Cimarron29414

Didn't mean to imply that anyone did label me in this thread - but one can't deny that labels are the name of the game on Tilted Politics.

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Derwood

it's not much of a stretch to label someone (you) who is defending the conservative media outlets (while bashing Obama) as conservative.

Cimarron29414

...and yet I'm not a conservative. Wow, see how easy that was!

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Derwood

I understand you're not. I'm just explaining why it's easy to mistake you as one

ratbastid

I don't come into Tilted Politics anymore, but I can't help but remark on the STAGGERING irony of this observation, in a thread discussing Fox News. Also:

They're not actually a news organization at all, by anyone's definition but their own. And only then because calling it "Fox Propaganda" would probably cut into ad sales.

Cimarron29414

I can't help but remark at the STAGGERING irony of you making this statement in Tilted Politics!

To be clear, I am not defending Fox News. I am defending the media's right to print/omit whatever they want. The people can decide whether they should be "punished" by not watching them. The most recent ACORN videos (great entertainment, BTW) were ignored for 3 days by most media outlets. I don't care - they had a right not to show it. The people will decide whether they made the right call.

This manner of policing the media is far preferable to the idea that Obama would sign an executive order FORCING the media to run his political-sale of healthcare reform to Congress.

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Derwood

I don't think Fox News should HAVE to show anything about Obama at all.

That said, I'm free to criticize their decision not to

Cimarron29414

I am talking about post 24, 25, 27 and 28 - not about anything you have said.

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Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

flstf

I read recently that one of their producers was orchestrating tea baggers to demonstrate louder when their commentator began his live report. I guess its all part of the staged show disguised as news.

Derwood

I thought they were being sarcastic, but maybe not

---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------

Hey, check out the motives of the ACORN video folks:

Daily Kos: O'Keefe said he went after ACORN because it registers minorities likely to vote against Republicans

Cimarron29414

Even if his motif was less than honorable, it doesn't change the corruption which is so evident in those videos. We should all be thankful of when two ambitious nobodies protect us because the professional media will not.

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Derwood

so they caught, what, 4 or 5 bad low level employees possibly being bad? thank god they came to the nation's rescue

dippin

I would have a lot less problems with them if they released all videos, unedited. Releasing only the bad ones is dishonest, in my opinion. There is no defense for what those low level employees did, but let's not pretend that this was anything other than it was meant to be, which is an attempt to bring down an organization who for the most part registers people who are not likely to vote for a given party.

connyosis

Yup, can be seen here: Fox News Producer Caught Rallying the Crowds During the 9/12 Protests | Video Cafe

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Cimarron29414

The only point to releasing the alleged good-behavior videos is so that people who love ACORN can go "see, they aren't systemically bad - we don't have to listen to any of this." So, why release those videos and allow this to be ignored? If it was just one office, I would be with you - I promise. But 5 is systemic.

And you are correct, ACORN does register people who are not likely to vote...dead people, babies, Elvis, Mickey Mouse, ...

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Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Derwood

ACORN made the huge mistake of paying it's voter registration people on a "per-registration" basis, thus the long list of fake registrations.

That said, dead people, Elvis and Mickey Mouse DID NOT VOTE. Don't conflate registration fraud with voter fraud.

roachboy

the conservative=specific hair across the ass about ACORN is a joke. not worth bothering with. another fake issue to keep those folk occupied with being Angry About Something. it's hard not to tip over into taking swipes at the mindsets behind this. luckily, it's not worth the bother either.

if you want to move out from repeating the obvious--that fox news is a conservative political outlet masquerading as a news source---and the problems that this fact both reflects and exacerbates---the erasure of the line between political statements and matters of fact---and go to a systemic problem, one that explains much about the sort of idiot politics that are possible in the united states, you might consider the question of framing.

infotainment in the states across media is routinely presented without context but with lots and lots of punchy, charged rhetoric. so the information is itself flat--atomized by being ripped out of the environments from which it flows and to which it refers, so the contexts that make events meaningful---but to keep you, consumer, engaged, there's lots of zippy-to-inflammatory language to help you figure out how to React to Situations the understanding of which is not possible, given your access route.

http://dartcenter.org/content/how-news-is-framed
The Effect of News "Frames" | Dart Center for Journalism & Trauma

these are a couple bullet-y corporate-speak style introductions to framing.
they give an idea of what the term means, what it refers to. the references are in the main much better, but this is a messageboard and not a seminar, so peruse at yr leisure.

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Rekna

LOL! The point in releasing all videos is to get a clear unbiased picture for us to make our opinions on. Right now the case against acorn would not hold up in court. Hell a case against these individual employees would not even hold up in court.

I'm glad you are not a judge. Could you imagine what our judicial system would be like if we were allowed to have trials based on edited and incomplete videos?

I can't believe your argument against releasing these videos is that it might make them look innocent. It sounds to me like you already know they are guilty and thus any evidence to the contrary should not even be shown to anyone else. How very Bush WMD of you.

Cimarron29414

Building the foundations for fraud by committing another fraud makes no frackin difference to me. It shouldn't to you...and frankly, you have absolutely no way of knowing whether dead people voted or not - so don't imply that you do.

---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------

I know that the people on the video are guilty. Looking at 600 people NOT committing crime does not diminish the crimes committed on the videos that we saw. I have a video of a monkey humping a football, it proves these people innocent.

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dippin

You do know that those registrations were brought to the attention of the authorities by ACORN itself, right? And that, by law, that is what they are required to do. They cannot toss the registrations, only flag them for the authorities, which they did. If anything, they were defrauded by the people who did this, as they paid these people by registration.

And the point of releasing all the videos is to be, you know, objective. Are those 4 bad cases 4 out of 5 places they went? Or 4 out of 200? What was in the footage edited out?

Derwood

lol, wut?

So it's your opinion that the actions of these select, low-level employees should be enough to shut the entire agency down? Would you suggest shutting down, say, every McDonald's restaurant because one drive-thru cashier was selling dope out the window?

Cimarron29414

Let me try this again - you think I should not be upset about the fraud because "voter registration fraud is different than voter fraud." The first is a precursor to the second. Both are fraud and I feel the same about both of them. An untainted electoral process is the cornerstone of a republic.

I didn't say shut down the agency. If there are people stupid enough to donate money to ACORN, they can operate off of that - the way all other charities operate. I said cut federal funding until the allegations are proven false.

You seem to think because "only 5 low-level offices" were complicit in tax fraud, loan fraud and human trafficking of underage sex slaves that it is isolated. My take is that, if 5 offices won't bat an eye over these things, imagine all of the smaller fraud that occurs every single day on tax forms and loan applications filed by ACORN in general. The same fraud but without the over-the-top storyline. That is the point that none of you seem to want to accept.

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Derwood

You can be as upset as you want. I'm just saying one happened and the other didn't. Can I prove there was no voter fraud? No, but asking someone to prove a negative is bad form in a debate.


They have not been convicted of any crimes. And what happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? You are saying they are guilty until proven innocent.

And cutting federal funding will more or less shut down the agency.

I'm sure there is fraud. It's a not-for-profit agency that is paying barely trained people minimum wage. I'm sure similar things are happening at any number of agencies. Am I excusing the fraud? Of course not. But I'm also not damning the entire agency for the actions of the lowest level employees. Cutting ACORN's funding would be far more damaging and far-reaching than the petty fraud your alleging goes on

Rekna

I'm glad you know but we still need to see the unedited footage before we can say they are guilty. There isn't a judge in this country that would accept those videos as evidence. They would require the unedited versions of them in order to be admissible.

I'm surprised you don't see how only having edited footage is a bad thing. You can edit a video to say anything you want. I bet given enough footage I could make mother Theresa look like Hitler.

If you are going to use this footage to say the people in the video were bad then release all the unedited footage involving those people. If you are going to use this footage to say ACORN is bad then release all the footage including offices that didn't bite on this scam.

We really have 2 options here. We can either use the facts to create our opinions or we can use our opinions to create our facts. Which do you think is better?

Cimarron29414

No it won't - because people like you who see the wonderful work ACORN does in communites will take out their checkbook and fund them. You HAVE written them a check this week due to their funds being cut, right?

I see, so your defense of ACORN is:
1) The workers aren't paid enough.
2) The workers aren't trained enough to know that 13 year-old-sex slaves is an illegal business and should not be funded by federal housing grants.
3) Everybody else is doing it, so why can't ACORN.
4) Felony tax evation and mortgage fraud for the purposes of illegal sex trade operations is petty fraud.

Alrighty then, I can't argue with that. I'm done.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Derwood

I said none of those things

Cimarron29414

YOU LIE! Oh shit, now I'm a racist.

__________________
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dippin

strawman argument. Furthermore, have you even seen the part about the 13 year old sex slaves? The video shows the undercover reporters asking about it, but EDITED OUT the response.

I think that what those employees did was indefensible and that ACORN should be held responsible for them. But I would rather have the government follow due process before defunding an organization that does at least some good things.

If acorn is as bad as its claimed, due process shouldn't hurt, right?

Halx

This is off-topic, but I read a comment from the ACORN employee who stated that she knew the pimp and ho were fake actors and so she fed them as much bullshit as she could. Has this been taken into account in anyone's arguments?

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Cimarron29414

I read that account and believe that she said that to cover her ass. Who jokes around about that kind of shit? Any one of us would look them in the eye and say, "You are breaking the law and asking me to break it with you. Get out."

Whether they "meant it" or not, the information that they gave to the actors was absolutely correct and valid information about how to defraud the government. Hence, it is a crime whether she was just going along with it or not.

The only correct response to their inquiries was "Get out."

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Rekna

Except that half the stuff she said is provably false. She said she shot and killed her husband who was not shot and is still alive. Again just release the unedited footage and we can know the truth of what happened. I don't understand why you are against releasing the full footage and having context in what is going on.....

The fact is you and fox news are on a crusade, if the truth doesn't fit your story then throw it away. You formed your opinion of ACORN long before this occurred and because of that all you care about is crucifying them regardless of what the truth is.

Derwood

This is a clear cut case of certain people wanting to throw out the baby with the bath water

Cimarron29414

Farkin' A, dude. That was one part of one of the 5 videos. Go look at the first video, shot in Baltimore. Those women told him how to fill out the form for a mortgage grant and what tax code to use to replace "prostitute" with a legitimate trade. All five videos showed that same pattern. That is tax fraud and loan fraud. Plain and simple.

Each month, the government holds a gun to my head (figuratively) and forces me to write a check (taxes) to ACORN. I could be giving that money to my local food bank (I already do, but I would be able to give more.) Instead, I am forced to give it to people who are undeserving (ACORN). There are PLENTY of other charities out there that do what ACORN does with honesty and integrity and do not enjoy the money tree that ACORN picks from.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Rekna

Oh so now the entire ACORN organization is guilty but we don't need to see any of the footage from the other offices this guy went to. Based on O'Keefy's completely "unbiased" sample ACORN as a whole is clearly guilty. The people in the videos were doing exactly what ACORN told them to do....

If we are going to do this logic then all conservatives are cheating assholes (Vitter, Stanford, Craig, Esign, Foley). I can't believe you are a cheating asshole like these guys. I mean these guys were clearly told by the Republican party to cheat on their wives and they are telling you the same thing and I know you are cheating asshole because everyone in my unbiased sample above is a cheating asshole.

Cimarron29414

A gallon of water weighs approximately eight pounds.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

dippin

how can anyone defend at the same time the ideas that ACORN as a whole is to blame for this and that the videomakers shouldn't release their entire footage at the same time is beyond me.

Rekna

I think the only thing left to say is this:

Cimarron29414 trying to have a conversation with you is like trying to have a conversation with with a dinning room table.

Cimarron29414

Never said either of those things. This notion of the "footage" all started with "why don't they release the footage of the offices where these guys were told to take a hike?" That was the ONLY footage I ever said was just...stupid...to demand. (Post #53,55, and 59) As for the unedited footage vs. the edited footage (of the 5 videos which WERE released)- my only contention has been that the footage "as-is" shows felonious behavior. I don't care if the unedited footage is released and never said that it should be withheld. I implied that it's presence would not acquit the obvious criminal activity we can already see. How anyone ever got to my saying that the unedited footage should be hidden from the public is beyond me. #58 is where Rekna morphs the footage question from your contention in 53 of how we should see even the good videos into how we should see the unedited videos. I'm certain you will reread the thread and then apologize for the accusation.

---------- Post added at 04:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:44 PM ----------

Your post #74 was really too idiotic to respond to. You jump to so many conclusions without truly reading my post, as well as insult me by calling me a conservative. You can call me a dining room table if you like, but don't call me a conservative.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

dippin

In a case where the entire organization is being accused of something, how the fuck can you say that it is stupid to request the footage from the offices where nothing happened?

Only a partisan hack can claim that footage that shows no illegal behavior is irrelevant and that requesting it is stupid.

Do you seriously think that if those videos are 5 out of 300 the implications for acorn as an organization are the same if the videos are 5 out of 6?

And certainly saying that requesting such videos is stupid is akin to defending the non-release of them, right?

Besides, the importance of releasing the full unedited video is also obvious. One of the people in the videos claimed that she played along until she called the police. Do the videos show that? In fact, the editing of the videos has played such a role, that even you, who is so convinced that the videos show enough, was misled. You have stated in this thread the myth of the 13 year old sex worker, when in reality whatever acorn said about that was EDITED OUT of the video.


If acorn as an organization is guilty, they should certainly be punished. But I believe in due process. I'm not stupid or partisan enough to believe that edited video of a handful of individuals is enough to demonstrate that the organization itself is to blame, as opposed to just the individuals.

Cimarron29414

It is utter and complete speculation on both our parts that "good" videos even exist. If you think that two college students had enough money and time on their hands to produce 300 attempts at this all around the country - well then fine, I will concede that if the ratio is 5 to 300 - it is not systemic. Now, I suspect they failed a few times. I will even say they failed 10 times. That's still 33% of the time they were helped in commiting fraud. That number is systemic.

I'm not going to argue with you about the 13-year-old sex worker part, you are just wrong. The first video from Baltimore has the ACORN woman telling the prostitute to claim the girls as dependents, "but no more than 3 because no one will believe a 20-year-old has 13 kids."

BTW, I do expect you to admit that I never said the unedited footage should be withheld.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."