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Old 05-22-2003, 06:02 PM   #17 (permalink)
toxic515
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Location: Texas
This whole thread is almost painful to me... The question you pose initially is vague to say the least. Is this a choice between anarchy and a dictatorship? Hardly... Nevertheless, I'd like to address a couple of the other posts...
Quote:
Liquor Dealer
Iraq is an example of liberty - with no order. Do you like what you are seeing?
No, Iraq is NOT an example of liberty without order, it is an example of chaos created by an oppressed people, all continuing to ignore the rights of others.

exerpt from an August 5, 2002 article by Alex Epstien from the Ayn Rand Institute: (paraphrased)
"the choice between a terrorized free country and a less-terrorized police state is a false alternative. There is at root no conflict between the values of liberty and security.

Liberty and security are not opposing goals; to the contrary, the second is a means to the first. A proper government exists to protect the freedom of its citizens, by securing their individual rights. The security relevant in this context is the security from the only thing that can violate our rights: the threat of (initiated) force. A proper government uses its police powers?both domestic and military?to prosecute those who attack its citizens' liberty, whether the attackers are criminals at home or hostile states abroad.

The end that security serves - liberty - delimits the type of action government may take. It cannot, for instance, throw everyone in prison, in the name of securing Americans against the possibility of robbery or murder. The individual's freedom cannot be safeguarded by being abrogated. A government that arbitrarily uses its police powers is destroying the very value it is supposed to be securing?as every police state in history has shown.
(end exerpt)

It's important to remember that man is a rational being. Reason, as man?s only means of knowledge, is his basic means of survival. But the exercise of reason depends on each individual?s choice. The proper standard of ethics is: that which is required by man?s nature for his survival as a rational being (not his momentary physical survival as a mindless brute). Rationality is man?s basic virtue, and his three fundamental values are: reason, purpose, self-esteem.

That being said, then to survive as anything other than a mindless brute, requires cooperation. Advancement requires that we specialize in our areas of expertise and ability. Then we engage in capitalism. (this is NOT necessarily a GOVERNMENT at this point, but a method of RATIONALLY exchanging value for value) Man - every man - is an end in himself, not a means to the ends of others; he must live for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself; We must act socially in such a way that no man attempts to seek values from another by means of physical force. We must deal with each other as traders, giving value for value by free mutual concent for mutual benefit.

This is liberty, and it is order. Liberty must be based on individual rights. and the government shoul exist only to protect those rights..

There is no "illusion" of liberty or freedom here, there is freedom. no-one has the "right" to take from another, that's simply not freedom, it's tyranny.. There is no "right" to be a dictator. Those who believe that those types of things are "rights" or "freedoms" must ask themselves if they are only wishing to enslave or use others, and call it a "right" to justify their actions.....
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