|
View Poll Results: What's your priority? | |||
Liberty | 24 | 70.59% | |
Order | 5 | 14.71% | |
Neither or No Preference | 5 | 14.71% | |
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools |
05-18-2003, 06:43 PM | #1 (permalink) |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
|
Liberty or order
We always need to find a good balance between liberty or order. It swings toward order during times or war and such, and toward liberty during other times.
So, what would you prefer? liberty or order? I kinda like the lockean theory and other theories such, and i lean heavily toward liberty, what's your swing on this?
__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
05-19-2003, 06:23 AM | #3 (permalink) |
Super Agitator
Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A
|
I don't think the two are separable - I do not believe you can have liberty without order. Liberty without order is chaos. Look at ever nation that has suddenly gained liberty without order.
__________________
Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!! |
05-19-2003, 03:15 PM | #5 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Switzerland
|
Freedom... Freedom... Freedom...
I don't think the poll so far (5 for liberty, 1 for order) represents the posts I've been reading. It is true, freedom can only be built upon a certain amount of order. But more importantly than that, freedom is a concept. A state of mind. An illusion. Many things. And: The way people chicken and run because of mass media manipulation these days is just ridiculous, in my opinion.
__________________
Didn't remember how intense love could be... Thank you B. |
05-19-2003, 05:21 PM | #6 (permalink) |
Super Agitator
Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A
|
Iraq is an example of liberty - with no order. Do you like what you are seeing?
__________________
Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!! |
05-19-2003, 11:11 PM | #7 (permalink) | |
Muffled
Location: Camazotz
|
There's a quote by Franklin. One of the members around here has it as a sig.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Quote:
__________________
it's quiet in here |
|
05-19-2003, 11:26 PM | #8 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
|
I don't believe that there is a reason to have to choose between the two. I think there can be a happy medium where the two are balanced.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
05-20-2003, 01:36 PM | #9 (permalink) |
The Cover Doesn't Match The Book
Location: in a van down by the river
|
Must we choose? Can’t we all just sit back and be told that everything is ok like we always have?
__________________
SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority. |
05-20-2003, 04:49 PM | #10 (permalink) |
The Northern Ward
Location: Columbus, Ohio
|
Gotta be alive first to have any sense of liberty, it'd be great if people would leave you alone, but alas, we live in reality. I think I'd prefer not to get blown up by a terrorist.
__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy |
05-21-2003, 09:57 PM | #14 (permalink) |
Conspiracy Realist
Location: The Event Horizon
|
What a question! It depends if were talking Road Warrior kind of liberty without order than no I would not prefer that. Actually I have nothing to base what a totally liberized society would be.
I f applied to my life I would rather have liberty. A heart surgeon would appear to lead a life of order. Possibly having a secretary do his planning, a steady apteient load, basically solid structure, total order. But if he is always on call, a large patient folow up based, the doctor cant go where they want when they want, They have no liberty in their life. Liberty on a singular scale to me means having the ability to do what you want when you want. ON a large scale within society, I would rather have order.
__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking |
05-22-2003, 08:25 AM | #16 (permalink) | |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
|
Quote:
The US typically favours more Liberty (or as Art puts it the illusion of Liberty) over order. At least they did before 9/11 the Patriot act, DMCA, etc all serve to limit many of freedoms Americans have come to take for granted...
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
|
05-22-2003, 06:02 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Addict
Location: Texas
|
This whole thread is almost painful to me... The question you pose initially is vague to say the least. Is this a choice between anarchy and a dictatorship? Hardly... Nevertheless, I'd like to address a couple of the other posts...
Quote:
exerpt from an August 5, 2002 article by Alex Epstien from the Ayn Rand Institute: (paraphrased) "the choice between a terrorized free country and a less-terrorized police state is a false alternative. There is at root no conflict between the values of liberty and security. Liberty and security are not opposing goals; to the contrary, the second is a means to the first. A proper government exists to protect the freedom of its citizens, by securing their individual rights. The security relevant in this context is the security from the only thing that can violate our rights: the threat of (initiated) force. A proper government uses its police powers?both domestic and military?to prosecute those who attack its citizens' liberty, whether the attackers are criminals at home or hostile states abroad. The end that security serves - liberty - delimits the type of action government may take. It cannot, for instance, throw everyone in prison, in the name of securing Americans against the possibility of robbery or murder. The individual's freedom cannot be safeguarded by being abrogated. A government that arbitrarily uses its police powers is destroying the very value it is supposed to be securing?as every police state in history has shown. (end exerpt) It's important to remember that man is a rational being. Reason, as man?s only means of knowledge, is his basic means of survival. But the exercise of reason depends on each individual?s choice. The proper standard of ethics is: that which is required by man?s nature for his survival as a rational being (not his momentary physical survival as a mindless brute). Rationality is man?s basic virtue, and his three fundamental values are: reason, purpose, self-esteem. That being said, then to survive as anything other than a mindless brute, requires cooperation. Advancement requires that we specialize in our areas of expertise and ability. Then we engage in capitalism. (this is NOT necessarily a GOVERNMENT at this point, but a method of RATIONALLY exchanging value for value) Man - every man - is an end in himself, not a means to the ends of others; he must live for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself; We must act socially in such a way that no man attempts to seek values from another by means of physical force. We must deal with each other as traders, giving value for value by free mutual concent for mutual benefit. This is liberty, and it is order. Liberty must be based on individual rights. and the government shoul exist only to protect those rights.. There is no "illusion" of liberty or freedom here, there is freedom. no-one has the "right" to take from another, that's simply not freedom, it's tyranny.. There is no "right" to be a dictator. Those who believe that those types of things are "rights" or "freedoms" must ask themselves if they are only wishing to enslave or use others, and call it a "right" to justify their actions.....
__________________
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. |
|
05-22-2003, 08:48 PM | #18 (permalink) |
Upright
|
It’s not possible for a society to exist without order. If chaos occurs in a society, some form of order almost immediately replaces it.
As toxic pointed out, it’s wrong to think of liberty and order as a trade off. Order and liberties are two very different things and cannot really be compared. Most societies have a number of distinct liberties and the apparent tradeoffs between liberty and order are usually trade offs between different liberties. |
05-23-2003, 06:32 PM | #19 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: right behind you...
|
I voted for liberty. and i also see it like Art. it's my illusion of the moment.
as far as order. from what i've learned by studying people is that most of the super threat people get put in place eventually. i know order must exist. however, i think people generally can do a lot more than they think if they were leaderless. they'd have no choice but to think for themselves. i could be wrong. |
05-24-2003, 03:26 PM | #21 (permalink) | |
Super Agitator
Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A
|
Quote:
__________________
Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!! |
|
05-24-2003, 06:11 PM | #22 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: Raleigh, NC / Atlanta, GA
|
Give me liberty or give me death.
I hate having personal freedoms reduced during a time of war/crisis but unfortunately it seems to be a necessary evil. This doesn't mean I won't protest it though.
__________________
"The South is gonna boogie again" - Disco Stu |
05-27-2003, 07:10 AM | #23 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: Somewhere... Across the sea...
|
With liberty, you must have responsibility. If our citezenry were capable of responsibly handling liberty, we wouldn't need our bloated civil and criminal codes, nor the need for such secrecy in the affairs of our government. The minute we decided that the worker bees were too dumb to trust was the minute we lost our liberty for order. If we raised everyone to the higher levels of integrity and responsibility, order would follow naturally, but it would be an order based on consesus rather than legislation.
Unfortunately, our legislators and elected officials have given us the line "Trust us, it's for your own good." so many times that people in America have become drones. The USA PATRIOT act is not about countering terrorism, but exerting more "order". Notice how we always hear of a New World "Order", and not a New World Republic, or even a New World Democracy. I VOTE for liberty. PS Good post, Toxic!
__________________
The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference. "God made man, but he used the monkey to do it." DEVO |
05-27-2003, 07:33 AM | #24 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: The True North Strong and Free!
|
Quote:
__________________
"It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don't believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it." Winston Churchill |
|
Tags |
liberty, order |
|
|