HarmlessRabbit

<h2>way to go republicans!</h2>

I wonder if they will also outsource mailings featuring george bush standing on that aircraft carrier to be printed in china?


http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=11219

Macheath

Now if they can just outsource the coding of their electronic voting machine programs to Indian programmers, it'll be the cheapest election win in US history.

Kadath

I bet those Indians are making top dollar, too.

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it's quiet in here

The_Dude

i'm not surprised.

a right wing party is in control here and a right wing (but hindu) party is in control in india.

i'm sure they can find similiarities to work on.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Darkblack

Is the INQUIRER a valid source? I often skip over news from tabloids but this does sound true. If it is this is pretty sad. I guess paying Americans for jobs is too hard and costly for the Republican Party.

Can someone find another source to validate this?

debaser

I saw this over on Genmay. Comedy gold.

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seretogis

That explains why the represenative from the Republican party offered me a beef jerky slushy for my vote.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

2wolves

Not a curry slushy? Obviously the Cattlemen's Association is helping out.

2Wolves

ack32

Why is this such a big deal? Obviously you go put your mind-numbing work where it can be done for the cheapest amount possible. Most manufacturing of parts for American companies (think Intel) or call centers for big companies (Dell) have been moved out of the country.

Of course, other countries don't have OSHA and organized labor to get in the way of the totally benevolant corporations, who only want the best for their employees anyway...

JBX

beh..

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Phat Bank

Man, I knew the Republican party hated the American worker, but sheesh! Way to be super blatant.

reconmike

I cant wait untill '08 when there might be a Dem in the white house, so I can reserve the Lincoln bedroom for what 20 grand.

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Where is Darwin when ya need him?

oldman2003

It's sad that you can't see what the big deal is! Before we worshipped the dollar, people did the right thing. In this case, 3 million american jobs have been lost since GW & party took over the helm. Anyone with common sense (sorry GW this doesn't include you) and a unlimited sea of money could and should "keep it in the family". I'll bet there are at least 10 republicans out there that could have used a job! I just hope this gets used in a 'negative campaine' add on the almighty tv!

HarmlessRabbit

That will be a discount from Bush's prices, ReconMike.

http://WhiteHouseForSale.org

ctembreull

Your veiled attempt at a Clinton reference is noted and laughed at.

http://www.news-star.com/stories/081802/gov_29.shtml

Notable extracts:

"A half-dozen Bush donors and fund-raisers known as "pioneers" are among the guests on a list released late Friday by the White House. Each raised at least $100,000 for Bush's 2000 campaign, helping him take in a record $100 million for the Republican primaries."

""The Republicans made a very big deal about it during the Clinton administration," Noble said. "In this whole business, the whole issue is perception.""

"The American public's access to the White House has been severely restricted," Noble said. "So you may have an increased perception problem if, in fact, large contributors are getting access to the White House."

I guess you'd better wait until a Democrat's in the White House, hopefully starting in January '05. Then it'll only cost you $20K - as opposed to the $100K Bush is charging.

Have a nice day.

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Mac
"If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

Phaenx

That raises a question. Who does the Republicans have that could run in 2008?

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

HarmlessRabbit

Good question. Frist has no personality that I can spot. No way Cheney would do it, even if he is still alive then. Colin Powell would be popular, I would think. Rumsfeld is too abrasive.

Maybe Bush will keep it in the family and let Jeb run?

Phaenx

Maybe John McCain will take another shot?

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

HarmlessRabbit

McCain will bel be 72 in 2008. He seems healthy now, but who knows what he will look like then. At 72, I think age would be an issue.

I forgot about Hastert. I don't think he's really presidential material, but maybe. Any other republican governors come to mind besides jeb?

XenuHubbard

Jeb Bush. 2008 - 2016.
Then the twins are old enough.
They can get 16 years together.
Does Jeb have any kids?

Hey, was this thread called "Futuristic Nightmare Scenarios"?

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Phaenx

Not that I can think of. Probably going to see a few congressmen running.

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

ack32

"Before we worshipped the dollar, people did the right thing?" Do you know what a miserable job trolling for money over the phone is? How does keeping low-paid jobs "in the family" help the country at all? Now, I'm no big GWB fan at all, but it's incredible to see what a difference there is between Republican campaigns and other parties piddling efforts to raise money.

The Republican party has a systematic approach and meticulous records of people to pinch pennies from, and they are very efficient at doing so. This methodical approach has garnered them a HUGE monetary advantage in fund raising, in all of the races that matter.

I believe that the correct answer would have been, GWB could have saved many more jobs by focusing on domestic issues, attempting to reform the health care system and improving funding for social services, and NOT using it up by expanding our overseas military presence.

Going from multi-billion dollar projected surplus to over three hundred billion in defacit is obviously very difficult, but I'm glad we've got a President who isn't afraid of a challenge.

Maybe if the Democratic wing of the Democratic party is able to be so efficient in fund-raising, we won't have to see how much deeper the hole gets, measured both financially and in the amount of ill-will the rest of the world feels for our country.

oldman2003

Bullshit! I don't care what party anyone represents. All those that are removing the middle class from America are just self serving money hungry assholes. You don't get it....Off shore jobs are distroying America....what about the tax dollars that will never be collected from all the jobs that left? What about the long food lines in the heartland, where people are working full time but not make enough money to pay the bills and eat? Our asshole leaders don't have an ounce of compassion in their warpped hearts.....

Willy

I would like to see a link for this but if it's true that is ridiculous.

HarmlessRabbit

here's a followup story:

http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/03/02/16_India.html

which contains a link to the india business paper that originally "leaked" the information:

http://www.business-standard.com/arc...310103.016.asp

rogue49

Classic

ack32

I don't understand, this economic protectionism is pretty dangerous. Are you saying that you don't believe in free trade? Because the ability to move jobs back and forth and trade goods with other countries is what is going to make the world economy work... it's Econ 101.

The problem is with such strong unions in the US, corporations have their hands tied when dealing with US workers. When the longshoremen had the strike at the docks on the west coast, people were infuriated because they were asking for more money when they already were making $90K+. You see instances of this happening in many industries, where American workers are paid much more than their foreign counterparts for identical commodity-type jobs. Many companies are also stuck with strict hiring/firing agreements with the unions that prevent them from being nimble and effective.

The objective tack is that the economics of free trade ensure that everyone wins in the long run, in that more goods are produced and prices remain low. Everybody loves cheap Nike shoes (various Asian countries), bananas and coffee (South America) and Intel computer chips (Malaysia). It makes no sense to protect or subsidize established industries (other than for national security purposes), it just fosters an uncompetetive and inefficient environment.

The end result is that there has to be a reason to keep a job in the US at a higher pay than an overseas job. And just to be "keeping jobs in the US" isn't a good reason, in my humble opinion.

HarmlessRabbit

While you have a point, the unions exist for a reason. Read up on your labor history about the industrialists of the 1800's.

The problem with jobs moving out of the USA is that they are often moving to a labor pool that has NO rights and barely gets subsitence wages. If you want a "race to the bottom", where every one is equalized, the the USA will quickly become a third world country where workers won't have basic coverage like healthcare and won't get living wages.

We're partially there now. Read "Nickel & Dimed" to get a glimpse of the future that you're creating if you support jobs going to the lowest worldwide bidder with no consideration of environment, quality of life, health care, or civil rights.

ack32

The unions had a purpose when they were first created. Back then, there were no such novel ideas such as "minimum wage" or "OSHA" to create standards as to health and safety of workers. However, today there are a multitude of laws which make sure that there are standards which must be followed so that people can safely work in a healthy work environment. Today, most unions are all about twisting the arms of the management into unfair employment agreements, and using their considerable political power to influence government policies that condone this bad behavior. Seriously, when's the last time you heard about miners being crushed in a collapsed mine or people cutting off their fingers in heavy machinery, workers being forced to buy from the company store or work in toxic environments without protective equipment? This isn't the 1800s.

I'm also not interested in having the world move toward a "race to the bottom." Businesses are keenly aware of their public image. One advantage of outsourcing business functions overseas is cost. It's sometimes cheaper to use overseas workers. However, if the negative PR they get outweighs the cost savings of going overseas, then they won't do it. So you'll most likely see a movement of jobs to countries that don't have extremely bad working conditions, in fact the salaries can be pretty good--just not as high as in the US. I'm all for enforcing international labor standards abroad.

If you'll take a look at what has happened in the mega-consulting companies of India, you see that skilled workers there have been taking programming and call-center jobs from the US for quite some time. However, as their standard of living has increased, the salaries have risen. The cost savings for US businesses goes down, so they source out to other countries or move jobs back to the US. In this fashion, it's not really "racing to the bottom," but bringing a higher standard of living to other countries, who use their skills and money to consume more US goods.

I'll agree that not all companies that move overseas have the high-minded goal of raising the standard of living in foreign countries. I'd say that probably none of them even consider that. But if it happens as a byproduct of trying to save a few bucks, I'd gladly accept making the US poorer if it makes the rest of the world a better place to live.

oldman2003

1.
This is not about raising the standard of living for 3thrid world countries; this is about greed and exploitation. If you have ever been injured on the job and gone through the system you will know the laws really don’t protect you. I have been there. I have had the State of Mi tell me I was correct and blatantly tell they didn’t want to do anything about it. I had lawyers tell me not enough money for them in the workman’s comp case. I had the union tell me the same. The laws don’t work.

2.
The IT departments in India are crying because China is taking their jobs that they took from the US. US software developer = $60,000 India software developer = $10,000. China software developer = 3,500. Do you know where the savings goes? In the pockets of the CEO’s. It is all about greed.

3.
I have toured central Mexico. Some fat cats flew me in on their private jet. We had to land 50 miles away because the locals hate rich Americans and the fat cats were afraid to let them see the jet. I saw first hand what “Free trade” is all about. I was never so ashamed to be an American. Yea, paying them a dollar a day made them the elite of their village but did it really help them? It took thousands of jobs from the US and the savings were never passed down the chain. Local, state, and federal tax dollars were gone never to return.

In India they have a word “Dharma” that basically means doing what is right. We Americans should learn how to do this….

ack32

Giblfiz has a concise analysis of the overseas job exodus phenomenon, which I quote from this thread: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=24424

Quote:

As far as blue collar jobs going overseas... yes they are, but there is no solution to that. Corporate wellfare will only slow down the exodus as long as you are giving up everything you gained by having them here. Tariffs never work. This is a facet where we just loose, and should try to make it hurt as little as possible. Oh and its not just blue collar jobs that are leaving, many white collar ones are going too. If you have a rational plan for combating job export I would love to hear it.

Whether you like it or not, and it will be painful at first, jobs will move overseas. There is nothing you can do about it as long as you believe in free trade with countries that enforce international labor standards. What you can do is be prepared, meaning create a nitch that takes advantage of your place in the US and makes it worth it for your job to stay domestic. If there's no justification for your job to stay, then it won't.

As far as your injury, I'm guessing it wasn't life threatening or even serious. It's not the government's job to provide everyone with free liability insurance. Sometimes mistakes happen and you deal with them and move on.

You keep focusing on the very negative aspects of foreign workers. Working for a "low" salary by US standards is better than living in poverty. It also enriches the government of the host nation, who gets more tax money.

Macheath

What do you suggest for countries that do not enforce international labor standards? Sanctions? Trade embargoes? What about American firms that operate in those countries?

oldman2003

I should have saved that for another thread. And yes it was serious and a live changing permanently disability...

but this thread is about the righteous christen republicans that get all up in arms when you move there false god from the court house! They think they can pick and choose what ethics and morals that suit them and toss the others out. Don’t you get it? An American election. For American people. An American political party. American voters. The most money ever to be spent on an American election. And the grunt work being sent to India like it is beneath them to do it here! I interpret this as a slap in the face to the American people. It is pure arrogance! It goes against all they say they stand for!

ack32

For countries that don't enforce labor standards, I'd suggest you limit the business you do with companies that source jobs out there. Voting with your feet is the most powerful type of voting, and there are always other companies to buy your goods and services from. If you go for the "cheap" brands knowing full well that your products are produced in sweat shops, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. When companies see that the negative impact of working in foreign countries that do not respect minimum labor standards, they will think twice about using them for cheap labor.

Check out Howard Dean's website on labor: (http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/P...tatement_labor) ... this supposedly far-left leaning candiate (he's actually much more moderate than people think) has a quite reasonable labor agenda. "To restore economic growth, we need to strengthen the right to unionize here at home and enforce international labor standards abroad." Exactly what I've been saying. Enforcement of labor standards abroad and supporting the right of people to unionize are very important. Sure, unions sometimes make bad decisions when they get too greedy/powerful, but I respect the willingness they have to make big employers more responsive to the blue (and white) collar workers. However, when unions demand too much while giving too little, the jobs will move overseas.

The most important part is to be active and stand up for what you believe. Research the companies that you do business with and see what their stance is on the issues that you care about. The most important vote that you have is your free will and choice.

But remember that it costs money to buy goods and services, and that's why almost all Volkswagens are engineered in Germany, but produced or assembled in South America and Eastern Europe, and the shoes you probably have were produced in poor working conditions...

ack32

I'm sorry to hear of your disability, I didn't mean to make a personal attack and I apologize.

I agree with you about the pretty disgusting behavior of the Republican party. Search for "Politicians behaving badly" to see four examples of the naughty things Republicans have been up to. It's pretty amazing how much they've been able to get away with.

Where I disagree with you is in your criticism of the brilliant Republican tactics. They have a fund-raising juggernaut, that steamrolls any Democratic candidate on any given day of the week. Left-leaning people will vote Democratic, the right will vote Republican, that much is a given. The big fight is for the centrists, who decide elections. Money buys airtime and more airtime can sway votes. If you are so indignant about the Republicans, why don't you do something about it and campaign for their opposition? The Democrats/other parties are at a significant disadvantage for "mindshare" since they have less money. More money and reputations will be shed over what look to be a nasty Democratic primary fight, which the Republicans will not have to endure.

Participation is the foundation of Democracy. While many of the things "immoral" things that happen are technically legal, it's important that you make the people who make those decisions pay for their bad karma. 2004 Elections, here we come.

2wolves

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...e+labor+coffee

And enjoy that next cup of coffee.

2Wolves

prb

I wish the republicans would outsource Bush's job.