dogzilla

It looks like there might be a little more to this than people being incited to violence by TV and radio talk programs.

According to the article linked below, police had experience with problems in the area before and had warned Bill Sparkman to be careful. Also, police knew the area where he was found had problems with meth and other drug trafficking.

So no, I'm not ready to attribute this to talk show hosts inciting people to violence.

I could make similar claims about some of the more liberal websites I used to read a few years ago. I have regularly read material on democrats.com or moveon.org that might incite unbalanced people to do things they shouldn't.

I hope they catch whoever is responsible and make an example of him.

Slain census worker was warned about area - Crime & courts- msnbc.com

WASHINGTON - When Bill Sparkman told retired trooper Gilbert Acciardo that he was going door-to-door collecting census data in rural Kentucky, the former cop drew on years of experience for a warning: "Be careful."

...

Manchester Police Chief Jeff Culver, whose agency is not part of the investigation because the death was outside city limits, said the area where Sparkman was found has a history of problems with prescription drug and methamphetamine trading.

"That part of the county, it has its ups and downs. We'll get a lot of complaints of drug activity. They'll whittle away, then flourish back up," Culver said. He said officers last month rounded up 40 drug suspects, mostly dealers, and made several more arrests in subsequent days.

dksuddeth

sure. see the word FED carved in to a government volunteer and automatically start looking for me.

I hear there's lots of open space in virginia, can I come hang out with you for awhile?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

aceventura3

This is a tragedy and in no way should what I write be interpreted as justifying this crime. I don't know what the motivation was, if it was related to talk shows or something else. However, one pet peeve I have always had about law enforcement activities is when they do "sting" operations or use undercover type operations to investigate illegal activity. In certain parts of this country Meth labs are very common, rural Kentucky is one of those areas. This gives an idea and I bet it under-reports the problem:



http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/map_lab_seizures.html

My theory is that rather than talk shows, what we may have is paranoid Meth lab operators and an innocent "federal government" census worker. The two don't mix in an environment where a knock on the door, a government official asking questions and drug related illegal activity is taking place. When law enforcement pretends to be something other than what they are through "stings", it puts innocent people at risk. This, to me, is a "sending a message" type crime to anyone who comes into that area uninvited.

This is all I have to say. Don't ask me a question if you don't want me to respond further.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Willravel

Give me a break, a paranoid meth cooker would not hang and then carve, because that's only going to invite law enforcement to the area. A first grader could predict that. If it just looked like a regular murder, it would not garner national attention and there wouldn't be pressure to investigate.

This was done to attract attention, and it was done at a time when radical anti-governmental sentiment is boiling over. This isn't rocket science.

The_Dunedan

You don't have much experience dealing with tweakers, do you? Meth-heads are DUMB. Their brains look like swiss cheese on an MRI, and there's a good reason. A'int a whole lot left goin' on up there after a few weeks, let alone the -years- that people spend addicted to that shit. Tweakers do dumb shit like that all the time, like the neighbor of mine who called in to the Sherriff's Office to report that his stashes of Meth and pot had been stolen (still in jail), or the local boy who decided that, in order to avoid tipping off the authorities by having an electric-bill spike in the neighborhood, decided to heat his lab with a KeroSun space-heater.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that this was an act of misguided political violence. Given the locale, however, I'm equally willing to believe that this is the work of brain-fucked tweakers or Mexican pot-farmers. And trust me, the Mexicans -WOULD- carve something like that. Those Cartel boys are more than mean-crazy enough. Coupla Cuban dumbasses (lotsa Floridian retirees up here, in fact a whole rural neighbohood is known as Little Havana) who robbed 'em a few years back ended up floating down the French Broad River minus their heads...both kinds...which were in turn found scattered around the county in the dumpsters of various Latino or Latino-friendly businesses where they'd be sure to be recognized.

Tully Mars

I'd like a lot more info regarding the investigation before jumping to any conclusion(s.) There's too many possibilities regarding motive to say exactly why this happened. The area seems to be a known problem and the guy was warned. So there's that. He could have stumbled on a meth lab, still or illegal grow operation. Could also be a right wing nut job. Could be a left wing nut job trying to make the right look bad. Remember the the chick who carved a backward "B" into her face to make Obama supporters look bad? Bet she wishes she went with an "O." I also think KirStang has a point, spouses, lovers, business partners and known associates make up something like 90% of all homicides in the US. My guess is the team working on this is tracking down everyone the guy knows, if nothing else just to clear them off the list of suspects. The last thing the officers and DA want is to find someone they think did it and have the defense show up in court with another viable suspect the police never cleared. "So you're telling the court his business partner hated his guts and told people he was going to kill the guy?" "Det. did you know this?" "No"!?!" "So you never checked to see if he had an alibi?" "No!, Seriously, never checked this info out? So for all you know he had motive and he could have done it, right?"

Bottom line more info is needed before making any conclusions as to what this means... if anything.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Slims

Will, if the "Paranoid Meth Cookers" were logical, they probably wouldn't be cooking meth and living in poverty in Kentucky.

They would either be honest working men or successful meth cookers somewhere else.

Our planet has no shortage of "crazy" why would you expect someone cooking meth to be well balanced?


This may well be exactly what you propose, but that would require someone to be even more crazy: Someone who kills someone because they resent government intrusion is just asking for a whole lot more of it. Especially when they then go ahead and carve "FED" into them. If you just want to be left alone, whether because you are anti-government or a drug-producer this crime is not in your best interest.

It may be someone looking to make a personal statement, but I doubt you can then go so far as to assume they were also Glen Beck fans.

Personally I resent the questions being asked by the Census, I feel they should only ask the number and ages of those in my household. I agree with Glen Beck on this point, but I fail to see how my opinion is subversive and dangerous to the point where it is inciting people to kill government employees.


Even if the perpetrator of this crime was such a person, why would they go after the low-hanging fruit (the census worker) when so many bigger targets are easily available? Again, the answer just doesn't make sense.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

roachboy

huh, well first off if there's data on a publicly availble database about the lab distribution then they aren't terribly clandestine, now are they?

fact is that no-one *knows* what the motive behind this is just as no-one *knows* any number of other particularities about any number of other events. but it is nonetheless obvious that there has been both a wave of far right agitation on largely paranoid grounds around the census in particular, about the federal government in general.

it is obvious that in this case, because it points to problems with conservative political actions, folk from the right would be calling for all to be circumspect while in the various depressing (from logical, evidentiary and political viewpoints) thread and/or subthreads about acorn, anything goes with the same people in terms of reckless use of spotty evidence to draw ridiculous conclusions.

so if i understand the subtext, it comes down to the usual partisan nonsense from the right, covered by the usual projections as to everyone else, such that these actions hardly appear actions at all, but rather are Reasonable Responses to What Everyone Does.

but perhaps the same circumspection conservatives are calling for from those who link this crime to the political actions carried out by the neo-fascist set within the conservative coalition should also be asked of them--you don't know that the crime is *not* directly linked to this political agitation either. and the "demonstrations" offered are not compelling.

fact is that we won't know until we know, right?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Tully Mars

Isn't that data from known/found labs? Info like this is usually used to show where activities are known to be occurring.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

aceventura3

You assume people who would operate a meth lab and or use meth think the way you would. The criminal mind is unique. The criminal mind on drugs adds further to the problem.


I have attended a few seminars on the meth lab problem conducted by law enforcement officials. During one presentation, he used humor to illustrate the obvious but extreme risks being taken by people who "cook" meth. He showed pictures of the accidents. He also, showed how easily it was to follow the trail to their labs. I am not going to be able to educate you on the issue - but if you are inclined I would suggest you look into it. It is not an urban issue or a California issue, there is a very unique culture to this, with some similarities to moonshine.

So, again you can go off on me and make assumptions that I am clueless or you could take an open minded approach. Your choice has been made clear, your mind seems to be made up. Have fun with that.

---------- Post added at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 PM ----------

When you look at Missouri statistics you will see a spike. At one point they changed the way they report the activity. Law enforcement officials will tell you that "official" numbers a vastly under reported. One problem is that it is very easy to get everything needed to start a lab at the local hardware store, and those who are "smart" don't blow their houses up - but a good investigator can find the labs given time and resources to follow-up.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Walt

Lot of baseless assumptions flying around here. "FED" could have just as easily meant that the guy was given a delicious spaghetti dinner before he was killed.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

There's no such thing as "the criminal mind". That's an oversimplified term and idea that's sold to the public by an ignorant media. Everyone is capable of committing a crime.
It's a serious issue in Riverside (and to a lesser degree in Oakland), actually, but that's not particularly relevant.

FED is where things go from "I dunno" to "oh shoot, that's probably" territory. What you're asking us to believe is that the meth head was clever and motivated enough to hang and carve FED specifically on the chest of someone that doesn't even closely resemble a DEA agent, but that the idea of this being political motivated is jumping the gun.

aceventura3

Given the nature of posting on sites like this, just about everything has to be condensed. Why do we need to play these kind of games - did you really not understand the point or are you just being argumentative? Criminals generally think they can get away with their crimes. Non-criminals are often people who avoid criminal acts for fear of being caught among other reasons (Do I need to further qualify that general statement further taking us off point or do you understand?).

Relative, again the problem is much bigger in rural southern states.

There are (generally) two types of meth labs. There are the people who "use" and have a lab and there are people with labs to make money. The people in it simply to make money can be a tad bit more organized and ruthless.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

mixedmedia

Seems like there's a lot of speculation flying about on both sides. Both conveniently political. pfft.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

scout

Any of you all ever been to eastern Kentucky? We go there a lot to ride ATVs and have a good time.Probably half of the people there are poor, white, poorly educated and vote Democrat because their daddy and his daddy before voted Democrat. By some accounts it's also the pot growing capital of the US. I'm no federal agent by any means and there's some places in Eastern Kentucky I wouldn't get outa my car even if it broke down. You never know you might stumble on something you have no business knowing about or someone that might fear you might stumble on something you have no business knowing about. I seriously doubt there was any "political" motivation like some of you suppose. It's probably more of a fear of the government as a whole rather than the beginning of a Republican revolt. I doubt they watch Glenn Beck or any political show. They was probably just fucked up on some good moonshine and meth and things got out of control. Now a poor soul is dead and they will get caught and spend the rest of their lives in jail.

__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
Thomas Jefferson

KirStang

A K-Fed Tattoo gone wrong?

Sun Tzu

EDIT

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

dippin

?

Is that an attempt to say that gun ownership is not up and religious services attendance are not at all time highs?

Data from the NCIS shows gun sales increasing every year, with quite significant increases between 2007 and 2009.

As for religious membership, the 1890 census showed that at that time 45% of the population were members of a church/synagogue/mosque. That number rose to 58% in the 1920s, and currently has floated around the sixties.

Here's a graph from one of the best books on data on religion around (The Churching of America, 1776-2005), based on census estimates:




The fact is that all those who are quick to decry the fall of civilization and this and that are all wrong in most counts.

Religion is up, taxes are down, etc. etc.

Sun Tzu

It was me initially posting, reading what I posted was a complete thread jack (my bad for not just hitting back) and taking it down. Sometimes I get so caught up in the direction some of these conversations go I forget what the op wanted to discuss.

Please take note I only posted part of your quote, I had mentioned nothing of gun ownership or religion in my deleted post.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

ottopilot

We're talking about the "cornbread mafia" down here. They would do something like this, and have done much worse. I live 2 hrs from this place and know an ATF agent with stories about these people that are disturbing. This is a world unto itself. Writing FED on someone's chest and hanging them with the intent to be found is not a stretch (NPI) ... these people are ruthless and brutal.

This is not political. You know why Obama wont send the Gitmo folks down to Clay or Laurel county... or anywhere in eastern KY... they might turn up as road-side jerky... and that might be percieved as cruel and unusual.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dippin

sorry, I assumed the "EDIT" was like the "fixed" people often use on forums, and since you took out the part of the sentence on guns and religion, I thought you meant that those were false.

sorry if I also inadvertently threadjacked.

Plan9

Good thing it's in the political forum. Although Tilted Paranoia is rather lonely these days.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dippin

With regards to the case itself, I think it is a weird enough case to preclude forming any theories about the motivation behind it. Especially since there has been a few changes in the story as originally described. Some police claim that FED wasnt carved, but written with a marker, and that his feet were touching the ground. So it's hard to know if there are any other corrections forthcoming or not.
In any case, while I am against any sort of legal action against Beck (at least of the criminal kind), I would hope that people would evaluate his actions without having someone take him up on his lunatic theories and do something. The things he says are egregious enough that I would hope rational people would distance themselves from him without having to wait for a looney to act on his "command."

Willravel

New information from Rachel Maddow:
- Jerry Weaver said that the body was naked, his hands and feet bound with duct tape
- The census ID badge was taped to his head and shoulder area
So far there's no evidence that this is drug related, and several pieces of evidence that suggest this has something to do with the federal government.

ottopilot

It doesn't have to be drug related, it's most likely "outsider" or wrong place at the wrong time related. It seems like you want this to be some sort of validation for the trend in manufactured right-wing anti-Obama fear-mongering.

For your benefit, here's what really happened... he accidentally walked in on an Obama/Hitler/witch-doctor photoshop party while forgetting to wear his Sarah Palin tshirt and KKK head-sheet. When he failed the standard Glenn Beck "commies and negros we want to kill fact quiz", they grabbed the duct-tape... and that was all she wrote.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Rekna

Right now the most probable and logical explanation is that he was killed because he was a census worker (hence the tags being taped to him and the FED message on his chest).

It is sad really. Good job Glenn and Michelle.

dksuddeth

I guess we won't see you laying any blame whatsoever for the federal government taking too much power and growing larger than it should be?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

This census worker wasn't taking anyone's power, dk. He was volunteering to carry out a Constitutional responsibility.

ottopilot

And let's not forget the likes of Rachel Maddow...


... and Keith Olbermann for inspiring the school-front murder of the anti-abortion protester.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dksuddeth

first off, it is my contention that IF this murder was actually committed over a political issue, the individual(s) responsible crossed the line. The victim was indeed a volunteer and should not have been killed.

secondly, I said before (several times) that the continued encroachment by the feds was going to end up in bloodshed, warranted or not. It's only going to get worse from here on out.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

ring

Taking the census is not encroachment.

It sounds like your trigger finger is itching for a fight, Duane.

It's creepy and scary as hell.

dksuddeth

and for the most part, I agree. requiring me to buy health insurance and threatening me with a year in prison is.

for the most part, it's not a fight i'm looking to start or even get in to, however, when I refuse to comply, those that come after me to enforce what I consider an unconstitutional law or policy better come prepared to kill me or die trying.

maybe something you should consider is how far would the government have to go before YOU decide that maybe it's time to fight back?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

making me carry health insurance does not come close to crossing the line where I'll start opening fire on government officials

dksuddeth

how about jailing you for it when you don't? if not, what is your line?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

well considering I HAVE insurance, I won't get jailed, so it's not really an issue, is it?

dksuddeth

fantastic, for you. I spend what extra money I have on my wifes insurance and medical expenses. this leaves nothing for me to get my own.

so where is your line?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

I'll let you know when I've finished my manifesto

dksuddeth

why is it that whenever someone is pressed on an issue like this, they immediately move to some sort of remark meant to be derogative?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

because the truth is, I don't sit around worrying about government oppression all day. I'm sure there's I have a line, but it's unlikely to ever be crossed, so why waste my mental energy fretting about it all the time?