Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Politics


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-31-2004, 02:14 PM   #1 (permalink)
Please touch this.
 
Halx's Avatar
 
Owner/Admin
Location: Manhattan
How I came to a conclusion on who to vote for...

Objective Thoughts:

Wake up America. I don't give a shit who endorses who. Everyone in government can be bought. Just because so-and-so important general, veteran or congressman says Candidate A would make a better president than Candidate B means absolutely NOTHING to me.

I've been very solid in my decision on who to vote on for over a year now. It's simply a matter of weighing the actions of our country and deciding if I want to continue on this path or not.

Subjective Thoughts:

I used to not really like Bill Maher, but recently he's been really reading my mind. He's got his show on HBO and aside from it being an absolutely hilarious conservative-bashing exhibition of PURE RATIONAL LOGIC, it's also a great news source. Bill tries his best to represent conservative points of view with guests, and he makes sure to bash both parties equally, but he speaks complete utter truth. This isn't me following him as if he is gospel, this is his and my thoughts syncing up exactly.

Wake up America. We are alone in the world. George W Bush has made our country despicable in the eyes of others. 103 Olympic medals don't win anyone's favor when it comes to our foreign policy. Wake the fuck up!

Wake up America. We need allies in today's world. It doesn't matter if we're the most advanced and heavily armed nation, all we're doing is pissing other countries off. Everyone is shaking their head, looking at us through the spaces between their fingers and muttering, "Geez, they really fucked up." When will people realize that our country is not doing was well as the fucking government is telling us? Wake the fuck up!

Also, a word to all who enjoy this website's fine array of erotica, it's open and free mindset regarding sex, it's vast selection of discussions and it's friendly staff: The fundamentalist lobbyists that control the decisions that our government is currently making with their pocketbooks want nothing more than to end all of this. George W Bush may be the guy who you'd rather sit down and have a beer with, but are you EVER going to sit down and have a beer with him? He's a frat boy - a partier. Everything he ever wanted in life has been handed to him on a silver platter. Now he lets the highest bidder make decisions for him. He sounds like a demagog on the podium, lifelessly reciting words that fundies write for him. His market is the flesh-hating bible-thumbing army of repression. If you let him win... all of this could be gone.
__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]
Halx is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 02:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
Tilted Cat Head
 
Cynthetiq's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
I don't like professional politicians.

I don't vote for them. I've done a write in vote for the President since 1988 which was my first year of voting for a POTUS. This year will be no different.

People tell me I'm wasting my vote and to "vote of the lesser of two evils." I say bollocks to that then I still voted for evil.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.
Cynthetiq is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 02:27 PM   #3 (permalink)
Loser
 
I completely agree with Halx on this issue.

In the past, I have completely agreed with Cynthetiq's reasoning - but this election is quite different.

This election is not between Bush and Kerry - it is between Bush and Not Bush. Kerry and Bush are essentially the same (and in that regard they are very much different than most people in this country).

But the most important difference between the two is their symbolism connected to the vast differences in the beliefs of the people that support each of them. The most ardent Bush supporter is nothing like the most ardent Kerry supporter. The most ardent Bush supporter believes we are doing the right thing - the most ardent Kerry supporter believes we are doing the wrong thing.

That is the key element of this election. It is not a Bush or Kerry election, it is a Bush or not-Bush election. If Bush wins, America stands up for the last 4 years. If Kerry wins, America does not stand up for the last 4 years.

Any other choice, in this election, is useless.
OpieCunningham is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 05:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
Upright
 
My wife and I are going to see Bill Maher here in town on 9/11. Now that ought to be interesting....
tosan is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 06:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
can't help but laugh
 
irateplatypus's Avatar
 
Location: dar al-harb
halx,

couldn't disagree with you more about bill maher. i thought you were being sarcastic the first time i read it. you're free to do what you want, but a vote based on his analysis is, i think, a vote poorly cast.
__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill
irateplatypus is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 06:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
Addict
 
Location: nyc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halx
Objective Thoughts:

Also, a word to all who enjoy this website's fine array of erotica, it's open and free mindset regarding sex, it's vast selection of discussions and it's friendly staff: The fundamentalist lobbyists that control the decisions that our government is currently making with their pocketbooks want nothing more than to end all of this.
i have had this exact thought numerous times -- this web site represent much of what the christian right led GOP would like to end. If you vote for sex hating candidates with your left hand well jerking off to free boobies with your right you should feel the tingle prick of hypocrisy.

*edited for clarity
brianna is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 07:19 PM   #7 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by irateplatypus
halx,

couldn't disagree with you more about bill maher. i thought you were being sarcastic the first time i read it. you're free to do what you want, but a vote based on his analysis is, i think, a vote poorly cast.
Well, you obviously need to read it a third time.

" This isn't me following him as if he is gospel, this is his and my thoughts syncing up exactly." [emphasis added]


Mr Mephisto

Last edited by Mephisto2; 08-31-2004 at 10:06 PM..
Mephisto2 is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 07:20 PM   #8 (permalink)
Banned
 
Bill Maher loves Ann Coulter.

How much do you like him now?
matthew330 is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 07:28 PM   #9 (permalink)
can't help but laugh
 
irateplatypus's Avatar
 
Location: dar al-harb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Well, you obviously need to read it a third time.

" This isn't me following him as if he is gospel, this is [b]his and my thoughts syncing up[/b[ exactly." [emphasis added]


Mr Mephisto

point taken. i intended to convey that if my thoughts were like bill maher's, then i'd be wary of their logical integrity. bill maher is many things, an accomplished entertainer among other things, but i do not consider him a person who possesses sound logic. that isn't because i don't often agree with him, just that his logic often seems flawed.

but you're right, didn't take halx's post correctly. thanks for the heads up.
__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill
irateplatypus is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 07:37 PM   #10 (permalink)
Loser
 
Location: RPI, Troy, NY
Howard Stern will be off the air within a year if Bush wins.
rukkyg is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 07:38 PM   #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
sixate's Avatar
 
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
All that needs to be said is Bush is the most hated president of my generation, and the Democrats still don't have a candidate who can beat him. So what's that say about our politicians? Bush will win the election because Kerry is a total pussy with no agenda, among other things. And Bill Maher is a brainless bitch. Maybe if he'd stop smoking weed a rational thought might actually pour out of his head.

There are many things I don't like about Bush, but I don't like anything about Kerry.
sixate is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 07:39 PM   #12 (permalink)
I change
 
ARTelevision's Avatar
 
Location: USA
Many awake Americans will be voting to reelect the President - those who understand that the people of the world still see America as the Land of the Free and the Land of Opportunity - bar none; those who understand that geo-political alliances are based on self-interest and that our allies will continue to participate as America's allies; those who realize that web sites such as this one have thrived during the current administration and will continue to thrive; those who do not confuse rhetorical and political positioning and power-brokering with the ongoing evolution of culture, and so forth.

The fair and balanced views here on this site epitomize what is best about the opportunity for open expression and dialog. Agreeing to disagree, maintaining mutual respect across our philosophical and political positions is what we do very well here.

I appreciate this opportunity to respond.
__________________
create evolution
ARTelevision is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 08:10 PM   #13 (permalink)
Please touch this.
 
Halx's Avatar
 
Owner/Admin
Location: Manhattan
Ok, I gotta defend Bill a little bit. I think he's changed a bit because I used to think he was a total complete idiot. Now, I've been watching his NEW show.. have you? I really think he's turned a corner and is now on the right track.

Art, as a fan of America, I gotta disagree with you on an ethical level. The USA under Bush's direction is a big giant bully. People may still be allies with us and suck up to us, but that doesn't mean they like us. I want to be liked. I want people to say, "Hey, you're from America? I LOVE that country!" Nobody is gonna be saying those words as long as GWB maintains his shoot-first-ask-later mentality.

Also, it's not the destination, but the progression. The fact that the TFP is alive says nothing good or bad about what's going on. However, if you look at what is happening outside of the TFP (censorship galore) you begin to realize that eventually we will be next. I have no desire to stand around to see if you're right about it.
__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]
Halx is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 08:43 PM   #14 (permalink)
can't help but laugh
 
irateplatypus's Avatar
 
Location: dar al-harb
to be fair i've not seen bill maher since his "politically incorrect" days. i disagreed with maher fundamentally on his interpretation of current events and the format of his show was frustrating for me to watch. me and the roomie just got digital cable with the ol' home box office package, maybe i'll give his new show a try.

i want to be from the country that everyone loves also. believe me, i'm an avid backpack traveler... i have felt the brunt of anti-american sentiment firsthand. but i think that although the opinions of the world community are important, we must do what we believe is right before we cater to their preferences. that is to say, i value international opinion... but i do not judge the justice of our actions completely by that measure alone. someone said that the formula for failure is to try to please everyone... i think that statement has some relevance here.
__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill
irateplatypus is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 08:46 PM   #15 (permalink)
Addict
 
Location: nyc
art: it sounds little like you're saying that we should trust that things will be fine despite evidence to the contrary. the president professes to be anti-pornography and anti-homosexual, his party has repeatedly tried to censor the internet (mostly sites like this that provide access to pornography) -- why should we believe that "sites such as this one... will continue to thrive" when the official position of the GOP is counter to that belief?
brianna is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 09:04 PM   #16 (permalink)
Tilted Cat Head
 
Cynthetiq's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianna
art: it sounds little like you're saying that we should trust that things will be fine despite evidence to the contrary. the president professes to be anti-pornography and anti-homosexual, his party has repeatedly tried to censor the internet (mostly sites like this that provide access to pornography) -- why should we believe that "sites such as this one... will continue to thrive" when the official position of the GOP is counter to that belief?
while today's GOP isn't the same as the Reagan GOP days, there was plenty of fervor to ban Huslter, Penthouse, and other magazines like it. They endured because of the checks and balances.

I'm of the opinion that on either side, not matter what, it's going to say that it's not forever. The 20's were very promiscuous and profitable and then the 50's it was very conservative. In the scope of the big picture, I'm not worried.

And as a manager of 15 people I learned very quickly that I wasn't going to appease all 15 people. I'm going to piss off and upset some because I had to be more concerned about getting something done, as opposed to being popular and liked.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.
Cynthetiq is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 09:06 PM   #17 (permalink)
Banned
 
The USA under anybody's direction is a "big giant bully" in the eyes of most who aren't American. We will assume this role as long as we are in the position we have been for the last 50 years, and bet your ass as much complaining as there is outside of our country - none of them would have it differently.

As a 12-15 year old in Germany from '85-'88, I can tell you from personal experience Europe's attitude wasn't then "Oh you're from America, I LOVE that country." In the course of 1 waking day i could travel through four different cultures (France, Belgium, Lichtenschtien, Germany) and go from being treated like a Leper (France in a particular - they're reputation precedes them, they'll never like us), to being treated like a king. Fact is, we are and never will be "just Americans". I felt this as a 12 year old. Adults treating ME, at 12, like i either personally liberated them or have come to Europe to personally kill their leaders and run their country.

One thing is for sure however, those that respected us were almost exclusively the older generation. The younger generation of Europeans want to hate us. Iraq, Bush, etc have nothing to do with it. We are who we are and we play the role we play. Our purpose hasn't changed in 50 years. We protect the world, and the world would have it no other way.
matthew330 is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 09:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
Banned
 
Rdr4evr's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halx
I want people to say, "Hey, you're from America? I LOVE that country!"
Although I despise Bush as well, most of the population will never say that about America whether he is in office or not. Dubya is just making it much easier for them to hate America though.
Rdr4evr is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 09:30 PM   #19 (permalink)
Loser
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew330
The younger generation of Europeans want to hate us. Iraq, Bush, etc have nothing to do with it. We are who we are and we play the role we play. Our purpose hasn't changed in 50 years. We protect the world, and the world would have it no other way.
I can't see how anyone could say that Iraq, Bush, etc have nothing to do with current world opinion of the U.S.

As for our purpose not changing in 50 years, it seems to me it has drastically changed. During that time we dealt with a Cold War where each side manipulated other parts of the world to antagonize the other side. This has all changed - now we are dealing with parts of the world that we manipulated coming back to bite us. To express either disbelief or shock at this rather significant change is a myopic view. We do not protect the world - we protect ourselves, and in the process we attempt to bend the world to our concept of civility, justice, righteousness and morality.
OpieCunningham is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 09:33 PM   #20 (permalink)
Banned
 
..and why do you think that Rdr? Why do you think most of the population will never say that about America?

It's just that you're post seems to insinuate it's something inherant about who/what we are. I'd like you to elaborate. If it's not the current President, what is it inherantly about America that these people will never have respect for?
matthew330 is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 09:48 PM   #21 (permalink)
Jarhead
 
whocarz's Avatar
 
Location: Colorado
Either some of you don't remember a few years ago or I'm crazy, but I remember that there was strong anti-US sentiment from the rest of the world back in the Clinton days. The people who hate us now are those that have hated us for decades. The reason is almost unimportant. They will use any excuse to hate America. So be it. I imagine USA haters will still hate us if Kerry gets elected. I don't think voting so other countries will "like" us is important.
__________________
If there exists anything mightier than destiny, then it is the courage to face destiny unflinchingly. -Geibel

Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly
whocarz is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 09:52 PM   #22 (permalink)
Banned
 
From personal experience, the younger generation of Europeans "hated" America for nothing more than the political role we play. A hate that was evident as a 12 year old almost 20 years ago. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that we were loved up untill the Iraq war. The current situation has provided a catalyst for ligitimacy to their hatred that is motivated by politcal envy. Granted there is alot more to it, but in a nutshell...they hate us as a political power, and the more power we excert, it would make sense the more antagonistic they will feel. Their feeling's about America are not limited to Bush (or whoever the current president), they are motivated by years of politcal envy.

As for your other point, sure we manipulated parts of the world for what we believed to be the greater good, and sure things have come back to bite us in the ass. But are you suggesting that because of actions we took in the past for reasons that were historically relevant, that we alleviated our responsibilites to solve the problems that arise in the future. I would think we are even more so for that very fact.
matthew330 is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 10:08 PM   #23 (permalink)
Tilted Cat Head
 
Cynthetiq's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
I'm trying to think back to ANY president that was able to convince the rest of the world that we were good and loved by the world. I don't see it at all, especially since pre-WWI we were pretty isolationistic.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.
Cynthetiq is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 10:19 PM   #24 (permalink)
Junkie
 
matthew, if you really think that the current opinion of America in Europe is no different from that held only a few years ago, then you are sorely mistaken.

As one of the contemporaneous "young Europeans" you refer to, I can assure you that the world's opinion of the USA is measurably WORSE now than it has ever been.

I myself spend hours defending America with my friends. I keep telling them "It's not the country, it's the current Administration you should be angry with." Unfortunately not many of them agree and they now have a strong distaste for the country as a whole. This is a shame, for the world would be a much worse place without America. But even I (who believes in the inherent goodwill and positive nature of the US) think that the world would be a better place with GWB gone.

The man has done a disservice to your country (in my opinion), has made several fundamental mistakes and is a driving force for dissention and knee-jerk reactionism in American politics. How many Americans believe Hussein was directly (or even indirectly) responsible for 9/11? A great deal. And that is a lie. He brought your country to war on the basis of falsehoods and continues to do harm around the world. America (not Bush) is a force for good and I believe it will outlast and hopefully outgrow the harm he has done it. Even if it takes another four years to get rid of him... But harm it he has and the sooner he is out of the White House the better.

It's not even just the war in Iraq. It's about environmentalism, fundamentalism (yes, ]Christian fundamentalism), inequitable social policies, "big business" politics, unilateralism, trade... the list goes on and on.

I love America, as much as a typical, liberal minded non-American can, but I have a stong distate and dislike (verging on fear and hatred) of Bush and his cronies.

And THAT my friend is what is worrying. If your friends begin to dislike you, then you must be doing something wrong...


Mr Mephisto

Last edited by Mephisto2; 08-31-2004 at 10:23 PM..
Mephisto2 is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 10:23 PM   #25 (permalink)
Loser
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew330
From personal experience, the younger generation of Europeans "hated" America for nothing more than the political role we play.
I think it goes far beyond politics. It is a cultural issue. America is the melting pot - we take in cultures and merge them out of existence - and as our exportation of our "culture" increases, the backlash from other cultures is amplified. As for the political aspect, my view is that we are perceived as hypocrites. We claim that we strive for freedom and liberty and the "greater good" for the whole planet - but the view is that we strive for dominance and control and ownership of the entire planet. This is accurately summed up by the actions of our corporations and the many statements by Americans, for example, the denuciation of the U.N. If it were true that we desired freedom and not control, our first and foremost priority would be ensuring the effectiveness of the U.N., not subverting it when it won't do what we want. The U.N. is the closest thing the world has to planet-wide democracy, by definition, America cannot be a replacement for it.

That also happens to be a view that I hold.
Quote:
As for your other point, sure we manipulated parts of the world for what we believed to be the greater good, and sure things have come back to bite us in the ass. But are you suggesting that because of actions we took in the past for reasons that were historically relevant, that we alleviated our responsibilites to solve the problems that arise in the future. I would think we are even more so for that very fact.
I'm suggesting that manipulation is not the correct course - particularly if you intend to claim a "greater good" or moral superiority. The problems that arise in the future are a direct result of the actions we have taken in the past - and as long as we deny that and continue along the same course, we are in no position to "solve" the problems of the future.
OpieCunningham is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 10:42 PM   #26 (permalink)
Tilted Cat Head
 
Cynthetiq's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
Mephisto,

I had to defend America and american lifestyle when I was living in Singapore in 89. Lots of the countries in SE Asia already hated the Americans. I distinctly recall PM Lee Quan Yew saying that he was going to take American assistance and corporations for now and then when the Americans turn their backs they won't know what hit them. There are plenty of free trade agreements and American companies with major offices and factories in that area.

Most of the world has a love/hate relationship with the US, they love to hate us.
Cynthetiq is offline  
Old 08-31-2004, 11:07 PM   #27 (permalink)
Banned
 
Rdr4evr's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew330
..and why do you think that Rdr? Why do you think most of the population will never say that about America?

It's just that you're post seems to insinuate it's something inherant about who/what we are. I'd like you to elaborate. If it's not the current President, what is it inherantly about America that these people will never have respect for?
I don’t know if you haven't noticed, but America has been hated for quite some time now. Be it what reason, whether ridiculous or valid, it is not going to change anytime in the near future. Some people envy USA for their freedom and therefore hate them, some hate them for the way they abuse they’re power and sadly but truly get away with it. Oh, don’t forget the unnecessary wars either, that’s factors in the strong hatred.
Rdr4evr is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 12:01 AM   #28 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
Mephisto,

I had to defend America and american lifestyle when I was living in Singapore in 89. Lots of the countries in SE Asia already hated the Americans. I distinctly recall PM Lee Quan Yew saying that he was going to take American assistance and corporations for now and then when the Americans turn their backs they won't know what hit them. There are plenty of free trade agreements and American companies with major offices and factories in that area.
Well, the original poster referred to Europe, but this doesn't change anything. I can distinctly remember US President Reagan saying "the bombing starts in 10 minutes" (off microphone, but picked up none the less), but that doesn't mean many people actually believed him. There is also the issue of playing to your domestic audience. Singapore could not exist without the US, so comments like that are just plain hot air.

My point is that it is an undeniable fact that America's reputation has suffered greatly due to Bush's policies. Not even Neocons can argue against that. They may say they don't care, or try to fool the foolish into believing "the world is a safer place now" (HAH!!), but every sound minded person knows that America is no longer the country at which the majority of the world look with admiration.

Quote:
Most of the world has a love/hate relationship with the US, they love to hate us.
That's a vast over-simplification and someone of your intelligence should know that. In fact, I'm just going to assume it was a throw-away "sound bite".


Mr Mephisto

Last edited by Mephisto2; 09-01-2004 at 12:04 AM..
Mephisto2 is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 04:56 AM   #29 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Flawed Logic is subjective to personal interpretation of what constitutes fact. I find the Logic of Mr. Maher to be relatively accurate, and enjoy the diversity of his ever changing panel of guest commentators.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 04:57 AM   #30 (permalink)
I change
 
ARTelevision's Avatar
 
Location: USA
There are many vast oversimplifications here. Each poster has posted some brief sentences of opinion or "sound bites" without offering reams of documentation in support. That's reasonable. These are our opinions. The fact that every one of us has posted vast oversimplifications here does not reflect on our intelligence.
__________________
create evolution
ARTelevision is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 05:44 AM   #31 (permalink)
Tilted Cat Head
 
Cynthetiq's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
Mephisto, yes it is a gross oversimplification, but it does seem to me to be what I witness from the masses. I don't encounter it in the individuals I meet in my travels. I have yet to meet one person that doesn't have some negative opinions on the administration. I don't wear my politics on my sleeve. I have coworkers depending on which table I sit for lunch bash the republicans or democrats. I just sit and listen.

I do find it as ironic as the next person that most people even those living here as resident aliens have hateful viewpoints towards the administration of the US, but still love the individual people that come from it. They love the land finding the parks and geography beautiful, but hate the government that protects and upkeeps those lands.
Cynthetiq is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 06:35 AM   #32 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
i am most familiar with france, so i'll talk about my experience living there for a few years...

one example among many many possible: during the first gulf war, i was living in paris and was interested in how the antiwar movement was mobilizing, so i attend lots of meetings, demos, etc.. the slogans at demos for example, were often extremely harsh toward the administration--the state department had apparently reacted to this kind of thing and had issued warnings at the time that americans should stay away stay away and not look "too american" if they were out and about---on the first day of the war i found myself around bastille wearing some kind of university sweatshirt (errors in carry on packing came pack to haunt me when my luggage took a little seperate vacation--after a flurry of phonecalls, we were reconciled and my clothing decided to give our relationship another try about a week later...) and found that i was welcomed by the folk i talked to around the demo. and in all the meetings i went to. i did my dissertation research on a cadre of revolutionary marxist militants and was welcomed at every point, was treated with great warmth by these folk--from the outside, you would imagine that this would be a group whose political opposition to american policy would extend the furthest--and i found that these were lovely, warm, intelligent people for whom a seperation between public and administration in the american case was taken for granted, just as they assumed a separation between the policies of the french government and the public would be applied to them.

it seems fundamental to any vestige of thinking-through-democracy--even one as shallow as the american--must presuppose such a distinction between public and administration. the assumption of an identity between these terms has never turned out well for the people.


as for the cliche about the french hating the americans--which i suppose matthew could have been implicitly referring to--i have found that it is in the main bullshit EXCEPT for those who conform to a particular kind of stereotype--those who flood the tourist areas, not bothering to even start to speak any french not bothering to figure out anything about where they are, treating the place like it is a zoo---hang around for any amount of time near the tourist areas, and you will probably find yourself understanding this attitidue far better than you imagine you would.

on another point, i cannot see how anyone could possible argue with the fact that george w bush has severely damaged american credibility internationally. that damage will continue so long as he is in office--but i suspect that this same kind of ability to make distinctions that you will find amongst people in regular lilfe will extend to those in positions of power, and that once bush is run out of office (one way or another) the damage his policies have done and continue to do will begin to reverse. i do think that this damage will be much harder to reverse if bush wins a second term--this is but one of a near riot of reasons why i opppose him.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 08:04 AM   #33 (permalink)
can't help but laugh
 
irateplatypus's Avatar
 
Location: dar al-harb
yes, logic can be construed as flawed if someone doesn't agree with the premises on which the logic is based. i don't agree with many of maher's premises, but that is that case with a lot of pundits.

maher's problem is that (on the shows i watched of his politically incorrect program a few years back) his conclusions aren't logical extensions of his premises. that isn't a matter of factual legitimacy, that is an issue of disconnected thought.

i took a logic class a few years back that was offered by our philosophy dept. we examined "arguments from the wild" (arguments taken from popular pundits and editorials about current events) with our logic goggles on. mr. maher's sytem of thought was one of the most flawed we examined in the small samples we studied, though we found similar issues with sean hannity and rush limbaugh.
__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill
irateplatypus is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 09:40 AM   #34 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
an argument can be formally correct if it obeys the rules for combination/derivation--which would include relation to premises--but it does not involve your personal agreement with the premise. i'm just saying that if you want to play this game, be careful.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 11:47 AM   #35 (permalink)
I change
 
ARTelevision's Avatar
 
Location: USA
This evokes an observation, based on the current political climate.
I'm fascinated by folks who seem to think they will convince someone with an opposing political view by process of rational/logical debate. I've never seen that happen. If I thought it was effective, I would engage in it myself - which I do not.

Clearly rational and logical arguments can be constructed to support nearly every opinion humans hold. Evidently there is something else at work here. It could be called blind belief, argument from assumption, or emotionalism - but I think it's more than that.

Experience is not something that can be formulated well in logical/rational contexts. There are essential aspects of our perception and cognition that are not demonstrable, yet they guide our strongly held convictions. One of them is our ability to ascertain character. That is a fairly unexpainable phenomenon, yet we employ it in making judgements about people.

It does stun me how the tendency to argue points, which are in all instances moot, continues unabated here and far more relentlessly in the politicalized press and media.
__________________
create evolution
ARTelevision is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 11:49 AM   #36 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
as for the cliche about the french hating the americans--which i suppose matthew could have been implicitly referring to--i have found that it is in the main bullshit EXCEPT for those who conform to a particular kind of stereotype--those who flood the tourist areas, not bothering to even start to speak any french not bothering to figure out anything about where they are, treating the place like it is a zoo---hang around for any amount of time near the tourist areas, and you will probably find yourself understanding this attitidue far better than you imagine you would.
It's not just the French who hate that "type" of American. Anyone remember National Lampoons European Vacation with Chevy Chase? The Griswalds? That's the kind of American that is hated by not just the French, but the world. And to be honest, most of the rest of America I think too...

:-)

But that's off topic.


Mr Mephisto

Last edited by Mephisto2; 09-01-2004 at 12:10 PM.. Reason: Logical error
Mephisto2 is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 12:09 PM   #37 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARTelevision
This evokes an observation, based on the current political climate.
I'm fascinated by folks who seem to think they will convince someone with an opposing political view by process of rational/logical debate. I've never seen that happen. If I thought it was effective, I would engage in it myself - which I do not.
Well, meet your first one ART.

I have been convinced to change my opinions on several occasions. Let's discuss a few relevant ones.

1) My initial opinion was that the war in Iraq was unjustified and dangerous. Even though Hussein had flouted UN sanctions I felt that military actions should be the last resort. I was convinced OTHERWISE by believing the arguments of Bush/Blair/Powell that Iraq were developing WMD and (specifically) that they could deploy within 45 minutes. Iraq, according to Blair, had over 100 litres of Anthrax, enough to kill over a million people.

All lies.

Against my initial feelings I argued that the war was justified, that if people had invaded Germany earlier the Holocaust could have been avoided (poor analogy but one people seem to relate to), that manifold UN resolutions were ignored etc.

2) In my heart I still believed the was "right", as it removed a tyrant from power. However, when it turned out that the war was based on false premises and was likely a simple extension of a family fued between the Bush and Husseins, then I listened to the arguments of the other side. I began to see their point, to understand that I was wrong. I now openly admit that.

Here's another

1) I used to be a clear supporter of state ownership of utilities. I didn't believe private enterprise had a place to play in these fundamental services, and that the profit motive would simply reduce the level of care they were obliged to offer all their customers.

2) Having listened and watched over the years, I'm now of the opinion that it does have a place. I would still like to see government ownership of a high percentage of at least ONE company in each area, but I no longer support the entirely socialist position I once did.


I could go on and on.

Quote:
Clearly rational and logical arguments can be constructed to support nearly every opinion humans hold. Evidently there is something else at work here. It could be called blind belief, argument from assumption, or emotionalism - but I think it's more than that.
What does that mean? If it's a simple observation (or opinion), what does it do to develop the thread's argument?

I've been reading your comments here, and with the greatest respect, I don't really understand what you mean to say or contribute. You seem to step in occasionally and make some obscurely worded and generally unrelated comment. There's an entire Philosophy board for this kind of argument or discussion on the nature of truth, logic, opinion etc. You can join the likes of Karl Popper and debate the death of logical positivism there if you wish. But it's kinda out of place here.

I hasten to add that I've only notice this on this thread, and these comments are meant in good nature.

Quote:
Experience is not something that can be formulated well in logical/rational contexts. There are essential aspects of our perception and cognition that are not demonstrable, yet they guide our strongly held convictions. One of them is our ability to ascertain character. That is a fairly unexpainable phenomenon, yet we employ it in making judgements about people.
So what you're trying to say that people have different opinions and that they're sometimes not easy to explain; this, even though our opinions tend to be rather important as they help us make judgements on people.

Erm... so what? That's nothing new, has no real relevance to the topic of the thread and seems to be expressed in an elitist manner.

I'm kinda interested in starting an entirely new thread on this topic, but not here. :-)

Quote:
It does stun me how the tendency to argue points, which are in all instances moot, continues unabated here and far more relentlessly in the politicalized press and media.
You believe it's moot to argue points? Again, a topic for the Philosophy forum and one I would be happy to debate. :-)


Mr Mephisto
Mephisto2 is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 12:21 PM   #38 (permalink)
I change
 
ARTelevision's Avatar
 
Location: USA
I'm in favor of constructive engagement and not disputation.
Much of what you say above is laudable and true for you. It is not, in general, the way political debate is conducted. I post here because I have an interest in the opinions of others, not because I feel a need to respond to point-by-point arguments or to convince anyone of anything. I find the diversity of opinion - in itself - illuminating.
__________________
create evolution
ARTelevision is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 12:26 PM   #39 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: San Diego
Why do people hate the Yankees?

They obviously are a great team yet throught this country people either love them or hate them. They have the most money, they are powerful yet people always say 'Yankess suck' how can this be their record speaks for itself.

Some people just hates winners, can't do anything about that. They will not be happy until we are taken down a notch.
98MustGT is offline  
Old 09-01-2004, 12:30 PM   #40 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARTelevision
I'm in favor of constructive engagement and not disputation.
Much of what you say above is laudable and true for you. It is not, in general, the way political debate is conducted.
You don't believe political debate is conducted by debate and refutation?

Quote:
I post here because I have an interest in the opinions of others, not because I feel a need to respond to point-by-point arguments or to convince anyone of anything. I find the diversity of opinion - in itself - illuminating.
Touché

Mr Mephisto
Mephisto2 is offline  
 

Tags
conclusion, vote

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:13 PM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360