dogzilla

My taxes went down a small amount. However, government spending and borrowing went way up. At some point, interest rates and inflation are going to go up because of this or places like China are going to stop lending us money because our debt to GDP ratio is too high. All of the stimulus spending has had very little effect. Unemployment is still a mess. The housing market is still a mess. Credit markets are still messed up. The only thing that seems to have recovered significantly is the stock market. Obama's instituted so many government giveaways that I wonder why I even bother to work any more. I would have been better off to heavily mortgage my house, hide the money somewhere and let Obama bail me out.

I don't believe for a second that I can ever borrow my way to prosperity, and neither can the US government. Obama is digging a very large hole to bury the US.

As far as the health plan, well, it's only been a couple days since it's been signed and I've already read about three large companies cutting health care plans. I can hardly wait to see what my employer does when my insurance comes up for renewal and how much that is going to cost me.

By the way, I compared my taxes a few years after Bush was elected to what they were when Clinton was president and my taxes went down then too.

ASU2003

The bigger question is why is healthcare 1/6th of our economy? Why do we need so much care? Why does it cost so much more in the US compared to other countries? Where is the money going to? And why are these large companies paying so much?

My projected healthcare costs this year is $150, next year it will be $0 (known or planned numbers). I pay $800-$1000/year in insurance, and I think my employer pays $3000. That would be close to $30-$50 million for 10,000-15,000 employees if they use a younger person rates for everyone (which they don't). The company may make a billion or two a year, so it can handle paying that, but I wonder if we get anywhere close to $10 million in healthcare expenses.

RogueGypsy

oops video won't embed, see below

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

dippin

As mentioned before, the "hole" Obama is digging is much, much smaller than the hole Bush dug. The problem is that the hole Bush dug will only really be visible in the future because they are mostly unfunded mandates that make the deficits under both Bush and Obama seem like child's play. Which is why the complaints about tax increases, or, as in this thread, ending subsidies, cannot be reconciled with a view that cares about deficits.

RogueGypsy

Worth watching


YouTube - Congressman Mike Rogers' opening statement on Health Care reform in Washington D.C.

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

Idyllic

ObamaCare, the future of America.


How will we pay for this new bill, the VAT will be coming, it’s basic economics.

This is a logical outcome, you all know the possibility of this happening is relevant, and yet you all seem to be holding hand and singing kum by ya, reality isn’t a one sided perspective, in all matters, the “facts” come from both sides. This scenario is just as much a reality for America as it is not and as much as I am a believer of American Exceptionalism, I just don’t see how we are going to get around the facts and the reality of this bill.

It really is that basic and that simple the economics of this bill and the payments we will make just don’t equal up to freedom, let alone a relevant cohesive health care system. We can do Better than this, we have to do better than this, for all our children and our parents, we must do better than where this bill will lead our society.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

dippin

Trying to compare what has been passed to what constitutes "universal health care" in central European and Scandinavian countries is a joke. Trying to put what has been passed as similar to what real social democracies do is a joke. This project is incredibly similar to what was suggested by republicans in 94 and what Romney actually ran on in 08.

And to call this the biggest expansion of the welfare state in so many years is another joke. Medicare part D costs significantly more than this reform, even when we take away all cost offsets. In less than a decade Medicare part D is expected to account for 1/3 of all medicare payments. But unlike this legislation, medicare part D has no cost offsets and is pretty much a gift to pharma companies, given how it prohibits negotiation for lower prices.

Finally, taxes SHOULD go up, and last I checked the VAT is the dream child of conservatives, as opposed to the progressive income taxation of real social democrats. The fact is that government programs are much more popular than most would acknowledge, with less than 1/5 of republicans (nevermind the general public) willing to cut medicare, medicaid, or social security. Sure, we would all like government programs that gave out benefits but didn't cost anything, but as we must remind conservatives this time around, there is no free lunch.

Baraka_Guru

First of all, I have a question: do you want us to take you seriously?

Second, I don't know where Dick Morris is getting his data, but the WHO numbers show that between Canada and the U.S. the cancer mortality rates are far more parallel.

The cost of universal health care and the challenges it poses to budgets in the developed world is something that needs to be addressed. The problem with the U.S. is not universal health care in itself, it's the cost of health care period. It is much higher than it is compared to most (if not all) developed nations. The costs need to be reigned in somehow. Also, the U.S. needs to reexamine its overall budget. It might want to consider the dollars it spends on its military budget. I don't think its currently getting a good return for its investment. How's that for a reality?

As for "American Exceptionalism," I don't think I know what that is. All I can say at this point is that it sounds like a myth.

And how does an accountant record "freedom" on the ledger and balance sheet?

If you need something better, how do you propose getting health care to all members of American society?

I know they did it wrong. It's not quite universal health care so much as it is a national insurance plan.

What should be done?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ASU2003

AT&T sees billion-dollar-hit from health care reform - Yahoo! News

So, is keeping retirees on the companies prescription drug insurance plans instead of sending them to Medicare cost that much money to the company or the insurance companies? Or did they government in 2003 just give companies a large tax write-off and now they are bitching about it going away?

Rekna

So here is what really is going on. There was a tax loophole that allowed companies to receive a subsidy of $1,330 per retiree. The companies would then write off that same $1,330 dollars as an expense lowering their taxable income. Basically they were falsely claiming an expense they never had in order to avoid paying taxes. I'm glad they closed down this loophole.

SecretMethod70

Baraka: American exceptionalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your instincts are correct.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Idyllic

How about this study, how many will it take to realize the truth, it is what it is.

What part of facts is misrepresented here, I can find more articles by professionals that say the same thing, whether you like it or not, this is the reality of government controlled health care plans.

As for American Exceptionalisms being myth, or notating a sense of superiority, you all need to stop this inane attack on semantics, it seems less like me being irrational and more like others being unable to grasp the basic definition of a word or attempting to alter it to fit there own definition.

If you can’t recognize the base concept of exceptiolism for what it is as opposed to a comment of superiority or self worth, then you don’t understand the fundamental expression of this word or what its definition represents to the U.S. and it’s uniqueness, Tocqueville is lost on you, oh well.

As for “myth,” I’m beginning to think the world is full of a lot of you myth graspers who live in your “it will all be wonderful” world were health care is free and service is exceptional, therein lies the true myth, magazines in the lobby, enjoy your wait.

SilentMethod70, read the definition of American Exceptionalism again, this time without any preconceived notions, or contempt for my post, if it still doesn't make sense, read Tocqueville. Leave it to the left to pervert a perfectly good word.

Stop pigeon holing conservative remarks as ignorant, elitist, chicken little's and look in the mirror at the reality of your own remarks and what they represent, hopelessly lost in wishful thinking.

Apparently being taken seriously on this sight seems to depends on whether you agree with "them" or not.

Economics of the Health Care Reform = VAT

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

dc_dux

You link Betsy McCaughey? The queen of the "death panels" fear monger?

And you want to be taken seriously?

---------- Post added at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 AM ----------

My personal opinion of American exceptionalism is that it is a wish to look back to better times when the demographics of the country was more representative of those who espouse that belief.

How is de Tocqueville relevant to the 21st century?

---------- Post added at 10:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 AM ----------

And, for the record, for the umteenth, time, the health care reform enacted is in no way comparable to any European style health care. It is an expansion of privately provided health care to 30+ million more Americans and, for the first time, new coverages and safeguards for the rest of us to ensure that no one goes broke as a result of an illness or medical crisis.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Baraka_Guru

It's nice little bundle of truth, but it doesn't go into a number of factors that lead up to the numbers. But if you like bottom lines, then there's this: "Canada also trails the USA in cancer survival: for men 61% USA, 58% Canada, for women 57% USA, 53% Canada." That's "trailing," yes, but if this were a competition, then Canada's still "in the game." But if you go beyond the summarizations, you get different pictures. How many families had their finances ruined by cancer in the U.S. vs. Canada? Do we want to go into that?

There are other factors as well, that could be read into this. Canada has a more sparse population density, and so you get problems in remote areas and finding adequate help in time. There are several other factors as well, but if you want to focus on the bottom line, I'll take Canada's care over the U.S.'s If I ever get cancer or heart disease, I won't be able to afford treatment on my own.

Find all the articles you want. The U.S. has a great health care track record; that's great. But it costs a fortune compared to other systems and 30,000,000 haven't had access at all. (That's a population about the size of Canada, btw.) It's great system, yes. Awesome. (Congratulations, even?) But it's geared towards those with nice jobs or a lot of money.

Okay, I know what exceptional means....

...but what Tocqueville means by American Exceptionalism is different. It's a specific usage of the word to make it a specific term and idea. But it's an idea of the past. It's stale. It leads to questions such as, what about Canadian Exceptionalism? Chinese Exceptionalism? EU Exceptionalism?

We are all so exceptional! It's like postmodernism never happened, when, in fact, it did. And I will even acknowledge that postmodernism is dead and gone. It died on 9/11. You'd think that if the zombie of American Exceptionalism were still shifting around that it would have finally died then as well.

Who's living in the "wonderful world"? You believe in American Exceptionalism. If America were so exceptional, you'd think it would be able to provide for a basic human right to all of its citizens. Health care isn't "free," but neither is "freedom."

So the more I think of it, the more I see American Exceptionalism as an old idea to describe a new phenomenon that was America. That's in the past. What's exceptional about America now isn't the same as what was exceptional then. This is why I have a problem with the term.

I have no idea in what capacity you're using that term. Maybe you could explain. American Exceptionalism is so awesome that it should prevent universal health care from happening? I don't get it.

You'd think that since America can afford such a ruinously expense, wasteful, and ineffectual military apparatus that they could afford to give access to health care. Maybe the two are at odds?

I agree the America is exceptional, but I take that as being exceptionally good and bad.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

filtherton

It isn't necessarily informative to compare cancer outcomes between different regions as an indicator of overall health care quality without also comparing cost. Any guesses on which system costs more and by how much (US spending as a percentage of GDP was 158% of Canada's in 2007)?

via http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,33..._1_1_1,00.html

An interesting question would be how much more effective a Canadian type system would be if it were to spend the kind of money the US spends.

scout

That is a false statement. Just because someone doesn't have health insurance here doesn't mean they don't have access to health care. You cannot be refused emergency medical care any place that receives public or tax monies, which is virtually every single hospital in the United States with the exception of perhaps a handful. You can still go to any doctor you want to go to for non emergency care but you will have to pay for it out of your pocket. Many doctors will give you a discounted rate if you tell them you don't have insurance. Also there are low cost clinics that can be found everywhere that will take you in for a hugely discounted rate. Everyone here has access to health care, the question is whether they can afford it or not. This bill has done nothing to address the real problems with health care in this country. All it has done is force everyone the government deems able to afford it to purchase insurance whether or not they can is another story. By some accounts there will still be some not able to get insurance so it has already failed before it even began.

__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
Thomas Jefferson

Baraka_Guru

Fair enough, scout. Then take my statement to mean "affordable access." I take not being covered as not having the access one should have.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

filtherton

Access is meaningless if costs are prohibitive. Most chronic medical conditions can't be treated solely through ERs, and I think everyone has heard stories about people dying from treatable diseases because they lacked the money to pay for the treatment.

silent_jay

Let's not forget this guy Saul William Seidman and his book Inevitable Incompetence: Soaring Medical Costs, Dangerous Medical Care, which in the product description for the book on Amazon the first line says:
Most likely another like some here who have never been to a country with Universal Health Care, or they assume they know how it is here or elsewhere through article and studies, that apparently have quite the slant to them as well.

dippin

I would love to know more about the "health care = vat" but I guess we will be waiting forever, just like everything else.

As for cancer survival rates, why don't we go into the statistics into more detail?

Sure, the US does better than Canada, and than "European men" on the aggregate. But why don't we break it down?

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/32/7/43947803.xls

Cancer survival in five continents: a worldwide population-based study (CONCORD) : The Lancet Oncology

You know what the selective comparison presented in that op-ed fails to mention?

The only type of cancer where the US is number 1 in survival rates worldwide is prostate cancer. It is #2 in breast cancer behind Cuba. It is #5 in colorectal cancer behind Cuba, Japan, Iceland and France.

And though we don't have data for Cuba on cervical cancer, among OECD nations the US is 8th in cervical cancer survival.

Not so much better after all, right?


Even that doesn't tell you the whole story. The cancer where the US does best, which is prostate, has a median onset age of 72. That means that the vast majority of prostate cancer treatments are covered by medicare.

And to put the final nail on the coffin of this silliness, the study cited there, which i presented here, only covers a few types of cancer. When we look at cancer mortality in the aggregate, by age standardized mortality rate the US is not even top 5 in the developed world. The things where the US is number 1 on among the developed world is infant mortality, and it is also top 3 on maternal mortality and years of life lost to communicable diseases.


As an aside, I find it annoying that instead of addressing other people's counterpoints, you just ignore them and post another op-ed by a random conservative talking head. If this is going to be your m.o. here, let me know and I'll start ignoring your posts.

silent_jay

I don't reckon it's people can't grasp the definition, seems pretty simple, maybe you have a different definition as to what it means.
exceptional - definition of exceptional by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
and Exceptionalism
exceptionalism - definition of exceptionalism by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

scout

If you don't have insurance and you have medical problems beyond your means to pay there was always Medicare/Medicaid you could fall back on after you had expended your available cash. I've never personally known anyone to die from a preventable disease and I seriously doubt you have either. It isn't all that common and if someone has died from a preventable disease it's probably because they made a bad decision so please don't exaggerate it like people are dropping like flies because they can't afford insurance. I don't understand how you folks can be so thrilled to have hooked and crooked and gotten this bill passed. It does nothing for the middle class but raise rates in the short term and undoubtedly our taxes in the long run. It does absolutely nothing to help bring down costs. Essentially it will raise everyone's insurance rates and do nothing to reduce the actual high rates being charged by doctors and the hospitals. Making everyone purchase insurance without offering a public option is beyond asinine.

__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
Thomas Jefferson

filtherton

Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths to lack of insurance | Reuters

'nuff said.


Predictions of doom aside, what it will actually do remains to be seen. I don't know anyone who thinks it's a perfect bill, bit I do know that a lot of people, myself included, think it's a good start.

RogueGypsy

This whole argument blows big chunks.

First, Health care in any form is not a human right. You do not now, nor should you ever have the right to infringe on the life of another for your personal gain. Without said person volunteering to do so, or stating the conditions they see fit to impose. This is a free market society, we have the right to charge for our goods and services. If you disagree, see the invitation below. Oh by the way, my car broke down so I'm going to borrow yours. I may return it when I'm done, but more likely I'll let a friend take it instead. And while you're being so generous, I'll have your TV, stereo, job and house as well. They're all better than mine and although I didn't earn them, I'm sure you'll be glad to help out a fellow human being. Right?

Second, we as a nation, we were founded because we like to do things our own way. Affording liberties to the individuals that no other nation, in their grand socialist dreams, saw as worth while. Those principles put forth in the Constitution do set us apart from the rest of the world. And only by our model and military strength has the rest of the world been able to follow its path. Don't feel left out my Northern brothers, we could have let Russia walk across the Bering Sea at any time, you like Vodka and Borscht don't you? I hear Beats go good with beers to eh. Europe, France in particular, can kiss my shiny American ass. Not once, but twice we saved your pathetic, self righteous asses from a life of speaking German and eating sauerkraut. On second thought, France, you can tongue my ass.

I'll remind every United States Citizen here today, no matter your political, religious or social views. You are here today because you, or one of your ancestors, said 'Fuck You' to the rat hole over governed twat of a country from whence you were spawned. And now some of you would like to not only take that right from the rest of the world, but you would like to 'reform' us in their image. To you I say; there is an airport in every major city in the US, go find one, buy a ticket, get on a plane and have a great fuckin' day.

Now this is pure speculation, but I'm willing to bet that not one of you self important, save the world from US domination and carbon emissions, assholes, immigrated in your lifetime. Further more, I invite you to find and visit your oldest living relative, hopefully the one who did immigrate, so they can kick you in the nuts hard enough to pop your head out of your ass, before you get on a plane.

Back to reform and the Oblahblah plan to save the sick. It costs 940 Billion dollars, does not do as advertised and is not supported by the majority of informed or otherwise, citizens. Being mandatory is an affront to the values of our founders and our nation as a whole.

As far as people dying from treatable diseases. It is sad, I feel for their friends and families. More people die in car accidents every year, than treatable diseases. It must be time to remove all private transportation from the roads and pay up to replace it with public transportation to avoid those deaths. It will be better for us all.

Next we better get rid of all electricity, more electrical related deaths every year than untreated, treatable disease deaths, time for it to go.

The top four preventable killers in the US; Tobacco, high blood pressure, obesity and physical activity (really, check the CDC or PLoS). Obviously cigarettes, food and exercise should be completely eradicated immediately! They're a menace to society. Okay, I agree with getting rid of cigarettes and yes, I am a smoker. But that's up to me isn't it.

What? You say you're a good driver, you don't blow your hair dry in bathtub full of water, don't smoke, you eat healthy foods and exercise responsibly? Tough shit, 10% of the population is to fuckin' stupid, broke or inbred to keep themselves alive, so we have to cater to the lowest common denominator and because they're stupid, broke and inbred. You get to pay the bill. Happy Birthday Bitch.

The total cost of health care under Oblahblah's plan? You.


..

..




...

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

Tully Mars

That is unless of course your ancestors lived on the North American Continent 500-or 600 plus years ago. Then you're here because you manged to survive what the invading peoples did to your peoples.

Some of your arguments make some sense as long as you don't consider all the facts. Some are just complete nonsense talking points. No one's taking yours (or anyone else's) car, stereo etc...

America is a democracy. People vote others to lead it, to pass laws etc... The people leading it have been trying to pass some type of national health care for decades. Just like when Bush was in office, don't like? Then vote for change. Or you could take your own advice and go directly to one of the many great airports available to you.

Either way have a great day.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

SecretMethod70

Over 100 years, in fact.

A Brief History: Universal Health Care Efforts in the US | Physicians for a National Health Program

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

silent_jay

Wow, talk about ego, you alone saved Europe? Really you want to go down that path, I mean jesus if that's what American Exceptionalism is, well it's just some revisionist history bullshit.

SecretMethod70

Indeed, for one thing geography has played a huge role in American history. We're in a pretty good place here. I like that, but I'm under no illusion about how lucky we are for that.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

silent_jay

I mean I can appreciate being proud of ones country and contributions, but to claim they were more than they were just down plays and insults other contributions, especially some of the claims of single handedly stopping the Russians from 'walking across the Bering Sea', now I didn't know Russians could walk on water, I'd like to see that trick, or single handedly saving Europe, I mean I believe they were called the Allies for reason, meaning there were more than one involved, but hey my history may be off......

Baraka_Guru

From the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 25 (posted in another health care thread, I believe):

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

I suppose it is entirely possible that some Americans would want to overlook this, though I imagine if a nation would have aims to be the greatest in the world, this is one thing they might want to focus on...if it's a problem.

I think it's a problem.

I'll reiterate that the bill that was passed is problematic. It's not akin to the social democratic forms of health care that it should be. I think there is enough support for universal health care. I think the goal should be universal health care.

There are measurable benefits to providing health care to your public.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

RogueGypsy

I stand corrected, it was indeed Canada that stepped in when Europe and Africa were being over run.

Single handedly, no, but without us Germany rules Europe.

And if there were anywhere else in the world I could go and enjoy the freedoms I have here, I would have left long ago. I'm sure you also understood the sarcasm in the 're-purposing' of the possessions others have earned.

Why am I interested in the opinion of those who are unaffected by this bill? Okay, that's a little strong. I value the opinions of those who have first hand knowledge of an situation.

Natives? Ditto, every other country on the face of the earth, unless they were stopped.

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

dc_dux

The $940 billion over 10 years is offset...the biggest pieces are cutting $150 billion in overpayments to Medicare Advantage providers and $250 billion with a .9 percent tax increase on the Medicare payroll tax on people making more than $200k. Much of the rest is from long-term savings resulting from the bill's investment in technology.

Most polls show majority support for the legislation.

The founding fathers were the first to impose a mandatory health care payment:

When it comes to mandating health insurance, it began with the Founding Fathers who established the first health insurance program in America which was imposed by the federal government.

The effort began July 20, 1789 during the First Congress, which established a committee to come up with ways to ensure health of American merchant mariners, who worked in one of, if not the largest industry of the day.

In 1790, the Founding Fathers enacted a law requiring ships to carry medical supplies and provide health care for crew.

In 1798, those same Founding Fathers enacted the Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen which created the U.S. Public health Service as well as the Marine Hospital Services (MHS).

The law forced every merchant mariner to pay 20 cents a month into a fund to pay for their medical care. This was one of the first direct taxes on individual citizens.

At the same time, the federal government established a system of MHS hospitals in seaports and inland waterways.

---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 PM ----------

The founding fathers and the first Congress also imposed a mandate on all citizens under the Militia Act of 1792.

"That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder

Government mandates on the people are as old as the country itself.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

silent_jay

Well considering Canada declared in 1939, and Pearl wasn't bombed until 1941 when they Americans declared on December 11, I'd hardly say the US 'stepped in when Europe and Africa were being over run', but hey again, my history may be off, I don't follow this revisionist version some seem to use.....
see now that says one thing in the first 2 words, then the opposite in the final 6, I mean you don't know that for sure, it's saying the US contributed more than others, which is just false, al lthe Allied countries made sacrifices, and it's just the American ego getting involved again, you contributed to the war, be happy, even if you happened to show up 2 years after the dance started......

dc_dux

Without the French arms and money, would there be a US?

Long live Lafayette.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Tully Mars

Really? I always thought the US, Canada and the Aussies were in a small group of nations that ran the natives off. Maybe I need a history lesson.


Soooo...

Who did the Chinese run (or slaughter) out of China?

The Japanese out of Japan?

The Russians out of Russia?

The Germans out of Germany?

The French out of France?

English out of England?

Indians out of India?

I remember reading about Rome trying to take over a bunch of places, didn't end well if I read correctly. And the Brits did their best at several places but they're pretty much back on the island last I heard.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

dippin

First off, let's start with the bits of revisionist history:

The US was merely a supporting actor in the defeat of Nazi Germany. The bulk of the German army was on the eastern front, where they had more than twice as many troops as they had in the west. You might say that being ruled by Stalin's Soviet Union is not much of an upgrade over Hitler, but the fact remains.

As to the "ancestors who said fuck you," you mean other than the Natives (as already pointed out), the Africans, and the Mexicans who used to own about half the land that is now the US, right?

This isn't to deny the great things the US has done. But it has also done some pretty shitty things which also must not be forgotten.


In any case, the reform was passed through all the institutions set up by the founding fathers and so on. You can't at the same time preach about the exceptionalism and perfection of the form of government set up originally and then decry the outcome of those same form of government. This health care reform isn't an imposition from abroad, but a home grown product.

Tully Mars

You don't know much about the conservative movement in the US, do you?

I mean it was all the rage to question and or insult the POTUS during war time when Clinton held the office, as it is now with Obama. But when Bush Jr. was in the Oval Office it was nothing less then treason.

Just watch Fox News, they'll fill you in on all the awful stuff Obama's up to. Of course for eight years you heard nothing but how great the POTUS was and how anyone who question him was a treasonous sore loser and should leave the country immediately, if not sooner.


I bet right now they're working in a way to prove that by visiting the troops in Afghanistan Obama is really a socialist.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Charlatan

What's amusing is that many will just look at you blankly when you point out the hypocrisy of their blind support of POTUS during the Bush years versus what they are doing to the same institution today.

They seem to have forgotten the rhetoric of the past.

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

RogueGypsy

Thus the unless they were stopped part.

Romans? Yeah, they had no impact on the world. That's why we use the Latin Alphabet. Brits? No impact their either.

Looking back at almost any region, several groups moved into a single area, lived either unknown to each other or in harmony. Until the stronger group rose up and either slaughtered or assimilated the weaker. So, which is worse, the assimilation/annihilation of a culture or what you see in modern day US, Canada and Australia? What about Mexico's indigenous people? Not a lot of Mayans and Incas running around these days.

Just because it's recent history, doesn't make it the only history.

Japan has it's own little history:

In 645, Nakatomi no Kamatari started the era of the Fujiwara clan that was to last until the rise of the military class (samurai) in the 11th century. In the same year, the Taika reforms were realized: A new government and administrative system was established after the Chinese model. All land was bought by the state and redistributed equally among the farmers in a large land reform in order to introduce the new tax system that was also adopted from China. This was after taking over several island islands now part of Japan, who did not (some still do not) consider them selves Japanese.

---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 PM ----------


All history is revisionist. The victor writes history, it is never completely represented.

And you are right, Germany was getting stomped by Russia, so it is more likely Europe would be Russian speaking now.

It may sound as though I'm claiming we were the soul reason, that was not my intent. However, without us, it would have gone differently. Europe was defeated, North Africa over run. I find it hard to believe Russia would have stopped at Berlin. Why not keep pushing south all the way to Africa? The hard work was already done for them.

I'm also not defending our government, but the founding ideals of a nation. Our government went off the reservation long ago. We the people, have lost control of it and that will be our down fall. This last act is just one more in a long line of atrocities committed in the name of the American people, by a government run-a-muck.

Home grown health care? I'd say politically manipulated health care. I don't think any one believes that everyone in the Senate and Congress read and understands this 2000 page bill and it's 500 page education bill. So why would they vote for it? Not a foreign imposition? That doesn't even makes sense when half the arguments for it contain the phrase 'we are the only industrialized nation that doesn't have it'. It also makes no sense in that, there are there are vastly superior alternatives that limit government involvement. Yet they've chosen to model it on existing systems. That is foreign influence.

Not to mention I find it odd, debating this with a Canadian.

Not that I dislike Canadians. I live in a border town and have as many Canadian neighbors as American. I just find it odd debating an issue with someone non-vested.

---------- Post added at 07:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 PM ----------

Oop, my bad Dippin. I guess 'the ether' could be in the US.

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

dippin

I'm not Canadian and I actually live in the US, if I am the person you are referring to.