Vana

The pacification and assimilation of the Red Indian was one of the most ruthless acts of modern colonial administration. North American Natives still held-out hope they could escape national and cultural eradication well into the 20th century. Central to this policy was the Residential School System. Children were taken from families, and brought up in 'boarding-schools' to be good English Protestants or French Catholics. This was a brutal, but effective method: Native languages, religions, cultures, nations*, family ties, and so on were broken up.

As the colonial era drew to a close in the 1970s, on the one-hand, the main work of assimilation, or at least marginalization, was finished; and on the other-hand, more liberal values meant that the population, who had been complicit in the massive genocidal and cultural eradication campaign carried out against the Native nations, would no longer be supportive once they understood the full details of the policy.

The state stood on the brink of accusations of genocide. The eradication of a hundred or more Native nations was a thing no longer acceptable in a world now condemning the apartheid regime in South Africa. It was necessary to divert attention away from the role that the state in general, and wide sectors of the population in particular, played in this campaign. A sex scandal is an excellent way to divert attention and criticism; and something very scandalous was going to be needed to keep the quite war and re-education camps from making very big news. And what could be more scandalous than pedophile-priests?

Rape has always been used as a weapon of war. While the sexual abuse of Native children by priests is a very bad thing, it is actually an intentional diversion from the much more serious indictment: total eradication of the North American Native Nations, their culture, their religion, their organizational structures, unique identity, and so on: planned and carried out by the state, with the support and complicity of it's population.

Court ordered abuse compensation to Aboriginals is much cheaper in economic and resource terms than returning the stolen land and nations to the Native -- not to mention the delegitimizing affect that recognizing the ruthless assimilation policy would have on the state that carried it out, and on the majority of citizens who supported it or at least complied. 'Kill two birds with one stone': it also bankrupted the Church in North America, who had long been competition for the state.


* Politically, this word: "nation", is the most threatening. "United Nations Charter, Chapter 1, Article 1, Part 2: “...nations based on respect for the principle of ... self-determination of peoples...."

Rekna

So what should we discuss? This is just a statement....

Cynthetiq

I'm not sure you really understand or know what you are talking about. I submit that you need to frame this discussion a bit better into something that can be discussed.

The Indian nations do not necessarily follow any of the US laws on their lands.
The Churches are far from bankrupt since many are bankrolled by the Vatican.

As far as the Residential School System, if you're referring to the idea that the American Indians were also part of the same Lost Generation of Australia, I ask that you please back up what you are saying with some sort of facts or evidence.

telling someone here to google it, doesn't promote discussion. Onus is on the thread starter to post a coherent opening post and frame the discussion, this is important especially in the politics and philosophy forums.

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Vana

If you think so, that is good. I wasn't sure. I can't find this explained like so on the 'net. But I've been looking at North American Native history these days, and this Priest-scandal sort of popped into my head. I've been thinking that the religious and the Church have passed from establishment to outsider these days.

Not sure I really understand? I'm sure I don't -- !

I was hoping that the frame would develop 'on-the-fly'. The framelessness of the thing seems to be the first frame that's come up. The thing always looks better framed... you see, there was a little image that I wanted to put at the top of a Native class, a school house, and some priests in the back, I think that would help, once I get to 15 posts I'll go back up and edit in the image I have in mind.

Modern times has the habit of packaging things. When all the frames are gone, what's left? Modernity is unstable with this emptiness, science offers no certain evidence, only theory and hypothesis, conspiracy theory is a mirror of official media, fast pace, provocative, vague, suggestive....

I'm having hard time sorting much out re. the laws. It is a mountain of paper and documents and most of it written in the frame of the colonialist or neo-colonialist.

I was gonna include the sentence "The frame: soap and Christianity was not going to hold much longer", but deleted it, so that is a frame I wonder about, what is the nature of the post-colonial frame? If nationality has no meaning for a borderless world, what will become of the Natives, do they have a new shot at liberation, or is the situation even more hopelessly obfuscated and spun?

Probably the stories about New World churches going bankrupt is just media. Not sure?

Seems to me they are very similar?

Google shows thousands of articles for "pedophile priest australia". Pretty much the same gist as the Canada ones.

Ambiguity has a meaning too. It wouldn't be right for me to tell you what and how to think about this. Similar with the conspiracy theory genre. The evidence is elusive. Everywhere and no where. It is in secret reports, and it is in front of you. This article is essentially an accusation of war crimes and cover-up, naming names is as useless as trying to indite George Bush -- or Joe Public: a prawn sandwich is the result of a global system of international exploitation, the Australian, for example, oppresses the Native every time he turns on a light or wears a wool sweater....

The_Jazz

Churches going bankrupt? I'm sure that the occassional Protestant church goes belly-up, but what you're implying is that CATHOLIC diocese are going bankrupt, which is an entirely different thing and completely unrelated to the point of your post. The diocese that have filed for reorganization (Chapter 11, not Chapter 7) have done so because their insurance limits have been exhausted by sexual molestation claims (SML) with other outstanding SML claims still in the wings. You should also realize that the only diocese that have declared bankruptcy have been in the US, which pretty much negates discussion of Canadian and/or Australian practices since the ramifications you claim simply aren't there.

I agree with Cyn. There's not much to discuss here. And if anyone thinks I'm being too harsh on a newbie, I welcome any comments or concerns voiced via PM.

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Vana

Did I? Maybe unconsciously, maybe "implying"?

So? No money. Why else do bankruptcies happen?

Looks to be lots in Canada actually. Not in Australia though. Wonder why?

Good, then the article makes more or less good sense. Nothing to discuss, old news.

I posted this on several fora, including a Christian site and a pedophile site. They had lots to discuss!

I'll paraphrase a few:

- This is essentially a conspiracy-theory; there is no smoking gun for a large cultural movement involving millions of people over centuries.

- The majority of the victims were male, and not pre-pubescent, therefore this is an issue of homosexuality and the Church, not one of pedophilia.

- It is interesting how late many Natives and animal species have survived almost untouched into the 21st century: uncontacted tribes still exist, many North American Natives do not speak English, the assimilation has not been so complete at all.

- There was no need for a cover-up, Anglos are well aware, though in denial, of the violence and expoitation they put on the Earth's people.

- Analysis: readers understood the article as either a defense of or an attack on the Christians, or pedophiles (or Americans); but my views on both I have not shared (the America connection hardly crossed my mind, but was much mentioned). This reinforces, to me, the conspiratorial nature of the thing.

I think this sums up the case well: 'cutting off your nose despite your face'. I'm not sure what this is called in logic, the grocery stores do the same: bring a bag from home to save the Earth: meanwhile, every product in the shop is already in a bag or box, far worse than the one shopping bag... not to mention the whole chain of production and distribution....

Cynthetiq

no, the three of us have stated that the onus is on you to frame the discussion better.

You'll notice that if you want discussion, then you should have some facts or figures to back up your assertations. Again, saying "But I read it on other forums..." or "There's lots of google evidence if you just search" doesn't make for a mature discussion here. It makes for a statement and that's just about it. Our trade here is discussion, if you'd like make such kinds of statements and musings without the burden of formulating a discussion, ala wondering aloud to yourself and maybe someone in the room will answer, we have blog space for such things.

But here, in our discussion forums, we expect, if not demand discussion diving boards to leap off from. The expectation is that you make a supposition, give your opinion of what you're reading to start off the discussion.

really lots in Canada? SHOW me. Don't tell me, SHOW me that's how and why you believe what you say.

bankruptcies happen for lots of reasons, from protecting assets to reallocating debt. It isn't just about not having money.

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Vana

Okay. If you three say so...

Conspiracy-theory is conspiracy-theory because there is no proper facts or evidence. As we know 'facts' and 'figures' are the instruments of spin doctors.

Who said such?

In this case there is very little, if not none. Google-bombing is part of the reason, Google presses popular pages to the top, so the redundant views of the dominant discourse fill the first hundred pages of search results. Thus, the Google results will exactly contradict my thesis.

I find blogs very alienating and isolating. Thanks but no thanks.

I am in the business of taking down frames, not of putting them up. Some people need all their ideas pre-packaged and pre-formatted. Others are more creative and free-thinking.

Supposition means prejudice. Something I try to avoid.

Sorry, I try to be aloof from opinion.

I have not given my opinion about pedophiles or about priests for a very good reason. In fact I must confess that I am not impartial, I have some very strong views about pedophiles and about priests!

Once I have enough post to put links I shall, here are a few article's titles that seem to relate,

"Anglican Church in Canada on Verge of Bankruptcy"
"Anglican church in Canada says it faces bankruptcy from child abuse claims"
"Anglican Synod may face financial bankruptcy"
"Canada Mulls Church Aid In Sex Abuse Scandal."

As it turns out, I have just also found an article that has the issue framed rather similar to how I have framed it,

"The Anglican Church of Canada's continuing struggle with its colonial history"

This point is probably a digression; there is no shortage of info on the fiscal cost to the Church; some went bankrupt, some were bailed out by the state (similar to the bank crisis?).

Cynthetiq

you obviously are too stubborn to adjust your style to our preferred method of debate and discussion.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/get-til...29-2008-a.html

this discussion is closed until you can reframe it into something that will be a discussion and not a misguided unintelligible sermon.

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