High school infringes upon civil liberties - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

seretogis · 12-11-2003, 05:15 PM

Quote:

BRAVE NEW SCHOOLS
Judge: 'Gay'-diversity week violated rights of Christian
Rules in favor of student whose religious views against homosexuality
excluded from program
Posted: December 7, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

A federal judge in Detroit has upheld the constitutional right of a
Christian student to express her religious beliefs in opposition to
homosexuality during her high school's 2002 "Diversity Week" program.

The case involved a federal lawsuit filed by the Thomas More Law
Center, a national public interest law firm, on behalf of student
Betsy Hansen, whose religious views against homosexuality were
censored and excluded from the program held at Ann Arbor's Pioneer
High School.

During the program, Pioneer High School officials prevented Hansen
from expressing her Roman Catholic view on homosexuality at
the "Homosexuality and Religion" panel, and they censored a speech
she was asked to give on the topic, ''What Diversity Means to Me.''

School officials claimed Betsy's religious view toward homosexuality
was a ''negative'' message and would ''water-down'' the ''positive''
religious message that they wanted to convey – that homosexual
behavior is not immoral or sinful.

The federal civil rights lawsuit filed by the Thomas More Law Center
alleged that school officials violated Hansen's constitutional rights
to freedom of speech, free exercise of religion, and the equal
protection of the law. Moreover, the lawsuit alleged that school
officials coerced students to accept the religious belief that
homosexual activity is not immoral or sinful in violation of the
Constitution.

School officials handpicked religious leaders who endorsed the
school's pro-homosexual "religious" belief to sit on the panel, and
they denied Hansen's request to have a panel member who would express
the Roman Catholic belief on homosexuality.

Judge Gerald Rosen's 70-page opinion began with blistering criticism
of the school:

"This case presents the ironic, and unfortunate, paradox of a public
high school celebrating 'diversity' by refusing to permit the
presentation to students of an 'unwelcomed' viewpoint on the topic of
homosexuality and religion, while actively promoting the competing
view. This practice of 'one-way diversity,' unsettling in itself, was
rendered still more troubling-both constitutionally and ethically-by
the fact that the approved viewpoint was, in one manifestation,
presented to students as religious doctrine by six clerics (some in
full garb) quoting from religious scripture. In its other
manifestation, it resulted in the censorship by school administrators
of a student's speech about "what diversity means to me," removing
that portion of the speech in which the student described the
unapproved viewpoint.''

Judge Rosen held that the Ann Arbor Public Schools and several of its
employees violated Hansen's constitutional rights to freedom of
speech and the equal protection of the law. He also concluded that
the school officials violated the Establishment Clause by inviting
the pro-gay clergy to hold a panel on "Homosexuality and Religion."

Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel of the Law Center,
applauded Judge Rosen for his strongly worded opinion, ''Judge Rosen
displayed judicial courage by refusing to bend to the winds of
political correctness, and he decided the case according to the well
established law. This is a tremendous victory for the First Amendment
rights of Christian students and a tremendous defeat for those who
consider public schools as their private platform to advance the
homosexual agenda.''

This seems amazing to me. What the hell reason does a public high shcool have to try to project a positive image of homosexuality? Why are our schools attempting to parent our children, and, more importantly, why are parents letting them do so?

edit: Subject changed, we already know the interests and views of the ACLU when it comes to civil liberties.

edit2: Nevermind, looks like I can't change the thread subject. Mod?

chavos · 12-11-2003, 05:54 PM

Do right wing Christians call the ACLU when they get in trouble? The ALCU can't sue on someone's behalf unless the person asks them to. Mmmkay?

And yeah, despite this girl having a message i think is boneheadly wrong...she should be able to say it in a public school, so long as she doesn't directly incite discrimination. People have their precious right to be totally wrong.

supersix2 · 12-11-2003, 06:20 PM

The whole point of going to school is to learn math, reading, history, and science. I am so sick and tired of them trying to inject political and social views into our minds. Leave it up the students themselves to formulate an opinion. I'm sorry but if my highschool was having some sort of bullshit "Diversity Awareness Week" I would probably call in a bomb threat. That is so ridiculous and such a waste of school time. I spent my years in highschool preparing for college so that once I got to college I would be better able to learn more complicated things so that one day I could fulfill my goal of becoming an engineer. I took advanced classes in highschool so I needed to focus on my studies. When I'm in school all I want to be concerned with was learning the subjects and understanding them. There is no room for Diversity Awareness, classes are short enough and our educational system is in the shitter compared to other countires.

There is a large amount of international students at my college and I've talked to them about their highschool experience. It is completely different than that of the US. They actually spend time on learning required subjects. I have never heard one talk about Diversity Awareness, or Black History Month, or any of that other bullshit that they ram down our throats and public schools. Those students are far more advanced in math and science. Thier classes were on average an hour long mine were a meager 40 minutes. By time class got settled we maybe had a half hour of instruction time.

My whole point is that schooldays are short enough we don't have the time to spend on these bullshit programs that force the political views on people.

pocon1 · 12-11-2003, 06:29 PM

I think if you are going to have a panel on diversity, you need diverse viewpoints. The school got what they deserved. I don't agree with the Catholic Church's view, but it is their right to say what they wish. If you did not want conflict, don't bring up the subject. I am glad that this girl exercised her freedom, even if I don't agree with her.

Kadath · 12-11-2003, 08:47 PM

Honestly, seretogis, what are you trying to prove? You mystify me.

seretogis · 12-11-2003, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kadath
Honestly, seretogis, what are you trying to prove? You mystify me.

My point is that there are examples everywhere of the public education system failing horribly, to the point of infringing on the civil rights of those with opinions that are not politically correct. The ACLU relation is just an attention-getter.

I also wanted to show off my new avatar. Good ol' Natasha.

j8ear · 12-11-2003, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
This seems amazing to me. What the hell reason does a public high shcool have to try to project a positive image of homosexuality? Why are our schools attempting to parent our children, and, more importantly, why are parents letting them do so?

You are one of the few who impresses me immensly whenever you post. Couldn't possibly concur more.

Why are parents letting them do this. Public schools ~become~ the only option because two incomes is required, yet two parents is a luxury. The list could go on. All seem to always be a result of a government entitlement, even 'compeling' or national interest.

I have become so jaded.

Once we cede the responsiblity...it will never be returned.

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
The ALCU can't sue on someone's behalf unless the person asks them to. Mmmkay?

Are you crazy? The ACLU hand picks every single one of the actions it involves itself with. I would venture that most are hand selected for maximun value, and massaged for maximum effect.

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
My ...attention-getter.

I ...Natasha.

Infringing on the civil rights is exactly what happens to unpopular points of view. Be it whatever, big business campaign finance reform or signs in public parks.

It's a popularity contest.

I don't do to well at those.

Mystified myself.

-b

HarmlessRabbit · 12-11-2003, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
My point is that there are examples everywhere of the public education system failing horribly, to the point of infringing on the civil rights of those with opinions that are not politically correct. The ACLU relation is just an attention-getter.

I also wanted to show off my new avatar. Good ol' Natasha.

I agree with your point, but I agree that your title was misleading and tends to lead the discussion astray.

Free speech is free speech. If Cincinnati wants to put a Nativity scene in their town square, they must accept the Klan's cross. If this school wants to express opinions about homosexuals, then they should accept the full diversity of opinions about homosexuals and give this girl her opportunity.

I could see something like this being a really good learning experience for students, rather than some shallow "we love gays!" feel good festival. Students would learn a hell of a lot more if gays, people who sympathize with gays, and people who don't like gays could all get together and talk to each other using teachers as mediators.

chavos · 12-11-2003, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Are you crazy? The ACLU hand picks every single one of the actions it involves itself with. I would venture that most are hand selected for maximun value, and massaged for maximum effect.

Wtf? The ACLU must have the cooperation of the plantiff to directly litigate a case. The ACLU does not take every case it is asked to help with, but every case it takes, it is asked to help with. Get it?

Why didn't the ACLU sue on this person's behalf? Because they didn't ask the ACLU. They asked the Thomas More Center.

So yeah...you've got a point, seretogis, but change your title, yeah?

Phaenx · 12-11-2003, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
Also, take a look at the topic -- where is the so-called "American Civil Liberties Union" when this girls' civil liberties are being infringed upon?

Beating up an elderly nun behind a bar.

The ACLU is a little too left-wing to care about the ignorant savages who persecute homosexuals. Whatever, they can do what they want, hopefully people will wise up and realise the tail doesn't wag the dog.

These schools better get their act together as well, in an effort to celebrate diversity and freedom they're banning Christianity. Good job. Put the nativity scene and minorah up during christmas/honakah time, and the muslim crescent during ramadon if they want. Also, stop fucking banning WORDS. If someone is offended by a symbol or a word then good, cry. If the ACLU shows up, kick them in the nuts and let them cry too.

alkaloid · 12-12-2003, 05:28 AM

I agree with supersix2 that the core mission of the school should be teaching the students and preparing them for the complex world. But holding diversity week or something like that does not necessarily diminish that mission. I also think students should be taught to think about moral values. It is stupid to teach the kid 300 years worth of cumulative knowledge of physics in 2 semesters yet ignore thousands of years' worth of knowledge and ponderings about morality, human mind and the nature, and expect the student to arrived at their world view just based on their parents' ramblings and prejudices, and the TV.

Conclamo Ludus · 12-12-2003, 06:15 AM

I couldn't agree more with Harmless Rabbit. If they want the kids to learn something from an event like this, they need to come together and have a dialogue about it, from all kinds of different perspectives. How can they have a "religion and homosexuality" panel without having a voice of dissent too. The kids won't learn anything from a we-love-gays-everyone-is-happy event. The kids that disagree will tune it out and learn nothing, it will just persist a feeling of cynicism in their heads, and kids don't need more reasons to be cynical.

supersix2 · 12-12-2003, 06:31 AM

I don't think it is the place of an educational system to generate opinions for students. I think that if the students want to have an opinion on something or care enough about it they will find out on their own.
My high school, fortunatley didn't have any of this diversity crap. We never had any school programs to teach us about moral values. However, I along with many of the people I know developed our moral values and opinions the old fashioned way. Ilistened to other people, including friends, teachers, parents, relatives, neighbors, the news. Whever something caught my interest I reasearched it by reading about it or going on the internet. Because everyone developed opinions of his or her own we actually had a larger diversity of opinions. Diversity is not having a class that everyone has to take to teach you about moral values. That makes everyone think the same.
The more I learn and grow the more my political views and opinions change. There was once a time when I supported the death penalty. After reading some articles and watching some shows and just growing as a person I realized how ridiculous it is. There was once a time when I thought homosexuals were wrong. But then I went to college and met some and I realzied that they aren't bad people.
I know that my system of developing opinions might be a little idealistic but that is the way it used to be and still should be. If people want to continue to be ignorant on certain issues they have the right to be. No one should force them to attend classes or workshops on diversity awareness. Ultimatley you can't change people's opinions and a lot of times these workshops and classes create a bigger gap in diversity by creating animosity.

Conclamo Ludus · 12-12-2003, 06:34 AM

Good point supersix! You can't celebrate diversity by pretending we're all the same.

Lebell · 12-12-2003, 09:05 AM

Bravo, Judge Rosen.

I now have a new phrase, "one-way diversity" to use.

smooth · 12-12-2003, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by alkaloid
I agree with supersix2 that the core mission of the school should be teaching the students and preparing them for the complex world. But holding diversity week or something like that does not necessarily diminish that mission. I also think students should be taught to think about moral values. It is stupid to teach the kid 300 years worth of cumulative knowledge of physics in 2 semesters yet ignore thousands of years' worth of knowledge and ponderings about morality, human mind and the nature, and expect the student to arrived at their world view just based on their parents' ramblings and prejudices, and the TV.

I agree with your point that ignoring thousands of years of philosophical and ethical musings is counterproductive to creating educated, articulate, and well-rounded citizens. We rely on morals much more than our math skills each day--there isn't any reason not to teach the underpinnings of what many scholars have thought about in the past centuries.

I don't think this rises to teaching people "opinions." People form their opinions based on information--but they can't form intelligent or informed opinions without the tools to do so: forms of logic, moral instruction (that is, methods to reach a moral conclusion, a la Kant or Mill, etc.), and an understanding and acceptance that differences of opinion exist (and why).

That said, without the context of why this girl was prevented from participating, I would agree that she should have been able to express her viewpoint. Not, as some have suggested, because I don't care that she would have offended people; I think she should not offend people, and I find that people often express themselves in ways to purposefully incite anger towards their viewpoints. I think the person offering an alternate viewpoint should do so eloquently and respectfully. Hopefully effectual dialog can follow.

supersix2 · 12-12-2003, 06:55 PM

I definatley agree that the girl should have been allowed to express her opinion. I further agree that whenever anyone is expressing an opinion on a controversial issue it is important to be accurate, polite, and proper. There is no need to offend anyone when presenting an opinion. Opinions shouldn't offend anyone as long as they are presented respectfully and they are accurate. What I mean is that the opinion is based off of much reflection and research.
For example. A bad way to state an opinion on the death penalty would be to say something like "Any who supports the death penalty is evil and a pig headed idiot."
Obviously that is insulting to the people on the other side.
The proper way
"I don't support the death penalty because I feel it is barbaic and uneccessary." Then proceed to list some reasons why the death penalty is cruel and unusual.

I have no problem arguing with people as long as they don't resort to name calling and personal attacks.

mystmarimatt · 12-17-2003, 11:57 PM

yeah...this is an interesting case, while i'll disagree with her viewpoint, i can't bar her from saying it, unless violence is incited because of it, but yeah.

seriously, if you're going to have a diversity week, much less a PANEL on the subject, it's ridiculous to restrict her view point, because it is a rather a crux of the matter, isn't it?

it would be just as a easy to bring in a liberal christian to counter her or something, but to full out bar it is pretty harsh.

KellyC · 12-18-2003, 09:08 PM

This is wrong on so many level. What ever happen to seperation of church and state? why is she allowed to express her religious view in a PUBLIC SCHOOL? that alone is already against the constitution.
Thinking of anti-gay religious view from catholic church, it reminded me of how those damn Talibans wrongfully interpreted the Koran and abuses other people, I can't seem to find any disticntion between the two (wrong interpretation of what actually is being taught). Jesus teaches to love other people but not gays? Gays are not people?

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-18-2003, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KellyC
This is wrong on so many level. What ever happen to seperation of church and state? why is she allowed to express her religious view in a PUBLIC SCHOOL? that alone is already against the constitution.
Thinking of anti-gay religious view from catholic church, it reminded me of how those damn Talibans wrongfully interpreted the Koran and abuses other people, I can't seem to find any disticntion between the two (wrong interpretation of what actually is being taught). Jesus teaches to love other people but not gays? Gays are not people?

This is off base of so many levels.

1st) Seperation of Church and state was an Idea of Jefferson's (correct me if I'm wrong but there was a letter and he was the one who made reference to the wall of seperation), the constitution only stipulates that government is to make no endorsing religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Secondly considering the whole idea of the forum that the SCHOOL was HOSTING was "homosexuality and religion" the girl was not the one out of line.
2nd) Comparing people who don't agree with homosexuality to the TALIBAN is probably the most stupid out of line comparisons I have ever heard. Are people not allowed to disagree with lifestyles and actions that they view as wrong? I must be buddy buddy with Mullah Omar and OBL because I think fucking animals is wrong and disgusting.
3rd) What are the Catholic's wrongfully interpreting like the Taliban? Granted the church of old has been out of line and down right evil themselves regarding many things of THE PAST, there is no misinterpretation of the bible going on. Yes Jesus called you to love your fellow man, you can disagree with someones lifestyle and not hate them, or in the case of your retarded Taliban comparison put them to death. The church's view on homosexuality is as such, it is not wrong to be homosexual as it is something you cannot help, acting on it however is where the sin lies. God calls people to love homosexuals, as he does all "sinners", I'm a sinner, your a sinner, we are all born with dignity and we all have a worth, being gay doesn't change that and if anyone thinks otherwise they are idiots and not True christians or catholics.

So in the future please keep your ignorant Catholic bashing to a minimum, because your assumptions and comparisons are not only wrong and ignorant, but as a catholic myself, I take offense to it.

KellyC · 12-20-2003, 12:36 AM

omg...now i feel like such an idiot..thanks for umm..opening the light for me...as for people who will bash me for my stupid earlier post..u save save it..1 is enough for me

SLM3 · 12-20-2003, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
This is off base of so many levels.

1st) Seperation of Church and state was an Idea of Jefferson's (correct me if I'm wrong but there was a letter and he was the one who made reference to the wall of seperation), the constitution only stipulates that government is to make no endorsing religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Secondly considering the whole idea of the forum that the SCHOOL was HOSTING was "homosexuality and religion" the girl was not the one out of line.
2nd) Comparing people who don't agree with homosexuality to the TALIBAN is probably the most stupid out of line comparisons I have ever heard. Are people not allowed to disagree with lifestyles and actions that they view as wrong? I must be buddy buddy with Mullah Omar and OBL because I think fucking animals is wrong and disgusting.
3rd) What are the Catholic's wrongfully interpreting like the Taliban? Granted the church of old has been out of line and down right evil themselves regarding many things of THE PAST, there is no misinterpretation of the bible going on. Yes Jesus called you to love your fellow man, you can disagree with someones lifestyle and not hate them, or in the case of your retarded Taliban comparison put them to death. The church's view on homosexuality is as such, it is not wrong to be homosexual as it is something you cannot help, acting on it however is where the sin lies. God calls people to love homosexuals, as he does all "sinners", I'm a sinner, your a sinner, we are all born with dignity and we all have a worth, being gay doesn't change that and if anyone thinks otherwise they are idiots and not True christians or catholics.

So in the future please keep your ignorant Catholic bashing to a minimum, because your assumptions and comparisons are not only wrong and ignorant, but as a catholic myself, I take offense to it.

I wonder how many gays (and heteros) take offense to you equating homosexuality with "fucking animals". Perhaps that was not your intent but that's the way I read it.

So, Catholicism preaches that homosexuality itself isn't bad but the act is? Is it really fair to make a distinction? Saying one thing is ok but the act used in order to show it is not? Maybe it's my fault, using concepts such as fairness in a discussion on religion.

SLM3

seretogis · 12-20-2003, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLM3
I wonder how many gays (and heteros) take offense to you equating homosexuality with "fucking animals". Perhaps that was not your intent but that's the way I read it.

He wasn't equating homosexuality with beastiality, he was simply pointing out how the homosexuality->Taliban association was ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally posted by SLM3
So, Catholicism preaches that homosexuality itself isn't bad but the act is? Is it really fair to make a distinction? Saying one thing is ok but the act used in order to show it is not? Maybe it's my fault, using concepts such as fairness in a discussion on religion.

A religion has no need whatsoever to be "fair" in judgement to a group of individuals that participate in acts of which it does not approve. Just as there are heterosexuals who have given up sex of any form for their religion, I am sure there are homosexuals who have made the same oath to their god(s).

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-20-2003, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLM3
I wonder how many gays (and heteros) take offense to you equating homosexuality with "fucking animals". Perhaps that was not your intent but that's the way I read it.

Seretogis hit it for me, no need to respond here.

Quote:

So, Catholicism preaches that homosexuality itself isn't bad but the act is? Is it really fair to make a distinction? Saying one thing is ok but the act used in order to show it is not? Maybe it's my fault, using concepts such as fairness in a discussion on religion.

SLM3

Follow the line of reasoning if you please to enlighten yourself on this subject, realize these truths of the catholic religion.

1) Homosexuality is genetic, it can't be helped.
2) the act of sodomy is equated to sex. since the sanctity of marriage is a defined as a loving bond between a man and woman, the only place where any sex is not sinful (remember all sex outside of marriage is a sin, gay or straight alike).
3) Since homosexual unions are not recognized as an acceptable convenant between man and his god, said homosexual sex would be sinful <<<< thats what married people do, make babies remember dating is for mating

12-11-2003, 08:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Honestly, seretogis, what are you trying to prove? You mystify me. __________________ it's quiet in here

12-12-2003, 06:15 AM	#12 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	I couldn't agree more with Harmless Rabbit. If they want the kids to learn something from an event like this, they need to come together and have a dialogue about it, from all kinds of different perspectives. How can they have a "religion and homosexuality" panel without having a voice of dissent too. The kids won't learn anything from a we-love-gays-everyone-is-happy event. The kids that disagree will tune it out and learn nothing, it will just persist a feeling of cynicism in their heads, and kids don't need more reasons to be cynical. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

12-12-2003, 06:34 AM	#14 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	Good point supersix! You can't celebrate diversity by pretending we're all the same. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

12-12-2003, 09:05 AM	#15 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Bravo, Judge Rosen. I now have a new phrase, "one-way diversity" to use. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

12-17-2003, 11:57 PM	#18 (permalink)
mystmarimatt Omnipotent Ruler Of The Tiny Universe In My Mind Location: Oreegawn	yeah...this is an interesting case, while i'll disagree with her viewpoint, i can't bar her from saying it, unless violence is incited because of it, but yeah. seriously, if you're going to have a diversity week, much less a PANEL on the subject, it's ridiculous to restrict her view point, because it is a rather a crux of the matter, isn't it? it would be just as a easy to bring in a liberal christian to counter her or something, but to full out bar it is pretty harsh. __________________ Words of Wisdom: If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane. Last edited by mystmarimatt; 12-18-2003 at 12:01 AM..

12-11-2003, 05:54 PM	#2 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	Do right wing Christians call the ACLU when they get in trouble? The ALCU can't sue on someone's behalf unless the person asks them to. Mmmkay? And yeah, despite this girl having a message i think is boneheadly wrong...she should be able to say it in a public school, so long as she doesn't directly incite discrimination. People have their precious right to be totally wrong.

12-11-2003, 06:20 PM	#3 (permalink)
supersix2 Insane Location: Houston	The whole point of going to school is to learn math, reading, history, and science. I am so sick and tired of them trying to inject political and social views into our minds. Leave it up the students themselves to formulate an opinion. I'm sorry but if my highschool was having some sort of bullshit "Diversity Awareness Week" I would probably call in a bomb threat. That is so ridiculous and such a waste of school time. I spent my years in highschool preparing for college so that once I got to college I would be better able to learn more complicated things so that one day I could fulfill my goal of becoming an engineer. I took advanced classes in highschool so I needed to focus on my studies. When I'm in school all I want to be concerned with was learning the subjects and understanding them. There is no room for Diversity Awareness, classes are short enough and our educational system is in the shitter compared to other countires. There is a large amount of international students at my college and I've talked to them about their highschool experience. It is completely different than that of the US. They actually spend time on learning required subjects. I have never heard one talk about Diversity Awareness, or Black History Month, or any of that other bullshit that they ram down our throats and public schools. Those students are far more advanced in math and science. Thier classes were on average an hour long mine were a meager 40 minutes. By time class got settled we maybe had a half hour of instruction time. My whole point is that schooldays are short enough we don't have the time to spend on these bullshit programs that force the political views on people.

12-11-2003, 06:29 PM	#4 (permalink)
pocon1 Banned	I think if you are going to have a panel on diversity, you need diverse viewpoints. The school got what they deserved. I don't agree with the Catholic Church's view, but it is their right to say what they wish. If you did not want conflict, don't bring up the subject. I am glad that this girl exercised her freedom, even if I don't agree with her.

12-12-2003, 05:28 AM	#11 (permalink)
alkaloid Dead Inside Location: East Coast, USA	I agree with supersix2 that the core mission of the school should be teaching the students and preparing them for the complex world. But holding diversity week or something like that does not necessarily diminish that mission. I also think students should be taught to think about moral values. It is stupid to teach the kid 300 years worth of cumulative knowledge of physics in 2 semesters yet ignore thousands of years' worth of knowledge and ponderings about morality, human mind and the nature, and expect the student to arrived at their world view just based on their parents' ramblings and prejudices, and the TV.

12-12-2003, 06:31 AM	#13 (permalink)
supersix2 Insane Location: Houston	I don't think it is the place of an educational system to generate opinions for students. I think that if the students want to have an opinion on something or care enough about it they will find out on their own. My high school, fortunatley didn't have any of this diversity crap. We never had any school programs to teach us about moral values. However, I along with many of the people I know developed our moral values and opinions the old fashioned way. Ilistened to other people, including friends, teachers, parents, relatives, neighbors, the news. Whever something caught my interest I reasearched it by reading about it or going on the internet. Because everyone developed opinions of his or her own we actually had a larger diversity of opinions. Diversity is not having a class that everyone has to take to teach you about moral values. That makes everyone think the same. The more I learn and grow the more my political views and opinions change. There was once a time when I supported the death penalty. After reading some articles and watching some shows and just growing as a person I realized how ridiculous it is. There was once a time when I thought homosexuals were wrong. But then I went to college and met some and I realzied that they aren't bad people. I know that my system of developing opinions might be a little idealistic but that is the way it used to be and still should be. If people want to continue to be ignorant on certain issues they have the right to be. No one should force them to attend classes or workshops on diversity awareness. Ultimatley you can't change people's opinions and a lot of times these workshops and classes create a bigger gap in diversity by creating animosity.

12-12-2003, 06:55 PM	#17 (permalink)
supersix2 Insane Location: Houston	I definatley agree that the girl should have been allowed to express her opinion. I further agree that whenever anyone is expressing an opinion on a controversial issue it is important to be accurate, polite, and proper. There is no need to offend anyone when presenting an opinion. Opinions shouldn't offend anyone as long as they are presented respectfully and they are accurate. What I mean is that the opinion is based off of much reflection and research. For example. A bad way to state an opinion on the death penalty would be to say something like "Any who supports the death penalty is evil and a pig headed idiot." Obviously that is insulting to the people on the other side. The proper way "I don't support the death penalty because I feel it is barbaic and uneccessary." Then proceed to list some reasons why the death penalty is cruel and unusual. I have no problem arguing with people as long as they don't resort to name calling and personal attacks.

12-18-2003, 09:08 PM	#19 (permalink)
KellyC Comment or else!! Location: Home sweet home	This is wrong on so many level. What ever happen to seperation of church and state? why is she allowed to express her religious view in a PUBLIC SCHOOL? that alone is already against the constitution. Thinking of anti-gay religious view from catholic church, it reminded me of how those damn Talibans wrongfully interpreted the Koran and abuses other people, I can't seem to find any disticntion between the two (wrong interpretation of what actually is being taught). Jesus teaches to love other people but not gays? Gays are not people? __________________ Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe? Me: Shit happens. Last edited by KellyC; 12-20-2003 at 12:33 AM..

12-20-2003, 12:36 AM	#21 (permalink)
KellyC Comment or else!! Location: Home sweet home	omg...now i feel like such an idiot..thanks for umm..opening the light for me...as for people who will bash me for my stupid earlier post..u save save it..1 is enough for me __________________ Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe? Me: Shit happens.