Endymon32

Again where is your proof that America is responcible for 9 11. I am eagerly awaiting the proof for your INSULTING comments. Keep spewing things that have nothing to do with it all you want, or you can admit that you are talking out of a differnt oriface than your mouth.

SLM3

I don't see why you're so confused.

This is what I'm saying. The US, through its foreign policy as highlighted by my list of examples, has created many enemies out of the people effected by its policies.. It is of little surprise to me that these enemies decided to strike back at the US. This is what I say was the root cause of 9/11. In my opinion, in order to avoid similar attacks in the future, the US would have to re-evaluate its foreign policy in order to alleviate the oppressive pressure which it places on many people around the world.

Easier said than done.


SLM3

Endymon32

Just as I thought, no proof. Just rhetoric. Bin Laden as stated that the reason he attacked the towers was in direct retaliation of the US putting troops in Saudi Arabia. The troops were placed
their at the request of the Saudi Government as they were scared of Saddam moving into their nation.
So you are wrong. Bin Laden attacked us because he thinks that we violated Koranic Law in placing heathen soldiers in the holy land, not for anyother reason. This was what he read on his tapes that were broadcast on Al Jazera, and then restated many times over.
So once again, you are wrong. Our policy of HELPING an ally ( one that I have many problems with) against an aggressor is the reason why 4000 Americans were murdered.

Ustwo

Blaming the US for 9/11 is like blaming a woman for getting raped. Sure she looked good in those hotpants and she shouldn't have left her drink unattended, but that doesn't give you the right to drug her and make her your fuck toy.

Perhaps if she were more attentive it wouldn't have happened, but that doesn't mean you don't punish the rapist.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Strange Famous

Bin Laden may well believe that.

The social conditions that give him power and supporters are those of gross poverty, inequality and injustice.

In many cases, these governments are supported by America (for example, in the Kingdom, or in the case of Saddam Hussain who America supported in preference to the Islamic Iran.)

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Strange Famous

I hope it will not be considered a personal attack to say that I do not agree with your analogy, and also find it to be very insensitive.

What is being said is that ever since at least the end of WWII, throughtout the cold war and onwards, America has behaved in a way in its foriegn policy that has created many many enemies.

Every innocent civilian that is gunned down in Iraq creates tomorrow's suicide bombers, not Islam - which as a religion is more peaceful and tolerant that Christianity. Bin Laden may well be a maniac, he certainly preaches hate, but his message of hate only reaches people because of the damage done to them by corrupt governments and intolerable social conditions.

America did not bomb the WTC itself, nor did it ask anyone else to do so, but by attacking, undermining, and intimidating other cultures and countries, it created an environment in which it was more likely to be struck down.

I doubt any of the office workers killed in the WTC deserved to die anymore than the average Iraqi hit by a stray American bomb or a panicky bullet fired in the wrong direction (not to mention the occasional rapes, murders and muggings, which ALL occupying forces carry out on foriegn soil)

You have to have understanding of basic facts, if you blow up medicine factories in Africa, if you bomb civilians all over the world because you dont like their governments, if you undermine elected governments everywhere, carry our murders, and everything else the CIA does... you create a wave of hatrid that will retaliate, however strong you are.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

SLM3

I'd say it's more like hitting a bully from behind with a bat.



SLM3

Rekna

stange most bullies take people's money not give them money.

kiwiman

And you of course have proof of this insane accusation?

Strange Famous

There are plenty of stories online, check out any anti-war site, I will find some for you tomorrow if you need help.

I am not accusing America of being especially guilty of this, in almost every case in history, an occupying army carries out rapes, looting, petty crime, often killing local drugdealers for their stash...

It is the way that people behave when you train them to kill and surround them with the enemy who has been trying to kill them but is now helpless I guess.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

archer2371

You want to know the real reason OBL decided to go for the WTC and Pentagon, possibly Congress/White House attacks? I'll give you three guesses, and I'll give you a hint, his initials are WJC and he held the Presidency for two terms (1993-2001).

December 29, 1992-UBL targets the Goldmore and Aden Hotels in Yemen with bombings in order to kill American soldiers. Hotel Aden bombing is thwarted, Goldmore bomb explodes killing Yemeni citizens, but no American forces were killed because they had checked out the previous day. Goldmore still housed the Marine Corps' Aerial Refueler/Transport Squadron 352. These Marines were evacuated due to "security concerns". Bush Administration deferred to incoming Clinton Administration on this decision. In the weeks and months following, Yemen asked for international help (especially American help) to search for this new terrorist, Osama bin Laden. No help came, Clinton was more concerned with his economic package instead of responding strongly to terrorism and eliminating the Most Wanted Man in America. OBL's first success, didn't even have to kill Americans to get them the hell out of Dodge.

February 26, 1993-The first Twin Towers bombing carried out by the infamous Ramzi Yousef and various "expendables". Clinton never visits the damage site and hardly ever mentions the bombing to the public again, treating it more like a natural disaster rather than a murder. Launches the FBI on the case, while the FBI is successful in eventually capturing Ramzi Yousef, this sends the worse message possible to bin Laden, we won't strike back, we're only going to prosecute you. Bin Laden-2 Clinton-0.

September 25, 1993-Black Hawk helicopter Courage 53 is shot down by RPG fire over the streets of Mogadishu. The two pilots somehow survive, but thanks to a Clinton order back in June, no American armored vehicles are in the vicinity which are able to help the downed pilots. However, the United Arab Emirates fortunately had armored vehicles as part of their troop and were able to rescue the two downed pilots. Response from the White House is non-existent. Previously, the Clinton Admin had responded to a threat on former President George HW Bush's life with a cruise missile attack on an abandoned building. Bin Laden is emboldened and throws his support behind Mohammed Farrah Aideed and trains his men to use RPGs and Rocket Launchers to take down helicopters. Clinton doesn't learn this major lesson "Don't go to the well too many times", in several attempts to capture Aideed or his top advisors, the United States followed this action plan: using helicopters to set up a perimeter, using special forces as policemen, and using Humvees (not the Bradley Fighting Unit) as transports for the captured advisors. None of this worked, they used this plan six times, and Aideed's men pounced on it, using the techniques given to them by bin Laden's men, they subsequently caused what is know as the Battle of the Black Sea which caused the death of 18 soldiers from Task Force Ranger. Clinton again responds with weakness instead of swift justice and again, bin Laden is emboldened to do more because the score is now 3-0 in favor of "Sheikh Osama".

This is just three out of many incidents where Clinton didn't do enough to stop bin Laden before 9/11. What created bin Laden and his attacks was the weakness showed by Clinton and that weakness only furthered bin Laden's courage to continue his attacks because he knew that America would not respond with strength. Until he bit off more than he could chew.

__________________
"This ain't no Ice Cream Social!"

"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

Endymon32

Is that why he fled Saudi Arabia and his own family disavowed him? Is that why he had to flee to Afganistand and over throw a government? Aal becahse he was as you erroneously claim " he was suported by the Kingdom". Man arent you embarressed by being wrong on every point you make yet?

Endymon32

Yea, right.....

SLM3

The US takes far more money from the world than it gives.


SLM3

Endymon32

Its insesitive to whom, the rapist?

Quote:

What is being said is that ever since at least the end of WWII, throughtout the cold war and onwards, America has behaved in a way in its foriegn policy that has created many many enemies.

And look at the enemies we made, the Soviet Union, Communist China, North Korea, Castro, Saddam, Iran, Looks like we are picking the right kind of person to be enemies with. Why did France, England, Iceland not make that list? Cause they respect live, freedom and other nations.

Quote:

Every innocent civilian that is gunned down in Iraq creates tomorrow's suicide bombers, not Islam - which as a religion is more peaceful and tolerant that Christianity. Bin Laden may well be a maniac, he certainly preaches hate, but his message of hate only reaches people because of the damage done to them by corrupt governments and intolerable social conditions.

Acutally you are wrong again. The Madrassas teach hatred, and chanting Koranic Law. Not much else. In Iraq, were teachers pay has increased 12 times since the invasion, more and more teachers will take the job. Under the democratic leadership that over 80% of that nation now has, and 99% of the schools are opened ( more than were when Saddam was in charge) are TEACHING again. Not brainwashing. When those properly educated childred get nice jobs, and eat nice food, and see how life is pretty good since the Evil Americans came it, I seriously doubt they will be killing for allah anytime soon. If you are correct why does two thirds of Iran WANT American intervention? And if you think that ISlam was more peaceful than Christianity, you are laughably wrong. Your ignorance on topics you talk about is embarressing. Mohammad himself was a warrior that attacked caravans for fun, rape and profit. Very peaceful indeed.

Quote:

America did not bomb the WTC itself, nor did it ask anyone else to do so, but by attacking, undermining, and intimidating other cultures and countries, it created an environment in which it was more likely to be struck down.

Umm you have any proof of this? O, look who I am asking for proof. Sorry, carry on ranting.

Quote:

I doubt any of the office workers killed in the WTC deserved to die anymore than the average Iraqi hit by a stray American bomb or a panicky bullet fired in the wrong direction (not to mention the occasional rapes, murders and muggings, which ALL occupying forces carry out on foriegn soil)

I know, no civillian deserves to die, but since you are so smart, you can tell me your plan to stop the 100,000 killings per year in Iraq, while France, CHina, Russia, and Germany were willing to by pass UN resolutions and continue to enable Saddam? I thought you didnt have a plan. All your suggestions would do is allow 100,000 more people to die each year. I thought you cared about the Iraqis, when your stance clearly shows you just are just the opposite.

Quote:

You have to have understanding of basic facts, if you blow up medicine factories in Africa, if you bomb civilians all over the world because you dont like their governments, if you undermine elected governments everywhere, carry our murders, and everything else the CIA does... you create a wave of hatrid that will retaliate, however strong you are.

You have to realsie that for 50 years, the very peopel you champion, the communists, were aggressively arming and taking over nations like a fat man eating candies. While most of the world was content to let this happen, the US took the hard stance and halted communist expansion. As you know, communistm has claimed the lives of 125 million people this century alone. So the actions taken by the US stopped this monsterous spread of an idealogy worse than Nazism. You can, and will, choose to ignore this, but the fact remains, that US forgein police over the past 50 years stopped the deadliest threat to mankind since the Black Plauge. And people like you would rather they didnt.

DOnt bother to thank us, I know you wont.

Endymon32

You have proof to back this up?

Ustwo

Technically no. If that were true we wouldn't have a trade imbalance.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

SLM3

I'm not talking just import vs. export. Look at the big picture. Where does money flow and why does it flow that way?



SLM3

Ustwo

You made the claim, show us.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

SLM3

This makes for interesting reading:

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRel...Criticisms.asp


We can spout on about the free market economy until we're blue in the face, but we have to realize the reality of it all is far from a free market. The US, exerting the most influence, has always seen the "free" market work more in its favour than anyone else.

I wonder if you guys honestly don't believe that the US is the richest nation in the world because it takes more from the world than it gives, or if you're disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.


SLM3

Endymon32

I thought we were the richest nation cause we work the hardest, and have the best freedoms, and reward the industrious. But go figure...

Mantus

I don’t think that the main question has been answered.

IS there any documentation available to the public that shows the links between 9/11 and Bin Laden? I frankly cannot find any. All I get is news reports with latest headlines stating “US reports Bin Laden did it!” So if any has any good links detailing the government’s case of 9/11 I would really love to read them.

Further more, I am sick and tired of people thinking that just because some one is skeptical of the 9/11 case then believe that the American government did it or the Israelis did it or some other crap like that. Being a skepticism simply means that you are not ready put your faith in a particular answer.

Thousands of Americans were killed on September 11th. More Americans were killed in Afghanistan. Thousands of Afghani civilians were killed during the war. We spent billions of dollars to bomb a country into ruin and then forget about it.

Our response needs to be justified. If our response was wrong some one needs to be held accountable.

There are problems though. Asking for the current Administration to give us proper information of the 9/11 case is like asking the fox to guard the henhouse. The Administration has been known to flat out lie to the public on several occasions (read weapons of mass destruction evidence and Saddam link to Bin Laden evidence among other cases). Therefore it is necessary to have an independent investigation of the 9/11 case. So far the only investigation I am aware of occurred behind closed doors and the results of which were heavily censored. Mind you I have never even seen these documents, I simply heard that they exist.

This whole argument between SLM3 and other posters is completely irrelevant until details are known. So it would be nice to actually get some of the details. God knows there are about a trillion websites out there dealing with the holes in the 9/11 case; yet I cannot find one that provides documentation offering proof of the 9/11 case. So once again as the starting post asked, has any one have a link to such a information. Thank you.

Ustwo

After about 120 seconds on google I came up with this british report from October 1 2001.

and then of course there is this OBL quote...

http://www.sovereignty.net/center/bi...tape_text.html

So I ask you, what more proof do you NEED?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Strange Famous

That article is filled with nothing but hearsay, there is not one strand of actual evidence. The Bin Laden tapes are probably fakes also.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Ustwo

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Rekna

so we have archer saying OBL attacked us because we didn't act and we have others saying OBL attacked us because we did act. So which is it?

OBL has admitted that he was behind 9/11 what else do you need? Ask Arabs throughout the world if they believe OBL was behind 9/11 and I bet you a large majority of them would say yes.

There is no proof of the holocaust either right? It never happend? We never visted the moon and Kezer Soce doesn't really exist .

Strange Famous

There is a great deal of proof of the holocaust, including official records, photographs and films, bodies and the property of the murdered, eye witness accounts, and survivor testimony.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Rekna

doesn't OBL saying "I did it" count as real evidence? How about all the money trails that lead back to him? How about the fact that all of the hijackers had recently attended an alqueda training camp?

unfortunatly a blind man can see better than you strange famous

Strange Famous

You misunderstood. The Kingdom is supported by America, the government of Saudi Arabia is very unpopular and would be overthrown by Islamic fundamentalists if not for American support and arms.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Strange Famous

Please show me evidence if I am wrong. I do not believe that Bin Laden has ever claimed responsibility, and has in fact denied that he was involved. I have heard him congratulate the bombers, and encourage other's to follow their example and said it a a good thing, but I have never seen or heard any example of him saying he did it.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Rekna

He released a video in which he was talking about how the planes hitting the twin towers would cause them to colapse. They discussed how they planned which floors they wanted to hit and such.

archer2371

Obviously, I'm going to side with my argument here. (Well duh ya know?) Anyways... I'm saying that Bill Clinton had plenty of time to take out OBL before the end of is term. There was even a chance when bin Laden attacked those two hotels in Yemen (which are incidentally on the same bay that the USS Cole was docked when it was bombed) to stop him, the Yemeni Intelligence Service asked for several nations to help track OBL down and bring him in. No help came. Bin Laden wasn't identified as a "major threat" by the United States until 1994 when Bill Clinton was identified as one of the targets in "Project Bojinka" he took it personal, but not personal enough and continued to work terrorists as a legal problem, not a threat to National Security. Clinton did some good things in fighting terrorists, but it wasn't enough, as evidenced on the morning of September 11th. That's what I believe, and there are plenty of facts to back that up, with documents from the CIA, Middle East Intelligence Services, and Filipino Intel Services and officials high up in each of the governments have commented on Osama bin Laden and the efforts to capture him pre-9/11.

__________________
"This ain't no Ice Cream Social!"

"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

Ustwo

Thats the quote I put in my last post (from the video) but of course thats fake.

You don't understand, if it shows OBL guilty, it must be faked.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Endymon32

There is also proof that the communists killed 125 million people. All the same evidence mentioned above. Yet some people say communism is still viable.

Endymon32

So you are supporting a regime of Islamic fundamentalists to take over the largest oil reserves in the world? Man your postion on everything is abusrd.

SLM3

Technically, were they even communists?


SLM3

Endymon32

The dead may not be, but the killers sure were.

SLM3

So many of your replies are filled with you putting words in other people's mouths. Then you attack whatever argument you've created for yourself. And then of course you top it all off with a personal attack.

Seriously, stop it.


SLM3

Endymon32

Do you deny that the communists killed 125 million people or are you just angry with me for showing how you are always incorrect?

SLM3

Explain.