Legalizing Prostitution - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Fate · 11-15-2004, 05:32 PM

First off, I've already looked up the older threads in accordance to the word "prostitution" and havn't found a topic directly related to my question that's coming up.

I have to write a 5 to 15 page essay on a Sex-Related topic/issue, I chose Prostitution (if you havn't guessed by the title), it's about legalizing it. What I seek in relevance to this thread is ideals from different individuals, and numbers (for minute unpolished statistics). Also, if you could help me clean up my Thesis that would be great.

Thesis:
Legalizing and promoting regulated Prostitution is beneficial to the person(s) involved, the Province/State and over all societal structures in the bend.

(keep in mind the teacher for this subject isn't "anal" and hasn't set a standard for keeping it grammatically correct, structured appropriately, and so on. He's open minded to thoughts that progress beyond what's infront of everyday life. I'm pretty much saying, my essay doesn't have to sparkle, it just needs to look nice, and be qualified as 'actual research'. I doubt he's even going to read it word for word. Still, I like these things done well.)

so A:
In your opinion should prostitution be legalized (regulated)?
- A simple yes or no, and a one to two sentence answer would be perfect.

B: Morally, would legalized prostitution be acceptable? (on the basis, the women/men involved are physically safe, protected from exploitation, and so on)
- A simple yes or no, and a one to two sentence answer would be perfect.

C: What are the pro/cons to legalizing regulated prostitution?

I hope I didn't make any of the 3 questions biased.
Also if you want to discuss the questions and thread further, please do so in a paragraph after the questions, that way it keeps it easy for me to assess, and you can discuss to your hearts content.

Coppertop · 11-15-2004, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate

so A:
In your opinion should prostitution be legalized (regulated)?
- A simple yes or no, and a one to two sentence answer would be perfect.

B: Morally, would legalized prostitution be acceptable? (on the basis, the women/men involved are physically safe, protected from exploitation, and so on)
- A simple yes or no, and a one to two sentence answer would be perfect.

C: What are the pro/cons to legalizing regulated prostitution?

A: Yes. What happens between consenting adults is no one else's business.

B: Eventually, yes. See same answer as for above.

C: Pro: safer for the women involved for many reasons.

For the people about to post who oppose prostitution I ask this: why would an act that is otherwise legal and socially accepted (consensual sex between adults) be vilified by the simple exchange of money?

Gopher · 11-15-2004, 06:16 PM

A: Yes. Same answer as Coppertop.. if they want to do it, who are we to say they can't?

B: Yes, but I'm not religious, so it depends if you connect morals to religion.

Pro: It happens anyway, so if you legalise it safety standards will hopefully increase - people won't have to hide it as much (no fear of being arrested)

wnker85 · 11-15-2004, 06:41 PM

A) sure why not

B) The catholic church used to allow it as an acceptical sin

C) Pros people can buy sex if they want
Cons still risky IMO

But, this isn't my cup of tea, so to say. I won't be doing it anytime soon. But I do not think that it happens so lets make it legal is a real argument.

Stompy · 11-15-2004, 06:47 PM

so A:
In your opinion should prostitution be legalized (regulated)?

Yes. It's legal for someone to buy a woman a drink in a bar, then take her home (assuming she agrees) for a fantastic one night stand. How's that any different?

B: Morally, would legalized prostitution be acceptable? (on the basis, the women/men involved are physically safe, protected from exploitation, and so on)

It's never really been acceptable for a person to be very sexually active, so I don't think it'd ever be something you could just bring up with at the family table or anything.

C: What are the pro/cons to legalizing regulated prostitution?

I'd have to say health related issues. STDs, especially. Sterilization of people, devices, whatever.. There would have to be some kind of system to make sure people are checked fairly often for diseases, and... that would be very complicated.

Now, if they could come up with something that detects immediately.. prick your finger, get some blood, list off any diseases you may have, then it probably won't be a problem.

smooth · 11-15-2004, 07:11 PM

I don't support legalization of prostitution because of its link to the human slave trade.

If someone could address that aspect for me, I would change my mind.

FoolThemAll · 11-15-2004, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate

so A:
In your opinion should prostitution be legalized (regulated)?
- A simple yes or no, and a one to two sentence answer would be perfect.

B: Morally, would legalized prostitution be acceptable? (on the basis, the women/men involved are physically safe, protected from exploitation, and so on)
- A simple yes or no, and a one to two sentence answer would be perfect.

C: What are the pro/cons to legalizing regulated prostitution?

A: Yes. It's an activity with some degree of danger/risk involved, but I don't see that as sufficient justification for a ban.

B: I have to answer this two ways. Yes, legalizing prostitution is morally acceptable on that basis. No, legal prostitution is not morally acceptable on that basis. I approve of the legalization, but not of the activity.

(Oddly enough, you won't find me applying that reasoning to abortion.)

C: Pros: People of the Law concerned with this practice will be freed up to work in other areas which may be in need of help. Increased personal freedom.
Cons: Most likely an increase in this often dangerous, virtually always immoral act. It might become more socially acceptable.

tecoyah · 11-15-2004, 07:28 PM

I will address this for you.

Prostitution is not a forced profession. It has been with us for an extremely long time, and is respected as a form of employment in many cultures, or so is my understanding.
The primary dissent in our culture is derived from Christian Values, and has little bearing on the base morality of the profession as a whole. Should one decide to undertake this form of employment, it is of ones own volition, and is generally not due to having no choice in the matter.
Slavery, was and is a forceful removal of the rights of an individual, rather than an exercise of these rights.

Ustwo · 11-15-2004, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

I will address this for you.

Prostitution is not a forced profession. It has been with us for an extremely long time, and is respected as a form of employment in many cultures, or so is my understanding.
The primary dissent in our culture is derived from Christian Values, and has little bearing on the base morality of the profession as a whole. Should one decide to undertake this form of employment, it is of ones own volition, and is generally not due to having no choice in the matter.
Slavery, was and is a forceful removal of the rights of an individual, rather than an exercise of these rights.

My personal theory is the reason for the criminalization of prostitution is more due to wives and less due to Christianity.

As wives became more important, their displeasure of the men philandering increased to the point they were able to effect the practice.

For a culture at large, prostitution leads to wide spread venereal disease and as such any 'moral' ban would be rooted in good public health.

As a profession, I have no problem with it, moral issues do not concern me, but it is only lately we can claim that we can also monitor the problem of venereal disease.

smooth · 11-15-2004, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

I will address this for you.

Prostitution is not a forced profession. It has been with us for an extremely long time, and is respected as a form of employment in many cultures, or so is my understanding.
The primary dissent in our culture is derived from Christian Values, and has little bearing on the base morality of the profession as a whole. Should one decide to undertake this form of employment, it is of ones own volition, and is generally not due to having no choice in the matter.
Slavery, was and is a forceful removal of the rights of an individual, rather than an exercise of these rights.

Were you addressing this to me?

I should have been more explicit, I thought everyone knew that prostitution accounts for over 2 million women and children being enslaved and smuggled internationally.

It's been in the news for the past decade.

Very few of our US prostitutes are consenting adults. Even the bulk of those are impoverished, beaten, and controlled by violent men.

Young girls comprise a large segment of our prostitution population. They aren't consenting, and they aren't adults. Most often they are tricked by dreams of opportunity and sucked into a life of drug dependency.

The bulk of our prostitutes are enslaved women and children from other countries. They pour into our nation by the tens of thousands every year at the hands of crime syndicates who either promise citizenship and stable employment or snatch them from their villages.

I should also add that in no case that I know of do prostitutes have control over their money. They work for others--so I take issue with the notion that women and men singularly exhange money and relating this to some sort of contractual agreement.

The money either goes to the slave traders, pimps, or Madame.

Ustwo · 11-15-2004, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

Were you addressing this to me?

I should have been more explicit, I thought everyone knew that prostitution accounts for over 2 million women and children being enslaved and smuggled internationally.

It's been in the news for the past decade.

Very few of our US prostitutes are consenting adults. Even the bulk of those are impoverished, beaten, and controlled by violent men.

Young girls comprise a large segment of our prostitution population. They aren't consenting, and they aren't adults. Most often they are tricked by dreams of opportunity and sucked into a life of drug dependency.

The bulk of our prostitutes are enslaved women and children from other countries. They pour into our nation by the tens of thousands every year at the hands of crime syndicates who either promise citizenship and stable employment or snatch them from their villages.

I should also add that in no case that I know of do prostitutes have control over their money. They work for others--so I take issue with the notion that women and men singularly exhange money and relating this to some sort of contractual agreement.

The money either goes to the slave traders, pimps, or Madame.

I believe it is argued that if you take the illegal nature out of it, and had it somehow regulated, the dark side would be not nearly as bad either.

Its much like the arguments about legalizing narcotics, and of the two I think prostitution being legal is far 'safer' for society.

smooth · 11-15-2004, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I believe it is argued that if you take the illegal nature out of it, and had it somehow regulated, the dark side would be not nearly as bad either.

Its much like the arguments about legalizing narcotics, and of the two I think prostitution being legal is far 'safer' for society.

I have never seen anyone argue that. Apparently, it wasn't even recognized as a problem because it wasn't touched on by the people posting in this thread until I brought it up and explained that it is a problem.

There is no reason legalization of the sex trade would stop slavery and smuggling because the product would still be in demand. In fact, in places where it is legal, children prostitution is a huge problem--it hasn't gone away.

But if someone has a reason as to why legalization would stop slavery and smuggling, I'd like to hear it. Just saying it will occur is not convincing to me. I have read the reasons people believe narcotics legalization would result in positive benefits.

But keep in mind that rarely would one argue that drug use itself would dramatically decrease with legalization, only that we wouldn't be filling our prisons or having violence centered around drug turfs if it became legalized.

ARTelevision · 11-15-2004, 08:17 PM

I oppose legalizing prostitution simply because I prefer not adding more energy to the continuing trends toward the commodification of the human being, human sexuality, and the politicalization of the personal. I don't make social policy. I express an individual opinion.

Tarl Cabot · 11-15-2004, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

Were you addressing this to me?

I should have been more explicit, I thought everyone knew that prostitution accounts for over 2 million women and children being enslaved and smuggled internationally.

It's been in the news for the past decade.

Very few of our US prostitutes are consenting adults. Even the bulk of those are impoverished, beaten, and controlled by violent men.

Young girls comprise a large segment of our prostitution population. They aren't consenting, and they aren't adults. Most often they are tricked by dreams of opportunity and sucked into a life of drug dependency.

The bulk of our prostitutes are enslaved women and children from other countries. They pour into our nation by the tens of thousands every year at the hands of crime syndicates who either promise citizenship and stable employment or snatch them from their villages.

I should also add that in no case that I know of do prostitutes have control over their money. They work for others--so I take issue with the notion that women and men singularly exhange money and relating this to some sort of contractual agreement.

The money either goes to the slave traders, pimps, or Madame.

While I think that for the most part, you are correct, I also think that there are more exceptions to the above than you may be aware of.

There was just an article in my local paper (do they have "sweeps weeks?") regarding strippers and prostitutes. These days, there are so many internet ads for "escorts" that pimps or whatever are not as ubiquitous as in prior years. Simply put, the working girls don't need them as much.

I also had difficulty seeing a direct connection between legalization and the slave trade.

Yes, as you said, prostitution is linked to the slave trade, but I don't see legalization changing that for better or worse.

MSD · 11-15-2004, 08:22 PM

A: Prostitution would be safer, more sanitary, and economically more beneficial to the business, clients, and society as a whole due to regulations and tax revenue.

B: Morality is not an issue for me. Ethically, I see no reason to prohibit any person from doing something that he or she wants to do so long as it does not harm others in the process. A woman's vagina is her property, and if she wants to charge admission it's none of my business to tell her that she can't do that.

C:

Pros:
-Reduction in sexual assaults thanks to legal outlets for pent up sexual energy
-Reduction in stress when people have a legal way to relax (like a strip club, but better)
-(Hopefully) the decline of our society's unhealthy taboos regarding sex
-Decline in the human trafficking industry as an outlawed activity becomes a legal profession
-Decline in organized crime as one of their large sources of income suddenly becomes mainstream and open to competition from all sides

Cons:
-Conflicts between those who still believe that sex is sacred and those who have no problem with indulging
-Exploitation of low-income women who will be much more likely to turn to the sex industry as a way to make a quick buck

Just like drugs, I'm pro-legalization, but realize that there is no perfect solution.

smooth · 11-15-2004, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarl Cabot

While I think that for the most part, you are correct, I also think that there are more exceptions to the above than you may be aware of.

There was just an article in my local paper (do they have "sweeps weeks?") regarding strippers and prostitutes. These days, there are so many internet ads for "escorts" that pimps or whatever are not as ubiquitous as in prior years. Simply put, the working girls don't need them as much.

I also had difficulty seeing a direct connection between legalization and the slave trade.

Yes, as you said, prostitution is linked to the slave trade, but I don't see legalization changing that for better or worse.

Bluntly, I'm not interested in the exceptions--I'm interested in the regular victims of prostitution.

Also, those escort ads you are referring to--those are the ones I'm referring to that are brought over from Russia and Asia and forced into sex as an occupation to pay for their smuggling costs (HINT: they never manage to pay those debts off).

The "working girls" as you put it are sex slaves within very organized crime syndicates.

I'm hoping a LEO stumbles across this and can provide more information on how anti-prostitution sweeps help them get to the heart of the matter. The Law & Order episodes of junkies turning to sex are appalling in their own right, but the focus and energy is on the organized crime racket--not the local stripper going home with her favorite patron (which also apparently happens less frequently than people would like to believe--and I use like intentionally because somehow stripping and hooking turn out to be powerful male fantasies, but not particularly grounded in reality).

smooth · 11-15-2004, 08:41 PM

Fate, since you appear to be Canadian, I thought you might find these canadian perspectives interesting.

Quote:

Combating A Modern Scourge—Trafficking in Persons
by Peter McKinnon

A group of Malaysian women looking for a better life agree to be smuggled into Canada, only to be locked in tiny rooms and forced to work as prostitutes in Vancouver.

More than 20 illegal migrants—some under the age of 18—are discovered during a raid of Toronto massage parlours. The women and girls say they’d been promised legitimate jobs in Canada, only to be held against their will and forced into the sex trade.

Each day, around the world, thousands of women and men, desperately seeking better futures for themselves and their families, are lured into nightmarish traps. Others, particularly children, do not even choose to leave their homes and are abducted or sold.

The practice, known as trafficking in persons, has spread rapidly around the globe in recent years and has become the world’s fastest-growing form of international crime.

It has been called “the new global slave trade.”

The European Union estimates that 120,000 people are trafficked in Western Europe annually; the United States Department of State believes the annual toll worldwide to be between 800,000 and 900,000 victims.

Not all trafficking in persons involves forced prostitution. In many cases, victims are compelled to work in other hazardous occupations in sweatshops, agriculture or any profitable enterprise, coerced by threats of violence against them or their families.

Several factors have contributed to the recent proliferation in trafficking—but first and foremost, though, is money.

“Unfortunately, selling people—to brothels or sweatshops—is incredibly profitable,” says Ashley Garrett, of the International Organization for Migration (IOM), an agency dedicated to providing a humane response to migration issues.

“The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime estimates that crime syndicates make more than $8 billion each year from trafficking in persons.”

Indeed, trafficking in persons is so lucrative, only illegal drugs and arms generate more profits. And while the scourge of slavery is as old as recorded history, trafficking in persons is a modern phenomenon fueled by globalized trade.

“Migration patterns have shifted significantly,“ says Garrett. “In recent years, an increasing number of women have migrated to make money and provide for their families back home. Criminals devise a variety of schemes to exploit these women.”
Nature of the Crime

Two schemes—smuggling and trafficking—feature similar elements, but lead to dramatically different consequences for victims.

Smuggled migrants are released once they’ve arrived at their destinations; trafficked individuals, on the other hand, are sold and enslaved.

Many victims don’t know which category they fall into until it’s too late. In many cases, people in poor and war-ravaged countries answer advertisements promising jobs in the West. They agree to be smuggled across international borders, but end up losing their freedom.

To help raise awareness among Canadian judicial and law-enforcement officials, the Department of Justice and IOM hosted a seminar in early March for police, Crown prosecutors and immigration, customs and consular officials.

“Response to the seminar was overwhelming,” says Gillian Blackell, a Justice lawyer who organized the conference and co-chairs the federal Interdepartmental Working Group on Trafficking in Persons.

“Law-enforcement and judicial professionals were keen to find out more about this disturbing trend in organized crime, and share techniques and best practices on how to assist victims and prosecute offenders.”

At the conference, Justice Minister Irwin Cotler, a long-time international human rights advocate, pledged to make the fight against “this persistent and pervasive assault on human rights in our day” a top priority.

Cotler vowed Canada would become a global leader in the fight against what he called a “scourge against humanity.”

“Trafficking is an assault on human personhood, on human dignity, on human rights and, in particular, on the rights of women and children,” the Minister said. “While this is a truly global phenomenon, we in Canada are not immune from this nefarious bartering in human beings.”
14 languages

Canada has already adopted a multi-faceted approach to fighting trafficking.

To help prevent foreigners from being victimized, thousands of brochures—in 14 languages—are being distributed worldwide through Canadian missions and non-governmental organizations.

To complement existing Criminal Code provisions (such as kidnapping, extortion and prostitution-related offences), a specific offence of human trafficking was added to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. This offence carries some of most stringent penalties against human trafficking in the world—sentences of up to life in prison and fines of up to $1 million. The law also lists aggravating factors—such as subjecting victims to humiliating or degrading treatment—that courts can take into account when determining penalties.

On the international stage, Canadian officials have played an important role in the fight. Canada is one of the few western nations to ratify the United Nations Convention Against Transnational Organized Crime and related protocols against trafficking and smuggling.
Raising Awareness

At the conference, Cotler announced a 10-point proposal to bolster Canada’s efforts, both domestically and internationally.

The Interdepartmental Working Group on Trafficking in Persons, which includes representatives from 14 federal departments and agencies, has been mandated to devise a federal strategy to fight trafficking in persons.

As part of the strategy, officials will review the Criminal Code to create new provisions to deal with trafficking and will work with their provincial and territorial counterparts to improve inter-jurisdictional collaboration and coordination.

To increase public awareness, the Department will stage a public forum in partnership with Status of Women Canada and the Canadian Ethnocultural Council, and launch a national poster campaign.

Cotler also pledged to work with other countries in developing effective legislation and will meet with United States Attorney General John Ashcroft to discuss how the two countries can better work together “to tackle this transnational problem head-on.”

The Minister also announced the RCMP will set up a special investigative unit to coordinate domestic investigations and to conduct international probes with other countries. As well, the RCMP will join with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service to raise awareness among municipal police forces.

“If we are to succeed in combating this new global slave trade, this assault on innocents, a new Canadian and global constituency of conscience has to arise—a partnership between governments, domestic and international, with non-governmental organizations and individuals,” Cotler said.

“It took a constituency of conscience to end the slave trade in the 19th century. It will take a constituency of conscience … to overcome the new global slave trade in the 21st century. Working together, we will do it.”

Blackell, who has devoted much of her career to the issue, hopes Canada’s multi-faceted approach will help stem the tide in human trafficking.

“I believe that Canadians would be shocked to learn that such a despicable crime happens here,” she says. “And once they learn the facts, they’ll be motivated to eradicate trafficking in persons—not only here, but also around the world.”

--http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/dept/pub/jc/vol4/no2/page4.html

and here are a long list of links I googled: http://justicenetworkcanada.com/HUMAN.htm

I hope your essay addressed this very real aspect of prostitution. Either to suggest ways to address it if legalization were to occur, or just that you recognize it as an issue that must be weighed in the equation.

Coppertop · 11-15-2004, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

Were you addressing this to me?

I should have been more explicit, I thought everyone knew that prostitution accounts for over 2 million women and children being enslaved and smuggled internationally.

It's been in the news for the past decade.

Very few of our US prostitutes are consenting adults. Even the bulk of those are impoverished, beaten, and controlled by violent men.

Young girls comprise a large segment of our prostitution population. They aren't consenting, and they aren't adults. Most often they are tricked by dreams of opportunity and sucked into a life of drug dependency.

The bulk of our prostitutes are enslaved women and children from other countries. They pour into our nation by the tens of thousands every year at the hands of crime syndicates who either promise citizenship and stable employment or snatch them from their villages.

I should also add that in no case that I know of do prostitutes have control over their money. They work for others--so I take issue with the notion that women and men singularly exhange money and relating this to some sort of contractual agreement.

The money either goes to the slave traders, pimps, or Madame.

I think the crux of these problems lie in that it is illegal now. Illegal and unregulated. Of course pimps and such are going to dominate the industry as it is now. I imagine that if it were regulated as closely as, say, the adult film industry, it could create a safe environment for the women to work in. It wouldn't be perfect, of course, but what is? It would certainly be better than what we have now.

smooth · 11-15-2004, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

I think the crux of these problems lie in that it is illegal now. Illegal and unregulated. Of course pimps and such are going to dominate the industry as it is now. I imagine that if it were regulated as closely as, say, the adult film industry, it could create a safe environment for the women to work in. It wouldn't be perfect, of course, but what is? It would certainly be better than what we have now.

My understanding is that the adult film industry is self-regulating. And it doesn't seem to be doing so well internationally in terms of not exploiting women (it's more contentious in the US, but more clear-cut in developing nations).

But if you are arguing that regulation would reduce human exploitation and slavery, I'd like to hear the details. I would be pretty surprised to hear many people advocating stringent regulation, however.

How would the police determine who was legally here as opposed to smuggled in? The resources to create a regulating agency would be enormous, but how do they conduct regular inspections without wholesale violation of what our nation believes to be its right against governmental infringement of privacy?

I'd be interested in hearing how jons would feel about periodic 'inspections.'

All other cases of regulation by the government that I have heard center around the notion that government involvment results in subsidized activity or price-controlled behavior. Why would this be any different than regulating airlines, energy, or pharma corps?

smooth · 11-15-2004, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

I think the crux of these problems lie in that it is illegal now. Illegal and unregulated.

I don't believe that to be the case. Here are two very interesting reads on the subject regarding places where it is legal (Australia and Amsterdam), yet illegal and exploitative practices are still extremely rampant.

Quote:

Factbook on Global Sexual Exploitation

The Netherlands

Trafficking

In Amsterdam, Netherlands, 80% of prostitutes are foreigners, and 70% have no immigration papers, suggesting that they were trafficked. (Marie-Victoire Louis, "Legalizing Pimping, Dutch Style," Le Monde Diplomatique, 8 March 1997)

In the Netherlands, 33% of the prostitutes come from countries outside of the European Union, this increases to 50% in the larger cities (Altink, 1995) ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characteristic, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

Since 1990 in the Netherlands, the number of trafficked women from Central and Eastern European Countries has tripled. ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

In 1994 in the Netherlands, 69% of 168 trafficked victims were from Central and Eastern European Countries. (The Dutch Foundation Against Trafficking in Women, an NGO, "Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

There are at least 1,000 trafficked women in the Netherlands. (Altink, 1995, p.45). ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

In 1994, many victims of trafficking to the Netherlands from the underdeveloped countries had children, most of whom were left behind in the country of origin. Women and girls trafficked from Central and Eastern Eruopean Countries, were less likely to have children, probably because most of them were much younger. (IOM, 1995). ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

In 1994, the majority of trafficked women from Central and Eastern European Countries had traveled overland, usually by car (IOM, 1995). ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

Of the 155 victims of trafficking assisted by STV in the Netherlands, at least 50 (37 of whom were from the Central and Eastern European Countries) were unemployed or had never worked before leaving their country of origin. ("Trafficking and Prostitution: The Growing Exploitation of Migrant Women from Central and Eastern Europe," IOM, May 1995)

The Netherlands is one the most popular destinations in Europe of women trafficked from Ukraine and Russia. (Vladmir Isachenkov, "Soviet Women Slavery Flourishes," Associated Press, 6 November 1997)

80% of the women counseled were from the former Soviet bloc. (Marjan Wejers, director of the Netherlands' STV/Foundation Against Traffic in Women, Christina Ling, "Rights Activists Rap Ex-Soviet States on Sex-Trade," Reuters, 6 November 1997)

Policy and Law

The definition of prostitution in the Netherlands is now based on whether there was any coercion. Dutch authorities have even proposed a new concept: "full consent to exploitation of the self." Dutch policy has been held up as an example at almost every international conference. The Hague played a crucial part in drawing up the European action plan in preparation for the Beijing conference in September 1995, where the concept of "forced prostitution" was established for the first time a European government level. (Marie-Victoire Louis, "Legalizing Pimping, Dutch Style," Le Monde Diplomatique, 8 March 1997)

The Netherlands government, in response to increasing trafficking in women, amended its criminal law in 1991. The maximum sentence for trafficking was raised from 5 to 6 years, and to 10 years for the trafficking of children under 16 and/or accompanied by serious physical violence. (Marie-Victoire Louis, "Legalizing Pimping, Dutch Style," Le Monde Diplomatique, 8 March 1997)

The maximum penalty for alien smuggling in the Netherlands is one year. (Tass, 1995, "Trafficking and Prostitution: The Growing Exploitation of Migrant Women from Central and Eastern Europe," IOM, May 1995)

Official Response and Action

Although trafficking in women to the Netherlands and Belgium has risen police and immigrant authorities do not consider it a large problem. ("Trafficking and Prostitution: The Growing Exploitation of Migrant Women from Central and Eastern Europe," IOM, May 1995)

Prostitution

There are 250 officially listed brothels in Amsterdam, Netherlands as of 1997. (Marie-Victoire Louis, "Legalising Pimping, Dutch Style," Le Monde Diplomatique, 8 March 1997)

Most of the prostituted women in shop windows in the Netherlands are migrants from the Dominican Republic, Colombia, Venezuela, Ghana, Benin, Poland, Russia, the Ukraine, Lithuania, Serbia, Croatia, and the Czech and Slovak Republics. (Licia Brussa, "Transnational AIDS/STD Prevention Among Migrant Prostitutes in Europe," TAMPEP, 1996)

Prostituted women in shop windows in the Netherlands pay rent for the windows, about 150 florins (US$ 90) a day. The woman waits for male buyers in a room with a window that looks onto the street. The room contains the bed where she has sex and also lives and sleeps. In some establishments two women share a kitchen, a room for eating, a bathroom and toilet. At some sites the buildings comply with general sanitary and administrative rules for the municipality, men patrolling the streets assure security, rents are fixed, and neither minors nor victims of trafficking are officially allowed to work. In others, up to four women may use the same window room, share a single toilet, an improvised shower and no kitchen. In some cases, the women receive one towel and two sheets for use throughout the week. On the average, the women work between 12 and 17 hours a day, receiving from 10 to 24 clients, at a usual charge of 50 florins for 15 minutes sessions. (Licia Brussa, "Transnational AIDS/STD Prevention Among Migrant Prostitutes in Europe," TAMPEP, 1996)

The Association of Sexclub Owners has created an independent organization, Erotriker, which issues Amarks of quality (a grading system) to brothels who apply. The brothels are visited by inspectors who decide whether or not a brothel meets certain standards. (Jan H. Visser, "Legalizing Dutch Prostitution; Dutch Preparations for a Different Prostitution Policy, http://www/theblackswan.com/review/article7.htm)

There are an estimated 30,000 prostitutes in the Netherlands ("Sex tax Ticks off Dutch," Associated Press, 14 October 1997)

The Phillippines, Thailand, South Korea, Sri Lanka and Hong Kong are some of the primary Asian destinations for organized sex tours from the Netherlands. CATW - Asia Pacific, Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific)

Policy and Law

Prostitution is legal in the Netherlands, and has been defined as a form of work. 18 is the minimum age to work in the sex industry. (Jenifer Chao, "Dutch Prostitutes May Soon Be Taxed" Associated Press, 4 October 1997)

Parliament is expected to pass legislation to legalize and tax brothels giving the government a portion of the profits from the Dutch sex industry which, excluding the pornography sector, generates more than $500 million a year (Associated Press, "Sex tax. Ticks off Dutch," 14 October 1997)

Psychiatric patients from Vijvedal Hospital are being allowed to buy prostitutes as a form of therapy endorsed by Dutch psychiatrist Cecil aan de Stegge. Patients visiting the Club d'Amour in nearby Maastricht had rates reduced from £39 to £24 by Madam Nathalie. ("Cut-price sex sessions - you must be mad," Christine Aziz, The Observer, 19 October 1997)

Official Response and Action

Prosex, an accounting office that opened recently to give prostitutes tax advice, helps them register as self-employed "entrepreneurs" eligible for various deductions. 'Their clothes, mobile phones, travel expenses, even visits to the hairdresser can be written off as business costs,' Prosex director Han Brugmans said. As entrepreneurs, he said, about $11,500 of their annual income would be considered tax-free." (Jenifer Chao "Dutch Prostitutes May Soon Be Taxed" Associated Press (4 October 1997)

Prostitution Tourism

Leaflets warning against sex tourism were handed out in airports in Belgium, France, Germany and the Netherlands in July 1998, officials at the World Tourism Fair taking place in France said. ("Campaign against sex tourism launched at Paris travel trade fair," Agence France Presse, 26 March 1998)

-- http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/netherl.htm

The following is a longer article, so I hope people go to it and read it in its entirety so we can continue commenting on this aspect.

Quote:

What can we do about it? There’s been this big campaign to separate off trafficking from prostitution so that we don’t look at the system of regulation of prostitution. Particularly in Victoria we’re not supposed to do so. But we have legalised brothel prostitution here and that system leads to increased trafficking.

I’d like to give you a couple of examples of other countries where they use different systems of regulation to see if whether they may offer some alternative models. In the Netherlands until 2 years ago there was de facto legalisation of brothels. Brothels were not officially legalised but the prostitution industry was very much accepted and normalised in the Netherlands. The vast majority of women in the windows in Amsterdam and in brothel prostitution in Amsterdam are trafficked women.

It is in fact out of the Netherlands that, interestingly enough, the most significant ideological push to get prostitution recognised as simply work, as simply choice, and separate it from trafficking, has come. In the Netherlands, the concern about trafficking led to the formal legalisation of brothels which took place in 2000. Behind it was the idea that trafficking was pulling down the wages and the conditions of women from the Netherlands in prostitution.

-- http://www.cpcabrisbane.org/Kasama/2...laJeffreys.htm

Kalibah · 11-16-2004, 01:14 AM

Sure why not. I view it like drugs, those that would do it, or a large majority of them, are already doing.

I think very few people would like to try it, but arent because its illegal...

So people that WILL do it ARE doing it. IMHO.

Coppertop · 11-16-2004, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

My understanding is that the adult film industry is self-regulating. And it doesn't seem to be doing so well internationally in terms of not exploiting women (it's more contentious in the US, but more clear-cut in developing nations).

Well seeing as how I live in the US, that's where I advocate this happening. And yes, the adult film industry is very regulated.

Quote:

But if you are arguing that regulation would reduce human exploitation and slavery, I'd like to hear the details. I would be pretty surprised to hear many people advocating stringent regulation, however.

Again, I don't see much in the way of slavery in the US. And I would advocate the same level of regulation for it as exists now in a comparable (if not equal) industry, adult film.

Quote:

How would the police determine who was legally here as opposed to smuggled in? The resources to create a regulating agency would be enormous, but how do they conduct regular inspections without wholesale violation of what our nation believes to be its right against governmental infringement of privacy?
I'd be interested in hearing how jons would feel about periodic 'inspections.'

Um, driver's licenses? SSN? Other governemnt ID? And I think that inspections would not be unreasonable. People don't fret when the health inspectors check out the local diner, why should they when they check out the local brothel? I hardly think you'd see inspectors storming a room while the gal is mid coitus.

Quote:

All other cases of regulation by the government that I have heard center around the notion that government involvment results in subsidized activity or price-controlled behavior. Why would this be any different than regulating airlines, energy, or pharma corps?

What's your point here?

I still have yet to see you answer my question in my first post (if indeed you oppose it on moral grounds): why does the simple exchange of money make an otherwise socially accepted act immoral? If you oppose it only on the grounds that it would lead to increased slavery, well, I just don't see that happening in a well regulated industry. It certainly would be an improvement over what we have now.

Coppertop · 11-16-2004, 11:01 AM

Ok, I read the two articles provided. I don't see the direct correlation between legalized prostitution and slavery. Look at it this way: prostitution happens now, already. It is here, it ain't going away. We need to think about what we can do to help the women who are in the industry to regain control of their lives. All I've heard form you is to leave them where they're at. Which means with the pimps. What's your solution if not legalization?

happyman · 11-16-2004, 11:31 AM

In your opinion should prostitution be legalized (regulated)?
- A simple yes or no, and a one to two sentence answer would be perfect.

Yes, it should be legalized, regulated and taxed.

B: Morally, would legalized prostitution be acceptable? (on the basis, the women/men involved are physically safe, protected from exploitation, and so on)
- A simple yes or no, and a one to two sentence answer would be perfect.

Prostitution is going to happen, in some form or another, no matter what. If it's legal it's easier to keep people safe.

C: What are the pro/cons to legalizing regulated prostitution?
You can tax it, you can keep people safe, you can hopefully limit the spreading of disease.

smooth · 11-16-2004, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

Well seeing as how I live in the US, that's where I advocate this happening. And yes, the adult film industry is very regulated.

Again, I don't see much in the way of slavery in the US. And I would advocate the same level of regulation for it as exists now in a comparable (if not equal) industry, adult film.

Um, driver's licenses? SSN? Other governemnt ID? And I think that inspections would not be unreasonable. People don't fret when the health inspectors check out the local diner, why should they when they check out the local brothel? I hardly think you'd see inspectors storming a room while the gal is mid coitus.

What's your point here?

I still have yet to see you answer my question in my first post (if indeed you oppose it on moral grounds): why does the simple exchange of money make an otherwise socially accepted act immoral? If you oppose it only on the grounds that it would lead to increased slavery, well, I just don't see that happening in a well regulated industry. It certainly would be an improvement over what we have now.

Jesus Christ.

The adult film is self-regulated, but what does that even have to do with the topic?

I know you want it regulated in the US.

Why are you using an example like a diner? The police don't need to raid diners in order to see if they are in compliance. Maybe if illegal diners were around, that analogy would make sense. But they aren't, however, so you still need to explain how police or a regulating body would be able to differentiate between legal prostitutes and illegal ones without random raids on brothels.

And yes, jons are not going to appreciate being raided. Eating at a diner while it's inspected is not likely to ruin a marriage or create tension at home. I really hope others reading this realize how ludicrious the analogy was.

Obviously, the articles aren't about what would happen in the US, because it isn't legal here. Yet, they examine two places where it is regulated and legal, yet slavery and exploitation have increased.

You can't see the correlation between the two? You don't see it as a large problem in the US?

I can't help you, then. The articles made the connection more than clear. I also already pointed out that the sex slave trade is a huge business in the US. If you want to refuse to believe the fact of the matter, whatever.

It's becoming apparent that you want to be able to buy sex, your position has little respect for the women you want to buy sex from.

Coppertop · 11-16-2004, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

Jesus Christ.

The adult film is self-regulated, but what does that even have to do with the topic?

How does the adult film industry being self-regulated suppoort your argument? You think the self-regulation in effect for prostitution now (read: none) is better?

Quote:

Why are you using an example like a diner? The police don't need to raid diners in order to see if they are in compliance. Maybe if illegal diners were around, that analogy would make sense. But they aren't, however, so you still need to explain how police or a regulating body would be able to differentiate between legal prostitutes and illegal ones without random raids on brothels.

No, police do not raid diners to see if they are in compliance. In fact, I didn't use the word police, you did. I said health inspectors. But thanks for forming my opinions fo rme.

Quote:

And yes, jons are not going to appreciate being raided. Eating at a diner while it's inspected is not likely to ruin a marriage or create tension at home. I really hope others reading this realize how ludicrious the analogy was.

Your continued use of the word 'raid' is disingenuous. There wouldn't be raids were it legal. It would be health inspectors (or the equivalent) showing up. Not cops to arrest everyone on the premises (which raid implies). But nice straw man. And I think the people reading at home are intelligent enough to realize your tactics.

Quote:

Obviously, the articles aren't about what would happen in the US, because it isn't legal here. Yet, they examine two places where it is regulated and legal, yet slavery and exploitation have increased.

You can't see the correlation between the two? You don't see it as a large problem in the US?

I can't help you, then. The articles made the connection more than clear. I also already pointed out that the sex slave trade is a huge business in the US. If you want to refuse to believe the fact of the matter, whatever.

It's becoming apparent that you want to be able to buy sex, your position has little respect for the women you want to buy sex from.

I don't want to buy sex from women. Never have, don't think I ever will. But I regard your willingness to deny me the ability to perform that simple exchange between consenting adults (if I wished it) to be appalling. I don't need you to live my life for me thankyouverymuch. I'm a big boy, I know what's best for me. And since you know nothing of me outside this forum, your (implied) comment about me having no respect for women is telling of your character.

As far as the comment about it leading to more slavery, the article(s) also cite that policing the sex trade is lax. Prohibition doesn't work. Read up on its history sometime.

And I note you still have yet to offer a single solution to what you obviously consider a problem. All you have is negativity for what solutions others have presented.

You also have yet to answer my question posted above. This is the thrid time I'll ask it: why does the simple exchange of money make an otherwise socially accepted act immoral?

Coppertop · 11-16-2004, 02:14 PM

One more thought: as I know nothing of the exact laws in Holland and Australia, could you educate us? How regulated is it (if at all)?

DelayedReaction · 11-16-2004, 02:45 PM

What is the situation in Nevada, where prostitution is legal? Is trafficking a major problem there?

I think prostitution should be legal. There could be a voluntary cerfication program where a women shows she is clean of STDs and a legal adult, and in response she gets a little card that says so. Coupled with modifying the focus of vice squads to illegal activities such as child prostitution and trafficking, and things work out. At least in my eyes.

Coppertop · 11-16-2004, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelayedReaction

What is the situation in Nevada, where prostitution is legal? Is trafficking a major problem there?

Never heard about trafficking in Nevada but here's some info.

joeshoe · 11-19-2004, 06:22 PM

A: No, because it harms society as a whole, especially women.
B: Prostitution is pretty clearly immoral, but it depends on the moral standard being used.

The perception of prostitutes as resourceful entrepreneurs is horribly false. Most prostitutes are controlled and sold by pimps. In prostitution, women are exploited and taken advantage of. It amounts to a slave trade, and legalizing it would worsen the situation of impoverished women, rather than provide an economic opportunity.

11-15-2004, 05:32 PM	#1 (permalink)
Fate Crazy Location: Montreal	Legalizing Prostitution First off, I've already looked up the older threads in accordance to the word "prostitution" and havn't found a topic directly related to my question that's coming up. I have to write a 5 to 15 page essay on a Sex-Related topic/issue, I chose Prostitution (if you havn't guessed by the title), it's about legalizing it. What I seek in relevance to this thread is ideals from different individuals, and numbers (for minute unpolished statistics). Also, if you could help me clean up my Thesis that would be great. Thesis: Legalizing and promoting regulated Prostitution is beneficial to the person(s) involved, the Province/State and over all societal structures in the bend. (keep in mind the teacher for this subject isn't "anal" and hasn't set a standard for keeping it grammatically correct, structured appropriately, and so on. He's open minded to thoughts that progress beyond what's infront of everyday life. I'm pretty much saying, my essay doesn't have to sparkle, it just needs to look nice, and be qualified as 'actual research'. I doubt he's even going to read it word for word. Still, I like these things done well.) so A: In your opinion should prostitution be legalized (regulated)? - A simple yes or no, and a one to two sentence answer would be perfect. B: Morally, would legalized prostitution be acceptable? (on the basis, the women/men involved are physically safe, protected from exploitation, and so on) - A simple yes or no, and a one to two sentence answer would be perfect. C: What are the pro/cons to legalizing regulated prostitution? I hope I didn't make any of the 3 questions biased. Also if you want to discuss the questions and thread further, please do so in a paragraph after the questions, that way it keeps it easy for me to assess, and you can discuss to your hearts content. __________________ vB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is Off HTML code is Off

11-15-2004, 06:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	so A: In your opinion should prostitution be legalized (regulated)? Yes. It's legal for someone to buy a woman a drink in a bar, then take her home (assuming she agrees) for a fantastic one night stand. How's that any different? B: Morally, would legalized prostitution be acceptable? (on the basis, the women/men involved are physically safe, protected from exploitation, and so on) It's never really been acceptable for a person to be very sexually active, so I don't think it'd ever be something you could just bring up with at the family table or anything. C: What are the pro/cons to legalizing regulated prostitution? I'd have to say health related issues. STDs, especially. Sterilization of people, devices, whatever.. There would have to be some kind of system to make sure people are checked fairly often for diseases, and... that would be very complicated. Now, if they could come up with something that detects immediately.. prick your finger, get some blood, list off any diseases you may have, then it probably won't be a problem. __________________ I love lamp.

11-15-2004, 07:11 PM	#6 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	I don't support legalization of prostitution because of its link to the human slave trade. If someone could address that aspect for me, I would change my mind. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

11-15-2004, 07:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I will address this for you. Prostitution is not a forced profession. It has been with us for an extremely long time, and is respected as a form of employment in many cultures, or so is my understanding. The primary dissent in our culture is derived from Christian Values, and has little bearing on the base morality of the profession as a whole. Should one decide to undertake this form of employment, it is of ones own volition, and is generally not due to having no choice in the matter. Slavery, was and is a forceful removal of the rights of an individual, rather than an exercise of these rights. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

11-15-2004, 08:17 PM	#13 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	I oppose legalizing prostitution simply because I prefer not adding more energy to the continuing trends toward the commodification of the human being, human sexuality, and the politicalization of the personal. I don't make social policy. I express an individual opinion. __________________ create evolution

11-15-2004, 06:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
Gopher Upright	A: Yes. Same answer as Coppertop.. if they want to do it, who are we to say they can't? B: Yes, but I'm not religious, so it depends if you connect morals to religion. Pro: It happens anyway, so if you legalise it safety standards will hopefully increase - people won't have to hide it as much (no fear of being arrested)

11-15-2004, 06:41 PM	#4 (permalink)
wnker85 Registered User	A) sure why not B) The catholic church used to allow it as an acceptical sin C) Pros people can buy sex if they want Cons still risky IMO But, this isn't my cup of tea, so to say. I won't be doing it anytime soon. But I do not think that it happens so lets make it legal is a real argument.

11-15-2004, 08:22 PM	#15 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	A: Prostitution would be safer, more sanitary, and economically more beneficial to the business, clients, and society as a whole due to regulations and tax revenue. B: Morality is not an issue for me. Ethically, I see no reason to prohibit any person from doing something that he or she wants to do so long as it does not harm others in the process. A woman's vagina is her property, and if she wants to charge admission it's none of my business to tell her that she can't do that. C: Pros: -Reduction in sexual assaults thanks to legal outlets for pent up sexual energy -Reduction in stress when people have a legal way to relax (like a strip club, but better) -(Hopefully) the decline of our society's unhealthy taboos regarding sex -Decline in the human trafficking industry as an outlawed activity becomes a legal profession -Decline in organized crime as one of their large sources of income suddenly becomes mainstream and open to competition from all sides Cons: -Conflicts between those who still believe that sex is sacred and those who have no problem with indulging -Exploitation of low-income women who will be much more likely to turn to the sex industry as a way to make a quick buck Just like drugs, I'm pro-legalization, but realize that there is no perfect solution.

11-16-2004, 01:14 AM	#21 (permalink)
Kalibah Insane Location: Padded Playhouse	Sure why not. I view it like drugs, those that would do it, or a large majority of them, are already doing. I think very few people would like to try it, but arent because its illegal... So people that WILL do it ARE doing it. IMHO.

11-16-2004, 11:01 AM	#23 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	Ok, I read the two articles provided. I don't see the direct correlation between legalized prostitution and slavery. Look at it this way: prostitution happens now, already. It is here, it ain't going away. We need to think about what we can do to help the women who are in the industry to regain control of their lives. All I've heard form you is to leave them where they're at. Which means with the pimps. What's your solution if not legalization?

11-16-2004, 11:31 AM	#24 (permalink)
happyman Upright	In your opinion should prostitution be legalized (regulated)? - A simple yes or no, and a one to two sentence answer would be perfect. Yes, it should be legalized, regulated and taxed. B: Morally, would legalized prostitution be acceptable? (on the basis, the women/men involved are physically safe, protected from exploitation, and so on) - A simple yes or no, and a one to two sentence answer would be perfect. Prostitution is going to happen, in some form or another, no matter what. If it's legal it's easier to keep people safe. C: What are the pro/cons to legalizing regulated prostitution? You can tax it, you can keep people safe, you can hopefully limit the spreading of disease.

11-16-2004, 02:14 PM	#27 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	One more thought: as I know nothing of the exact laws in Holland and Australia, could you educate us? How regulated is it (if at all)?

11-16-2004, 02:45 PM	#28 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	What is the situation in Nevada, where prostitution is legal? Is trafficking a major problem there? I think prostitution should be legal. There could be a voluntary cerfication program where a women shows she is clean of STDs and a legal adult, and in response she gets a little card that says so. Coupled with modifying the focus of vice squads to illegal activities such as child prostitution and trafficking, and things work out. At least in my eyes. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

11-19-2004, 06:22 PM	#30 (permalink)
joeshoe Crazy Location: California	A: No, because it harms society as a whole, especially women. B: Prostitution is pretty clearly immoral, but it depends on the moral standard being used. The perception of prostitutes as resourceful entrepreneurs is horribly false. Most prostitutes are controlled and sold by pimps. In prostitution, women are exploited and taken advantage of. It amounts to a slave trade, and legalizing it would worsen the situation of impoverished women, rather than provide an economic opportunity.