Mephisto2

REF: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...667694439.html


Wow. I respect everyone's faith, but I think there should be a clear seperation of church and state. Isn't a Presidential candidate using his faith as an election gimmick a little too close to breaking that rule?

Mr Mephisto

cthulu23

I don't want to live in a universe where god plays favorites with politics or sporting events.

Super_Mole

I'm a Christian and I think his "I'm the Christian candidate, a vote for me is a vote for Jesus." crap is completely evil and decieving. One thing I don't agree with is the super devoutness of alot of Christians when it comes to "Bible morals". Sure the Bible says being gay is wrong, but it also says that men are far superior to women and they should be treated as such. As we all know this isn't true, but people still believe homosexuality is some terrible sin and God will rain acid and brimstone on you if you are. Well, I'll let you be the judge.

__________________
How many kids with ADD does it take to screw in a lightbulb... lets go ride bikes.

guy44

It isn't getting around the seperation of church and state at all. No candidate has ever been - nor should they be - forced to silence their views on religion. Is it annoying? Yes.

Take a cue from The Daily Show: after showing a clip where Alan Keyes (Republican candidate for Senate in Illinois) said Jesus would never vote for his opponent, Jon Stewart replied, "But who would Jesus vote for if the alternative is Alan Keyes?"

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

Mephisto2

I didn't say it was getting around the seperation of church and state, but simply asked a rhetorical question on whether it was getting "a little close".

I'd prefer if neither candidate played the bible card...

Mr Mephisto

jonjon42

I really do not wish to live in a goverment headed by a fanatical christian...

__________________
A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

Super_Mole

Me neither... and I'm a Christian!

__________________
How many kids with ADD does it take to screw in a lightbulb... lets go ride bikes.

Mephisto2

You're already living in one.


Mr Mephisto

Rdr4evr

"I feel that God wants me to be president" George Bush

Bwahahahaha, I think I have a new sig.

This freak is sick. Yeah, God wants you to be re-elected so you can start more wars killing more innocent people all while endangering your own country by making it more hated than it already is. Stupid jack ass is mistaking God for Lucifer. I wish his God would strike him dead with lightning.

SecretMethod70

No, I don't. I think that using one's religion for advantages in the election is a dirty trick, but I find it to be completely unrelated to the first amendment. A candidate being Christian, being STRONGLY Christian, or even believing that God wants him to be president has nothing to do with congress making laws establishing national religions or prohibiting its free exercise. A Christian president, elected by the people, acting like a Christian because he is one is 100% unrelated to government making laws favoring one religion over another.

At the same time, we get to say "This guy thinks God 'wants him' to be president? Good thing I know how delusional he is before Nov 2!"

Nonetheless, freedom OF religion != freedom FROM religion

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

nomorensx

So, Bush is still hearing voices in his head.

MSD

Sounds about right to me. I don't know how anyone can just brush this stuff aside.

I'd be happy with both.

pan6467

well we know what Pat Robertson thinks of him. And Bush can't be too christian calling Rev. Moon, "a vionary and great american".

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

neutone

Us non americans are wondering how to restore communism to it's former glory, yeah okay it didn't work but hell you got to love the idea when you hear the crap leaking from the base of Bush.

__________________
Protect the rights of tribes

Willravel

I think that "Beverly Ryan, a retired legal secretary and born-again Christian from West Palm Beach, Florida" has some thinking to do. She is not an acurate representation of Christians, as a lot of christians are not, in fact, morons.

superiorrain

We could all be in for some luck. Maybe God will be the only dude to vote for Bush and everyone else for Kerry.

Can God vote?? and if he could would he??

i'll stop there before i lose the point i was going to make...nope gone. Ohwell. Hope everyone who can vote does. Vote Kerry, Bush has already had his go, didn't go to well from where i'm sitting (here in lonely old England).

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"The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible." - Arthur C. Clarke

roachboy

fundamentalist christians...yikes....my teenage experience with one of these groups helped me realize how strange they are...they make no distinction between "spiritual" propositions and political ones---which means that, for them, their propositions on the latter are not falsifiable...and that is what makes them unnerving as a political force. you see the same kind of strategies in bush's discourse as well.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Coppertop

What are the odds that when he loses the election, Bush states that god's will wasn't done? Or say that god didn't want him in office. Bit a pickle, that is...

Bill O'Rights

Ok...that just sends cold shivers up and down my spine. That is some scary shit.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

flstf

I am convinced that if there is a benevolent god he/she will not be on the side of either of the Democrat/Republican professional polititians. Both candidates shamelessly distort the truth.

FngKestrel

Coppertop: Bush'll claim that God's will wasn't done, and that we'll be punished for it. And then he'll call up Osama and tell him to go ahead and strike.

For the record, I think the hurricanes were God's punishment for the 2000 election.

djtestudo

Wait...you mean that campaigning for the support of a group is bad?

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

mbaha

why is this a surprise?

roachboy

campaigning for their support and reproducing some of the most antidemocratic features of that particular way of thinking are not the same thing. bush could easily argue that he defends their interests, for example, without indulging in the same patterns to frame not just these positions, but the whole of his administration.

that god for example, so far as bush is concerned, thought that the war in iraq was justified played a role in the contempt the administration showed to international and national law in the run-up to and conduct of that war. because the pattern of thinking about politics leaked from the religious into the political domain. i do not know if this is true, but it makes enough sense intuitively that it make this administration pretty alarming.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Mephisto2

Well, I agree with you djtestudo. I don't think it is. It's perfectly acceptable.

But claiming you are God's chosen one is bad.


Mr Mephisto

KCMadcow

Wow...it just amazes me. I'm a conservative, but not very religious. It just amazes me however that when a republican expresses his faith, he's a zealot, but when a white democrat shows up with Jesse Jackson at an African American church and makes a stump speech from the pulpit (which could cause that church to lose it's tax exempt status, but since it's a democrat they get away with it) it's an opportunity to reach out "to the people" and there's nothing wrong with it. Hell, the only time some of those people go to church is during an election year- that's nothing but pure opportunistic hypocracy, and it is frustrating as all out.

roachboy

i think you are confusing different types of christian discourse--protestant fundamentalist discourse is a particular type--it does not cover all christian discourse--the conceptions of the relation between political and religious speech in this space is not the same as what you would find in other types. i do not see any blanket condemnation of christians either as a whole or as a diverse set of political actors here--but there **is** something basically wrong with claiming that god wants bush to be president, there is something basically wrong with an administration that thinks it is in direct communication with god---if you take the idea of democracy seriously at all, that is a problem. but again, this is a function of alignment with a particular variant of christianity--it does not extend to all of them.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Mephisto2

Let me repeat what I said just two posts above.

It's perfectly acceptable to campaign on religious grounds or to appeal to religious groups.

It's just plain scary to claim you are chosen by God to rule the free world.


Mr Mephisto

Arc101

The trouble with people who think they are an agent from God is that they believe anyone who disagrees with them must be destroyed because they are evil. I find it scary that someone who believes they are an agent from God has the power to start a nuclear war.

pan6467

What amazes me is that Christians vote for this man when he thinks Rev. Moon is a "great American and true visionary".

What's sad is 30 years ago had Bush said that, the people voting voting for him and calling him a great Christian, would boo him off the stage (and rightfully so). Amazing what strange bedfellows politics makes for.

Can I say Christ was a bumbling fool, start my own cult, give N. Korean leaders my military subs and MILLIONS of dollars for their nuke weapons programs and buy a paper, print what a political party wants to hear and get called "a great American and Vissionary."

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Mephisto2

With Bush in power? Yes. Yes you can.



Mr Mephisto

Spektr

The fact that we have to deal with religious rhetoric entering the political realm is not only disturbing, but it's dangerous at the same time. The apathetic majority of America is impressionable enough to believe that religion now plays some key role in the scheme of politics, which is horrid.

Yes, everyone has the right to free speech and yes, everyone, if they wish, can talk about their religion. BUT, the point here is not that one should silence their beliefs or negate their 1st amendment rights, but that one should NOT be dragging their individual faith into their policies as a means of validation for said policies or to appeal to religious fanatics.

Religion has absolutely no place in American politics, and it never should. The president is meant to be a leader of the masses, and the masses do not all conform to the same religious beliefs as the man in office. To bring the morals of a faith not accepted by all not only hinders the rights and views of the citizenry, it goes against everything that this country was founded on.

Mr. Bush and every other religious nut that has been given publicity (Jerry Falwell et al) are not only disintegrating the inalienable rights and privacies of the people, they are slowing down the progress of humanity by pressing the viewpoint that faith plays some role in politics.

Perhaps the 11th commandment G-d should have given to us is, "Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself."

Mephisto2

To be fair, I don't believe Bush thinks those who disagree with him must be destroyed. That may be a bit of a jump in reasoning.

Bush is not an evil man. I honestly believe he is a "good man" who is doing what he thinks is best. The problem is that I disagree with almost all of his policies. What HE thinks is best, I think is worst. Add to that the fact that he is surrounded by big business cronies and we have a recipe for disaster. This, of course, is just my opinion.

Also, with regards to people in power who have access to nuclear weapons and believe they are agents of God, the same applies to Israel really. And they haven't used them aggressively.

Mr Mephisto

Super_Mole

Simply put, Bush is an ignorant, dillusional man, that may have good intentions, but is just so out there that he is completely unfit to command the most powerful country in the world. The world already thinks were a bunch of assholes for voting him in in the first place. I really don't think it's wise to elect him back in again. Truthfully, if Bush wins this election, I think I've lost all faith in humanity.

__________________
How many kids with ADD does it take to screw in a lightbulb... lets go ride bikes.

quicksteal

Actually, Jesus had disciples so that they could spread their religion to everyone else. I hate to get religious on y'all, but you're asking for it. Bush believes he is a servant of God, and he wants to follow the plan that God has for him. Bush saying that God wants him to be President is completely logical if you assume that he is doing what God wants him to do. I know that he tries...that he prays and thinks about the decisions that he must make on a daily basis.
If Kerry truly is a follower of God, then he believes that he is doing what God wants him to...but he's most definitely not going to say that because it's unpopular to the non-religious.

go-bots

when there's a Bush, a Colon and a dick in the room, someone's gettin fucked.

tspikes51

The way Bush feels is the same way any Christian would feel: like God has a plan for them, and that that plan is running for President. Can't criticize him for that.

__________________
"I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million."
-Maddox

Mephisto2

Any Christian would feel like God wanted them to be the leader of the free world?


Erm... I don't think so. Also, I don't believe any Christian feels that God has a plan for them. Perhaps if you are an Anabaptist or Calvinist. But free will and a conspicious absense of predetermination are fundamental tenets to most Christian churches.

So, no. You can criticize him for that.


Mr Mephisto

pan6467

I have a question for you Quick, (I maybe wrong but I get the impression you are religious?), after reading what I have said about Bush's praise on Rev. Moon and knowing what Rev. Moon stands for and believes, how can you say that Bush is truly religious? I'm not tryin to flame I'm honestly trying to understand because it seems like such hypocrasy to me.

Bush called the man Rev. Moon, (who has said he is the Messiah and runs the mother of all cults, has given leaders of N. KOrea MILLIONS of dollars for their nuke programs, has sold them his warfare capable subs (liked to know how Moon got them to begin with)) a great visionary and American, simply because Rev. Moon owns the Wash. Post and prints what Bush wants to hear.

How can you vote a man as President that praises someone that says he is the Messiah and he's going to finish Jesus' work because Jesus screwed up (I linked all this in another post), yet claim the other candidate isn't religious because he doesn't push his religion onto others?

I'm sorry after I researched the Moon, GOP, Bush connections there was not a chance I would vote for him no matter what. Because I just think Bush says he is Christian to use that base. I know of no Christian that would ever support or say "great visionary and American" in praise of a man that claims to be the Messiah, or holds coronations in Congress for himself declaring himself religious leader of the world. Tio me that is too much the book of revelations (and I'm not a big believer in the book but research it. This doesn't come from "out there conspiritorial sources" it comes from MAJOR NEWS WIRES, Rev. Moon and the WT itself.

(I linked to all these on another post, if anyone wants me to link again I shall.)

As for my views on topic:

I respect a man and his religion and believe it is great to be religious, as long as if you hold a public office your views are not pushed upon me. (EXAMPLE: I don't think a judge having the 10 commandments is wrong, I think a judge that I think a judge quoting scripture during the case or in his opinions, however is wrong. I believe a president or congressman holding prayer sessions before meetings is great, I think a president or congressman using their religion to make laws (i.e. abortion, gay marriage, etc.) they do is wrong. I believe if a community votes religious and passes laws based on their beliefs we should respect that. Noone is forced to live in that area, it is not a federal case, it should never be. I don't believe religious people have the right to impose bans across a whole state or the country because then you are talking total diversity and dictating their views to others.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

quicksteal

How many Christians do you talk to? I have so many friends that would tell you that God has a plan for them. Free will and predetermination are a completely separate issue--I believe you have a choice whether or not you follow God's plan, and surely no one follows it exactly. We're not puppets on a string.

And I don't believe that God wants me to be the President. Bush believes that God does want him to be President, and I respect that. This is not a reason to vote for him(or against him)--John Kerry as a Christian should feel the same way.

In response to pan6467, I agree that Rev. Moon (is he a reverend?) is a major quack. Maybe by visionary Bush meant delusionary...
Also, I didn't say that Kerry isn't religious, I said that he doesn't show his religion the way that Bush does. I completely agree with your understaniding of the separation between church and state, and I too think a Constitutional ban on gay marriage is dumb (it would never pass, so I'm really not concerned about it).
I really do believe that Bush is a Christian, and I can tell from the way that he talks about his religion, and the way that he lights up when he talks about it. But again, that's not the reason to vote for him(or against him).