The bad news about Iraq - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

hammer4all · 05-26-2004, 08:15 PM

Well, I think one good thread deserves another. So here is a short list of bad things that have happened in this quagmire we call the war in Iraq. I say "short" because 90% of these news stories below are from the past month alone. Much of it gets little attention in the media.

Feel free to add any other links you may know of regarding the NEGATIVE things happening in Iraq.

---------
Ex-U.S. Marine: I Killed Civilians in Iraq

Inside Fallujah: An Independent Journalist Returns To US After Being Captured by the Iraqi Resistance

A Letter to the President: "Mr. Bush, You'd Have Liked My Brother"

Parents of U.S. Soldier Killed In Iraq: "My Son Was Betrayed By the Bush Administration"

Iraqis Liken U.S. Occupation to Saddam Hussein Regime

Iraqi Imam Imprisoned and Tortured Under Ba'ath Regime Blasts U.S. Abuse of Prisoners

Doctor Who Treated Thousands of GIs Wounded in Iraq: "Severest Form of Injuries I've Seen in My Career"

U.S. Assassinates Two Shiite Clerics Organizing Nonviolent Resistance

Stadium of Death: Fallujah Residents Bury Their Dead In Aftermath of Bloody U.S. Siege

Dems Ignore Negroponte's Death Squad Past, Look to Confirm Iraq Appointment

Death Squad Ambassador: Senate Hearings Begin on Negroponte Iraq Appointment

Is War Against Iraq Legal Or Not? a Debate Between Roger Normand and Ruth Wedgewood -- Hint: No

Robert Fisk on Wesley Clark & Iraq: “What is Happening Is An Absolute Slaughter Every Night of Iraqi People”

“The Crazies Are Back”: Bush Sr.’s CIA Briefer Discusses How Wolfowitz & Allies Falsely Led the U.S. To War

Tariq Ali vs. Christopher Hitchens on the Occupation of Iraq: Postponed Liberation or Recolonisation?

82 percent of Iraqis oppose U.S. occupation

Key findings: Nationwide survey of 3,500 Iraqis

Pictures of Destruction and Civilian Victims of the Anglo-American Aggression in Iraq

Iraq Body Count

Bush administration is seeking from the Security Council the legal authority to continue the occupation indefinitely

Ex-Rumsfeld Aide Admits Occupation of Iraq a Failure

Abuse of Captives More Widespread, Says Army Survey

Pro-War Think Tank Warns: Far Worse May Follow

Iraqis Accuse U.S. Troops of Theft in House Raids

Iraq's Interim Governing Council Dismayed Over Draft UN Resolution

Leaked Memo Reveals Fear That US Tactics Are Endangering Troops

Continuing the Cover-Up? Military Takes Action Against Key Witness in Abu Ghraib Abuse Scandal

'US Soldiers Started to Shoot Us, One by One'

Officials Say Rumsfeld OKd Harsh Interrogation Methods

Rights Groups Oppose U.S. Bid for Exemption from War Crimes Tribunal

U.S. Wants Another UN Exemption from Criminal Court

Iraqis Say Justice Was Not Done

Shocking Details on Abuse of Reuters Staffers in Iraq

US Sees No Date For Exit, Aide Says

Fewer Than 25,000 Iraqis Working on Reconstruction Funded by U.S.

US Troops Disgruntled Over Extended Stay in Iraq

White House Released Claims of Defector Deemed Unreliable by CIA

Report: White House Memo Backed Abuse

How a secret Pentagon program came to Abu Ghraib

US Risks Fury of Shia as Imam Ali's Shrine is Hit

Sunnis and Shias Uniting Against U.S.

Berg Died for Bush, Rumsfeld 'Sins' - Father

70% to 90% of Iraq Prisoners 'Arrested by Mistake'

Iraq-Vietnam Parallels Pile Up

Iraqis Report Deepening Doubts About Legitimacy of the US-led Occupation

Some Generals Fear Iraq War Becoming Unwinnable Despite Superior Firepower

War Tab Swamps Bush’s Estimate

A Soldier's Story: Accused Abuser Recounts Prison Life

Iraqi Tells How He Was Stripped, Beaten and Sexually Abused by US Military

Iraq Prisoner Abuses Widespread, Rights Groups Say

Widow of Maine Soldier Urges Americans to Question Policy

Editor-In-Chief of US-Funded Iraqi Newspaper Quits, Complaining of American Control

Wife: Soldiers in Iraqi Abuse Case Are Scapegoats

Soldiers' Story Shifts From Pride to Shame

seretogis · 05-26-2004, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hammer4all
Feel free to add any other links you may know of regarding the NEGATIVE things happening in Iraq.

If you are only interested in the negative things happening in Iraq, why bother starting a thread? This isn't a discussion, it's a post a links, 98% of which are to two sites which are far from objective.

matthew330 · 05-26-2004, 08:42 PM

Arbitrarily picked one of your links to click, came up with "The number of U.S. troops killed in Iraq stands close to 300"....last 90 days, eh?

Quite a riveting "favorites" collection you got there.

nanofever · 05-26-2004, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by matthew330
Arbitrarily picked one of your links to click, came up with "The number of U.S. troops killed in Iraq stands close to 300"....last 90 days, eh?

Quite a riveting "favorites" collection you got there.

Ad Hom, the lazy debater's tool for success.

Scipio · 05-26-2004, 09:29 PM

Well, it's the only defense against the spread. (/cx debate reference)

hammer4all · 05-26-2004, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
If you are only interested in the negative things happening in Iraq, why bother starting a thread? This isn't a discussion, it's a post a links, 98% of which are to two sites which are far from objective.

Well, I was half-joking; I was trying to be the political opposite of this post before it was moved. However, people can post what they want.

Most of the content at Common Dreams was originally published by other mainstream sources. Read the "Published" line before the title.

Quote:

Originally posted by matthew330
Arbitrarily picked one of your links to click, came up with "The number of U.S. troops killed in Iraq stands close to 300"....last 90 days, eh?

Quite a riveting "favorites" collection you got there.

Which one? It must have been a good one. Feel free to "arbitrarily" pick another. Most links weren't in my "favorites," but from the site archives.

nanofever · 05-26-2004, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scipio
Well, it's the only defense against the spread. (/cx debate reference)

Bah, that's just unwillingness to adapt to a newer aspect of the game. Spread all you want, off-case will be link-turned into advantages and on-case should be prepped with blocks to answer any viable arguments.

Then again, I pulled dirty, dirty tricks as a debater. Think Irony cases that skirt topicality with a 30 point T = no voter block, with a critique of T saying T is a form of oppression and a few hiddin RVI's and IVI's in that block. Using T answers to bind people to DA links was also a favorite evil play of mine.

/would like an aisle seat to cx debater hell

Kadath · 05-27-2004, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nanofever
Bah, that's just unwillingness to adapt to a newer aspect of the game. Spread all you want, off-case will be link-turned into advantages and on-case should be prepped with blocks to answer any viable arguments.

Then again, I pulled dirty, dirty tricks as a debater. Think Irony cases that skirt topicality with a 30 point T = no voter block, with a critique of T saying T is a form of oppression and a few hiddin RVI's and IVI's in that block. Using T answers to bind people to DA links was also a favorite evil play of mine.

/would like an aisle seat to cx debater hell

NEEEEERRRRDDD!!!

matthew330 · 05-27-2004, 06:36 AM

"Then again, I pulled dirty, dirty tricks as a debater. Think Irony cases that skirt topicality with a 30 point T = no voter block, with a critique of T saying T is a form of oppression and a few hiddin RVI's and IVI's in that block. Using T answers to bind people to DA links was also a favorite evil play of mine."

Mommy!! Mommy!! Look what i learned in school today. You have college's, we have talk radio.

Was there anything to debate? Talk about lazy, he posted what 40 links from two sources - why not just post the two websites.

filtherton · 05-27-2004, 09:30 AM

Did you guys know that iraq has puppies and ice cream, and if so, how can you continue to claim anything bad there is going on in light of this knowledge?

onetime2 · 05-27-2004, 10:19 AM

I heard the US forces were eating the puppies and burning the ice cream. At least according to MoveOn.

filtherton · 05-27-2004, 10:24 AM

They're like totally flipping out and wailing on their guitars and killing people and not even caring about it.

Kadath · 05-27-2004, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by matthew330
Mommy!! Mommy!! Look what i learned in school today. You have college's, we have talk radio.

Was there anything to debate? Talk about lazy, he posted what 40 links from two sources - why not just post the two websites.

In our colleges we teach proper use of the apostrophe!

Also, to be fair, he used 7 sources. The majority of the links were from two.

matthew330 · 05-27-2004, 11:50 AM

...and you'll go far with that - congratulations.

hammer4all · 05-27-2004, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hammer4all
Most of the content at Common Dreams was originally published by other mainstream sources. Read the "Published" line before the title.

nanofever · 05-27-2004, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by matthew330
"Then again, I pulled dirty, dirty tricks as a debater. Think Irony cases that skirt topicality with a 30 point T = no voter block, with a critique of T saying T is a form of oppression and a few hiddin RVI's and IVI's in that block. Using T answers to bind people to DA links was also a favorite evil play of mine."

Mommy!! Mommy!! Look what i learned in school today....

Was that a jab? I'm curious what exactly the point of the quote was. Since, I'm a pretty shoddy mind-reader could you explain what you mean?

matthew330 · 05-27-2004, 02:36 PM

It was a 3 part response to your initial post "Ad Hom, the lazy debaters tool for success", listed in order of relevance / intent:

Part A: What comes around goes around.

Part B: Being that there was no debate initiated, unlike "good things happening in Iraq", where the poster had at least two paragraphs on why he posted/what he thought, i couldn't possibly have employed any sort of successfull debate tactic for lazy people.

Part C: This part was unrelated to the thread so it wasn't expounded on, and initiated by the the recognition of the previous comment that you are almost certainly a college student, and almost certainly liberal (right?) reminded me of my days in college when liberalism was shoved down my throat, and the irony that you guys get so upset with AM radio and Fox news.

And in case you were wondering that light-hearted little jab came in, I tried to tie it all together with my last sentence "Was there anything to debate? Talk about lazy....", letting you know precisely where that came from.

In a nutshell, it was essentially a T answer binding together each of the DA links ( i thought you would be impressed, thereby making up for my previous post)

nanofever · 05-27-2004, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by matthew330
It was a 3 part response to your initial post "Ad Hom, the lazy debaters tool for success", listed in order of relevance / intent:

Part A: What comes around goes around.

Part B: Being that there was no debate initiated, unlike "good things happening in Iraq", where the poster had at least two paragraphs on why he posted/what he thought, i couldn't possibly have employed any sort of successfull debate tactic for lazy people.

Part C: This part was unrelated to the thread so it wasn't expounded on, and initiated by the the recognition of the previous comment that you are almost certainly a college student, and almost certainly liberal (right?) reminded me of my days in college when liberalism was shoved down my throat, and the irony that you guys get so upset with AM radio and Fox news.

And in case you were wondering that light-hearted little jab came in, I tried to tie it all together with my last sentence "Was there anything to debate? Talk about lazy....", letting you know precisely where that came from.

In a nutshell, it was essentially a T answer binding together each of the DA links ( i thought you would be impressed, thereby making up for my previous post)

Oh okay, thanks for the clarification.

1. The comment "Arbitrarily picked one of your links to click, came up with 'The number of U.S. troops killed in Iraq stands close to 300"....last 90 days, eh?' Quite a riveting "favorites" collection you got there." was an add hom, or perhaps a strawman depending on your perspective. You chose to attack the date of a single article, unless somehow time can allow those soldiers to be resurrected and the deaths contained become inaccurate - the source still has a legitimate argument. The original poster said that "90%" of the posts are within the past month. I checked about all of them and they were in the past month (30 days). The deaths are still facts and you haven't tried to answer the information present, you simply tried to spin the date as a coherent argument. Furthermore, you took one date, of one source and used that to group the rest of the links as illegitimate. If that isn't lazy debating, I am unsure what would qualify.

2. The argument that he only posted two sources is also bunk. He posted two sources which are a collection of other sources. ABC News, NYT, LA Times, SF Cronicle, Reuters, ect were sources which commondream decided to post from. In reality, this thread has overwhelming evidence that a good number of significant sources have serious problems with Iraq's current shape.

3. I don't see the relevance of another thread. Even if this thread was created for parody or juxtaposition, I don't see how comparing the quality of the original can be viewed as an argument against the sources contained. This thread was a source of information about the Iraq war and for discussion of those sources. Your choice to avoid the articles is clearly a "lazy debater tactic".

4.
College - Fall 2004, starting at UCSB
Liberal - Usually, depending on the subject.

Kadath · 05-27-2004, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by matthew330
...and you'll go far with that - congratulations.

Thanks. I feel knowledge of my native tongue is a good solid baseline for whatever path I choose. It's working out pretty well so far.

tecoyah · 05-27-2004, 09:10 PM

It is a true pity, that we come to this as a community. Perhaps you should all look at the posts you have placed for us all to see.Do you really want to be represented by what you have written here, and if so, Why?

You seem a bit off course to me....maybe a return to the topic would help.

There is bad news in Iraq.

There is good news in Iraq.

There is a war in Iraq.

And there will be for quite some time.

05-26-2004, 08:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
hammer4all Insane	The bad news about Iraq Well, I think one good thread deserves another. So here is a short list of bad things that have happened in this quagmire we call the war in Iraq. I say "short" because 90% of these news stories below are from the past month alone. Much of it gets little attention in the media. Feel free to add any other links you may know of regarding the NEGATIVE things happening in Iraq. --------- Ex-U.S. Marine: I Killed Civilians in Iraq Inside Fallujah: An Independent Journalist Returns To US After Being Captured by the Iraqi Resistance A Letter to the President: "Mr. Bush, You'd Have Liked My Brother" Parents of U.S. Soldier Killed In Iraq: "My Son Was Betrayed By the Bush Administration" Iraqis Liken U.S. Occupation to Saddam Hussein Regime Iraqi Imam Imprisoned and Tortured Under Ba'ath Regime Blasts U.S. Abuse of Prisoners Doctor Who Treated Thousands of GIs Wounded in Iraq: "Severest Form of Injuries I've Seen in My Career" U.S. Assassinates Two Shiite Clerics Organizing Nonviolent Resistance Stadium of Death: Fallujah Residents Bury Their Dead In Aftermath of Bloody U.S. Siege Dems Ignore Negroponte's Death Squad Past, Look to Confirm Iraq Appointment Death Squad Ambassador: Senate Hearings Begin on Negroponte Iraq Appointment Is War Against Iraq Legal Or Not? a Debate Between Roger Normand and Ruth Wedgewood -- Hint: No Robert Fisk on Wesley Clark & Iraq: “What is Happening Is An Absolute Slaughter Every Night of Iraqi People” “The Crazies Are Back”: Bush Sr.’s CIA Briefer Discusses How Wolfowitz & Allies Falsely Led the U.S. To War Tariq Ali vs. Christopher Hitchens on the Occupation of Iraq: Postponed Liberation or Recolonisation? 82 percent of Iraqis oppose U.S. occupation Key findings: Nationwide survey of 3,500 Iraqis Pictures of Destruction and Civilian Victims of the Anglo-American Aggression in Iraq Iraq Body Count Bush administration is seeking from the Security Council the legal authority to continue the occupation indefinitely Ex-Rumsfeld Aide Admits Occupation of Iraq a Failure Abuse of Captives More Widespread, Says Army Survey Pro-War Think Tank Warns: Far Worse May Follow Iraqis Accuse U.S. Troops of Theft in House Raids Iraq's Interim Governing Council Dismayed Over Draft UN Resolution Leaked Memo Reveals Fear That US Tactics Are Endangering Troops Continuing the Cover-Up? Military Takes Action Against Key Witness in Abu Ghraib Abuse Scandal 'US Soldiers Started to Shoot Us, One by One' Officials Say Rumsfeld OKd Harsh Interrogation Methods Rights Groups Oppose U.S. Bid for Exemption from War Crimes Tribunal U.S. Wants Another UN Exemption from Criminal Court Iraqis Say Justice Was Not Done Shocking Details on Abuse of Reuters Staffers in Iraq US Sees No Date For Exit, Aide Says Fewer Than 25,000 Iraqis Working on Reconstruction Funded by U.S. US Troops Disgruntled Over Extended Stay in Iraq White House Released Claims of Defector Deemed Unreliable by CIA Report: White House Memo Backed Abuse How a secret Pentagon program came to Abu Ghraib US Risks Fury of Shia as Imam Ali's Shrine is Hit Sunnis and Shias Uniting Against U.S. Berg Died for Bush, Rumsfeld 'Sins' - Father 70% to 90% of Iraq Prisoners 'Arrested by Mistake' Iraq-Vietnam Parallels Pile Up Iraqis Report Deepening Doubts About Legitimacy of the US-led Occupation Some Generals Fear Iraq War Becoming Unwinnable Despite Superior Firepower War Tab Swamps Bush’s Estimate A Soldier's Story: Accused Abuser Recounts Prison Life Iraqi Tells How He Was Stripped, Beaten and Sexually Abused by US Military Iraq Prisoner Abuses Widespread, Rights Groups Say Widow of Maine Soldier Urges Americans to Question Policy Editor-In-Chief of US-Funded Iraqi Newspaper Quits, Complaining of American Control Wife: Soldiers in Iraqi Abuse Case Are Scapegoats Soldiers' Story Shifts From Pride to Shame

05-26-2004, 09:29 PM	#5 (permalink)
Scipio Mencken Location: College	Well, it's the only defense against the spread. (/cx debate reference) __________________ "Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

05-27-2004, 10:19 AM	#11 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	I heard the US forces were eating the puppies and burning the ice cream. At least according to MoveOn. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

05-27-2004, 02:36 PM	#17 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	It was a 3 part response to your initial post "Ad Hom, the lazy debaters tool for success", listed in order of relevance / intent: Part A: What comes around goes around. Part B: Being that there was no debate initiated, unlike "good things happening in Iraq", where the poster had at least two paragraphs on why he posted/what he thought, i couldn't possibly have employed any sort of successfull debate tactic for lazy people. Part C: This part was unrelated to the thread so it wasn't expounded on, and initiated by the the recognition of the previous comment that you are almost certainly a college student, and almost certainly liberal (right?) reminded me of my days in college when liberalism was shoved down my throat, and the irony that you guys get so upset with AM radio and Fox news. And in case you were wondering that light-hearted little jab came in, I tried to tie it all together with my last sentence "Was there anything to debate? Talk about lazy....", letting you know precisely where that came from. In a nutshell, it was essentially a T answer binding together each of the DA links ( i thought you would be impressed, thereby making up for my previous post) Last edited by matthew330; 05-27-2004 at 02:38 PM..

05-27-2004, 09:10 PM	#20 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	It is a true pity, that we come to this as a community. Perhaps you should all look at the posts you have placed for us all to see.Do you really want to be represented by what you have written here, and if so, Why? You seem a bit off course to me....maybe a return to the topic would help. There is bad news in Iraq. There is good news in Iraq. There is a war in Iraq. And there will be for quite some time. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

05-26-2004, 08:42 PM	#3 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	Arbitrarily picked one of your links to click, came up with "The number of U.S. troops killed in Iraq stands close to 300"....last 90 days, eh? Quite a riveting "favorites" collection you got there.

05-27-2004, 06:36 AM	#9 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	"Then again, I pulled dirty, dirty tricks as a debater. Think Irony cases that skirt topicality with a 30 point T = no voter block, with a critique of T saying T is a form of oppression and a few hiddin RVI's and IVI's in that block. Using T answers to bind people to DA links was also a favorite evil play of mine." Mommy!! Mommy!! Look what i learned in school today. You have college's, we have talk radio. Was there anything to debate? Talk about lazy, he posted what 40 links from two sources - why not just post the two websites.

05-27-2004, 09:30 AM	#10 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Did you guys know that iraq has puppies and ice cream, and if so, how can you continue to claim anything bad there is going on in light of this knowledge?

05-27-2004, 10:24 AM	#12 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	They're like totally flipping out and wailing on their guitars and killing people and not even caring about it.

05-27-2004, 11:50 AM	#14 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	...and you'll go far with that - congratulations.