Ustwo

Endymon32 - Just a bit of info for you. Whenever you corner a leftist on how many millions of their own citizens communist governments have murdered they like to point out that the governments weren't really communists.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

SLM3

I'm sorry Ustwo, I'll remember from now on not to ask the Right to use language which actually represents anything more than a generalized, innacurate and ultimately useless point of view.

I'm sorry, I was asking too much and I apologize.


SLM3

Endymon32

The communists caused the deaths of 125 million people. There I explained it.

SLM3

Do you understand now why it's so hard for me to take you seriously?


SLM3

Endymon32

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

http://www.ncpa.org/debate2/blackbook.html

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstats.htm

http://www.usiap.org/Viewpoints/Glob...Communism.html

These are the first links i got there are plenty more.

Communism kills.

Endymon32

So prove me wrong if I am so factually wrong. Show me that Communism DIDNT kill 125 million people. And while you are at it, lets deny the holocost too.

SLM3

Just like how guns kill, too. Right?


com·mu·nism

a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed

a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably.

Do the communist countries you list adhere to this philosophy?

SLM3

Ustwo

And the paper...

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

and another..



At least communism seems good at ONE thing.

But I know its all lies....lies..lies..lies...

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

SLM3

What's the name of that list of online debate rules? Ya know, the one that says you automatically lose if you mention Hitler. Is there anything about accusing someone of being a Holocaust denier?

It bothers me that I have to completely spell out my point for you every single time. I disagree with Ustwo on practically everything, but atleast I don't have to hold his hand in order for him to tleast see what I'm saying.

I'm not defending communism. In fact, I think it's an idealistic notion that doesn't have any basis in reality. There will always be those who wont settle. But I'm not going to create a scapegoat in order to boost my argument. I'm not going to oversimplify something so it fits my point of view. Communism, as it is ultimately meant to look, has never even come close to being represented by a major power.

I'm arguing with you because I want you to take the time to actually give these subjects the respect they deserve. How is China different from the USSR? How are they both not communist? Why can't we make blanket statements?

SLM3

Endymon32

So you admit that communism killed 125 million people? Wasnt that my whole point?

Now if only you can admit that Osama Bin Laden planed 9 11 we can make progress...

SLM3

Oh Dear God.


SLM3

Endymon32

I know its shocking when you think that the communists could be WORSE than the nazis. But weather its National SOCIALISM or just plain communism, its a bad day for the common man.

Ustwo

Now now lets stay on topic....

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

onetime2

Caution, extreme sarcasm ahead:

Yep, I'm sure Osama would have turned out to be a wonderful man if only he didn't live in squalor as he grew up.

The evil oppressive US governmental policies throughout the middle east caused the economic/social divide amongst the people there. Sultans didn't exist before we needed their oil.

There's no need for war. Everything can be talked through and so long as we "understand" each other we can live in peace and harmony. No nation will ever again covet another's land/resources.

Sarcasm off.

Seriously though, absolutely the US has had some horrendous policies (just as every other nation has) and we are typically guilty of looking out for #1 to the detriment of others we deal with. But that does NOT mean that 9/11 or any terrorist acts are excusable or understandable. In the long term there absolutely needs to be changes made in dealing with MANY countries. In the SHORT TERM we need to protect our citizens. Even if we could change the societies that produce terrorists overnight, there are still far too many willing to die just to kill the "infidels".

__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

Easytiger

Nice one, Ustwo.

Rekna

Communisim doesn't really kill the problem is communism in theory doesn't work because it goes completly against human nature. Human nature does not promote sharing it promotes power mongering (which seems to happen in communist governments often). In addition if you share everything equally not everyone will contribute their fair share. If I get the same check as everyone else does no matter what I do then i'm not going to do anything. And neither is the next guy or the next guy. Thus we have a problem. In addition if you take a basic economics course you will quickly learn that a free market always pushes it'self to an equillibrium which is the most effecient point. Communism does not do this. In addition a free market offers incentive for people to work harder, communism doesn't.

Anyways enough about this because it is way off topic.

Strange Famous

There is no proof of this and there can be no proof of it, because it is not true.

More people have been killed by leaders who claim to be guided by Christianity, would you applaud America working to eliminate Christianity and crush Christian nations?

Just because Pol Pot or Stalin calls himself a communist, does not mean it is true (anymore true than Hernan Cortes saying he was guided by God to destroy the Aztecs...). Things done by a Stalinist dictatorship are not done by communism.

Also, to come close to a figure that is so huge, you must be including those killed in famine in China and Russia, yet these famines were made far worse by the West refusing to help.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Strange Famous

Please show me WHY you think the Soviet Union was a communist country?

Can you give evidence of worker democracy? of democratically owned means of production? of completely free and open elections of all public posts? Of the ansence of any kind of state in the modern sense of the word? Of the completely equal distribution of political power?

Can you show links to examples of how these communist ideals where enjoyed in Stalin's Russia, rather than a graph that shows how many people died in Russia which someone types "communist" next too?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Ustwo

See what did I tell you Endymon32, the above is always the excuse. A tenent of communism is if it didn't work it must not have been communism.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Strange Famous

Can you not even try to answer the question then?

What evidence do you have that the Soviet Union was a communist country?

Because either you do not know what "communism" means, or you do not know what "Russia" is, it would seem.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Ustwo

Strange one - I don't care what you SAY communism is. What you say is a mythic fairy land, which violates all common sense. I care what people who call themselves communist DO, and what they DO is murder, repress, and subjugate their own people!

How many million bodies do you people get before we say enough is enough!

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

2wolves

The propaganda the United States produced showing how the USSR and the PRC were totally communistic was very well received in America. That both of the aforementioned counties were serial dictatorships with a veneer of socialism to keep the serfs in line is not worth discussing as it falls outside the pravda most americans have grown up with. Just as National Socialism had a national health care system, and american right-ies will scream till dawn that socialism is even in its name for the love of ghad, illustrating all the other inherent aspects that define fascism is just a waste of effort.

Commies are still dropping bombies on their mommies.

2Wolves

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Nation of the Cat. Forgive maybe, forget .... not quite yet.

Strange Famous

So you will agree we must stamp out Christianity before communism though? Far more people who call themselves Christians have killed than those who call themselves communists.

Do you Hitler was a member of the Catholic Church all his life? Does this mean Christianity committed all of the crimes of Hitlerism?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Ustwo

No, because my radical friend, while all communist countries, murder, repress restrict and subjugate their own citizens, not all Christian countries do. Therefore the correlation fails. I really know this is wasted effort, your are blind to your idiology and it does grow tiresome, but try coming up with better arguments.

Also those who called themselves communists have killed about 125 million people.

Thats more then those that call themselves ANYTHING else, much less Christians.

I know math is hard.

EDIT: Forgot that murder thing

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Strange Famous

1, You are still counting famine, which is part act of God, part honest mismanagement, part enforced by the Westen embargo's against these nations, and part cruelty of someone like Mao or Stalin.

2, Christians have killed more than 125 million people throughout history.

3, The Paris Commune and the Israeli Kibbutz are the only societies in the world that have been close to communistic, they did not opress their own citizens, murder them, mistreat them, or anything else like this to a greater degree than openly reactive countries in the West, in fact freedoms in the commune and Kibbutz are far greater.

4, Really, your whole argument is just doublethink, "these people have the label of communist, therefore all communist societies lead to dictatorship, and often to murderous leaders." Calling oneself a communist country does not make one a communist country. China calls itself a "Democratic Republic" does it not? Why do you not count the deaths in Mao's China and after as deaths caused by democracy and those who believe in - when the Chinese government clearly calls itself "democratic"?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Endymon32

While i am not a fan of Christianity, you do realise that Christianity has caused the deaths of 125 million people in 2000 years, while Communism has cause that many deaths in a 100. Do the math and find out who is the greater threat.

Or we could apply Strange Famous logica and say anyone that has killed was not a Christian, as Christians don t kill so Christianity didnt kill anyone.

So Strange Famous, by your standards, Christianity never harmed a fly.

Endymon32

Again, you have no proof to offer, and the Israel Kibbutz are built on land stolen from people that lived their for 2000 years. So much for you "communism" they are also in part funded by the Capitalistic Israel government. The Paris Commune I assume is protected by , defended bye educated by and in the middle of a nice capitalistic nation so your proof is once again laughable.

Ustwo

The difference is no one is FORCED to be in a Kibbutz or commune. Communism can work in a small group, though I can't be sure it would work for a long time ( with the kids who might think differently), but it can work. What it can't do is work when you have millions of people who want no part of it. The solution of course is killing those people right?

Why do I keep responding....why do I keep responding....why do I keep responding...mmmmm donuts

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Strange Famous

The problem is that some people seem to lack understanding of what the word "communist" means, they cannot it seems free themselves from Cold War propoganda and the "Red Menace".

Communism does not, never has, never will, mean Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, or any other Nation State in the twentieth century.

Communism is a worldwide phenomona, which will be estabished by the collapse of capitalism, there will not be "communist countries" at war with "capitalist countries" - what will happen is the unity of working men and women across the world to rebuild the world into a communistic utopia, out of the ashes of a collapsed and failed capitalism.

What will destroy capitalism? One final world war? Ecological disaster? The sheer irresistable will of the people who long for a democratic communist world, or will the free market simply implode and grind to a halt, unable to function anymore through its inherent contradictions?

These are the questions - not childish comments that communists must be murdered because Stalin was a murder, and Stalin admired Lenin who admired Marx...

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Endymon32

Too bad communism means stalinist russia, Maoist China, and any other communist state in the twentieth century.

Rekna

How does communism handle people who do not want to help produce anything? You know people that just want to sit at home all day and play video games. Do they get the same check that everyone else does?

Endymon32

Robotic answer, " in communism, that will never happen as peopel will magically WANT to work, and work hard. NEver shirking, and being happy and content, while dancing with bunnies."

To bad the reality of communism is fammine, death and failure.

Rekna

Strange Famus please answer my question.

How does communism handle people who do not want to help produce anything? You know people that just want to sit at home all day and play video games. Do they get the same check that everyone else does?

Endymon32

They get a bullet and a mass grave.

Endymon32

I have another question. What is to stop this? Some workers just dont work. They slack off, they call in sick, they do shoddy work. Can they be fired in your Communist uptopia? What is the incentive to the other workers to work harder? Do they get individual raises? More time off? Shorter waits on the line for cheese?
If I realised that I was not going to get a raise, and I see others slacking off, and not getting fired, why should I work hard?
If they do get fired for slacking, what happens? Do they stop getting paid? Do they loose their house? Do they get another job and slack off?
How is the hard worker rewarded and the slacker discouraged?
Does the manager get more pay than the worker? If not, what is the benifit of being the manager? If so, then that is not sharing, as the worker, by defintion of communism, is the most important part of a company.
Why be a doctor? Why goe through all that schooling, and stress to not be rewarded for your hard work.
Why open a store at all? If you open a shop, it doesnt belong to you. So the government will open Comic Book Stores? Porno Shops? Art Movie THeaters?
Why will I make a movie? How can I profit off it? Why risk such a hit or miss proffesion if I can just make an easlier living slacking off in some office?
Why write a book? I wont be able to keep the rights of the book, it will belong to the state, and I will not recieve the compenstion if it is a hit.
Can I move if I dont like my home? What is to prevent anyone from living in the best homes in say, Beverly Hills, or the slums in East LA? What is the criteria for those places? Can I choose to live in a nice mountain estate, or will the government decide that i have to live in a flat in Brooklyn?
What if I dont like my job? Can I switch jobs? What about my doctor? What if he is one of those slackers? Do I have to stay with him? How many grocery stores will the government fund in my area? What if my only store is filled with slackers?
Why should the meat inspector work hard? What is his insentive? Again, can he be fired, and if so, does he share in this communist utopia?


All these things, can and did happen and still happen in Communist states. This is why their econonmies slowed down, and crashed.

madp

I'm a newbie, so forgive my intrusion. But I have to laugh to myself at the idea that the US economy is somehow <i>harmful</i> to developing nations.

The fact of the matter is that since the US became engine for the world's economy, nation development has occured at an unprecedented rate of speed. The standard of living in across the globe has improved rather dramatically since the end of WWII.

US consumerism is GOOD for the people of developing nations. The US trade imbalance is GOOD for the standard of living in formerly impoverished countries.

The reason for the dominance of the US economy is that the government places fewer burdens on businesses than do other nations. As a result, the best and brightest from all over the world have come to this country to seek their fortunes, and have built a country that continues to enjoy an unprecedented prosperity while contributing to the prosperity of the rest of the world.

OK, enough rhetoric; here's some data for you to consider before you go bashing the impact of the US on world prosperity. Facts speak much louder than academic polisci theorizing:

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/pdf/hdr03_HDI.pdf

__________________
why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

Endymon32

Thanks Madp,

I was going to ask for proof that America is crippling third world nations, since a lot of that talk was flung out, but I guess I got distracted by the loonie Commie praising.

So anyone have any data that shows that American capitalism is destroying the third world?

madp

If you take the time to examine the data I posted on the UN's human development index, you'll see that practically all of the nations on the dangerously low end of the scale are African.
The African continent's woes are clearly more directly related to European colonialism, corruption in organized governments, and civil war among tribes thrown together in "countries" designated by British, French, and Dutch colonialists.

In sum, Africa's problems are HARDLY the fault of the U.S.

__________________
why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

Rekna

Third time is a charm, maybe he will answer it now. If he doesn't we all know that he is a naive optimisit.


Strange Famus please answer my question.

How does communism handle people who do not want to help produce anything? You know people that just want to sit at home all day and play video games. Do they get the same check that everyone else does?

This is an honest question. Because communism in theory sounds great but in practice it never seems to work because of problems like this.

Strange Famous

These people will not exist in a communist society. If there is a person who is pathologically lazy, they will be educated and socialised to understand the fulfillment they can find in work and contributing to the social fund.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas