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Old 12-27-2003, 12:20 PM   #1 (permalink)
follower of the child's crusade?
 
is there any real proof that Usama Bin Laden organised the WTC attacks?

I have never seen any.

All I have seen evidence of is that Bin Laden is a religious bigot, a loudmouth, and a trouble maker.

Has anyone shown that he actually physically organised these attacks?

I think it is less frightening for people to blame Bin Laden, the idea of the mad criminal mastermind with his terrorist army is far less scarey than the probable truth: which is that all it takes to kill so many innocents, even in th emost powerful country in the world, is a ragged band of 20 people who are ready to die to damage another power, and who are armed with steak knives and a copy of Microsoft Flight Simulator.

The weapons and means of destruction are so great, and so numerous, no country or people can hope to defend itself, the bomber will always get through, and if history teaches you nothing else - vengance is never sated.
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Old 12-27-2003, 12:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
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There was actually very conclusive links between the hijackers and UBLs organisation. There were known meetings, money trails, and the increase in communication with the group just prior to the event.

The link between UBL and Hussien is far more tenuous...

Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
The weapons and means of destruction are so great, and so numerous, no country or people can hope to defend itself, the bomber will always get through, and if history teaches you nothing else - vengance is never sated.
What do you suggest as a course of action then? Sit and take it?
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Old 12-27-2003, 12:35 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by debaser
...

What do you suggest as a course of action then? Sit and take it?
I think the choice is pretty stark, either peace, or destruction.
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Old 12-27-2003, 12:39 PM   #4 (permalink)
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And how do you propose to achieve peace?

Try singing Kumbayah with Mr. Bin Laden. I wish you luck.

War has been and continues to be the one constant of human nature. There will always be someone willing to take up arms in support of their interests, and at that point what is the only response? Idealism does not solve real-world problems.
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Old 12-27-2003, 12:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
follower of the child's crusade?
 
And war cannot for much longer. Human nature must change, or end. We have weapons now that could realistically slaughter 60% of the worlds population in one burst, and biological weapons might have the potential to do more.

How long do you really believe these "limited" or "contained" wards can go on? There is no secret in making an atom bomb, how soon before someone like Bin Laden has one?

One sensible root to peace is for some kind of one world government, many would see the most logical, or in fact inevitable form of this being a communist worlwide revolution, freeing all people from the bonds of capitalism and exploitative economic systems, as well as the constant fear of war.

I don't know how old you are, I am 25, I would say that - if I live a natural life span - I expect to see one or the other in my life, a great war that will decimate the human race, or else the revoltion, and a communist world of peace and democracy.
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Old 12-27-2003, 12:55 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Yes so your suggestion is to sit still and do nothing? Thanks but no thanks. I see you take the European stance, and will only act when the enemy is buring down your neigbhorhood. I assume you learned nothing in history classes.
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Old 12-27-2003, 01:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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My choice is you make peace with people, you share wealth with the poor countries where the terror attacks come from.

Bin Laden may be a madman or a murderer, he is also a product of the social world, and by changing the world we eliminate people like him.
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hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
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Old 12-27-2003, 01:23 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Do you think Bin Laden will just roll over? The man has billions yet the people he pretends to care for dont have food, medicine or educations. You think he acutally cares? Your suggestion is a joke.
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Old 12-27-2003, 01:44 PM   #9 (permalink)
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My understanding is that Bin Laden's personal forture is onlya couple of million? Are you sure he is so rich?

Bin Laden will always be a bigoted and intolerant trouble maker, but better social conditions would mean that less ordinary working men and women follow his message of hate out of desperation.

If America spend as much money helping Afghanistan as they did bombing it, the Taleban wouldnt exist, and Bin Laden would be a religious freak preaching on some street corner somewhere about destroying Israel
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Old 12-27-2003, 01:48 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Bin Laden is a billionair. Your information is as inaccurate as your conclusions. We are rebuilting Iraq right now, spending 87 billion to do so, as you even said in an other post, and Bin Laden is not saying "wow look at that, America has fixed Iraq so that more schools, more water, more freedom, better pay for teachers and police, better equity, than EVER in a nation of Muslims, better lay off and let the solidiers finishe their work"
Instead he called many of his people to move to Iraq so they can cause more damage. This is a fact. So your prediction of Bin Laden is proven to be wrong. But something tells me that you will just ignore this.
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Old 12-27-2003, 02:19 PM   #11 (permalink)
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And BTW...the social conditions are not because of what we have done to these nations,
but what they have done to themselves.
The social structures there are set up so only a proportional few have most of the nations money,
and ALL of the power & influence.

This is throughout the Middle East, including some of our "allies"
such as Saudi Arabia...where most of the terrorists from 9-11 came from.

So the nations of the west pushing money over there is going to do no good,
until their OWN social system change by their OWN leaders.
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Old 12-27-2003, 02:26 PM   #12 (permalink)
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The social conditions that cause the suffering in the East are those caused by capitalism.

They are the same conditions that caused wrected poverty and intolerable cruelty towards the working class in 19th century Britain.

They are the same conditions that caused slavery in the America's

But I fear I am getting off topic again if I go in this direction.

Bin Laden is a corrupt and barbaric man, my point is that in a fair and equal society, if people like Usama do exist, they have no power and no call. That is my point here.

I do believe Bin Laden approved of the WTC attacks, I am not convinced he actively arranged them.

It is not necessarily American national policy to exploit Asia and the mid East, it is the restless and relentless logic of capitalism.
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Old 12-27-2003, 02:55 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Because we all know that communism has done a bang up job of creating a great quality of life for its citizens *rolls eyes*. Look, UBL is not a result of a "capitalist oppressive government" he is the result of a perverted form of a peaceful religion. Yeah, we had slavery, but we managed to fix that little aberration, just as the Anti-Communist Revolutionaries in 1991 fixed that prolonged version of slavery in Russia. Communism is a noble goal, everyone gets the same and everyone is happy. However, reality doesn't allow for this because some megalomaniac will always take advantage of the Revolutionaries and use it for his own personal political gain.
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Old 12-27-2003, 02:56 PM   #14 (permalink)
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um

Are you aware that the free market is the most effiecient market? There is a reason that communism failed in the USSR. There is a reason that captialism did not fail in the USA. Capitalism is not the cause of the troubles in the middle east. The cause of the troubles is dictatorships that use fear and religion to keep people down. By keeping people undereducated and poor the dictatorships can keep their stranglehold on a nation.

There are a few things that really contribute to America's success as a nation. Probably the two most important are the free market and the free press.
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Old 12-27-2003, 02:58 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
Human nature must change, or end.
Hehe, I think this sums up why anything you would try would fail.

We have our nature, its what we are, and no radical like yourself can ever hope to change it. Its been tried, it failed.
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:05 PM   #16 (permalink)
follower of the child's crusade?
 
No socialist or communist nation state has ever existed in the modern world.

The closest were some of the native American tribes, who lived in peace and harmony with nature until being brutally attacked by Europeans. (I know not all the tribes were peaceful, but many were)

the USSR, Cuba, China, are not communist countries, they are state capitalist.
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:10 PM   #17 (permalink)
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LOL The Native Americans did not exist in harmony. That is a popular lie. The Hopi were slaughtered before whitie showed up. The Anasazi built homes in a mountain to make it easier to defend against neighboring warring tribes, that were not whites. Many Eastern tribes were too busy fighting eacht other before whitey showed up, andeven teamed up with whites to slaughter their red enemies. Your information is very very inaccurate. So far EVERY post you made is inaccureate, Slaine.
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:18 PM   #18 (permalink)
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OK then, back to the topic at hand that I seem to have help veer away from. Strange Famous, I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here. Sure, UBL comes from a rich family and has made his money share in the free market, but that didn't turn him terrorist. There have been distinct documents, and trails between the 19 and UBL, the 9/11 attacks are exactly the modus opperendi of UBL, simultaneous attacks, willingness to kill anyone (including Muslims) to kill Americans, and the use of either Arabian Peninsula natives or former Mujahideen from Afghanistan as the expendables. 9/11 could have only been committed by UBL because he is the only one with the kind of infrastructure needed to carry out these sort of attacks. I still fail to see what you are trying to get across to us.
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:21 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I guess all those documents that show the links with Atta Mohammend to Al Queda and the money trail as long as the confirmations of all those capured in raids and in Afganistan are all forged and lies by the US? Man you are a riot...

Do you work for Howard Dean?
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:22 PM   #20 (permalink)
follower of the child's crusade?
 
That the only infrastructure those attacks REQUIRE is a gang of 20 guys with knives and a couple of flying lessons between them. It didnt NEED money, power, terror contacts... it just needed suicidal people who hated a given enemy. UBL isnt the only person who could carry it out, any loose knit cell of 20 deviants could have done it.
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hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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Old 12-27-2003, 03:24 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Again ignoring the mountain of evidence to draw the wrong conclusions....
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:28 PM   #22 (permalink)
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The heck it didn't require money. Flying lessons don't come too cheaply, neither do airline tickets. It wasn't just a "couple" of flying lessons, Atta and Co. got quite a bit of hours in flight training. They needed fake IDs and passports, among other things. The timing of it requires some work and research and some smarts to do this. Atta and Co. took "vacations" to Afghanistan to train for six months as terrorists. You seem to be oversimplifying here when it in fact requires a lot more than what you think. To get some of the best trained special forces in the world, all you really NEED is some guns and a few soldiers, but that doesn't include all of the work necessary to do so does it?
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"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:41 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Well, its true I dont know of any evidence, which is why I asked if there actually was any.

I dont see why someone needs 6 months training to know how to kill themselves by flying a plane into a building.
__________________
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for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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Old 12-27-2003, 03:55 PM   #24 (permalink)
Junkie
 
flying a jumbo jet isn't exactly easy, neither is navigating a jumbo jet to a specific area. Running it into a building may seem easy but once you factor in wind and such it isn't so easy. Crashing a plain is easy hitting a target with a plane is not so easy.
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:59 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
Well, its true I dont know of any evidence, which is why I asked if there actually was any.

I dont see why someone needs 6 months training to know how to kill themselves by flying a plane into a building.

Just cause YOUdont see it, doesnt mean it didnt happen. How about you do some research before you post anymore, you are embaressing yourself.
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Old 12-27-2003, 04:21 PM   #26 (permalink)
Insane
 
He is certainly not embarassing himself. His insights into the root causes of 9/11 are much more intelligent than the whole "they're just evil" mentality that I see from many here. It's about time people started holding the West accountable for its actions around the world and how it affects the poor and exploited. Can you possibly imagine what so much of the world's population deals with because of the US "free market"? Is it so surprising that from time to time these people will strike back? Instead we focus on religion and good guys vs. bad guys.

What's important to realize though is that the US decided on destroying Afghanistan long before any of these money trails and "terrorist" connections were revealed. People spend all their time trying to cure the symptoms instead of looking at the root causes behind them.

I'm not advocating a communist society, but Strange Famous is right, we're heading down a path that will lead either to change or the end of the species. Can you imagine the destruction the US will wreak when its hegemonic status finally comes into question? They'll go down shooting, that's for sure, and with thousands of nukes you'll have to excuse me if I'm a tad nervous. I'd hate to think what would happen if Israel felt similarly threatened.

War is not part of our nature, it is merely one way of solving problems that has been very effective for the victor. It's not absolute in this world, and not all societies have resorted to it.

Thank you for your contribution, Strange Famous.

SLM3
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Old 12-27-2003, 04:27 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Wow another post without one shred of proof.

Can you please explain to me SLM how we caused 9 11 to happen? I really want to know what America did so they can be blamed for this tragedy?

Please, also, provide the documentation to back up your claim that America wanted to Destroy Afganistan before 9 11 happend. Ok I am waiting.

Please provide us with the evidence that we are heading to the end of the species as well.

You made alot of serious claims in your post SLM and not one of them is backed up by even a modicum of proof. No wonder you backed up Strange Famous, he does the same exact thing.
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Old 12-27-2003, 04:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I would be interested to hear of a society that did not have to resort to war...
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Old 12-27-2003, 04:43 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Endymon32
[B]Wow another post without one shred of proof.

Can you please explain to me SLM how we caused 9 11 to happen? I really want to know what America did so they can be blamed for this tragedy?
Tragedies like this occur all over the world and have been for a long time. The US has directly and indirectly supported dictators and killing squads for decades. Many states are crippled due to US sponsored SAP's that have created one product econmies that drain funds out of the developing state. The US economy is propped up on the backs of the poor and the helpless. Is it so hard to understand why there is a lot of resentment towards the US in the world? Is it so hard to even consider the idea that perhaps these people might lash back?

Quote:
Please, also, provide the documentation to back up your claim that America wanted to Destroy Afganistan before 9 11 happend. Ok I am waiting.
I never said anything of the sort.

Quote:
Please provide us with the evidence that we are heading to the end of the species as well.
Well, I'm just going by the number of people killed by war in the 20th century. The trend is a scary one, to me atleast. Perhaps you're more comfortable with it. However, we're no longer playing with canons and bayonets anymore. Did the Cold War and mutually assured destruction theory teach you nothing about how easily we could wipe ourselves off the face of the Earth?

How do you see things playing out in the future, at the rate we're going?


SLM3
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Old 12-27-2003, 04:50 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Interesting point on the number of people killed in the 20th C., SLM3, but as a percentage of total population it is the least disasterous century in our history...
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:06 PM   #31 (permalink)
Insane
 
But do you think the tools of destruction are progressing at the same rate as the population? In the 19th Century the security of the species as a whole was note threatened by the weapons of a few powers. Today it most certainly is.

You see, I don't think there's a correlation between population and how much damage we can do before it's considered worse or less worse than any other era. We have the means to destroy the planet right now, and with the development of those means came the mentality to somehow justify it.

As we speak, initial development is underway on tactical nukes. This flies right in the face of the treaties signed banning such practices. Russia, in predictable response, has become nervous and is now questioning whether they should be conducting similar research. Is this the path we want to head down?

SLM3
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:10 PM   #32 (permalink)
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We have had tac-nukes for years, as have the Russians, Brits, French, etc.

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Old 12-27-2003, 05:13 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:19 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLM3
Tragedies like this occur all over the world and have been for a long time. The US has directly and indirectly supported dictators and killing squads for decades. Many states are crippled due to US sponsored SAP's that have created one product econmies that drain funds out of the developing state. The US economy is propped up on the backs of the poor and the helpless. Is it so hard to understand why there is a lot of resentment towards the US in the world? Is it so hard to even consider the idea that perhaps these people might lash back?




Well, I'm just going by the number of people killed by war in the 20th century. The trend is a scary one, to me atleast. Perhaps you're more comfortable with it. However, we're no longer playing with canons and bayonets anymore. Did the Cold War and mutually assured destruction theory teach you nothing about how easily we could wipe ourselves off the face of the Earth?

How do you see things playing out in the future, at the rate we're going?


SLM3
Your first paragraph doesnt do anything to tell me why America is responciple for 9 11. Again, I want you to provide me with proof that my nation killed 4000 people who just want to go to work. You make a wild inflamitory claim, and I DEMAND that you back up your claim or apologise. Some lame ass screed is not proof. I assume you have documentation to back up your absoultly ridiculous claim?

Remember the people killed in war was a direct result of leftist political parties doing bad things. Such as Communist and socialist expansion and Nation Socialits. I assume had there been no wars to stop this leftist terror, you would be happy?
And remember that the nations of USSR, Cambodia, and CHina killed more people during PEACE time than the wars of the 20th century did.
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:30 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:30 PM   #36 (permalink)
Insane
 
Quote:
Originally posted by debaser
We have had tac-nukes for years, as have the Russians, Brits, French, etc.


I'm speaking of these new "bunker buster" nukes that Bush just allocated research money to look into.


SLM3
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:38 PM   #37 (permalink)
Insane
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Endymon32
Your first paragraph doesnt do anything to tell me why America is responciple for 9 11. Again, I want you to provide me with proof that my nation killed 4000 people who just want to go to work. You make a wild inflamitory claim, and I DEMAND that you back up your claim or apologise. Some lame ass screed is not proof. I assume you have documentation to back up your absoultly ridiculous claim?

Ya know, even the most hawkish of US citizens will atleast acknowledge what happened in Nicaragua, Chile, Lebanon, El Salvador, Laos, Oman, Guatemala, etc, etc, etc. The question isn't whether the US supported or directly killed thousands upon thousands of civilians. The question is whether it was justifiable in a realist sense. If you have no clue what I'm talking about with the above examples, there's really nothing more for us to talk about.


SLM3
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:38 PM   #38 (permalink)
Sir, I have a plan...
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLM3
I'm speaking of these new "bunker buster" nukes that Bush just allocated research money to look into.


SLM3
Oh. I believe the loophole there is that the actual nuclear device is the same as older models, only the delivery method is being revised (ie a bomb that allows for deeper penetration of a hardend target).
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:39 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLM3
I'm speaking of these new "bunker buster" nukes that Bush just allocated research money to look into.


SLM3
People whine over bunkerbusters why? If anything, being able to take out an underground complex with such a weapon would prevent needing an overkill amount of true 'wmds' to do the job.
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:41 PM   #40 (permalink)
Sir, I have a plan...
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
People whine over bunkerbusters why? If anything, being able to take out an underground complex with such a weapon would prevent needing an overkill amount of true 'wmds' to do the job.
People whine because we have signed a treaty saying we are not to develope new nuclear weapons. What they do not understand is what I posted above.
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