Mistranslation in Bin Laden Tape

[zenmaster10665]

This is an interesting development. Many arab translators are stating that the word "State" in Bin Laden's tape was mistranslated or misinterpreted to "Country" in the US media.

Could it be that Osama was directly threatening states that vote for Bush?

MONSTER'S DEADLY WARNING TO 'RED' STATES

By NILES LATHEM


November 1, 2004 -- WASHINGTON - Osama bin Laden warned in his October Surprise video that he will be closely monitoring the state-by-state election returns in tomorrow's presidential race — and will spare any state that votes against President Bush from being attacked, according to a new analysis of his statement.

The respected Middle East Media Research Institute, which monitors and translates Arabic media and Internet sites, said initial translations of a key portion of bin Laden's video rant to the American people Friday night missed an ostentatious bid by the Saudi-born terror master to divide American voters and tilt the election towards Democratic challenger John Kerry.

MEMRI said radical Islamist commentators monitored over the Internet this past weekend also interpreted the key passage of bin Laden's diatribe to mean that any U.S. state that votes to elect Bush on Tuesday will be considered an "enemy" and any state that votes for Kerry has "chosen to make peace with us."

The statement in question is when bin Laden said on the tape: "Your security is up to you, and any state that does not toy with our security automatically guarantees its own security."

That sentence followed a lengthy passage in the video in which bin Laden launches personal attacks on the president.

Yigal Carmon, president of MEMRI, said bin Laden used the Arabic term "ay-wilaya" to refer to a "state" in that sentence.

That term "specifically refers to an American state, like Tennessee," Carmon said, adding that if bin Laden were referring to a "country" he would have used the Arabic word "dawla."

MEMRI also translated an analysis of bin Laden's statement from the Islamist Web site al-Qal'a, well known for posting al-Qaeda messages, which agreed that bin Laden's use of the word "ay-wilaya" was meant as a "warning to every U.S state separately."

"It means that any U.S. state that will choose to vote for the white thug Bush as president, it means that it chose to fight us and we will consider it an enemy to us, and any state that will vote against Bush, it means that it chose to make peace with us and we will not characterize it as an enemy," the Web site said, according to MEMRI's translation.

Here are the links to the coverage:
NY Post

And the Middle East Media link:
MEMRI

[amergin]

Scary. I know that Bin Laden is attempting to influence and intimidate, but it's interesting that the translation softens the intent considerably. I doubt many of the major news sources will pick this up. They may after the election. I won't hold my breath.

[seretogis]

I'm not surprised -- "terror" is the primary weapon of the "terrorist," not bombs and guns.

[SecretMethod70]

What's interesting about this is that it would eliminate the places where terrorism would be most effective. Sure, I guess Houston or Oklahoma City could be targeted, but it eliminates the possibility of targeting New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago - the three most populous cities. Not to mention most other major cities out there. Fo this reason I find it hard to believe, because I think Bin Laden would be aware of what he is saying in that regard. If he really said that, or was being honest in saying that, he would be ruling out pretty much every single effective target available.

[archer2371]

Doesn't matter whether or not you vote Kerry or Bush in bin Laden's eyes, you're still an infidel.

[aliali]

Makes it easy for those who claim they are going to leave the country if Bush gets in again. They can just stay in or move to a blue state.

Oh, by the way, you can't trust mass murders. They are going to hit where the people are in concentration. Those are the blue states.

Also, why are the blue states, by water? Is that just where the cities are?

[irateplatypus]

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Sure, I guess Houston or Oklahoma City could be targeted...

you're crazy secretmethod... no one would EVER think of attacking my cozy home of OKC. wait...

my favorite terrorism analyst Mansoor Ijaz (the man has connections and insight in spades) spoke about something i thought had a lot of merit...

perhaps the reason bin laden released this tape so close to the election was because he was powerless to do anything else. maybe his infrastructure has been hurt so badly that he couldn't engineer another attack in time for the election making a video appearance the most influence he could muster at this particular time. now, hopefully this is on the right track and we won't have an attack in the near future... but if we don't i think such an explanation would be plausible.

[Lebell]

Serious miscalculation.

We are not Spaniards.

[zenmaster10665]

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

you're crazy secretmethod... no one would EVER think of attacking my cozy home of OKC. wait...

my favorite terrorism analyst Mansoor Ijaz (the man has connections and insight in spades) spoke about something i thought had a lot of merit...

perhaps the reason bin laden released this tape so close to the election was because he was powerless to do anything else. maybe his infrastructure has been hurt so badly that he couldn't engineer another attack in time for the election making a video appearance the most influence he could muster at this particular time. now, hopefully this is on the right track and we won't have an attack in the near future... but if we don't i think such an explanation would be plausible.

There was some other speculation about this in a couple of other stories I read....basically saying that offering "truces" and "guarantees of safety" were signs of someone who was nearly beaten.

I am not sure what to believe...I just wish they would catch the bastard.

[Seaver]

Serious miscalculation.

We are not Spaniards.

Took the words out of my mouth.

[Strange Famous]

Originally Posted by Lebell

Serious miscalculation.

We are not Spaniards.

That is a great over-simplification of the issue. Maybe the Spanish election also had something to do with 90% of the Spanish population being against the attack on Iraq from the start?

Anyway, I agree this is very unlikely to have any favoruable impact for the Democrat Party, in as far as anyone paid attention, it would probably benefit Bush.

[seep]

Originally Posted by archer2371

Doesn't matter whether or not you vote Kerry or Bush in bin Laden's eyes, you're still an infidel.

If he doesn't care one way or the other, why would he say that? What would he have to gain?

Of course I agree that this will have no real impact. It certainly doesn't affect my opinion.

[archer2371]

Originally Posted by seep

If he doesn't care one way or the other, why would he say that? What would he have to gain?

Of course I agree that this will have no real impact. It certainly doesn't affect my opinion.

I was responding to the comment that bin Laden would have al-Qaeda attack states that voted for Bush, only. That very sentiment is absolutely insane, as SecretMethod pointed out, that takes away some of the greatest targets of opportunity for al-Qaeda. al-Qaeda and its ilk do not care about your point of view, they barely care about their own people's point of views, their only aim is to be the instrument of your destruction or conversion, nothing else.

[maximusveritas]

Give me a break.
Only a far right tabloid like the NY Post could call MEMRI "respected"
For more info on this organization, look at this article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/...773258,00.html

I don't buy this "mistranslation" bit at all.
Even if you do, you would be hardpressed to make the case that Bin Laden truly wants Bush to lose. As Larry Sabato pointed out on the O'Reilly Factor, Bin Laden may be evil, but he's certainly not stupid. Bin Laden knows that if he tells us not to vote for Bush, that's exactly what we'll do. Sabato point blank said that he thinks Bin Laden wants Bush to be re-elected and I tend to agree.

In the end, though, I'm not going to try to read Bin Laden's mind and frankly I don't care. He doesn't even deserve to still be alive, much less listened to. If you let Bin Laden influence your vote either way, you're just giving in to him.

[Ustwo]

Osama for Kerry. Not a surprise

[bling]

I don't believe this claim of mistranslation.

Suddenly we're supposed to believe Bin Laden has respect for the principles and mechanisms of Democracy?

Yeah right!

The term "state" is often used to describe the entire governmental body of a country.

[xepherys]

**TO ALL TERRORISTS, AL-QUEDA ASSOCIATES and OTHER MISFITS**

I will not be voting for George W. Bush this year. However, I am still your enemy. My vote does not condone your actions or your views. I am your enemy, and if my Commander-in-Chief (whoever that may be) or the officers appointed beneath him see fit to send me to your country and shoot you, I will do so gladly, with honor and pride. I am your enemy.

[hammer4all]

Robert Fisk, a British journalist who has interviewed Bin Laden 3 times in the past says this tape represented his vote for Bush.

I'm sure he realizes that further threats are more likely to help Bush than Kerry and what Osama Bin Laden wants now, of course, is a president to be elected who will further mire the country into the Middle East swamp, and cause, of course more American casualties, which Bush will surely do. So, I think that this is probably Osama Bin Laden's vote for George W. Bush.

Robert Fisk: "Bin Laden's Vote is For George Bush"

[Seaver]

Right... siting DemocracyNow.org as a source... problem number 1.

[hannukah harry]

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

What's interesting about this is that it would eliminate the places where terrorism would be most effective. Sure, I guess Houston or Oklahoma City could be targeted, but it eliminates the possibility of targeting New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago - the three most populous cities. Not to mention most other major cities out there. Fo this reason I find it hard to believe, because I think Bin Laden would be aware of what he is saying in that regard. If he really said that, or was being honest in saying that, he would be ruling out pretty much every single effective target available.

going along with what irate mentioned with the OK bombing... hitting anywhere in the heartland would be much more terrifying than new york. now that 9/11's happened, people who live in cities like that know it's a risk, but what was so scary about the OK bombing was that it CAN happen anywhere, even where you least expect. doesn't matter if it's a big city or small town... the idea that it's not safe anywhere is scarier than thinking it's only not safe in NY or LA.

[hammer4all]

Originally Posted by Seaver

Right... siting DemocracyNow.org as a source... problem number 1.

No, citing Robert Fisk. You can listen to the interview yourself.

[smooth]

Originally Posted by hannukah harry

going along with what irate mentioned with the OK bombing... hitting anywhere in the heartland would be much more terrifying than new york. now that 9/11's happened, people who live in cities like that know it's a risk, but what was so scary about the OK bombing was that it CAN happen anywhere, even where you least expect. doesn't matter if it's a big city or small town... the idea that it's not safe anywhere is scarier than thinking it's only not safe in NY or LA.

I suppose that your attitude would very largely depend on where you live. It doesn't scare me very much that a small town can be targeted. When I was living in Southern Oregon, in a town pop. of 26K, I felt very safe.

Now I live back in So. California. I live in between some of the largest concentrations of military establishements and shipping ports. A nuke (from N. Korea, no less) anywhere within 60 miles of me would pretty much wipe the US off the world's economic, cultural, and political map for a good while.

No offense to NY'ers or any heartland residents, but when your region produces the bulk of the world's cultural capital, sits within the top 5 of the world's economic capital by itself, and sways its nations political poles when it heaves a progressive idea into the public discourse, tangible threat speaks to me more loudly than abstract fear.


EDIT: if it's any consolation, the smog cover should deflect some of the fallout before it blows my way

[seep]

Originally Posted by archer2371

I was responding to the comment that bin Laden would have al-Qaeda attack states that voted for Bush, only. That very sentiment is absolutely insane, as SecretMethod pointed out, that takes away some of the greatest targets of opportunity for al-Qaeda. al-Qaeda and its ilk do not care about your point of view, they barely care about their own people's point of views, their only aim is to be the instrument of your destruction or conversion, nothing else.

I understand what you're saying but nevertheless: if Osama were nearly that simple-minded he wouldn't bother saying anything at all.

[martinguerre]

Originally Posted by Lebell

Serious miscalculation.

We are not Spaniards.

Dammit man, this is England, not Spain!

-Oliver Cromwell in "A Man for all Seasons"

My fondness for humor relating to Thomas Moore aside...it's a cheap shot, lebell. The Government chose to intervene in an war unpopular with the people BEFORE 3/11, and attracted the attention of militants who otherwise would have chosen other targets. The public rewarded that breach of their will, and utter incompetence, by choosing new leaders who would obey the public mandate.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by martinguerre

My fondness for humor relating to Thomas Moore aside...it's a cheap shot, lebell. The Government chose to intervene in an war unpopular with the people BEFORE 3/11, and attracted the attention of militants who otherwise would have chosen other targets. The public rewarded that breach of their will, and utter incompetence, by choosing new leaders who would obey the public mandate.

What a pretty way of saying they caved in to terrorists.

[DJ Happy]

I presume you're talking about the Spanish government caving in to Bush's fantastical misgivings.

[zenmaster10665]

Originally Posted by bling

I don't believe this claim of mistranslation.

Suddenly we're supposed to believe Bin Laden has respect for the principles and mechanisms of Democracy?

Yeah right!

The term "state" is often used to describe the entire governmental body of a country.

Read the column.

I personally do not speak arabic, but I would think that it would be pretty obvious to all who did in which sense Bin Laden was referring to a "State."

Does anyone here have any knowledge of arabic?

Also, on a side-note...Bin Laden is now planning on "Bankrupting" the biggest economy in the world.

I had to chuckle when I read this.

Somebody kill this guy, please!!!

Linky

Bin Laden: Goal is to bankrupt U.S.
Al-Jazeera releases full transcript of al Qaeda leader's tape
Tuesday, November 2, 2004 Posted: 0107 GMT (0907 HKT)


(CNN) -- The Arabic-language network Al-Jazeera released a full transcript Monday of the most recent videotape from Osama bin Laden in which the head of al Qaeda said his group's goal is to force America into bankruptcy.

Al-Jazeera aired portions of the videotape Friday but released the full transcript of the entire tape on its Web site Monday.

"We are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah," bin Laden said in the transcript.

He said the mujahedeen fighters did the same thing to the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in the 1980s, "using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers."

"We, alongside the mujahedeen, bled Russia for 10 years until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat," bin Laden said.

He also said al Qaeda has found it "easy for us to provoke and bait this administration."

"All that we have to do is to send two mujahedeen to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al Qaeda, in order to make generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic and political losses without their achieving anything of note other than some benefits for their private corporations," bin Laden said.

Al-Jazeera executives said they decided to post the entire speech because rumors were circulating that the network omitted parts that "had direct threats toward specific states, which was totally untrue."

"We chose the most newsworthy parts of the address and aired them. The rest was used in lower thirds in graphics format," said one official.

U.S. intelligence officials Monday confirmed that the transcript made public Monday by Al-Jazeera was a complete one.

As part of the "bleed-until-bankruptcy plan," bin Laden cited a British estimate that it cost al Qaeda about $500,000 to carry out the attacks of September 11, 2001, an amount that he said paled in comparison with the costs incurred by the United States.

"Every dollar of al Qaeda defeated a million dollars, by the permission of Allah, besides the loss of a huge number of jobs," he said. "As for the economic deficit, it has reached record astronomical numbers estimated to total more than a trillion dollars.

The total U.S. national debt is more than $7 trillion. The U.S. federal deficit was $413 billion in 2004, according to the Treasury Department.

"It is true that this shows that al Qaeda has gained, but on the other hand it shows that the Bush administration has also gained, something that anyone who looks at the size of the contracts acquired by the shady Bush administration-linked mega-corporations, like Halliburton and its kind, will be convinced.

"And it all shows that the real loser is you," he said. "It is the American people and their economy."

As for President Bush's Iraq policy, Bin Laden said, "the darkness of black gold blurred his vision and insight, and he gave priority to private interests over the public interests of America.

"So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy bled, and Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his future," bin Laden said.

U.S. government officials said Friday that the tape appeared to be authentic and recently made. It was the first videotaped message from the al Qaeda leader in nearly three years.

[bling]

Originally Posted by zenmaster10665

Read the column.

I personally do not speak arabic, but I would think that it would be pretty obvious to all who did in which sense Bin Laden was referring to a "State."

I did read the column. The only portion which is not entirely conjecture is this:

The statement in question is when bin Laden said on the tape: "Your security is up to you, and any state that does not toy with our security automatically guarantees its own security."

So I have to completely disagree that it would be "pretty obvious" that Bin Laden was referring to our Electoral College, which is what he would have to be doing if the term he used truly translates into a state inside the Union as opposed to a country or nation state.

So no, I simply do not believe that Bin Laden is suddenly going to officially recognize and base his future actions upon the methodology of democracy. In fact, I think it is laughable to suggest he would.

[ShaniFaye]

The sad fact is there ARE Americans that will beleive this....they will NOT stop to think that right now Osama can't do anything...he's stuck hiding in his cave....He's COUNTING on the fact that if Kerry gets in some of the "pressure" so to speak will be off and he can resume his acts of terror. He KNOWS if Bush is re elected he's still fucked and will have to stay in his cave for another 4 years

[Booboo]

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

The sad fact is there ARE Americans that will beleive this....they will NOT stop to think that right now Osama can't do anything...he's stuck hiding in his cave....He's COUNTING on the fact that if Kerry gets in some of the "pressure" so to speak will be off and he can resume his acts of terror. He KNOWS if Bush is re elected he's still fucked and will have to stay in his cave for another 4 years

Actually I think most people seem to agree that he wants Bush to be re-elected. Whatever he may be, BL is not stupid. By condemning Bush he knows that the likely reaction would be to vote for Bush and support this person that has made him afraid and forced him to hide in a cave somewhere. (which at this point i'm not so sure thats what hes doing... its all speculation)

[bodymassage3]

Did he mention what would happen to those states whose electoral votes are divided? He needs to be more specific.

[hannukah harry]

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

The sad fact is there ARE Americans that will beleive this....they will NOT stop to think that right now Osama can't do anything...he's stuck hiding in his cave....He's COUNTING on the fact that if Kerry gets in some of the "pressure" so to speak will be off and he can resume his acts of terror. He KNOWS if Bush is re elected he's still fucked and will have to stay in his cave for another 4 years

considering the pressure has pretty much been off since the build up to iraq, short of kerry deciding to get troops out of afghanistan looking for him, i personally can't imagine any way for the pressure to be lower than it is. do you really think kerry would do that? i hope not... it would be political suicide for him to do, and he's not that stupid. (and i dont' see him starting another war to take our attention away.)

[ShaniFaye]

yes, I believe he would
http://www.11alive.com/specials/loca...?storyid=53198

Iraq War

Bush: Swift military victory followed by violent aftermath and halting efforts at stabilizing new government, with more than 1,000 U.S. military deaths. Won congressional approval of $87 billion for continued military operations and aid in Iraq and Afghanistan. Defends decision to go to war despite later findings that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, the central rationale at the time, and that Saddam Hussein's ties to al-Qaida were tenuous at most. Says Saddam had the will to foment unrest, cooperate with terrorists and develop such weapons over time.

Kerry: Supported congressional resolution letting Bush go to war but says he did so based on faulty U.S. intelligence and with the belief the president would build a true coalition and exhaust options short of war. Opposed $87 billion package for Iraq and Afghanistan. Says he would try to begin U.S. troop withdrawal in six months and complete it in four years, by encouraging allies to commit more forces.

[smooth]

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

yes, I believe he would
http://www.11alive.com/specials/loca...?storyid=53198

What does your quote regarding withdrawal of troops from Iraq have to do with Afghanistan or bin Laden for that matter?

[ShaniFaye]

um if you read the what was quoted it was about both troops in iraq AND afghanistan

Opposed $87 billion package for Iraq and Afghanistan. Says he would try to begin U.S. troop withdrawal in six months and complete it in four years, by encouraging allies to commit more forces.

[smooth]

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

um if you read the what was quoted it was about both troops in iraq AND afghanistan

Not only did I read the quote, I saw the speeches where the quote comes from.

You're misunderstanding what he intends to do. Kerry claims he will eventually draw down troops in Iraq and beef them up in Afghanistan where they belong.


EDIT: this debate has been going on for almost a year. Kerry supported the action in Afghanistan. The only war these two disagree on is Iraq.

[ShaniFaye]

obiviously since I havent seen anything saying he wants to increase troops in afghanistan Im misinformed. I am not the type of person to "intentionally" misuse anything.

I will do research and see if I find anything that says what you are saying

[smooth]

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

obiviously since I havent seen anything saying he wants to increase troops in afghanistan Im misinformed. I am not the type of person to "intentionally" misuse anything.

I will do research and see if I find anything that says what you are saying

my bad, I didn't mean to post such an abrasive post. I edited out the barbs in my post.

[ShaniFaye]

Thanks hon....I'm still looking and so far cant find anything other that what is on his own site about working with NATO but Im still looking

[inkriminator]

The full text of bin Laden's speech can be found on this thread:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=74642

If you read the sentence right before the one in question you find:

In conclusion, I tell you in truth, that your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaida. No. Your security is in your own hands. And every state that doesn't play with our security has automatically guaranteed its own security.

In light of this, I think he was using State to mean country.