powerclown

Doctors in Ramallah fighting to save Arafat's life

Looks like the end of the line for Arafat.

There are going to be * H U G E * demonstrations in Gaza & the West Bank, and most likely many other Arab countries in the region if he dies. Nearly 40 years as undisputed leader of the Palestinian people. In saying this, the death of Arafat could clear the way for the rise of a moderate Palestinian leadership willing to deal honestly with Israel. This could go a long, long way towards stopping the suicide bombings, to Israel tearing down its protective wall, to a true and lasting Peace. Further, it could de-fuse much of the animosity the Middle East holds against Israel and America in regards to the formers dealings with the Palestinians. Quite a development.

daswig

Everybody dies. If he dies in his sleep, he's far luckier than he deserves.

Mephisto2

Just an honest question here.

Do you feel the same about Menachmm Begin?
Do you feel the same about Nelson Mandella?

They too are both ex-terrorists who were awarded the Nobel Peace prize.

Mr Mephisto

JaySpencer

So were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Adams, and all the founding fathers, terrorists one and all. Perhaps in 50 years, if I am alive I will look on Arafat as not having been a wanton instigator of death and mayhem, and an overall obstructionist force to the peace process. At this point in time I find no great care that he is dying, as terrible as that is to say because he is a human being, because I have the hope that the peace process may actually be facilitated by his dying.

ObieX

Should be interesting to see how it all plays out atleast. This could ether go really good, or really.. really bad.

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daswig

To tell you the truth, I'm hard-pressed to remember a single incident in which either Begin or Mandela took part in or supported a terrorist operation that resulted in the death of one of my countrymen. Not so with Arafat.

Tophat665

Mr. Mephisto,
Not that your question was directed at me....
Although consideration of Begin would have prevented me from bringing it up (He was a member of the Stern gang, no?) now that you mention it, former terrorists who die in there sleep, be they former terrorists who went on to lead obscure, exceptionally wealthy lives in Saudi, like Idi Amin, who went on to lead their countries and win Nobel Peace Prizes, like Begin and Mandella, or who have lingered on as persistent political chancres, like Castro and Arafat, should realize that they have most definitely gotten out easy if they die in their sleep.

That's just my sense of "what goes around comes around", and nothing particularly personal about it.

On the other hand, I do feel a bit of hesitant hope that Arafat may soon kick that storied bucket, particularly if the Gaza pullout also brings down Sharon. There will never have been a time with more potential to get somewhere in this idiot conflict. Of course, if there isn't a president in the United States who people are willing to give a shred of credibility, then all bets are off. Bull in the China Shop diplomacy won't work on this, and ideaology is the problem, not part of the solution. Still Arafat is not less that 20% of the problem, and if he checks out, that's an opportunity for progress anyway.

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Mephisto2

I'm not passing judgement on him.

He was a terrorist. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. It's a funny old world in some ways.

We'll never know if he has done more harm than good, but he has undoubtedly done both.


Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2

For the record, Begin was a member of Irgun (or Etzel in Hebrew). Responsible for several bombings and massacres. But that's not the point.

With regards to his death bringing a resolution to the Palestinian Crisis any closer, I'm not so sure.

He is certainly an autocratic leader. It's just that when a power vacuum is created, there is also a chance that something worse rather than better will fill it.

As I said, I make no judgement on him. Let history be his judge. It's easy for us to sit in our comfy arm-chairs, far away from the bullets and bombs in Palestine and make smarmy comments on how he deserves to die.

I mourn the loss of any human life. From that of my own family to the likes of Idi Amin. The one leveling feature we all have is our inalienable humanity.


Mr Mephisto

powerclown

I agree. The war between these 2 has been going on for sooo long, (UN Partition of Palestine, 1947), almost 60 years, that it's hard to even fathom any transition to peace, nevermind a smooth one. The fact of the matter is that the Arabs see the creation of Israel as a catastrophe. Arafat exiting stage left isn't going to change this mindset overnight, if ever. Everything depends on the type of Palestinian leadership that comes into power after Arafat.

Sun Tzu

If he stays where he's at and dies; I think the demonstrations will be in the form of mourning. If he leaves, survives, attempts to re-enter, and is killed along with any others willing to follow him in death---that's when trouble will begin. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

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daswig

There I guess we just have to agree with a parting of the ways. There are people who were human beings that I'm HAPPY died, and wish they had died much earlier. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, et cetera. While they may have technically been human, I'm glad they're dead. In a Ring of Gyges scenario, I'd have no hesitation whatsoever to drop a hammer on any of those listed herein.

tecoyah

perhaps his passing will open the way for a palestinian state, and eventual peace in the region.....yeah, right

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OFKU0

Arafats death won't change anything. One man's death will never overcome the hundreds of years of hatred between the Jews and the Arabs. Arafat is a pimple on the ass of that long standing conflict. Reciprocal hatred as such on this level cannot possibly disipate in decades let alone generations.

In all of Arafat's megalomania, I really hope some big Hollywood icon doesn't die when he does because that would not only overshadow his existence but would also show how little the rest of the world really care about how many Arabs kill Israeli's and vice versa. Hmmm,... Tom Hanks or Tom Cruise dies, the world mourns. Arafat dies at the same time? Arafat?,...wasn't that a movie?

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Mephisto2

I think you misunderstood me. Or perhaps I wasn't clear.

Whilst I'm never happy at anyone's death (per se), I believe that the world is a better place when some people die or are killed.

Hitler and Stalin are two clear examples.

Put another way, I can be happy some people are gone, but I'm not celebrating their death. Minor distinction maybe, but one I maintain in my own mind.

And, just to be clear, I don't put Arafat in the same league (or anywhere close) to the likes of Hitler and Stalin etc.

BTW, you didn't answer my question with regards to Begin or Mandella.

Mr Mephisto

daswig

I'm sorry, I thought I did. As soon as I hear of which of my countrymen Begin and Mandella had a hand in killing, I'll gladly toss them over into my mental column that contains Arafat.

Mephisto2

Well, sarcasm aside, the implication is that you don't tar Begin and Mandella with the same brush because they didn't have a hand in killing Americans. At least we know where we stand.

And for a minute it was because I thought you disliked him because he was an ex-terrorist.

Here's another question for you. What about terrorists who kill the citizens of your allies? That is, British citizens? Would they "count"?


Mr Mephisto

guthmund

No kidding. As it is his hold is tenuous at best. If he dies, imagine the power vacuum that splits wide open in the middle eastern politcal/power scene.

Now imagine who takes his place.

I'm never particularly fond of hearing about death. In this case even more so. I would imagine the last thing the middle east needs right now is a 87 way fight for superior positioning.

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roachboy

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...92185234F4.htm

it is really difficult to get any sense of what is going on in fact.

i find it interesting that, in the article linked above, the claim is that arafat feels as if he cannot seek adequate medical treatment because he does not think the israelis will let him back if he does--of course they will "permit" him to leave...

of course this article could be the smokescreen and the other, from haaretz, might not be.
i suppose it all depends upon which smokescreen you prefer.

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it make you sick.

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Mephisto2

My position exactly.


Mr Mephisto

D Rice

How do yall think this will affect the relations btwn Isr, Pals?

Sun Tzu

That breaks down into ones positioning. (No advocation of bombing innocent people) In other words where is the line drawn in reguards to standing beside an allie in times of trouble and watching with complacency when a percentage views that allie's actions as completely wrong--even in alignment with terrorism.

Does it follow the theme terrorist to some freedom fighter to others; maybe, but don't forget there are as many the view others on the opposite side terrorists just as much.


What if? What if statements generally investigate areas that can go anywhere, thats why I have a difficult time with them--but thats for me personally. Kind of like-- What if the IDF and the powers that be pulled all settlements out of the West Bank and Gaza entirely. Would that change a majority of the world's view on Israel?

What makes an allie? I dont mean that as a smart ass question; but a search for other input. Why are the allies we have (true allies) our allies?

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roachboy

one thing i have figured out in my real life role as a historian is that cause-effect relations are fictional at best in a complex social-historical situations.
there is no way to predict how events will play out.

there is not even at this point any way to know what is going on--even on the question of whether arafat is really ill or kind of ill, or whether he is getting adequate care either way---no way to know.
maybe the israeli press prefers to publish worst scenario stories for reasons of wish-fulfillment in the wake of sharon carrying the parliamentary vote to dismantle settlements in gaza.
maybe al-jazeera is carrying an equivalent set of wish-fulfillment stories because the plo leadership want to play for time.

if you cant even figure out at this point what is happening, what sense does it make to screw about with scenarios?

the israelis have been blaming arafat for violence while at the same time acting as though the settlements do not play a role and as if the brutality of the occupation is not an issue in itself for years--why should anyone believe them?

similarly, arafat has been using israeli disengenousness to prop himself up in power for years as well. why should you believe anyone around him?

the other thing i have learned in my real-life role as historian is that ex post facto, whatever happens will be understood as necessary. or as the opposite of that. what will be covered over--what is always covered over--is period of uncertainty. this is one.

a third thing i have learned is that reference to "centuries of conflict between arabs and jews" in this context is meaningless--this is a particular conflict underway in earnest since 1948, with a sequence of definable parameters and turning points, that has been undertaken and maintained by both sides in their own interests.
the grand historical pseudo-understanding operates to erase what is happening in real time.
with the result, here as always, that the people who are fucked over remain the same: the palestinan people.
you know, regular folk---not unlike you---jammed into situations of complete desperation.

these people matter even less if the body count is measured in terms of nationalism (daswig's fine posts).
they matter not at all if the conflict is understood as endless, as eternal, as insoluble.
because all that functions only--and i mean only--to let the parties off the hook that in fact, in real time, maintain this ridiculous and brutal conflict.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ustwo

Arafat has done his best to prevent a peace with Isreal. I shed no tears.

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Mephisto2

I don't know if it's strictly true to say that he has done his best to prevent peace with Israel.

Mr Mephisto

powerclown

Note the hands...





Why is everyone smiling?

roachboy

because they are having their picture taken?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

powerclown

Come on, RB...
Arafat's dying, and they're partying like its 1999.
Somewhat of an inappropriate time to be celebrating.

In that second pic, it looks to me as if they're literally propping up their dying leader before the camera, before the world. It's a surreal collection of smiles and grim faces. Is it because the Palestineans have no one to take his place, and are in denial over his dying?

Ustwo

Its the usual political 'Don't worry he will be fine!' type of picture.

If he dies you deal with it then, but for now lets have him look to be recovering.

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powerclown

And look who's coming to the rescue...

Aide: Arafat to enter Paris hospital

alto92

wtf powerclown..."look who comes to the rescue." since when, even in your little black and white world, is caring for a dying person a shitty thing to do? even israel is cooperating by letting him come back to his compound....says so right in your article. and don't back out of this...

powerclown

But its more complicated than that, isn't it?
This isn't just any dying old man...this is Yasser Arafat, whose political record stands public for all to see.

Mephisto2

powerclown, that stupid (and I don't often say that), comment about "look who comes to the rescue" comment is the silliest thing I've heard here.

Who would have thought that a sick or dying man going to the city where his daughter and wife live for treatment in his final days would be a basis for your childish anti-French racism.

Quite a bit of respect lost right there my friend (not that I think you care).


Mr Mephisto


[EDIT: Please note that this was posted before I noticed and responded to your troll on the Greatest American thread. Just shows you my opinion was right...]

irateplatypus

not that i agree with powerclown, but you can't really use the location of his wife and daughter as a counter-argument because the next question becomes: why are his wife and daughter there? you can't debunk something with what may lend creedence to the opposing argument.

my .02

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

powerclown

Quite the petty shot there mephisto; the motivation for such a response I think we both understand clearly.

It comes as no surprise to me that Arafat is on such good terms with France, and it strikes me as par for the course. Neither has contributed anything productive to the Israeli-Palestinean conflict for the duration of its existence; indeed, lets be frank here: one could make a very sound argument that Arafat is THE major impediment to peace, stability and progression in the region.

It is within France's power to offer real help and assistance to the conflict, but time and again they choose simply to counter Israel's self-defense measures with useless UN Resolutions designed to compromise these defenses in a political effort to garner favor (read: $$$Trade$$$) with the Arab world.

Mephisto2

I don't believe it was petty, but I accept the tone was inappropriate. Chalk it up to a fifth day in a row having to get up at 3am. I apologise for calling you childish and racist.

My underlying point remains the same. I think saying "Look who comes to the rescue" is just provocative. France has a long long history of being pro-Arab in the Middle East. Just as the US has a long long history of being pro-Israeli.

It would be just as inappropriate for me to say "Look who comes to the resuce" if Sharon were treated in an American hospital on his death bed.

Mr Mephisto

PS - And no, I don't understand what you mean about motivation.

PPS - I should like to debate some of your assertions (such that Arafat is THE major impediment to progress; certainly he is one of many), but I think that's better left to another thread, another time. I accept I stepped over the line with my post above and will leave it at that.

powerclown

No problem; not like the situation isn't compelling and anything to get worked up over.

Just for the record, I don't dislike French people; I dislike the behavior of the French people's Government. My intent was not to denigrate an entire nation of individual people.

daswig

Just for the record, I've yet to meet the first French national that I like. (there may be some that I would like, I've just not met any of them, despite having been in France repeatedly. I've met lots of people of french descent, and generally like them just fine, but as for the actual French? Ask me again after they've figured out deodorant/anti-perspirant.

BTW, are the french a "race"? I've met white french people, black french people, and even asian french people. What racial category does "the french" fall into? And if they're not a race, how can disliking them be racist?

Sun Tzu

Before the US was giving 13.7 million per day; 8 billion annually in tax deductable donations--who was arming Israel?

Not meaning to get way off course here, but when I see see the French mentioned in this tone, I have to comment--

We helped France in WWI and WWII, they helped with militias fight for America against our now close allie Britain. They disagreed with the war in Iraq; it doesnt mean they were cheering on 9/11.

When I hear Axis of Weasel I consider the source.

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Bustello

Didn't know that Mandela was a terrorist...