents by firing from crowds, nor would I indiscriminately kill them with car bombs.

Have you seen the latest violence the "freedom fighters" are waging against the shiite majority?

So in turn I challenge you to explain to me how bombing shiite mosques and weddings is fighting to liberate Iraq?

martinguerre · 01-23-2005, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Yes, I've seen this sort of "ends justify the means" argument before.

I'm sorry, but if somebody invaded the US and I managed to stay alive and free to be a guerilla fighter, I wouldn't endanger innocents by firing from crowds, nor would I indiscriminately kill them with car bombs.

Have you seen the latest violence the "freedom fighters" are waging against the shiite majority?

So in turn I challenge you to explain to me how bombing shiite mosques and weddings is fighting to liberate Iraq?

No. I'm not saying that. The end they seek is unjust, the means they employ are horrific. I don't mean to be pissy...but i want nothing to do with an arguement that excuses such behavior by the insurgents.

But what the hell did we expect? When we decided it was a good thing to invade this country, did we expect the resistance to be conventional and obey the laws of war? No. Everything we knew should have indicated that they would fight brutally, asymetrically, and with out regard to civilian life.

We picked a fight anyways.

host · 01-23-2005, 10:08 AM

Every death in Iraq since the March 2003 invasion is the responsibility of one
misguided criminal; George W. Bush. Every apologist and defender of this
incompetent failure is complicit in his crimes to the extent that they encourage and enable his conduct of illegal, aggressive war. Denial and ignorance are prerequisites of supporters of Bush policies of death and destruction. Bush ignored the following and took his faithful and the Iraqi people down an avoidable route to despair, Many in America still don't recognize it....yet !

Quote:

"Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in â€˜mission creep,â€™ and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, there was no viable â€˜exit strategyâ€™ we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome."
George Herbert Walker Bush, A World Transformed, 1998

DEI37 · 01-23-2005, 10:25 AM

I strongly agree that the driver is to blame. There was a curfew, they were out AFTER it, they sped up (apparently) after the warning to stop, didn't start slowing down after the warning shots, and then all hell broke loose. I DO feel sorry for the children and the soldiers in this one. If a car that you're telling to stop, speeds up, that's a threat. The kids are innocent victims in this.

01-23-2005, 11:47 AM

Good Post Mr Mephisto.

How many people here have contravened a traffic law?

It's not a difficult thing to do. People have road accidents on a daily basis. The difference is that here, a failure to comply with the law of the road resulted in the orphaning of these children - a traumatisation of the soldiers involved (how would you get over the knowledge that you'd killed someone's mother and father?) - an increase in the level of distrust and dislike of the American presence, and another win for the insurgency.

All of these victims, after being pushed into this crazy situation by politicians who have made tough decisions on our behalf. The current situation is sponsored by our tax dollars. We are paying for this to happen, and the rest of the world knows that every bullet or bomb that kills an Iraqi civillian was paid for by the American, British and other associated tax-payers.

How angry did we get when we saw Gadaffi sponsoring the murder of westerners? How acceptable did we find Saddam's payments to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers? And the perception in the rest of the world is that we, the people of the coalition, are paying to support things like this.

How much of a stretch of imagination would it take to convince these orphaned children that the destruction of the west is something to believe in?

I'm not saying the soldiers are doing a bad job - I'm saying that things like this WILL continue to happen while foreign troops remain in Iraq. We have to accept that and continue with the current policy, or reject it, and decide what to do instead.

Are these the eggs that must be broken in order to make the metaphorical omlette?

What can we do if we want there to be a change?

Lebell · 01-23-2005, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

No. I'm not saying that. The end they seek is unjust, the means they employ are horrific. I don't mean to be pissy...but i want nothing to do with an arguement that excuses such behavior by the insurgents.

But what the hell did we expect? When we decided it was a good thing to invade this country, did we expect the resistance to be conventional and obey the laws of war? No. Everything we knew should have indicated that they would fight brutally, asymetrically, and with out regard to civilian life.

We picked a fight anyways.

Well, thank you for clearing that up.

I made that post because I have seen people on this board defend such tactics.

I agree, we SHOULD expect it and not be surprised by it.

What bothers me is a) when people want to cut and run when the inevitable tactics are used and b) is when people defend those who use such tactics.

host · 01-23-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Well, thank you for clearing that up.

I made that post because I have seen people on this board defend such tactics.

I agree, we SHOULD expect it and not be surprised by it.

What bothers me is a) when people want to cut and run when the inevitable tactics are used and b) is when people defend those who use such tactics.

I fear that our government, specifically the Bush administration did not learn
from the U.S. experience in Vietnam, and therefore, as a country, we are
destined to repeat it.

For too long, Bush and company will refuse to acknowledge that they have led our troops into a wasting and unresolvable conflict. They will go through
the pretense of training effective Iraqi security forces, and of facilitating the
creation of a credible and representative Iraqi government. Then, as the
death toll of our troops continues to mount, Bush will declare victory and
withdraw U.S. forces not assigned to the new U.S. bases in Iraq.

A short while later, the forces who are opposing our troops currently will
overwhelm the U.S. trained Iraqi secuirty forces, and Iraq will become what
it would have if Bush had simply withdrawn U.S. invasion troops in April, 2003.
The only thing in question is the number of U.S. casualties who will be named
on the Iraq war memorial on the mall in Washington. Someday, a president
will learn the lesson that, our military is best suited to fighting unconstrained
war to defeat an enemy that is a direct threat to our national security.
Warfare with clearly layed out justification from the start to the finish, with
a well planned exit strategy.

01-20-2005, 05:39 PM	#6 (permalink)
Cadwiz Insane Location: work	Stories like these show the real hell of war / conflict. There is no line between self-preservation and murder, there is a smudge of gray. There are many unanswered questions on both sides. I do not condem the soliers, as I am sure they feared for their lives. Belive it or not, I do feel for the family that was destroyed. It is infact things like this that multiply our enemies. __________________ Semper Fi

01-20-2005, 07:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
scout Psycho	I not only read your article but I have read several articles. Your article conveniently doesn't mention anything about a checkpoint. However, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/h...far/html/1.stm here to the right of the first picture it clearly states "checkpoint". So perhaps there is conflicting reports. Regardless, one may not have enough time to do all you stated in less than one second but it doesn't take a second for the brakelights to come on when the pedal is depressed. Neither article, either the one you posted or the one I refered to stated the speed of the oncoming car. I believe the oncoming speed would have had some factor. Nor does any report I've read say anything about what sounds anyone heard, with the exception of the link you provided, this also is another sense the soldiers relied on I'm quite sure. Did the car appear or sound like it was speeding up, continue at the same speed or was it slowing down? If the witnesses stated that the car was slowing or the brake lights was on when the soldiers fired then perhaps you would have some argument. In the article you posted it clearly states "We have a car coming," someone called out as we entered an intersection. We could see the car about a 100 meters away. The car continued coming; I couldn't see it anymore from my perch but could hear its engine now, a high whine that sounded more like acceleration than slowing down. It was maybe 50 yards away now." So the car was acclerating, not braking. One must take this into consideration, need I remind just the day before Baghdad had one of the worst days ever after 5 or more car bombs blew up all over the city. Respectfully, I believe it is you that is being "EXTREMELY disingenuous" from the comfort of your armchair as you quarterback from half a world away. You are asking kids barely out of high school scared out of their minds who are responsible for not only their safety but the safety of their comrades to make a split second decision on who will die. Possibly him or one of his comrades or the person driving the car. Who sir would you choose? How would you react that would make this situation better? Last edited by scout; 01-20-2005 at 07:14 PM..

01-21-2005, 04:52 AM	#22 (permalink)
connyosis Psycho Location: Sweden - Land of the sodomite damned	This is really sad. That picture of the poor little girl crying almost made my cry. I agree with Mephisto, no one is to blame here. The driver could not be expected to react within one second, especially at dusk. The soldiers cannot be blamed for this either. I'm sure they were all scared and had to make a split second descision on what to do. My first reaction was "Why didn't they wait a little longer than one second?", but then again who am I to say anything about this situation? I'm sitting in my comfy living room, far far away from danger. It was an awful accident and we can all only hope nothing like this will happen again. __________________ If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

01-21-2005, 11:09 AM	#26 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	May I point out to the assembled that it is the insurgency that purposefully uses tactics that they know will endanger the civilian population so that incidents like these are inevitable. If I blame anyone, it is they who use car bombs in crowded markets, shoot at troops from groups of unarmed people, store munitions in schools, mosques and hospitals, etc. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

01-21-2005, 07:32 PM	#27 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	lebell...how did we expect them to fight? __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

01-20-2005, 05:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
cj2112 Unbelievable Location: Grants Pass OR	Thank you for posting this and especially for posting your remarks on the situation. As I pondered the events that occured, I was reminded of just how lucky i am to have been born and raised in a country that is for the most part politically stable. I try to put myself in both the soldier's and the citizen's shoes, however i honestly have no reference point. I can't begin to imagine the the things both groups people face everyday.

01-20-2005, 05:15 PM	#4 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	It's sad that it was an innocent family. But I was not there and will never condem soldiers for acting in self defense even if the threat ends up being false.

01-20-2005, 06:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
scout Psycho	I pity both sides equally. The children for growing up without their biological parents, the family of the children for having to raise the children the best they can, the soldiers for realizing they killed innocent civilians and knowing they will have to live with that for the rest of their lives and last but not least the parent that wasn't driving for choosing a mate that obviously had little sense. Surely this wasn't the first checkpoint the driver had encountered. The driver surely knew he needed to stop at all checkpoints. To put it simply, I pity all of the people involved in this mishap except the driver. The driver put everyone in his vehicle in danger by refusing to stop. If there is any blame to be placed it lies solely with the driver. The real pity here is that the driver was killed after passing on obviously defective genes to five offspring. Pity it wasn't before.

01-20-2005, 06:56 PM	#9 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Wow, man. What a spin. Are you looking for a job on the editorial staff at al-Jazeera?? It was an ACCIDENT. Do you think they would have opened fire if they knew who was in the car? Do you think bands of American soldiers are roving the Iraqi countryside looking to kill Iraqi families? Don't you think that the average Iraqi is intelligent enough to distinguish between an accident and premeditated murder? Calm down. There is no mass uprising of Iraqis. If there were, there would be dead American soldiers littering every street in Iraq. The only Iraqis "rising up against the US occupiers" are the ex-Baathists and fringe elements trying to hold onto power. Why you chose to characterize this as a legitimate reason for 25 million Iraqis to hate Americans is just sad.

01-20-2005, 07:25 PM	#13 (permalink)
scout Psycho	HAHA nice sidestep. Clearly we have differing opinions. Nevertheless it changes nothing. I wasn't attacking you, quite the opposite as a matter of fact. I merely stated my opinion of the link and you Sir mentioned in that your opinion I was being disingenious.

01-20-2005, 07:32 PM	#15 (permalink)
scout Psycho	Perhaps it was the comment at the end that read something along the lines of .... "Not everyone who is fighting the US occupiers are Al Queda and this is the reason why." Clearly, here you stated your opinion and placed the blame on the U.S. soldiers. I was only pointing out a few reasons why perhaps you or I shouldn't be so quick to blame or to point fingers.

01-20-2005, 07:36 PM	#16 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	I pity the family and soldiers. None will be the same. Still, what in the hell were the parents doing driving their kids around late? It's been repeatedly demonstrated that the curfews are not casual nor optional, and checkpoints are serious business. That town is well aware of the conflict and resulting dangers. My first concern as a parent would be arriving home with the sun still high in the sky. Very sad.

01-20-2005, 07:36 PM	#17 (permalink)
scout Psycho	I also wonder why you can't find reason to fault the driver who clearly wasn't thinking clearly if he/she was thinking at all. The driver speeded up even after seeing the checkpoint or at the very least the American patrol {depending on which report to believe}. How can you possibly believe the driver shouldn't bear any if not all of the blame?

01-21-2005, 02:41 AM	#19 (permalink)
scout Psycho	Perhaps you truly don't blame anyone, however that last "Not everyone who is fighting the US occupiers are Al Queda and this is the reason why.." certainly made it appear, to me at least, you blamed the soldiers. It's truly an unfortunate incident that I'm sure everyone involved truly regrets. I cannot help but feel the driver was mostly at fault. This person [the driver] had their family in the car after dark and attempted to run a checkpoint or at the very least was attempting to acclerate past troops that was attempting to stop the vehicle they was driving. Perhaps concern for the safety of his family played into his/her fatal decision, we will never know. One thing for sure is you and I differ on opinions in this case and that's ok, it keeps everyone honest and I'd still buy you a beer Peace!

01-21-2005, 03:00 AM	#20 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	I'll only drink it if it's not American! :-) No but seriously. I'm going to the US next week and, in over five years worth of visiting, I still haven't found a decent pint! Please don't tell me that Miller Gold is the best you guys have to offer? Mr Mephisto

01-21-2005, 04:06 AM	#21 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	What areas are you visiting? Perhaps we can point you at a good micro.

01-21-2005, 07:09 AM	#24 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Well, I'll be in San Jose (Silly Con Valley) all next week. And yes, before you've asked, I've tried Gordon Biersch. It's OK. Nothing spectacular. I guess I was just rattling cages. I'm a Guinness, Heineken and Vokda/Redbull kind of guy myself. At least now that I've grown older, gotten sensible and given up hard drugs... Mr Mephisto

01-21-2005, 07:11 AM	#25 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Eh? Heresy! Avoid the bottles. Try one different draft micro (as local as possible) every time you're out. Good stuff in them thar hills.

01-22-2005, 12:27 AM	#28 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Does expectation have any bearing on recognition?

01-22-2005, 11:13 AM	#29 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	Mr. Mephisto; If you're gonna be anywhere in the southern US, try to find some Iron-Clad Stout. It's been brewed in Charleston since 1866, and it's thick enough to stand a pencil up in. Closest thing to a decent pint of Stout we've got.

01-23-2005, 10:25 AM	#33 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	I strongly agree that the driver is to blame. There was a curfew, they were out AFTER it, they sped up (apparently) after the warning to stop, didn't start slowing down after the warning shots, and then all hell broke loose. I DO feel sorry for the children and the soldiers in this one. If a car that you're telling to stop, speeds up, that's a threat. The kids are innocent victims in this. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

01-23-2005, 11:47 AM	#34 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	Good Post Mr Mephisto. How many people here have contravened a traffic law? It's not a difficult thing to do. People have road accidents on a daily basis. The difference is that here, a failure to comply with the law of the road resulted in the orphaning of these children - a traumatisation of the soldiers involved (how would you get over the knowledge that you'd killed someone's mother and father?) - an increase in the level of distrust and dislike of the American presence, and another win for the insurgency. All of these victims, after being pushed into this crazy situation by politicians who have made tough decisions on our behalf. The current situation is sponsored by our tax dollars. We are paying for this to happen, and the rest of the world knows that every bullet or bomb that kills an Iraqi civillian was paid for by the American, British and other associated tax-payers. How angry did we get when we saw Gadaffi sponsoring the murder of westerners? How acceptable did we find Saddam's payments to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers? And the perception in the rest of the world is that we, the people of the coalition, are paying to support things like this. How much of a stretch of imagination would it take to convince these orphaned children that the destruction of the west is something to believe in? I'm not saying the soldiers are doing a bad job - I'm saying that things like this WILL continue to happen while foreign troops remain in Iraq. We have to accept that and continue with the current policy, or reject it, and decide what to do instead. Are these the eggs that must be broken in order to make the metaphorical omlette? What can we do if we want there to be a change?