Liquor Dealer

Now that this thing is drawing to a close there is change in the air. Some nations are going to be rewarded for their actions in the recent past while others are about to get bitch slapped. Saudi Arabia has accomplished what the Arab world has been demanding. They will soon have no US militray presence. Why? because we no longer need to have a presence there. The threat no longer exists. Qatar is the apparent relocation point of choice. How much money is US militray presence worth? Wait a short time and you'll find out what the value of having a large military outpost really is to some of these countries. Is Germany getting ready to squeal like a stuck pig? Is Turkey getting ready to join them? The US military is getting ready to make a major realignment of assets. Bases all over Europe are getting ready to be relocated. Old Europe, except for probably the one airbase in Germany, is probably getting ready to watch the billions of dollars it takes to maintain our foreign military bases move to a new locale. While some of you are saying that they are saying goodbye and good riddance you are going to be surprised at the screams that accompany the closing of these bases. We hear only the isolated incidents of discontent when someone in the military gets sideways with civilian law enforcement on Guam or somewhere - They do not squeal nearly as loud as they would if the US up and said fine! We'll get out! How much is US presence worth. Let me give you a for instance - A carrier battlegroup pulls into Hong Kong, Singapore, Brisbane, any port in the world for a weekend. How much money comes down that gangplank? A liberty call for a carrier battle group leaves millions and millions of dollars in the economy of where ever! It does this with a 24 or 48 hour stop. What does a major permanent base leave in a countries economy in a years time? I have no idea but if you'll give it a month, I'll bet you will be able to find figures from all over the world being spouted - when it is shut off. Old Europe has chosen to do what they did for all sorts of reasons, most probably devious and to protect their own ass. They will miss us when we are gone.

They will miss us even more when they start trying to build up there own military to provide the protection they enjoyed with the US being there.

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Lebell

I think that is a very good and often overlooked observation, LD. People in the US rarely think about the economic impact of having a large US base in a foreign country, especially if that country is a 2nd or 3rd world country.

I agree 100% that there will be some relocations and some serious squeels.

About time, IMO.

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The_Dude

what's the point of these bases? the cold war is over.


all this money that's used to keep maintaining these high level bases could be used in local projects (even tax-cuts!!)

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boatin

Couldn't agree more! Shut em down, and let em squeal. Americans are almost always good to have around, they will miss the people/soldiers.

Don't know if they will miss the political fallout, but they'll miss the cash.

I sure don't know why we still have bases all over...

Liquor Dealer

Some sorta' mindless drivle over power bases - balance of power - trivial shit like that.

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crewsor

Yeah, L.D., if theres any justice in this world, paybacks gonna be a bitch. I can't wait.

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Cynthetiq

If you'd like to know the impact... look at the Philippines with the closing of Clark Airbase and Subic Naval Base. There were profound impacts on the local economy. Now that FEDex stepped in it's alleviated some of it, but not all.

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boatin

edit: I responded to sarcasm with sarcasm. I'm eliminating that, because I want to do better:

Here is the list of places we have Military Bases. There may have been some changes in the last couple of years, but it's probably still pretty accurate:

1. Afghanistan
2. American Samoa
3. Antigua
4. Aruba
5. Australia
6. Austria
7. Bahama Islands
8. Bahrain
9. Belgium
10. Bosnia
11. Bulgaria
12. Canada
13. Colombia
14. Cuba
15. Curaçao
16. Denmark
17. Ecuador
18. El Salvador
19. France
20. Germany
21. Greece
22. Greenland
23. Guam
24. Honduras
25. Hong Kong
26. Iceland
27. Indian Ocean
(Diego Garcia)
28. Indonesia
29. Italy
30. Japan
31. Johnston Atoll
32. Korea
33. Kosovo
34. Kuwait
35. Kwajalein Atoll
36. Kyrgyzstan
37. Luxembourg
38. Netherlands
39. New Zealand
40. Norway
41. Oman
42. Pakistan
43. Peru
44. Portugal
45. Puerto Rico
46. Qatar
47. Saudi Arabia
48. Singapore
49. Spain
50. St. Helena
51. Tajikistan
52. Turkey
53. United Arab
Republic (Egypt)
54. United Kingdom
55. United States (I'll grant that this one is pretty justified)
56. Uzbekistan
57. Venezuela
58. Virgin Islands
59. Wake Island

Source: U.S. Department of Defense, Base Structure Report Fiscal Year 2001; Los Angeles Times, January 6, 2002; New York Times, January 9, 2001

And there are 20 Army bases in Germany alone. That list is just countries, not number of bases.

Now, I'll grant you that it might serve our interests to have some bases around the world. But given that we just mobilized and won a war, without messing with those bases, I don't see the need to have so many, at such a cost.

Unless you want to buy what the people at NewAmericanCentury.org are selling.

Insert Luxomborg jokes here.

Phaenx

My guess is that it's for if we get into the situation where we're fighting someone and need to have a nearby base of some sort, I think this is how one goes about getting them. You could ask a military official or take a guess yourself, but lets not forget we have the best military on the planet, ever. If they think we should be somewhere then it's probably a good idea that we be there.

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KillerYoda

Geez, that base list was long. Is anyone starting to worry that the bombs that end the world will have the star-spangled banner stamped on them? Not even from war, but a glitch or something.

And to stay on topic...

Maybe we'll reward the people who supported us by not invading them.

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Phaenx

That's how it works.

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

Dragonlich

Hey, Liquor Dealer, Here's a thought: drop the Rumsfeld crap about "Old Europe". It's just silly. There is no Old Europe, there's only France and Germany opposing the Iraq war. We in the Netherlands, in your supposed "Old Europe", supported the war. The UK and Spain, in the same "Old Europe" did that too, and the first send a lot of troops to help you. Other countries here in "Old Europe" have supported you too, some more vocal than others.

It's nice to have a few bases in that "New Europe" because those countries are closer to some hotspots in the world. Just don't assume it'll be that great there; they don't have quite the modern infrastructure you're used to... Besides, you'd still need bases all over Old Europe, as distribution points to your pretty much land-locked "New Europe".

If it's going to be payback time, I'd say you should look at the few countries that truly opposed the war. And you can't even hurt them too much, because you might need them as friends later on... Well, except France; you can kick their arse for all I care.

Liquor Dealer

A majority of the bases listed are bases- then there are bases. We still maintain bases or basing rights in a large number of countries. This is like owning a first aid kit - something you don't need at this moment and hope you never need in the future. We maintain a large military presence in and around Japan. The prupose of this should be obvious. We have maintained a fairly large military presence in Germany - from what I understand that is all to be removed except for Ramstein Airforce Base. Ramstein is the largest USAF Base outside of the continental US. (it is also the largest NATO airbase in Europe) Landstuhl Hospital will be maintained. From what I understand everything else is to be removed from Germany. (I have tried to find out if France intends to replace these with French military assets but was told the French military have never been to Germany - it has always been the other way around). I was going to go down the list posted above country by country but there really is no need - As you can tell from the following chart, (these are the latest numbers that appear to be available but should still be fairly current - assets have been moved this year to the Iraqi region but most were temporary relocations) there are only a handfull of maintainance people at most of the bases and some are totally unoccupied. I think if you look at these numbers you will find that the long listing of bases above is really rather moot.


http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/alma...ple/serve.html

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Liquor Dealer

Sorry about the Old Europe/New Europe thing. Germany is going to feel the blunt of US militray realignment - France is.....Who knows or cares at this moment. There are all types of reasons for realignmnet of military assets. Need is the basic reason. Needs have changed. New equipment and tactic are also a big reason - the past month has shown that many of our airborne assets flew out of the continental US. Bases in England and on Diego Garcia make any part of Europe or the middle east reachable. US Naval assets are capable of delivering a larger military than that of most countries on earth in a short time. We have maintained a large presence to deal with a problem that no longer exists and those assets are going to be removed or relocated.

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Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

boatin

I'm not sure if we are saying the same thing or not. There's a crapload of bases on either list. Many of them are going away. I think that's a good thing. And it will upset the local economy when it happens. Too bad.

My overriding point (that many may disagree with) is that we don't need so many. The idea that we need to project force in every corner of the world, from every corner of the world, is idiocy.

We just moved thousands of troops and equipment from the US to Iraq. As technology improves, and strategies change, this gets even easier to do. We don't need to be spending money (and riling up the locals) all over the world.

I feel certain that maintaining a first aid kit in Greenland (153) and Iceland (1,713) costs the US taxpayers money we don't have. Our economy is in the shitter.

And damn you for finding a better list than I did.