Ustwo

I thought I'd be immune to what drives the tilted right from this board, but I guess I'm not.

It's not fun anymore, its not even neutral.

One of my best friends and most brilliant men I know is a socialist. What’s nice with him is that we agree on the facts and issues up to the point of solution, where he goes left and I go right. I love debating with him, because he has intellectual honesty and a knowledge of history comparable to my own. We disagree here and there about some facts, but they are always at least debatable ones. I owe him a lot in my life as our research together was a big part of my success.

I'd hoped I'd find that sort of debate here, something where I could see the other sides point of view and understand why they have it.

I haven't.

What I've found is seething with hatred, often illogical complaints, and selective history, from all but a handful. Its like having a debate with a religious fanatic (the irony), and all you can do is try to smile and turn away.

This isn't meant to be melodramatic, just disappointment. Maybe things will change here and maybe not. I can’t try to change it at this point, I’m to jaded. It really doesn't matter as all of us really mean squat in the grand political scheme of things.

Goodbye and catch you on the other boards.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

stevie667

well, i must say that i never back down from a good argument, but a debate is another matter.

pick a topic, we'll break out the port and cigars and make an evening of it.

Bookman

See ya.
You are guilty of adding your bias and opinion on your posts and this adds to the nature of threads you take part in.

Stare At The Sun

I would say that everyone is biased in their own ways. Taking another intellectual away from the board will not help matters however Ustwo. Honestly, not everyone can make the best of points on a forum, and often times, the debates do get rather heated. However, you no longer visiting won't help tilted politics. Rather, it will only hurt the board. You should really consider this before you officially stop coming.

Winner never quit.

Superbelt

I don't like any of your politics, and I don't think I have ever agreed with you.
That said you were valuable here. You not only provided another warm body and player to the conservative line, but you were engaging and I do enjoy plying my ideas and discussing ideas I don't like against you and your "ilk"

It's a shame to see you go.
Still, don't ride off into the sunset feeling superior. You do have your share of bias and ideological blinders as much as anyone else here and you pushed it as hard as you could. If you wanted things to change, you sure as hell didn't help it.

Finally. I gotta say it!
"Don't go! Or the terrorists have won!"

Mojo_PeiPei

What are the crazy hot-headed conservative youths like me going to do with your absence?!?!?!

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

tecoyah

Over the past months, I have grown to truly dislike most of your stances on politics.But, It was very nice to debate with someone who I could actually pretend was GWB and believe it(mind you with a greater intellect than Bush).
You will be missed, albeit....grudgingly.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

WarWagon

I understand your decision to leave, as I do share a similar view to yours. However, I choose to simply stay away from the political discussions and explore the rest of the community. To each his own.

irateplatypus

i'm done for a while also...

i love TFP and discussing issues with all of you guys, but that just isn't what is taking place on this board for now. i've felt myself get hot-headed on a few threads, so that is a signal that i am sometimes no better.

my right-leaning bias is apparent and, admittedly, affects nearly all of my posts. i have no issue with those who choose to lean the other way. the problem lies with people posting poorly researched information and confusing their agenda with facts.

this will be very superior sounding, but it is a pure waste of time to discuss an issue with someone who isn't committed to the same level of intellectual honesty and fact-checking. if i sound like an arrogant blowhard for making that critical observation, then so be it.

i know i'll be back, but i'm certainly taking a break. the weather is too beautiful outside... and i'm told the fish are biting.

i love TFP and i'll do my part and re-evaluate the way i make my persuasive approach... i'm sure i'll see ya around.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

mml

Apparently the "liberal terrorists" have won. Much like Spain pulling out of Iraq, I am sorry to hear you're leaving. Take a break, fill up the conservative gas tank and come roaring back. I always like hearing why I am wrong.

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
-Douglas Adams

Bookman

Respect to you for your decision.
In response, I dont think that while in discussion of most topics..fact-checking validates much of anything.
All credentialed writers are PAID by someone and recently it has become more evident that there is a media code of silence on certain matters of political affairs.

Just because someone has 3 PhDs does not mean what they say is true.

gibingus

fleeing from challenges to the rationality of their point of view is sadly common among today's right. david brock eloquently calls attention to this in his book 'blinded by the right.'

i hoped you would step up with some depth in your posts and provide some of the historical and philosophical background that supports your conservative foundation. it looks like you have it in you, and that is sorely needed here.

but many of your commnents lately have been more rush limbaugh and less william f. buckley. when you constantly dish one liners bashing "whining liberals", quote opinion pieces penned by conservative pundits on the heritage foundation and aei payrolls as news, and champion the administration's policy without justifying it with supporting reason, you're pretty much guilty of representing what you complain about:

"What I've found is seething with hatred, often illogical complaints, and selective history, from all but a handful. Its like having a debate with a religious fanatic (the irony), and all you can do is try to smile and turn away."

there is nothing wrong with the conservative point of view. the big problem is that most conservatives don't comprehend the foundation of their philosophy beyond talk radio's thin veneer of hate. we need both points of view to balance our nation, perhaps less of 'social darwinism' and more of charles atlas' 'dynamic tension.' the conflict and tension between the two camps makes us stronger as a whole. i hope you will come back and lead by example.

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if everyone is thinking alike, chances are no one is thinking.

matthew330

There was nothing in UsTwo's original post that suggested that was his attitude. Superbelt, perhaps this mentality should have been directed to both sides of the fence (i.e. - gingibus).

Though i don't participate nearly as much as UsTwo, it is a direct result of my first experience on a political topic (though it was in the philosophy board addressing abortion), that keeps me from doing so.

It is next to impossible keeping a discussion on track when you are the sole conservative (with perhaps one or two exceptions) arguing with 20+ liberals. By nature your posts would have to be 50 times as long to address everything, not addressing everything is construed as "cherrypicking." In other words, thoughtfull posts are 90% ignored and the other 10% attacked by 20 different people. It's not a coincidence the posts from the conservatives have progressed to 1-2 lines. Too much effort.

Gingibus, that is a completely ridiculous claim, and in the spirit of Sparhawk, try not to watch UsTwo riding off into the sunset feeling "superior."

filtherton

It would be really ironic if ustwo's farewell thread became a liberal vs conservative flame thread.

It'd be par for the course too.

Superbelt

I won't bother explaining, matthew. It's evident to most the air of superiority he conveys with that post.
He isn't guilty of any of that. Us libs drag his discussions down, right. It couldn't have anything to do with him approaching this board as if he were Rush Limbaugh himself.


But anyway, why do I keep getting mistaken with Sparhawk?

gibingus

matthew, i think you're missing my point and also characterizing my views incorrectly.... or else i am not understanding what you are referring to as a "completely riduculous claim."

i sincerely hoped that ustwo (or anyone else) would offer sound reperesentation of what is currently viewed as the conservative republican ideology beyond the simple party dogma and the "liberals are whiners and whimps who raise taxes" cliches. i myself tried to provide opportunities for that, and was sadly disappointed when every challenge was ducked and - in the end - no substance was revealed.

smart conservative politics have no need to resort to that. the ideology is strong and it is a needed balance to the liberal ideology in order to keep the country on an even keel. as one who respects and values the conservative viewpoint, i am very disapointed in the present administration, which i feel represents only the oligarchy and has hijacked our democratic republic. it does not represent what i feel are the core components of conservativism.

now, i also respect and acknowledge the value of the liberal viewpoint. i suppose that must put me on the other side of the fence, as you say, since in this day and age, you are "either with us or against us." any type of challenge or dissent is instantly rebuffed and marginalized as unpatriotic, socialist, communist, etc.

filtherton, i started a liberal /conservative thread where i hoped these terms could be defined so we could find out why there is divisiveness. matthew, if you click into it, you will see exactly the type of behavior i was referring to in my post above.

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if everyone is thinking alike, chances are no one is thinking.

matthew330

just for clarification purposes, specifically
"fleeing from challenges to the rationality of their point of view is sadly common among today's right. david brock eloquently calls attention to this in his book 'blinded by the right.' "

and....

"the big problem is that most conservatives don't comprehend the foundation of their philosophy beyond talk radio's thin veneer of hate."

Sparhawk

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

fuzyfuzer

something that i notice a lot of is the derogatory remarks made all over the place just to get them in there they come from bith sides there are just more liberals here so you see more from there point of view it gets really anoying really fast

__________________
"The difference between commiment and involvment is like a ham and egg breakfast the chicken was involved but the pig was commited"

"Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

filtherton

Come to think of it, i've never actually seen the both of you together. It's seems like whenever one of you leaves to go to the bathroom the other one mysteriously appears for a while.

hmmm. sumpthin's fishy!!!

filtherton

Ustwo, do you treat your brilliant socialist friend to your wonderful sarcasmic abilities? Do you imply that he supports saddam or "the terrorists" or the murder of innocent civilians? Do you take the time with him to offer up the random, often irrelevant, offhand comment to imply that you think he is a confused child? Do you compare him to stalin? Do you write off what he says as merely the result of blind adherence to liberal dogma? I have a feeling that you may treat him with a little bit more respect than you seem to treat the tilted left.

You reap what you sow.

pan6467

All I can say is when I have tried to debate USTWO and Irate they ignore me. They say noone has facts and that the left is too biased?

Yet when someone did come forth with facts such as Teddy Roosevelt would be considered a Liberal today based on his ideals.

The fact that the right is wanting the government to basically censor the radio and tv yet claim to want less government.

The fact that G Gordon Liddy can say he named targets after a sitting president and his wife and nothing was done yet Howard Stern talks of sex and a tit is shown on tv and they demand justice.

Those were things I brought up and yet the right ignored them.

I offered a debate type thread to Irate and after claiming he would do it, he backed out never to reply.

So let the quitters quit they only want to debate what and when they think they can win. When someone has facts and calls them on their shit they run and hide and claim people are misinterpretting facts, being biased or being too hateful. But it is ok for them to say anything they want with no proof or going by right winged hate spewing radio hosts.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Sparhawk

*Puts on his Tinfoil Lock-out Hat...

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Ustwo

Just a clarification for everyone who has PMed me. I'm not leaving TFP just taking a long break from the politics board.

Oh and pan you are a perfect example.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...147#post996147
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...35#post1009735

I answered someone else who thought the Teddy was a 'liberal' a while back. The man tried to volunteer for combat duty in WWI and still supported the war after the death of his son behind enemy lines. He died a year later. He was for a fair deal to workers AND to business. He is as far from a current liberal as I am. I said this already, I'm sorry you missed it.

This may astound you, but there is only so much time in the day and so much desire to post.

Bah why bother......

See you in other places, and if you have any orthodontic questions drop me a note on the health board.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

gibingus

have you read the book? if not, then how can you claim it is ridiculous? he paints the group think and peer pressure chillingly. if you have, bravo. i know few conservatives who are secure enough to face something like that with an open mind. most just dismiss it as turncoat crap.

as to your second quote, i always enjoy meeting individuals who are in that minority. the discussions are so much more pleasant once the static is tuned out.

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if everyone is thinking alike, chances are no one is thinking.

pan6467

One you can be liberal AND patriotic willing to serve the military. I am proof of that.

I can name the bills that Teddy wrote that would be considered liberal now. I can point to the fact that he was a "progressive" which at the time meant socially liberal. I can name books, articles and as I said bills he introduced. Militarily he wasn't a warhawk he was more of an isolationist.

As for the first post you pointed to as me being hateful, it was a rebuttal to your article attacking 2 WAR HEROES that just happened to be on the wrong side of the political fence as you. ( http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...147#post996147 )

But I can see how my questioning of the GOP's supposed love for those who serve does not apply to those who are of a different political ideology. Or that they can't face up to the fact they are closing Veteran's hospitals and denying legitimate in the contract benefits to veterans. The GOP doesn't want to face those substantiated FACTS and claim those are attacks. How did Limbaugh, Hannity, and O'Reilly or even Bush for that matter serve in VietNam? Yet they want to disgrace 2 medal honored veterans who went to VietNam when they chose not to? Seems to me they are trying to create problems of which they know nothing about having not been there and dodging the draft or taking ways out that are far less honorable than anything those 2 did while over there.

The second was to point out, how truly twofaced the GOP are. They are acting like VietNam was some great war and that the war we are in is some great project. YET, as I pointed out Bush has to change the reason every 4 months. That's the BIG LIE, because Bush will never come clean with the truth as to why we are in Iraq. We have 1000's of men laying their lives on the line 24/7 while Bush sits secure and he can't even do the honorable thing and tell the truth as to why we are there. Those men and women are to serve blindly, for what reason?
( http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...35#post1009735 )

AND BY THE WAY THE THREAD BELOW THE ONE YOU POINT OUT STATED THAT I WROTE THAT IN SOME JEST WHILE TRYING TO GET A POINT ACROSS.

So don't sit all pious on me. Those posts came with facts, iron clad facts that cannot, (well with Bush's administration they can spin anything), be disputed.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

By the way one last fact I'm sure you'll say was attacking you....

According to Limbaugh and other GOP talking heads, there are no such things as cuts to domestic programs when congress still gives more but not to the rate of need to the program. That is FACT.

So why then do those people continue to cry that Clinton cut the military to death? He spent more every fiscal year on it. According to Limbaugh that's not a cut, so why is everyone saying he cut military spending?

Finally, as having served under Bush the 1st, I can tell you he was cutting 70,000 jobs in the Navy and Marines before the 1st Gulf War. I know that for a fact because I was one of them. They asked me if I was reenlisting, I said no, they asked if I would take an early out to save someone their retirement. That is FACT. So it wasn't just Clinton.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Nizzle

Utswo, you should look in the mirror. You are guilty of everything you claim bothers you so much. If you would like, I could dredge up quotes where you claim liberals are all smelly hippies, etc., but I don't see the point.

Your "farewell" speech was very well written, and I feel the same way. It is why I don't bother to peruse this board very often. But I suggest you go back and read what you have posted and try to realize you are part of the problem.

Good day.

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Nizzle

Lebell

The truth is, I can only think of very few people in "Politics" who have not fallen into the traps Ustwo has described (and no, I'm not one of them.)

Let's be honest with ourselves.

Who posting here hasn't gone overboard and let their temper get the best of them when posting?

Who hasn't fallen back into an "us vs. them" mindset and used the tired old cliches that come from our backgrounds?

Who hasn't brushed aside well argued positions coupled with good data simply because it didn't support our position?

And finally, who here doesn't believe they are really right and the other guy is just wrong?


So I don't think Ustwo is innocent, nor do I think anyone who has posted here so far is innocent.

In someways, I really do agree with the poster (Smooth, I think it was) who likened "Tilted Politics" to mental masturbation, because I don't know of anyone who comes in here to change their views, but instead, to change someone elses'.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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sprocket

Right on! I have only been partrolling the politics section of tilted for the past week or so, but from everything I've seen lebell just hit the nail on the head.

When someone gets upset or clearly posts a flamebait message you just have to take it with a grain of salt. There are real emotions involved in all these issues here that can get the best of anybody sometimes. Compared to most polotics internet discussions, the people of TFP keep a pretty level head (even if its not always rational ).

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Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

ARTelevision

Agreed. Like probably every other politics board out there, this one is dysfunctional. Perhaps it's less so than most. Perhaps not.
In any event, it's not terribly satisfying posting here for anyone it seems - except for those who are infatuated with the sound of their own typing.

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create evolution

Kadath

Lurkette, I think. Intellectual masturbation.

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it's quiet in here

filtherton

I think that speaks about where politics, in general, are today. It really isn't about developing an effective philosophy for change or problem solving. Its about yelling as loud as you can to get your point across. And then yelling some more so that you reach those who are indifferent. Arguing politics on the internet is pointless, just like arguing politics on bill o'reilly is pointless. It is entertainment where you get to assert moral superiority. Masturbation indeed. Anyone who was actually concerned with politics would be out doing activism, not having pointless arguments on the internet.

gibingus

i dunno, this may be the case for the majority, but i have been impressed by posters who do seem to change their minds and concede points when good points are made. truly, that is the most impressive character trait that anyone can have - the willingness to accept ideas outside their own. i love the tfp community because of the seemingly higher number of people like that here.

true arrogance is believing that you are right all the time and know more or better than anyone else. i liken it to when my wife asked me if she was the woman of my dreams, and i told her that i thanked god she wasn't - since my dreams could never have conceived of someone as wonderful as she is. or as shakespeare said, "more things in heaven and earth than in your philosophy, horatio..."

in the frame of this discussion about conservatives/right wingers not finding the tfp politics forum a "fun" place, perhaps it is appropriate to say that conservativism is welcome here, but this community will always challenge narrow-mindedness and intolerance.

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if everyone is thinking alike, chances are no one is thinking.

pan6467

Arguing, yes. Truly debating, no.

There are times when I have read a fact filled thread that was written showing respect to my ideology, but pointing out the problems to a certain issue. In doind so, the right made me rethink my stance and forced me to reevaluate and learn more about it.

(And there are times when those conservatives have crucified me and I them for no reason other than we have differing views.)

That's all debates are supposed to do, get you to think and evaluate why you believe a certain way.

The problem is that we hold our beliefs so tightly that we become defensive when pushed as to why we believe what we do. Much like religious people, we only have the facts we choose to have and believe. BUT, the greatest thing about true respectful debate is the exchanging of facts and ideals to where both sides can feel respected and both sides question thier blind beliefs enough to where they need to do research on an issue.

It is far easier to say this and know this than it is to practice it. For noone likes to have their beliefs challenged and even the smallest slight can lead to turning a debate into war. For it gives someone an out and they no longer have to worry about looking within.

For USTWO and Irate I would have loved to truly hear their side to the items I listed above. I would love to hear why what Liddy said was ok but Stern needs to be censored and taken off. Among the other things listed.

Admittedly I am passionate on my views as are most who want change. That passion can turn a sincere answer into something it was not meant to be, simply by the way it was read or typed or presented.

In the end, we all live, and we all die, and in between we try to get by the best we can.

As Ray Davies has said "we are all God's children and we are all the same to Him, stripped of our clothes and all the things we own."

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Stare At The Sun

I think we all have the ability to debate quite well. Consider my Hitler thread. That could have turned ugly very fast. All things considered, i think we can do better. We just have to keep level heads, and be civil.

onetime2

Unfortunately there is a large segment of tf politics which believe any post by a "conservative" is narrow minded and intolerant. I have been called many names in the course of posting here including but not limited to "liar" and "racist".

Few members here "welcome" conservative viewpoints. Sometimes it seems they are only tolerated so that certain members will have whipping posts.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

filtherton

I see what your saying, but you have to realize that the same applies to the right's treatment of the left. I've been called an america hater, an obl sympathiser, a baby killer, a dirty hippy.


Conservative or not, i welcome well reasoned viewpoints. I know that i really can't argue anything with you when it comes to econ and gave up trying a long time ago because you know what you're talking about on that issue. My economic knowledge is limited and mostly guided by idealism.

I'm sorry if you feel attacked, but both sides have their "attack dogs" and both sides have their thoughtful members.

onetime2

I absolutely agree that both sides are guilty of it at times and it's really only a few individuals who are continually guilty.

The thing that many people don't quite understand is that the sheer number of "left" leaning posts pushes away conservative posters. I mentioned in another thread that there are few "middle of the road" conservatives here at the politics board. I believe it's entirely due to the fact that so many people come out against anyone posting something even slightly supportive of Republican views. The only "conservatives" who stick around are pretty outspoken or are infrequent contributors.

As far as econ arguments, to tell you the truth, I enjoy those who debate the economic "facts" I post since it does help me to clarify my viewpoints (not only on the board but in my own mind) and these debates have influenced my opinions on some issues. Of course, there are still quite a few of the "attack dogs" who claim I'm a liar for claiming to be an economist, despite my innumerable postings detailing economic policy.

There are certainly quite a few people here that I enjoy discussing things with, unfortunately they are a small minority.

Emotions run high in politics and it's understandable. I just hope the board can be a bit more welcoming to conservative viewpoints as it's the only way we will get a representative cross section of views.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

mml

I generally wanted to stay out of this debate. I am always sorry to see anyone leave, but so be it. However, I had to make a comment on this. It really is not the fault of fellow posters that a large, vocal group is "left" leaning. I realize this may come as a shock (tongue firmly embedded in cheek), but talk radio is innundated with "right" leaning hosts and you can't imagine how that pushes away the liberal listeners. The reality is that in life and particularly in politics there are going to be people who disagree with you and how you handle that says a great deal about who you are.


I do appreciate that you use the word "facts". We all throw around statitics and numbers and supposed facts. But the reality is that economists, scientists, politicians etc... are generally split 50-50 on most "vital" or "socially relevent" issues. It is only to be expected that we disagree on the facts.

And as far as this thread being "intellectual masturbation" I think I would drop the "intellectual" part and just call it whacking off.

Peace, love, democracy and capitalism. I think MOST of us will agree on these issues. (just not how to achieve them. )