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Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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Filtherton... Here's our hijack thread...
From the CBS thread, since I'm sick of thread hijacking thought this would be more appropriate.
I said...
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Whats wrong with mentioning God the creator in the pledge? After all it was through him that all our rights were endowed and on that basis and tradition that our country was founded
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You replied...
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Through him? Give me a break. I guess i was mistaken. I was under the impression that our country was founded on the basis of democracy and the idea of basic human rights and equality. This country does not belong to your god. This country belongs to all of its citizens, even the ones who don't believe in jesus or god.
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I cite
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When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Furthermore it is well documented how the Judeo-Christian influence nurtured and helped influence our founding and laws, I hope that even you would not argue that.
You wrote
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You throw around the word ignorant like you have no concept of irony. Did you even read what you wrote?
Well, thanks for enlightening me on the existence of judaism. Perhaps now you will let me return the favor by letting you in on a little secret. Not all americans fall into either the christian or jew category. Some don't even believe in god at all. In fact the founding fathers didn't believe in your god. Is that the basis and tradition that you were speaking of? Why should people who don't share your particular belief system have to be exposed to some other religion's propaganda in light of the statistical certainty that a whole lot of conservative christians would throw an absolute hissyfit if some judge dared to have a shrine to buddha in the rotunda of a courthouse? The state and the church shouldn't mix. It never works out well for anyone except the priests and the clerics.
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I hear what you are saying, I was jsut pointing out an earlier statement were you stated that the 10 commandments in a court house is forcing Christianity down other peoples throats. And your right if there was a shrine of Buddha in a court house Christians would get pissed, but I somehow doubt that the righteous ACLU would say anything...
So bottom line for me is, if you don't believe in god, whether it be Christian/Hebrew/Islam/Shiva/Vishnu/Gaia/Etc. types, fine. Just don't get past the fact that this country was founded on Religious principles, and that God the creator has a role in our founding and our society... and he doesn't have to be Christian.
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"All persons living in this province, who confess and acknowledge the One Almighty and Eternal God to be the Creator, Upholder, and Ruler of the world, and that hold themselves obliged in conscience to live peaceably and justly in civil society, shall in no wise be molested or prejudiced for their religious persuasion or practice, in matters of faith and worship; nor shall they be compelled at any time to frequent or maintain any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever." April 25, 1662- William Penn signed this to establish religious liberty in the new provence of (Pennsylvania).
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"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations. The battle is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, ALMIGHTY GOD! Give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry of the Constitutional Convention
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"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States.." "...Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency" From President George Washington's Inaugural Address, April 30th, 1789, addressed to both Houses of Congress.
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"I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- God Governs in the Affairs of Men, And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, Is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid?" Benjamin Franklin
"Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this." Benjamin Franklin, 1787, Constitutional Convention
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"We have no government armed in power capable of contending in human passions ubridled by morality and religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." John Adams, address to the militia of Massachusetts, 1798.
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"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." President Thomas Jefferson
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"Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land." James Madison
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"Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine....Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other." James Wilson, a signer of the Constitution and an original Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court
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"The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion." Abraham Lincoln.
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and finally...
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"Fellow countrymen: At this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office, there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first...The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself; and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured...
"Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and as a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other...The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully...If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him?
Fondly do we hope - fervently do we pray - that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'The judgements of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.'
"With malice toward none; charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan - to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations." Immediately afterwards, Lincoln kissed the Bible, bowed, and retired from the platform. Abraham Lincoln's 2nd inaugural address, March 4th, 1865.
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I figured I'd throw down some words of the FF, since they can make the case better then me.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.
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