matthew330

http://www.cnsnews.com/Culture/archi...20040317b.html

Huh? - If this isn't hypocrisy at it's finest......

The whole Dr. Laura thing really frustrated me when it happened. Nothing she said was discriminatory, from my perspective it was completely logical reasoning. If the homosexual community insists (which im not denying) that their orientation is not a choice but rather rooted in their biological makup, in every sense it is completely reasonable to suggest that homosexuality would then be "a biological error" if one looks at it from a Darwinian perspective. GLAAD eventually got her kicked off the air.

Far cry from calling referring to homosexuals as "faggots" and "i dont' want to be around them", and GLAADS response being ""We applaud his honesty in talking about the murder of his bisexual mother and appreciate his acknowledgement that he is not comfortable with gay people. We know that confronting homophobia can indeed be uncomfortable,"

Superbelt

Laura: over 6 years of publicly railing against the gay community
regularly uses the words 'deviant,' 'disordered' and 'biological error'

50cent: 6 months in the spotlight. "I ain't into faggots," "I don't like gay people around me, because I'm not comfortable with what their thoughts are. I'm not prejudiced. I just don't go with gay people and kick it - we don't have that much in common."

There is a difference. Laura used her pulpit specifically to defame gay people. She uses strong words that state she believes they shouldn't even exist. 50cent just has a negative view of homosexuals. He is ok with their existance, he just doesn't want to know them.

Both have very bad views about gays, but 50 doesn't go out of his way to tear them down. And he is new so it is more helpful to first try and reach-out to someone before you condemn them.

FoolThemAll

I don't think "Homosexuality is a biological error" or "Homosexual acts are evil" equals defamation. It's not slander, it's value judgement. And homosexuality is deviant, that's fact. Whether this particular deviance is a bad thing is a separate question.

I agree that there's a big difference between the words of 50 Cent and the words of Dr. Laura, however. I can see how GLAAD saw opportunity in the one case and just threat in the other.

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shakran

Oh bull. The appendix is probably a biological error but no one gets persecuted for it. Homosexuality, if indeed it IS biological, IS a biological error. Homosexuality detracts from the survival of the species because the survival of the species depends upon procreation. It IS deviant because deviant is defined as being different from the majority.

Where people screw up is when they say that this biological error means that the person is bad/morally corrupt, etc. A siamese twin is deviant and is a biological error, but no one runs around saying they should be persecuted.

The truth is that words such as "biological error" and "deviance" have been assigned a negative connotation where none actually exists.

Now, I'm sure I'm about to get flamed left and right for saying that homosexuality is a biological error, but anyone that does so is frankly displaying their ignorance as to what "biological error" actually means.

lordjeebus

From an evolutionary standpoint you're probably right.

But here's an idea I've been kicking around.

For most species total population goes in a cycle. When it gets too high, resources deplete, and the population decreases to a point where they can be restored. Think predator-prey model.

If population gets too high too fast, the restoring element will force the species into extinction instead of low population. Hence the logic of "thinning out the numbers" of some overpopulated species.

From this standpoint having a certain percentage of a species be homosexual would prevent population from getting too high. The rate of homosexuality in a given species could even be evolved to match their vulnerability to overpopulation.

For all we know (because I don't think you could prove it), homosexuality could be not error but biologically evolved for the survival of the species as a whole.

EDIT:

Another idea.

Consider ants. The vast majority of individuals in that species are unable to reproduce, yet to label that "biological error" ignores the way the species as a whole has evolved to survive.

The problem then with labeling homosexuality as "biological error" is that although it does reduce the evolutionary fitness of an individual, it could still benefit the species, which is the true measure of what is "biological error." Perhaps having less offspring in a species allows its members to invest more in them, enhancing their survival.

In the end, the issue is that we cannot prove what exact features and events have led species to survive in the past, and hence it is difficult to establish with certainty what is an error for that species. In addition what is an error now could provide an advantage for a species in the future as environmental conditions change.

stevie667

the problem with homosexuality and debates is that it's one of those things that until we can say 'it stems from this' then we're just going to have debate after debate after debate.

personally, i think that it's a creation from the elastic brain model of a child, not an inborn genetic code (because at least someone would have found some kind of relation with all the studies know if it was, jeez ), but i do accept the fact that there probably is some kind of hormonal factors that may go askew in a brain that would cause the effects of gender transference.
now, someone is going to disagree with this view, and that will prove exactly my point, unless we have a difinitive answer, it's just gona be one of those things people argue about.

but, my motto, if it makes you happy, go for it.

Superbelt

Actually there is.
There is a certain part of the brain that is an abnormal size in homosexuals when compared against a heterosexuals.

lurkette

It's one thing to describe homosexuality as a "biological error" in a purely descriptive, scientific context. It's completely another to use that as ammunition for castigating an entire population and denying them basic rights.

There's a difference in context between the comments made by "Dr." Laura and 50Cent:

Dr. Laura is parading as some kind of authority (which is arguable, depsite the Ph.D. behind her name) and her words therefore carry a greater weight - they're more likely to be taken as true. Her criticism of homosexuality was not limited to the few phrases that are being bandied about here. Those phrases were part of a much larger pattern of vitriolic and religious-based (NOT science-based) gay-bashing that was frankly much more insidious than what 50cent said.

50cent is a rapper. Sure, his words reach a lot of people and he should probably consider the impact of them, but he's speaking as an individual - not as a medical authority - and his opinions are likely to be seen as just opinions. And as others have pointed out, he makes a distinction between "wrongness" and his preference not to be around people who are gay. There's a difference between being personally uncomfortable around a certain kind of person, and insisting that their identity is invalid, wrong, etc., because you don't happen to like it.

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stevie667

in all, or just some, and is it present from birth, or developing from a certain age/experience?
another problem with biology, everything needs a fricking context

seretogis

Politics, politics, politics. If Dr. Laura or Rush Limbaugh or Dennis Miller referred to gays as "faggots" they would be screaming bloody murder. It's all nonsense.

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Kadath

Well, there's also the fact that 50 cent is a moron. Look at the way he expresses himself. "I ain't into faggots." Hey, way to be, champ.

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smooth

How is this politics? I can only imagine you come to that conclusion by lumping 50 cent into some liberal category, and that GLAAD is aligned with his liberal interests! Boogeyman

lurkette, well said. I wanted to post something similar but didn't see much point in it.

Superbelt

Quite a non-sequiter.

Despite everything they have been through in their history, African Americans are among the most socially conservative demographics in america.

seretogis, This is definetley not a liberal/conservative thing here between 50, Laura, Rush or Dennis.

filtherton

I agree with lurkette. Fittycent is just a dumb rapper in an ocean of dumb rappers. Dr. laura is a shrill, hypocritical, selectively biased husk of pretend moral authority. Fitty is an entertainer while laura pretends to have the authority to tell people how they should live.


That's all beside the point though. I think we're all missing out on the real issue here: Fitty cent has been shot several times. HELLOOOOOO?!?!?! Maybe when dr. laura takes six bullets she could complain about unfair treatment. Until then, she ain't got no cred with me.

matthew330

Specifically what basic rights is she attempting to deny homosexuals. It's no big secret that Dr. Laura's politics are fundamentally rooted in the importance of the nuclear family (is that the right word - been a long time since i was in school, ya know, mother father children).

I guess i can therefore understand why homosexuals saw her as a threat, because (and what more appropriate time to bring this up), any ligitimate argument for the benefits of this type of family would be in direct opposition gay marriage. I'm going out on a limb here but i'm sure most of you have heard the story about the 6 year old bringing home a book from school about the two gay princes who marry and kiss at the end, and I'm sure Dr. Laura probably wouldn't agree with that either - not sure that's a basic right of that community.

All i'm saying is i used to have an hour commute to work for about two years, and getting bored of the FM, i switched to AM and listened to her every day for two years. I've heard her describe her thoughts on homosexuality and NEVER was she denying them basic rights. Her thoughts, as said before, were rooted in defense of the nuclear family.

She's probalby more or a threat because she makes a point, a point you may not agree with, but a thoughtfull point that didn't deserve to get her kicked off the air.

I'd still like to see a direct quote where she denyed anyone their basic rights. If 50 cent would have been shot once MAYBE, MAYBE!!, i would concede he was "mistreated." That dudes been shot 9 frickin times, he's proud of every one........he's nothing but worthless homophobic idiot - but i'm not gonna deny him his right to rap whatever he raps, just won't be buying any of his albums for my nephews anytime soon.

...and i was really curious how these actions would have been defended by the left. I can't really say i'm surprised but the whole "as long as blantent bigotry is the result of complete ignorance, it's nothing to shake a stick at, it's an opportunity" is a bit ironic.

And i respectfully request that no one take any cheap shots at my saying in the previous post ".....it's been awhile since i've been in school."

matthew330

screwed up with the posting, sorry

matthew330

one final thought

consider the audience of the two lurkette. Young impressionable kids are generally not entertained by Dr. Laura. 50 cent's audience (i.e. - young, impressionable kids) generally don't view their idols as simply entertainers. "Dr." Laura is a PHD, and deserves the title.

shakran

Very interesting hypothesis. I thought about it and I'm not convinced. First off, there are lots of population checks set up in nature. If a population gets too big, predators have an easier time eating members of it, and the population goes down, for instance. Second, several species of monkeys/apes have shown homosexual behavior despite the fact that they're severely endangered.



I also have a problem with the idea that we should look the other way when 50-cent makes his obviously derogatory comments because "he's one guy" or "he's a moron" and we should crucify Dr. Laura for stating her beliefs in a non-derogatory manner. Just because 50-cent is an idiot doesn't mean that he is not responsible for his words.

Furthermore, have you guys ever actually heard Dr. Laura speak? Hell, if all she says about homosexuals is that they're deviant and a biological error, she's being downright benign. She's made a career out of insulting and berating her callers into doing "the right thing." I don't see the problem here. She stated her opinion, which was based in much more logic than "I don't like faggots just because" and people destroyed her. That's ridiculous.

yatzr

it is all politics. maybe not liberal/conservative but definately politics. they don't care about what 50 cent says because VOTERS don't listen to him. They care about what Dr. Laura says because many voters do listen to her. All GLAAD cares about is gaining more rights for the gay community and they go after any opposition that has some say for voters (even if the opposition is simply defending heterosexuality). That's what all organizations like this are like. They don't care about the individuals, they just care about getting their shit passed.

superbelt - can you find some information on the part of the brain thing. I've never heard of it and it would be interesting to learn more about.

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Superbelt

Gladly.
I searched on "homosexual brain"

The section of the brain is called the anterior hypothalamus (AH) A specific neuron group in it called INAH-3 was studied.

Source 1 University of Chicago

Source 2 Boston.com, Health and Fitness

Source 3 New York University

The gist is, brains were disected. They had gay, straight male, straight female brains. The gay (AH) is half the size as a straight mans. The gay mans (AH) is about the same size as a straight females.

As a disclaimer, it has to be at least considered that the AIDS that all these gay men had could have transformed their brain structure.

shakran

But what does that prove? After all, musicians have a part of the brain that's larger than normal too.

supersix2

It doesn't prove anything yet. It could be evidence that a part of the brain is resposible for sexuality and sexual identity. A change from the normal in that part of the brain could lead to a change in sexuality. Infact shakran you made the point in your very short one lined response.
Each person has thier own unique characteristics and obviously the brain controls that. So naturally in each person parts of the brain are going to be different sizes depending upon what characteristces they have. Its been determined that artistic and creative people are more dominate on one side of the brain (not sure which) and less dominate on the other. The inverse of this is that people who are better in math and more technical things have the dominance of the other side of the brain. The dominant side is bigger.

Anyway, my thoughts on this whole issue.
I am really sick of the double standards in today's society. 50 cents words are way more harmful than Dr. Laura's but neither of them should be punished for what they say. This is America, they have thier views and opinions. They can state thier opinions whenever they want. I find it hilarious that political groups both conservative and liberal only support free speech when it is convient for them and views them only in a positive light.
So 50 cent and Dr. Laura don't like gays big deal a lot of people in this world don't like gays. As a result they are going to say negative things about them. If I don't like something I'm going to say bad things about it. It is my right to do so. If they are hurting your feelings you don't have to listen/watch. If gay people didn't like Dr. Laura's show they don't have to watch it. It gays didn't like reading what 50 cent said don't read it. (Why would they anyway its in Playboy). Some asshole in the media caught wind of what 50 cent said in Playboy and all of a sudden decided it was news to create a media feeding frenzy on gay rights. I mean its a good idea for ratings there is already a huge debate about gay marriage. Making someone look like a homophobe especially a famous and popular rapper is good television. Obviously someone wanted to see 50 cent go down but honestly no body really cares. As a result it hasn't been in the news anymore. Seriously there are much more important things that could be on the news rather than what someone said in a magazine interview. If it hadn't been in the news I highly doubt that the people 50 cent targetted would have even known what he said.
And to those of you who said that its OK for 50 to say that because he's a dumb rapper and not OK for Dr. Laura because she's a doctor and should know better you people need to get real. Since when has ignorance intelligence (or lack there of) became excuses for saying negative things. 50 knew what he was saying. He knew it would be controversial but he said it anyway. Why did he say it then? Because he was being honest and he wanted to make a good interview. Besides I'm sure he's smart enough to know that some controversy is the best thing for someone's popularity. I don't think 50 cent is dumb, he may act dumb but he surely is not. He has an image to keep up so he will do things that support his image. All rappers do this. They live in huge mansions that are way nicer and classier than anything you've ever seen yet they pretend to be from the ghetto. Its the image of the rapper.

smooth

I doubt that was the point people were making with that statement. 50 cent was speaking for himself, and maybe could be interpreted to be representative of the larger rapper population. None of us think rappers are trained in psychology--so while their opinions might be repeated by someone, it will be recognized that it's essentially an ignorant opinion.

Dr. Laura, however, is a member of the medical community. Her opinion carries not only her personal endorsement, but is taken as representative of the larger medical community. While it may be debateable within that larger community, someone repeating her opinion is doing so based on the advice or statement of an expert.

This opinion doesn't incorporate intelligence level or who should know what better over whom. Rather, it's a recognition that a trained expert's statement carries more weight in terms of policy and public opinion than a street thug who sings. You can argue all you want about children and young adults paying more attention to a rapper than a psychologist, but they aren't the ones setting public discourse and policy.

Sparhawk

This bugs me about "Dr" Laura - she isn't actually a medical doctor. She has a PhD in Physiology. Now, I know a couple dozen PhD's, and (outside a college setting) only the two major league assholes among them insist on being called Dr by their associates/subordinates.

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filtherton

Its kind of like the difference between fitty saying, "Iraq has wmds" and donald rumsfeld saying, "Iraq has wmds". Who holds more sway on the matter in your mind? Some rapper vs. someone who is in a postition to actually have some kind of idea what he is talking about?

shakran

Bad analogy. Closer would be Rumsfeld lying and saying "Iraq has WMD's" vs. 50-cent saying "Iraq is full of fucking towelhead camel-jockies."


Dr. Laura said homosexuals are deviant. i.e. different. 50-cent called them faggots. I truly hope you can see which is worse.

Sheesh.

shakran

Oh, and btw she has her BS in biology, her MS and PhD in physiology, and has been on university faculties of biology and psychology. I'd say that list qualifies her to talk about biological errors a lot more than "duh, i be uh rappa" qualifies 50-cent to say anything whatsoever about homosexuals.

filtherton

Difference of opinion. I hope you can see that.
(the emoticon version of sheesh)


BTW, there is a difference between speaking about homosexuality as a biological issue and homosexuality as a social issue. There's a difference between pointing out that homosexuality is the result of deviance(btw so is a successful heterosexual marriage) and calling the gay rights movement mccarthyist. There is a difference between pointing out an observation based on principals of evolution and proclaiming that homosexuals are more prone to pedophilia than heterosexuals. She might have angered some people with her statements connecting homosexual rights wil the rights of pedophiles and beastiaphiles. Or when she cited as "largely responsible for that guy's(matthew shepard) death" his willingness to leave a bar with two strangers for sex. It wasn't the homophobia of the perpetrators nor the cold-bloodedness that leaving someone tied to a fence to die requires. Nope. His death was largely due to his desire to have a one night stand.
If you want to read more
http://www.stopdrlaura.com/laura/
Check that out and tell me if you can see a difference between fifty cent and dr. laura. shzeesh.

Here's one difference to get you started though. Fittycent doesn't hide his bigotry behind a piece of paper.

Thagrastay

Dr Laura addresses the behavioral aspect of the homosexual quandry and speaks to the state of the ability to change or cease the deviant proclivities.
The analogies are much the same as they are when it comes to Alcoholism:
The Alcoholic is standing on a bridge over a stream with his pants on fire asking himself: "This fire- is it genetic or environmental?"

The problem lies, IMO, in that the homosexual community as a political animal, does not want to change it's behavior because it has found:

A. No reason to
B. Every reason not to
C. Political and social empowerment through media and
other of-type sources
D. It is able to disrupt the Status Quo
E. As a minority, it's lobby is extremely powerful

IMHO, the Homosexual Lobby will tolerate FiftyCents because they will be able, somehow to exploit him eventually and turn him to their advantage. This will, of course, IMHO< result in a media coup to impressionable teens, and show that even hardcore "Homophobes" are wrong in their opinions, and will learn the rightness of the "Truth".
IMO, this whole issue is about propoganda and nothing more. Note who this is aimed at and the difference in the treatment of the celebrities.

Also- the population theory that lordjeebus came up with is fine and all, if in fact there were a real population problem. But once again, that's propaganda. Do the math. You can take every living person on the face of the planet and put them in Oregon and the remainder of the World will be empty of people. The US alone produces more than enough food to feed the entire planet and we throw away more food every day than the whole plane t eats.
Homosexuals are mot mutants, IMHO, put here to help us in our "Population crisis".
I have no idea what makes a homosexual a homosexual and I don't think I want my tax money spent on trying to find out, either.
IMHO they have every single right I have already, and since they are not another gender or race, it is unfair to demand more rights. Privileges are another thing altogether, though. I'm certainly up for discussion on that.

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seretogis

Politics isn't always about liberal or conservative.

In this case, 50 cent said something much more offensive than Dr. Laura, but he is getting a free pass simply because he is not a political target GLAAD and Dr. Laura is. It's also interesting that Eminem was blasted for being homophobic and 50 cent was not.

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perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
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smooth

I guess I misread your intent when you included two conservative icons as targets of who would feel the brunt of such "politics" if they had said what 50 cent did.