dksuddeth

which almost guarantees you won't see it coming until it's too late. did you have this mindset from 2000-2008?

it sounds like that line is somewhere close to 'when they start lining up my family and friends for execution', or is that not far enough?

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

I never feared that the Bush administration was going to create a totalitarian state.


I'll let you know when that happens.

FuglyStick

this thread brought to you with limited commercial interruptions by the Kinks

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Willravel

The facts:
• Census worker found strapped to a tree (not hung by the neck)
• "FED" carved into the flesh in the chest area
• census ID was duct taped to the head and neck area
• the area is known for being overrun with drug users
• anti-government sentiment is increasing, including recent instances of violence
• the intelligence community has been warning of an increase in "conservative terrorism"
• several recent anti-government or conservative terrorists have been demonstrated to watch Fox News
• Congresswoman Bachmann, on the Glenn Beck program on Fox News, gave insane and paranoid warnings against the census

samcol

Are you trying to imply Backmann, Beck and Fox News should face some kind of criminal charges?

Do we really want to go down that road? If someone's making direct threats on people that's one thing (there are already laws for this), but you can't start arresting people like Backmann and Beck for being stupid.

I can't stand either of these morons but they shouldn't be silenced by the government and I think that's what you're trying to get at without saying it.

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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Willravel

I'm not an attorney and I'm not sure what specifically constitutes culpability in an instance like this. I'm not qualified to answer the legal question.

Legal issues aside, if this killing was in some way inspired by their hate and fear mongering, of course they do bear some responsibility. I know you to be a conservative, but I also think you're objective enough to recognize that when someone in a position of power or authority uses that power or authority to inspire hatred there's something wrong. Did you watch the Bachmann interview? Have you heard her speak at all?

ottopilot

First of all... Clay County Coroner Jim Trosper said Friday that the word FED was written with a felt-tip pen... look up the coroner's report. That fact, which you had wrong, doesn't change the nature of a hideous murder, it just takes an edge off the sensationalism you're hoping will gain momentum.

Another sensationalized fact that you had incorrect... the preliminary cause of death was asphyxiation. According to a Kentucky State Police statement, the body was hanging from a tree with a noose around the neck, yet it was in contact with the ground. Nothing is conclusive as to how he was killed.

The irrelevant hyperbole regarding anti-government sentiment and the POTENTIAL for "conservative terrorism" is propaganda plain and simple. Show me an example of conservative terrorism that doesn't include Timothy McVeigh and demonstrates an actual trend instead of individuals acting on their own. The report mentioning the POTENTIAL of conservative terrorism submitted by the dept of Homeland Security was challenged and formally retracted as unsubstantiated and irresponsible... unsubstantiated and irresponsible, just like the article in the OP tries to do. Take a murder story without supporting facts to inject a political statement based on nothing but innuendo and cliche's ... irresponsible propaganda.

Do you not believe that any political or ideological entity would attempt to influence public opinion by promoting fear against persons, organizations, or beliefs? What makes this administration any different than the others regarding political warfare? Sure, we'll leak some sensational unfounded statements about conservative terrorism and hateful religious white-folks to some willing partisans (useful idiots) in the media, unofficially nurture the intensity, and quickly pull back if it ever comes back on them (homeland security statement). It's still out there, like a person accused of child molestation, publicly tried in the media, then later proven innocent, but the damage is done... people still suspicious... false seeds are well planted... hurray for our side! ..right? Like stepping around an injured person on the sidewalk on your way to a human rights rally.

This is where the outrage should be... The enthusiasm I see here, and in the media, gleefully attempting to demonize citizens as POTENTIAL TERRORISTS with nothing more than feelings or baseless information at most. This is highly disturbing. To paraphrase... "when they came for me, there was no one left to speak on my behalf"... or to a lesser extent... something about rocks and glass houses or history repeating itself comes to mind. Continuing down this shared road of partisan hackery is leading us to dark destinations.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Willravel

I saw that it was carved into his chest in an earlier article, but apparently they jumped the gun.
He was not hung as in lynched, that was what I was trying to say.
You can't say what is or is not irrelevant at this point because we don't know who is responsible. If it turns out that the person responsible murdered this census worker because of anti-government sentiment, it would be entirely relevant.

As for your pattern, here:
RICHARD POPLAWSKI, Pittsburgh Gunman, Kills 3 Police Officers
Scott Roeder, Abortion Doctor Murder Suspect, Warns Of More Violence
RICHARD POPLAWSKI, Pittsburgh Gunman, Kills 3 Police Officers
The New York Times > Log In
Jeff Hoard - The Idiocracy Index – Minuteman group arrested for murdering family - True/Slant
Jim D. Adkisson Charged In Tennessee Church Shooting That Killed 2
I've been asking this for a while, can you please name all of the liberal terrorists that killed people during the Bush administration?
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and murders people like a duck...

timalkin

..

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

Willravel

I went ahead and bolded each instance's connection to conservatism because I was worried people might not see it. I guess you still missed it. Anyway, I'm not talking about an organized movement, because in most cases terrorism isn't the result of central organization. What I'm saying is there's a pattern emerging.

So, for the millionth time, can you please name all of the liberal terrorists that killed people during the Bush administration? Not "welfare people" you inexplicably hate, but real terrorists?

timalkin

..

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

dippin

If there was an award for the most non-sensical, histrionic, misinformed post of all time, this would certainly take the cake.

It is amazing how you substitute your delusions for reality. First, let's point out the obvious that, if Willravel is right (which Im not sure he is), he is talking about politically motivated murder. Are you really implying that welfare recipients who have committed murder, have done so for political reasons?

That aside, whatever delusions you have about who the welfare recipients are and what they do, are just that: your delusions.

Welfare recipients are almost all female, whites are still the majority, and a very good chunk are rural. They are no more likely to commit murder than other people in similar backgrounds who are NOT on welfare.

Willravel

There are so many liberal terrorists that you literally can't even name one that killed anyone during the Bush administration. I named 5 conservative terrorists that killed people in the past few months alone, and you can't come up with one name over an 8 year period.

Derwood

how is he supposed to know the name of every welfare recipient?

Poppinjay

That's because he's being all cutesy about it. There are terrorist groups with stated conservative agendas in this country. And when elections don't go their way, they start taking action.

Not by voter drives of course. But by forming groups like the Posse Commitatus. The Michigan Militia. When it comes down to the true calling of this country to rule by democracy, the first act of these cowards is to pick up a gun.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

FuglyStick

I reckon asphyxiation is SO much more preferable. That was nice of them.

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KirStang

ah nvm. Probably best I don't get in to a heated political discussion. Carry on.

Derwood

WillRavel didn't ask for people with posters, he asked for actual murders

dc_dux

I suspect law enforcement agencies have more concern with the growing recruitment efforts taking place since the election by and among white supremacist groups - skinheads, neo-nazis, aryan nation, white militia groups, "christian" patriot groups, etc. - than with code pink or MoveOn.org...or even the ANSWER anarchists.

In fact, it goes back well before the last election.

The FBI released a report last year (under Bush) on the growing "White Supremacist Recruitment of Military Personnel Since 9/11" (report - pdf) .... the concern since the election is that these groups have been become much more vocal and expansive in their recruitment efforts

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

KirStang

Michelle Malkin Obama condemns Muslim attack on Arkansas Army recruiters…not

Black islamic convert, anti american and anti-military kills two army recruiters.

Oh noes! Liberal terrorism!!!

I stand by my original point. You're still making a logical jump by imputing the violence to a political affinity.

Give it a rest.

---------- Post added at 07:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------



Ok?

Not saying what people on either side are doing are right, but what I am saying is Don't be too quick to attribute something to a group you dislike.

Derwood

it's less of a jump in logic than "it was just some back woods meph cookers", which makes absolutely zero sense

KirStang

I suppose. I guess I'll wait and see for updates.

Willravel

Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad not only targeted a military recruiting center, but a report from DHS says he was also targeting a daycare center, Jewish institutions, a Baptist church, military bases and federal buildings. He seems much more like a religious extremist than anything close to a liberal. If his aim was a broader anti-war statement there's no reason whatsoever to target daycare centers, Jewish institutions, or a Baptist church.

Source

But I appreciate the effort.

Derwood

Every president gets death threats every day. Threats, protest posters, blog posts.....these aren't on the same planet as actually killing people

dksuddeth

Will, does it really matter? what we're really talking about is millions of people trying to draw the one solid line that everyone can agree and say 'this is where it stops'. it's never gonna happen. are there some instances where the perpetrator is an idiot? hell yes. Are there others where the individual just might be totally justified? no doubt in my mind. But that is not a decision that wholly rests in the palms of your hands. It comes down to the individual who contemplates those acts. some of us might think them insane, while others don't. that does not make them any less honorable or reprehensible.

---------- Post added at 08:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------

not even. the first act of a coward is to denigrate the use of a gun. learn some history before pretending to know something about what drives people and governments.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

I believe it does. As a liberal, I'm not in any kind of position to strike at the heart of what I call the ignorant extremist wing of conservatism. I deal with the ignorant extremist wing of liberalism constantly, but they're never the ones going out and murdering people.

You, samcol, aladdin, ace, kirstang, timal, dunedan, etc., etc. are all conservatives, likely active in the conservative community. Remember when I said that what Reverend Wright said wasn't just wrong, it was incredibly stupid? His race baiting was damaging instead of constructive and had no place in intelligent conversation, let alone a massive church. It was bullshit, and I looked past my own ideological alignment to call it what it was. It's time for conservatives to do the same thing. I don't give a flying fuck if someone thinks Jews control the world banks, if President Obama is a communist, nazi, Kenyan Manchurian candidate, if you think the federal government is building concentration camps for overweight, white, middle class people, if Barack Obama is in the Bible as the antichrist, or if you think abortion is genocide. As soon as you start murdering people, you're fucking wrong. Richard Poplawski isn't a brave freedom fighter, he's a cowardly, paranoid murderer. Scott Roeder wasn't saving the lives of fetuses, he's a madman and a villain. James W. von Brunn isn't saving the world from evil super-Jews, he's a racist old fuck that killed innocent people. Don't you see? This isn't your glorious rebellion against the forces of tyranny, these are losers and paranoids with guns going out and killing innocent people.

And yet, here you are insisting that these are somehow connected in drawing the line in the sand to stop a tyrannical government:
...I'm sorry but you're wrong. What they're doing isn't honorable, it's dishonorable.

If you want to fight tyranny, get people to stop watching propaganda and read the Constitution. If you want to fight tyranny, run for public office. If you want to fight tyranny, do it from within the system so that a bunch of innocent people don't have to die. This isn't a movie, it's real life.

ratbastid

See, this is where we part ways. What, aside from self defense, justifies murder? What could possibly justify stringing a 51 year old school teacher up to a tree? Don't go "role of government" on me, and I'm not particularly interested in a legal reading on it either. I'm asking: in your view, morally, what possible motive for THIS murder would be justified?

dogzilla

You forget about groups like the Weather Underground and Black Panthers. They weren't active during the Bush years, but liberal-leaning terrorists

Cimarron29414

Willravel: The "Glenn Beck" of anti-Glenn Beck sentiment.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

dc_dux

WTF? They havent been active in years.

You can certainly make a case about homegrown Muslim (al queda wannabees) extremist groups...but it would be a stretch to characterize them as liberal-leaning.

As opposed to the conservative white supremacists groups and libertarian anti-government groups, which in many cases overlap.

These groups pose a much greater threat than any liberal leaning group. And, that is not simply my judgement, it is a growing concern of law enforcement agencies.

Just waiting for someone to say Timothy McVeigh was really a liberal.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

dogzilla

What difference does that make? As far as more recent terrorism actions, some of the eco-terrorist groups like ELF qualify.

Plan9

Yeaaaah, not too many cases of eco-terrorists killing people. Rumor has it they specifically forbid such methods in their charters.

They rely on property damage (arson) to be heard. Such criminal acts may cause death eventually but it is not their intent.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dc_dux

And those damn PETA poopers ruining perfectly good fur coats.

Thats right up there with those white supremacists/neo-nazi/anti-gov types.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

dogzilla

If you define the parameters of an argument narrowly enough you can win any argument.

So I guess if you specify that only someone who intentionally killed someone while committing a terrorist act between the hours of 9AM and 5PM from May 1 2009 thru Sept 1 2009 is a terrorist, you can exclude any liberal terrorists.

The reality is that there are both liberal and conservative terrorists, as well as some just plain old terrorists that want to cause a ruckus. All of them should be executed after they are convicted.

dksuddeth

you might want to reread my post above. I did not claim to justify this murder, in fact I think I said it was totally unjustified because the man in question was simply a volunteer.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

kutulu

They weren't active during the Regan years. How is a group that hasn't been active for 30 years relevant to the current discussion?

Plan9

Well, better to be narrow than to paint with a brush the size of a billboard and make generalizations big enough to fill Yankee stadium.

I think intent is the most important thing in this specific threadjack. I do not put someone who burns down an unoccupied townhouse construction site to protest suburban sprawl in the same boat as someone who blows a truckload of ANFO in front of a federal building downtown to Stick It To The Man. To do such would be a great disservice to our justice system. Check your belly for a star, Sneetches. Let's be civilized... its often all we have left in the end.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dogzilla

Willravel's trying to to make the point that terrorist activity is the fault of conservatives. That's obviously not true, and timeframe is irrelevant.

Cimarron29414

When the media only has two political parties to choose from (Retardicans or Dumbocrats), then there is a fifty-fifty chance of associating a particular crime with "your" party - regardless of whether the crime's motivations were political or not.

I don't know whether this guy was killed as an anti-census act or not. Neither do any of you right now.

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Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

FuglyStick

People are really stretching to equate property damage, civil disobedience, and general muckfuckery with KILLING SOMEONE in this thread. This is why no one takes you seriously, conservatives, because all logic goes out the window when you are defending your "cause."

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