01-27-2004, 06:44 PM | #1 (permalink) | ||||||||||||||
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
|
Filtherton... Here's our hijack thread...
From the CBS thread, since I'm sick of thread hijacking thought this would be more appropriate.
I said... Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You wrote Quote:
So bottom line for me is, if you don't believe in god, whether it be Christian/Hebrew/Islam/Shiva/Vishnu/Gaia/Etc. types, fine. Just don't get past the fact that this country was founded on Religious principles, and that God the creator has a role in our founding and our society... and he doesn't have to be Christian. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
||||||||||||||
01-27-2004, 07:24 PM | #3 (permalink) |
Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe.
Location: UCSB
|
Deism will never, EVER equal Christanity, no matter how much you want it to. In those quotes I saw all of three that made direct references to Jeudo-christian belief, a generic god still isn't christanity.
__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." |
01-27-2004, 07:30 PM | #5 (permalink) |
Junkie
|
They may not have explicity said the the Christain God but that doesn't mean it wasn't the God they were implieing. You would have to look that their religion to be sure or perhaps take the quotes in context. When I talk about God I don't say "The Christian God" but I sure mean the Christian God.
|
01-27-2004, 07:33 PM | #6 (permalink) | |
Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe.
Location: UCSB
|
Quote:
__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." |
|
01-27-2004, 07:42 PM | #7 (permalink) |
Mencken
Location: College
|
I appreciate your efforts to make your point of view more clear. It's always helpful to know just what it is we're disagreeing about. People on both sides of this issue have a personal stake in it, as atheism and religion of any kind are in the most fundamental form of opposition, which is to say that they are 100% mutually exclusive.
But, that's not what we're talking about, is it? Here are a few of my thoughts on the matter. One, the founders did inherit an intellectual tradition that was largely religious and largely Christian. However, the intellectual movements of the time were inevitably becoming secular. In 1779, Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion were published. This work had the effect of removing religion from serious philosophy (an effect that has lasted to this day). It is also important to note freedom of religious practice and freedom from a religious government are protected in the constitution. Granted, the Bill of Rights was not in the original constitution, but the wonderful democratic process that went on during the time put them there. To these men, the world was viewed as a wonderful machine created by God. This idea has its roots in Newton, who produced a theory that explained how things move. There are a couple of points worth making about the religiosity of the founders. One is that many of the founders practiced a form of Christianity called Deism, which basically viewed God as an inventor. He created the world in such a way that it would work perfectly without further intervention, and God was therefore unnecessary in everyday life. This view empowered men to try to understand the world. It was a religious school that worked very hard to accomodate science. Secondly, the mentions and incantations related to God in much of the writing in the time was not meant literally. The "In God we trust" on currency serves a largely ceremonial purpose. This practice is called ceremonial deism. Note here that I'm not talking specifically about your quotes. Ceremonial deism is mostly written. The thing is, none of our governing documents establish christianity as our religion. Indeed, that is expressly forbidden by the greatest thing those religious men ever wrote. Religion may have been important to them, but they knew that the only just government is one that stays as far away from religion as it can.
__________________
"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention." |
01-27-2004, 07:42 PM | #8 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
|
Who's backpedaling? I was talking about God the creator, not from any particular denomination. And your arguement about Deism is moot, just like your stating my assertation of Christianity's role, a few representatives of Deism does not take away from the role Christianity and its teachings had in the founding of this country.
__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
01-27-2004, 07:50 PM | #9 (permalink) |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
|
There seems to be some confusion here.
This country was founded by people with strong religious principals. They were wise enough to found it on solely secular grounds, despite their beliefs. And to the original poster, Abraham Lincoln was not one of the founding fathers.
__________________
Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
|
01-27-2004, 07:51 PM | #10 (permalink) | ||||
Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe.
Location: UCSB
|
You said...
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Really, do I need need to go any further on that issue ? On the founding father thing, the only person who you list that made a Judeo-christian comment and could be concidered a founder is Henry. He kept RI from having input in the CC II, kind of keeping him from founder status.
__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." Last edited by nanofever; 01-27-2004 at 07:55 PM.. |
||||
01-27-2004, 08:22 PM | #11 (permalink) |
Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe.
Location: UCSB
|
And since I'm a firm believer in "whats good for the goose is good for the gander" when quoting people who have been dead for 200 years.
James Madison"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785 "Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785 John Adams "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816 "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson "What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." - John Adams, letter to John Taylor "The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." - John Adams, letter to John Taylor Thomas Jefferson "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814 "Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia" "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787 "It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests." - Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803 "But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." - Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810 "History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813 "On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind." - Thomas Jefferson to Carey, 1816 "But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted fro artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object." - Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819 "It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentence toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it. Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore him to the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and the first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus." - Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, 1820 "The office of reformer of the superstitions of a nation, is ever more dangerous. Jesus had to work on the perilous confines of reason and religion; and a step to the right or left might place him within the grasp of the priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore." - Thomas Jefferson to Story, Aug. 4, 1820 "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin. 1. That there are three Gods. 2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing. 3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith. 4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use. 5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save." - Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822 "Creeds have been the bane of the Christian church ... made of Christendom a slaughter-house." - Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822 "The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." - Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823 "The metaphysical insanities of Athanasius, of Loyola, and of Calvin, are, to my understanding, mere lapses into polytheism, differing from paganism only by being more unintelligible." - Thomas Jefferson to Jared Sparks, 1820 Benjamin Franklin "I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did." - Benjamin Franklin letter to his father, 1738 "I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." - Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728 "I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." - Benjamin Franklin Works, Vol. VII, p. 75 "If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England." - Benjamin Franklin
__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." |
01-27-2004, 08:30 PM | #12 (permalink) | |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
|
Quote:
__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
|
01-27-2004, 08:42 PM | #13 (permalink) |
* * *
|
Let's not forget that the social contract thinking tradition started primarily with Thomas Hobbes as a way to justify government without relying on God to do so. Other contract thinkers (such as John Locke) following him had nicer views of the state of nature and a belief in God, but the whole movement began with a squirrely Englishman afraid for his life. The words in our Constitution and Bill of Rights contain a strange mix of the ideas of these thinkers. I don't particularly think that God needs to be in the pledge of allegiance (come on, the Cold War is over), but I think that looking at tradition to justify the removal of the line or keeping it is full of weird paradoxes. I have trouble having children say it, because of the Age of Reason problems with it. I know adults that have become so automated with the pledge that they don't realize that they're following in Hobbes's footsteps with the idea that for a government to be legitimate it needs to be agreed to by the citizens. This is an explicit change to how things were several hundred years ago, and people take it as a common everyday thing, as though it was always that way... it's a little troubling to me that something so profound as this kind of pledge has been reduced to this question of God and extreme patriotism. I think there's a lot more going on here...
__________________
Innominate. |
01-27-2004, 10:32 PM | #14 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
|
Wow, i go see a movie and come back and there's a thread bearing my name. Not only that, but someone has already made my point better than i ever could. Nanofever is my hero.
I agree, christians have played a vital role in that christianity has been the religion of the majority for a long time. But i might also point out that democracy is at its very nature the exact opposite of the church. There is no democracy in religion. The pope doesn't wait for a quorum, much less a consesus. Religions historically have sought a monopoly on the power over and dreams of their subjects. How is that anything like america? The ten commandments claim to be the laws of god him/herself- unchangable and as just as the universe itself. Well, here in america we believe that the law should be made by the people, and that it should be alterable in case we make a mistake. So now you may say to yourself, "Why shouldn't we post the ten commandments on public property?" Well from one perspective it's public property and the ten commandments ARE religious. Foundation of law-whatever, lots of americans are christian-whatever. However you try to present the ten commandments you are never going to be able to say "These commandments have absolutely nothing to do with any specific religion and are in no way endorsing said religion" and still be an honest, rational person. I know a lot of christians pretend to be history buffs just trying to spread the good word about the foundations of law when it comes to the ten commandments. That's fine. Just tell me why, if it is simply a matter of history, must the ten commandments be posted on public property? Why wouldn't a museum do? No! If only we might have one statue erected on public property that might halt the intoxicated masses from forgeting that this is a mostly christian country. The same goes with "in god we trust". How can you try to claim that little phrase isn't religious? By virtue of the fact that not all religions have just one god, or even a god at all, it endorses all single god based spirituality at the expense of many other completely valid religions. Freedom from religion has more to do with america being what it is than christianity ever could. Christianity could be any other religion as far as the constitution is concerned. In bizarro world we could be on here debating whether the eightfold path should be posted on public property(although that seems like the kind of thing that a monk probably wouldn't be too concerned with) and america could be exactly the same aside from the majority religion. |
01-27-2004, 10:52 PM | #15 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: South Carolina
|
One thing, just to add a point
the constitutional debate waged on for quite some time over certain issues. The bill of rights was a compromise that explicitly spelled out certain things gov't could and could not do. so in essence, it was written as a way to keep religion out while including it.
__________________
Live. Chris |
Tags |
filtherton, hijack, thread |
|
|