popo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Sep18.html

In the nearby town of Fallujah, witnesses said an American patrol opened fire on guests at a wedding, killing a 14-year-old boy and wounding six people, after mistaking celebratory gunfire for an attack.

floonine

jesus, that sounds like a cover-up to me. But who am I to know either way, eh?

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Political arguments do not exist, after all, for people to believe in them, rather they serve as a common, agreed-upon excuse. Foolish people who take them in earnest sooner or later discover inconsistencies in them, begin to protest and finish finally and infamously as heretics.

Arc101

Yep trigger happy soldiers again. Any bets on how long it takes for America to pull out of Iraq - I give it 5 to 6 months.

filtherton

We can't pull out, regardless of whether we actually should or not. We would be the laughingstock of the world- our nationalistic pride would never allow it. America has made it's bed and now is too proud to not sleep in it.

eple

*cough*Vietnam*cough*

Mojo_PeiPei

Its amusing how quick people are to cast judgment on these kids. Your in a foreign country that has hostile people constantly ambushing and killing your comrades. Its really easy for you assclowns to talk shit when your thousands of miles away sitting in front of a comp. Further more this is no where near Vietnam. For the most part we are getting along with the locals (unless insanely stupid shit like this keeps happening) and our Causalities are at about .005% of what they were in Nam.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

The_Dude

these have turned into a daily occurance.

our soldiers keep dying and so do more innocent people.

looks like we're losing the war on both sides.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

seretogis

Is it just me, or is this just another time when common sense would be a good idea? If you are occupied by the forces of another country and they are under daily attack, do not fucking shoot your AK-47s into the air. Honestly, how stupid can someone get? Celebratory gunfire?

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

reconmike

after mistaking celebratory gunfire for an attack.

Celebratory gunfire? At a wedding. Gotta love savage countries.

Let's see..... combat patrol, gunfire....hmmmm looks like a reasonable response.

Maybe now word will get out, there are very armed and willing US troops here maybe we should cut back on the celebratory gunfire a bit.

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Where is Darwin when ya need him?

dimbulb

its a cultural thing. If its been a custom, then of course they would do it!! its like how you americans like to set off fireworks on the 4th of july. How would you like to get shot for that?

governments tend to discourage celebratory firings though. I've read scores of tragedies at weddings in parkistan or the philipines or whereever where someone accidentally gets shot.

Food Eater Lad

This pretty much sums up my thoughts.

SkanK0r

Orrrrr maybe our soldiers should stop a think for a split second before opening fire into a group of people?

I agree that this is unfortunate and I'm sure our soldiers didn't MEAN to hurt anyone innocent, but hearing a shot and just opening fire into a crowd of people is pretty fucking shitty, and against military regulation.

filtherton

Yes, it is easy to sit here and talk shit. But peacekeeping is what these soldiers are supposed to be doing. If they can't handle it, maybe they shouldn't be in the army. If they aren't being trained properly, maybe we shouldn't be shoving our boys into something we aren't giving them the tools to deal with.
Furthermore it is far from amusing how quick people scream for war with no clear plan for the afterparty. A peace keeping force shouldn't be getting in shootouts with the local cops(earlier this week) or shooting up wedding parties.


from reconmike:
Are you serious?!??

What are we gonna show the savages the shining light of chrisitianity next??

If you want savage, maybe you should pick up an american history book.

Macheath

America will withdraw after they've figured out some way to make the whole mess seem like it was the UN's fault - maybe put the UN in operational control of latrines or something, then take some petty disagreement and blow it up into a diplomatic crisis. Then withdraw from Iraq while claiming how disappointed they are that the fatcats, communists and pencil pushers at the UN have hampered their efforts to improve the lives of Iraqi citizens...

Hey it'll be a hard sell, but the spin doctors don't get paid for their looks.

And the Iraqis can do what they want with their AKs, it's their god given constitutional right.

seretogis

If we were occupied by another nation, I probably wouldn't be dumb enough to risk being shot by shooting off fireworks, or firearms.

Our troops over there need to look out for themselves first, and everyone else second. As horrible as some of you may think this sounds, our troops lives are more important to our government than the lives of people who may or may not be attacking them.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Silvy

Exactly what I've been thinking!
This line is further strengthened by the recent appeal to the U.N. by the American government. Which may not be a 180 turn by US policy but is certainly a whole lot different tone than they used before the war started.

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reconmike

I think it is more , we did the dirty work that the GREAT UN did not have the balls to do, and now we are looking for them to do the clean up of the garbage.

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Where is Darwin when ya need him?

dimbulb

There's also the rule of identifying your targets before you shoot.

The troops really need to take more care regarding this. It's a trade-off between the bigger strategic issues of not turning the population against you, and your own personal self-protection.

I could carry a gun, and shoot anyone who remotely seems like he is threatening me or threatening to pull a gun on me. Or i could verify the threat, and make sure that I am indeed in a life-threatening situation before opening fire.

Conclamo Ludus

Pick up a World History book. American's are far from the beginning or end of savagery.

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Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul
I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold.
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Food Eater Lad

Or you could not shoot YOUR gun off. If you carry a gun, and YOU shoot it, I can shoot you. YOU are being irresponcible. If you were in America, and you shoot off rounds of an ak 47 do you think the Police would stop to ask you if you were in a wedding?

Dont shoot guns unless you are prepared for the results of said action. Its fucking comming sense.

Conclamo Ludus

I think its tragic. Its a horrible mistake, but our boys are getting killed everyday and quite frankly its not as black and white as "confirm the target" I'm sure. Maybe it should be, but obviously its a little more hectic over there than that. These guys are getting fired on all the time. This reaction doesn't surprise me. Sadly some people love to hear new like this.

__________________
Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul
I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold.
-Son House, Death Letter Blues

filtherton

AllI'm not denying it. I'm just saying that maybe reconmike should get off his high horse and recon the history of his own country before he dismisses the deaths of innocent civilians by calling them savages. As if america's existence wasn't made possible by numerous instances of savagery.

As for support from the UN... What happened to our "coalition of the willing"? Where's Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom and Uzbekistan. You'd think with all of these heavyweights on our side we wouldn't need help from the UN. Especially after we've tried so hard as a nation to show the world how little we actually need the UN.

homerhop

They are not in America.
It is their country and their traditions.
It could also be said dont invade a country unless you are prepared for the results of said action. Its fucking comming sense.

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its evolution baby

debaser

What I think is sick is that people use tragic incidents like this to further their own political agendas.

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filtherton

Yeah, using september eleventh as an excuse to erode civil liberties and rush into an ill concieved occupation is inexcusable.

rainheart

Lol. Spindoctoring to the extreeeeeeeme.

Personally, I agree that they shouldnt've fired their guns during an occupation.
But even still people once again died for no reason at all, including an innocent 14 year old kid, and blame should go to both sides.

Food Eater Lad

Like I said, a gun is weapon. Fire it only when prepared for the consequences. Throw rice next time and live.

BigGov

Lets see, many people are shooting guns. Lets stop and investigate where the gunfire is coming from and who's firing and why while we dodging bullets with ease.

While we're at it, lets gain the ability to stop time so we can find all the terrorists with RPG's and such so we can kill them well in advance.

What if an American soldier were to die from fire at a wedding? Would that magically be alright?

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Xell101

You bonehead, we aren't there picking cotton waving our dicks in the air.

Er...it is an example of why we need to crush our enemies before they attack us, the point of killing your enemy is to protect your interests so why the hell should you wait to get stabbed in the kidney before you fight back?

It seems like if a society isn't very profecient at punching nature in the balls and collectively making it their bitch they are savage and primitive.

...if you were fighting me you'd confirm I was the bad guy in 3 seconds cause your guys would start getting hit, you don't have a whole lot of time to differentiate between customs and stuff intended to make you die.

Or just don't fire your gun adjacent to trained killers who are constantly concerned about getting shot by anyone that isn't a fellow soldier.

filtherton

Your assertions that iraq was a threat are debatable. WMD? No conclusive evidence. How long did it take for us to conquer their army? Coupla weeks. Rwwaaaawr, watchout, its the iraqi army. Don't say they were linked to terrorism- if we really cared about that we'd be arguing about "occupied saudi arabia".

Anyways, now we've overextended ourselves. We can't back out because the administration would look like it did pre9/11. That is, clumsy and of questionable intelligence. In the process of liberating iraq we've also brought hundreds of thousand of americans thousands of miles closer to people who hate us(some for very valid reasons) and want to kill us. Why is anyone surprised that iraq is now filling up with actual terrorists? If you pardon the expression, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Wait, here's the antiwar disclaimer, "Now, i'm not saying saddam wasn't a horrible person, who ruled his subjects with greed and masochism", but if it is as you say, this was really about protecting our interests, not liberation.

And killing savages is what any civilized society worth its weight in shit-handling velvet gloves should do best. You'd think that we'd actually make an attempt to understand some of their customs before we kill them for customary behavior.

dimbulb

and some people wonder why the Arabs hate America......

listen to yourselves, and put yourself into the shoes of the arabs.

Whatever your take is, do you agree that this unneccessary loss of life is a tragedy? I simply CANNOT see how you think that these Iraqis DESERVED to die.

I don't wish to knock the American soldiers. I think that given how difficult their job is, they're doing it reasonably well. However, if you truly wish to win this war, you have to maintain the support of the iraqi people.

Remember that the ultimate aim of this "occupation" is to set up a viable democracy in the middle east, that will eventually set an example to the rest of the Arab world. The aim is NOT to "crush" and subdue the Iraqi people. It's to give them an opportunity to exercise their democratic rights. You want to do everything possible to further this.

Remember, the Iraqi people are not your enemy!!!!

SkanK0r

I know you were trying to be cute, but it's still a stupid statement. They didn't have to "dodge gunfire" - the shots were fired into the AIR. Unless these were a member of our U.S. Jetpack Army and were currently hovering above the wedding.

Say what you want, but hearing shots and immediatly firing is not only irresponsible, it's AGAINST military regulation. AGAINST. What that means is that these soldiers did something WRONG. I feel bad for these soldiers who obviously didn't mean to do something this terrible, but you can't excuse their actions - they fucked up.

As for these "savages" firing their weapons at a wedding, I don't give a fuck who's occupying their country - it's their fucking country. They never asked for us to be there, so we can't expect them to just sign over their cultural traditions as soon as we walk into the fray. They fire their guns at weddings. It's their wedding, it's their country, it's their tradition. Keep your ethnocentrism out of it.

And a hearty "fuck you" to whoever called them savages.

Xell101

[quote]

filtherton

How can our killing of them be justified while their killing of us is not? How can you talk of justification for murder when we have DECLARED WAR on these people. How can we can blame their civilians for us killing their civilians and then get all uppity when they take out our soldiers? Like it or not, our soldiers are a valid military target, their civilians are not.


It depends on who you are listening to.

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/030918/3/14jzo.html
"Blix attacks 'spin and hype' of Iraq weapons claims"
No offense, but i trust Hans Blix more than i trust you.

Here's an update:
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/030919/3/14mkv.html

U.S. troops fire at Italian diplomat's car in Iraq
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - American troops opened fire on a car carrying an Italian diplomat who holds a senior position in Iraq's U.S.-led administration, killing his Iraqi interpreter, American military sources said on Friday.

Pietro Cordone, senior adviser on culture for the U.S.-led authority, was unhurt in Thursday's shooting, Italian Foreign Ministry sources said. Cordone has been leading efforts to recover priceless antiquities looted from museums and archaeological sites since the fall of Saddam Hussein.

The U.S. military sources said Cordone's car was shot at after it repeatedly tried to overtake a U.S. convoy near Tikrit, Saddam's hometown.

Soldiers repeatedly warned the car not to overtake, the sources said, and opened fire when they thought the vehicle was trying to ram them.

Many Iraqis accuse U.S. troops of being too quick to open fire and failing to follow rules of engagement.

Human rights groups say many innocent Iraqis have been killed. The United States says it keeps no figures on civilian casualties.

Last week, the U.S. Army apologised after soldiers in the tense town of Falluja killed 10 Iraqi security guards and a Jordanian in a gun battle that was later described as an accident.

Locals in Falluja say U.S. troops there also killed a teenager on Wednesday night when they opened fire after hearing celebratory gunshots from a wedding, mistakenly believing they were under attack.

Last month, a U.S. soldier shot dead award-winning Reuters cameraman Mazen Dana on the outskirts of Baghdad. The U.S. Army said the soldier mistook Dana's camera for a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.



This is happening way too much.

Xell101

SkanK0r

That's a false dichotomy - of course no one would want that, and there's no reason to say that less civilian deaths would immediatly translate to higher US bodycounts. THat's a rather stupid statement.

But it would be nice if soldiers followed their orders and kept to their Rules Of Engagement instead of firing whenever they get scared.

Xell101

The civilians shot by US soldiers seem to be getting shot because the US soldiers construed their actions as being threatening, they construed them as being threatening because their actions qualify them as a potential threat, if they don't immediately remove themselves from that catagory somehow, since the area is still rather hostile, they shall be responded to as a threat. Therefore, if the civilians that were shot by US soldiers had been properly identified, the soldiers would have needed to change the way they do things in such a way that had they been a real threat they would have most likely been successful, therefore any attack made will be far more successful and yield more US casualties as the soldiers will not respond as quickly and effeciently and not be able to keep their fatalies lower than they otherwise would be.
It isn't stupid, it just isn't verifiable in all aspects, do you have any statistics about enemies killed in circumstances the soldiers percieved the cerimonious gun fire to be? I don't, I'm not sure if they exist, I've provided the reasoning for my statement, "there's no reason to say that less civilian deaths would immediatly translate to higher US bodycounts THat's a rather stupid statement." Have something else to back it?

homerhop

I know that ye are not there picking cotton
The Brits are there ( I know not in the same numbers of troops) and they seem to be able to keep their finger off the trigger when around civilians.. must be something to do with training

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its evolution baby

Xell101

Or any number of variables that haven't been introduced yet.

homerhop

such as?

__________________
its evolution baby