roachboy

of course it is a reason to vote against him--
unless you share the same set of assumptions, bush's entire worldview is irrational. for it to function as irrelevant, you would have to yourself be a fundamentalist protestant.
i was raised catholic and have never met anyone who ascribes to catholicism who imagines the relation of god to believer in the same terms as a fundamentalist protestant.

and who are the fundamentalists to impose their particular, kinda bizarre understanding of what constitutes "real faith" on others?

and what turn of events has brought us to the point where they do not have to frame themselves as being a particular set of believers, operating in particular cirumstances, on the basis of a very particular set of assumptions about the nature of belief?

and what does any element of that belief system have to do with democracy?

how could you expect someone who thinks god whispers in his ear to take opposition seriously?

and how is the inability to consider what opposing viewpoints have to say not a recipe for irrationality?

and how has the bush administration not demonstrated this problem again and again and again?

and if this is not a criterion that can and maybe should influence how you vote, then what is?

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Charlatan

Religion should have no place in politics... As a Canadian I am always astounded at the amount of influence religion has in US politics. We had a Federal politician who tried to play the religion card (Stockwell Day). He ended up losing many votes because no one trusted him to keep his religion out of the office.

...and people say there is no difference between Canadians and Americans...

__________________
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Mephisto2

Look at what's happening in Europe. The whole European Commission (sort of like a cabinet for European politics) is being rejected by the European Parliament because one of them has gone on record with his devout Catholic views...

As Charlatan says, religion has no part in politics.

Mr Mephisto

quicksteal

Why do you believe that Bush thinks "God whispers in his ear?" If he thought that, he would seem as crazy and radical as "Rev." Moon over at the Wash. Post. I seriously doubt that most Christians believe such a thing, so why pinpoint the President as one who does so?

And perhaps other countries have shunned religion from politics because their culture has become more secular. If you are really true to yourself, and your religion is part of who you are, how can it not be a part of the choices that you make? In other countries, there may be a majority who do not share these beliefs, and therefore disagree with the choices a religious politician would make. But right now in America, for the lives of a large number of people, the ties of religion are strong.

Don't forget who first implemented the idea of separation of church and state. It has a certain interpretation which has already been discussed on this thread, and, in my opinion, it is not the interpretation that has been given in the last few posts. Respectful disagreement--let me leave it at that.

Bustello

dictators always think they're chosen by god to do atrocities...

aliali

Senator Harkin believes that God wants Kerry to win. http://www.cedarvalleydailytimes.com...ews/news01.txt.

I'm so confused now.

Let's hear some Harkin bashing.

Stompy

According to Osama Bin Laden, god wants Americans dead... so someone's story doesn't match here!

*shakes fist at the sky*

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Rdr4evr

*sigh* A world without religion would be far more peaceful. I wish there was a way to just have religion cease to exist.

Rdr4evr

LOL, God is causing too much death .

Stompy

Agreed. Let's kill god!

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bling

Moon owns the Washington Times. Not the Wasington Post.

Just FYI.

tspikes51

Erm... I don't think you know what you're talking about. One of the most popular books on the Christian circuit right now is "A Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. It is basically explaining that God has a plan for you in your life, and that if you really want what is good for you, you will pray to him and his will (or his plan) will be carried out. The free will part comes when you accept it or not. This isn't a new concept. You are thinking of predestination, which the Calvinists and Anabaptists both believe, which you probably learned in your high school history class. This says that God picks who goes to heaven or hell before they are born. So if Bush is following God's plan, of course he thinks God wants him to be President. Read into a religion a little bit before you talk about it.

__________________
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-Maddox

Mephisto2

tspikes,

Thank you for the personal attack.

With regards to predetermination, you're right. I got the word mixed up.

I do know what I'm talking about. The fact that someone called Rick Warren wrote a book saying that "God has a plan for you" is entirely irrelevant. I was born a Catholic (as were millions of others) and we do NOT believe God has a plan to each of us. As I said earlier, the concept of free will is fundamental to (the vast majority of) Christian churches. Free will implies that it is up to the individual to decide what they do, where they go, how they act etc.

The whole idea that God has a "plan" for everyone is anathema to a lot of Christians.

Please come down off that soap-box, lose the airs and graces, and keep your nasty remarks to yourself.


Mr Mephisto

SecretMethod70

First, as a Catholic, I want to point out that I agree with Mr Mephisto.

Second, I question anyone who 1) states that they have God on their side or 2) states that they are doing God's will. I don't think any person with a sensible view of religion can claim to know what "God's will" is. That, there is a big difference between "I am doing God's will" and "I believe this is what God would like me to do in this situation." The latter doesn't bother me since it acknowledges that, while the person believes they are doing the right thing by God, they do not know God's will and, therefore, are open to acknowledging in the future that they have made a mistake. In short, I'm leery of anyone who claims to have God "on their side."

As far as religious involvement in politics, I see a disturbing trend in the western world toward wanting freedom FROM religion. The fact is, as much contempt as one may have for religion, this philosophy infringes on the first amendment rights of people to openly practice their religion. When one says "religion has no place in politics," it should be seen as to mean precisely what the first amendment says it does: the government cannot make any laws favoring any religion (or lack thereof) over others.

If a politician is Christian and pro-life for example, there is nothing wrong with that politician saying "I am Christian, therefore I am voting against this abortion bill." Religion is a fundamental part of who a person is and therefore cannot be expected to be ignore when making decisions. This is where the democratic part of our republic comes in: if we don't like the way the politician is voting or going to vote, we get to not vote for him. It's simply silly to expect that all politicians will flat out ignore their religion, being such a fundamental part of their person, when they vote. This is what WE are for, to say "I don't agree with how you will or how you have been doing your job (perhaps because I don't agree with your religion's stance on many issues) and will therefore not be voting for you."

I will never fault a politician for caring about his religion and letting it guide him and his actions. Likewise, I will never vote for a politician who's views do not match my own to a fair degree. Furthermore, even if a politician's views DO match my own, I will never vote for a politician who claims to have God on her side, as if there was some phone line she could use to call God up directly and ask what to do. This shows that, while the politician may agree with me, their logic and pragmatism is fundamentally flawed.

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