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Old 05-18-2009, 12:50 AM   #81 (permalink)
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Honestly, I don't really see the big deal. The photos leaked anyway.

I understand, and am a proponent for freedom of information, but I also understand the implications behind such information as this, amongst other examples, that ultimately create a detrimental path for evolution of history.

Ignorance is bliss, sure, but yes, it's also just that... ignorance.

Admittedly this scenario leaves me somewhat conflicted on my own views.
Maybe I'm just jaded but the proof is in our history, this nation spent 8 years throwing the blame of war crimes and draconian policies at Bush hoping that something would incite the people to rise up, but I've lost my faith in politics "for the people" or a government "for the people, by the people" cuz it's all a big pile of bull. 8 years of protesting, petitions, exposes, documentaries, showing much worse guild than this action by Obama and nothing came of it, he served out his term, he goes back to Texas, unaccountable for the mess he left America in.

No mistake to be made here, no nitpicking in the grey area, I don't think you'll find anyone who can honestly say that Bush implemented policies that left the USA economically stronger than ever. One such as myself has felt the impact directly as I got laid off and am searching for work in an economy where the businesses are wondering if they can even afford to pay their employees a fair living wage.

So we get back to the subject of the disclosure of these photos, and I'm left going "you know what? I don't really give a f*ck"

Everything in the media is political hyperbole and the people are powerless to overturn presidential orders, powerless to demand accountability.

Though not to confuse you, my blase attitude isn't the result of feeling defeated by 8 years of Bush. It's more over the fact that I feel releasing the photos through an "official" channel such as the white house really does nothing for our country.

Scenario: Pictures are released
Result: Moral Outrage by the citizens of the US
Secondary Result: Everything stays the same.
Feared result by Obama: Moral Outrage by citizens NOT of the US, and retaliatory actions against the lives of Americans domestic or abroad.

So to me, it's moot. Released or not, nothing changed other than people have their sense of entitlement, more fuel for their vehicle of moral outrage, more reasons to hate the previous administration which this happened under. *shrug*

Last edited by Shauk; 05-18-2009 at 12:52 AM..
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:21 AM   #82 (permalink)
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I'm saying it's bizarre that the right is now saying, "Pelosi is the bad guy here--she KNEW what our people were doing, and didn't do anything about it!" That's just bizarre, and the blame-shifting is cynical and transparent.

I said I disagree with Obama on this. Given that, the rest of your comment MUST be aimed at someone other than me.
I would say sir that both parties are the bad guy here. One {republicans} may shoulder a bit more of the blame but the Democrats are being more and more implicated in this mess on an almost daily basis. I think it's really bizarre that when implications of the Democratic Party leadership come to light the administration that ran on a "change" and "transparent government" platform suddenly change their tune and look more and more like the Bush administration of old.
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:14 AM   #83 (permalink)
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I would say sir that both parties are the bad guy here. One {republicans} may shoulder a bit more of the blame but the Democrats are being more and more implicated in this mess on an almost daily basis. I think it's really bizarre that when implications of the Democratic Party leadership come to light the administration that ran on a "change" and "transparent government" platform suddenly change their tune and look more and more like the Bush administration of old.
It's hard to get the tone of a comment on the internets, and this comment could be heard as trying to argue with what I said. I don't know how to make it clearer: I agree pretty much completely with you here. What I'm saying is, there's a disingenuous attempt going on from certain elements of the right to put it all on Pelosi's shoulders, which I find insulting and absurd.

I think the person who ordered the torture is more culpable than the person who stood by and let it happen. But only slightly. This thing reveals failure all the way up and down the spectrum of political leadership AND the military chain of command. And I am disturbed by the lack of change from the administration on this and other military-related issues.
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:24 PM   #84 (permalink)
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I don't know how many is enough. enough to prosecute? enough to convict? seems a modicum of respect and composure for the VICTIMS themselves. I've already used that as a reason, but that's not enough, because of whatever the fuck reasons that aren't enough. Willravel doesn't think that the victims seem to count because they don't need to be around their family members, justice is the the only way to be and live right. whatever that seems to be.
And I've already given my reasons, which apparently aren't enough either.

So showing any of the abuses at all is discounting the victims entirely? Do you honestly believe anyone would give a crap about any of this if the original photos had ever come out? This would have story buried deep in the paper and would have gotten a brief nod in the media overall if the photos didn't show what really happened. Do you know that the photos don't show worse behavior? Do you think it's worth pretending that we've done enough so we can pat ourselves on the back now? How does that help the victims? Inaction is not action.

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I have never said that there is any reason to hide them. I've not asked for them to be hidden. I've stated that they don't need to be in front of the entire public in order to prosecute or investigate. Why don't the need to be in the public?
You say you don't want to keep them hidden, you just don't want the public to able to see them. Can you please explain the difference?

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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq View Post
That's obviously the next question, because as I've shown before, respect for the victims. Not the obscuring their faces, or such thing that willravel thinks is enough, because they still live with it day to day for the rest of their lives. The damage is done the trauma is done.
So, if someone is assaulted, or hit by a drunk driver, the best way for the victims to heal is for the evidence to be locked away?
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Last edited by spectre; 05-18-2009 at 09:47 PM..
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:53 AM   #85 (permalink)
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And I've already given my reasons, which apparently aren't enough either.

So showing any of the abuses at all is discounting the victims entirely? Do you honestly believe anyone would give a crap about any of this if the original photos had ever come out? This would have story buried deep in the paper and would have gotten a brief nod in the media overall if the photos didn't show what really happened. Do you know that the photos don't show worse behavior? Do you think it's worth pretending that we've done enough so we can pat ourselves on the back now? How does that help the victims? Inaction is not action.
No, I don't know if it shows worse behavior, those that have seen them indicate that it's not worse that what has already been released. If the point is prosecution, then prosecute. If there is not going to be be any prosecution, then what is the point of releasing them to the general public? But so far the idea here is to use the photos as a political football to dress down the previous administration and the people that worked within it.


Quote:
You say you don't want to keep them hidden, you just don't want the public to able to see them. Can you please explain the difference?
Yes, AVAILABLE to the prosecutors is not the same thing as printed in ever newspaper and shown on every 11pm news. We didn't get to see the photos for OJ Simpson's trial nor do we see them for all the murder and homicides.

Quote:
So, if someone is assaulted, or hit by a drunk driver, the best way for the victims to heal is for the evidence to be locked away?
I've not ever said make the evidence unavailable for prosecution. Both you and willravel need to learn to read what I've written and not what you want it to say.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:59 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq View Post
what is the point of releasing them to the general public?
So that America can deal with what it has become. Will releasing new photos have that happen? I don't know. I know that withholding them won't have it happen.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:47 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ratbastid View Post
So that America can deal with what it has become. Will releasing new photos have that happen? I don't know. I know that withholding them won't have it happen.
so you have more photos released, America is doing your so called introspection and "dealing with what it has become" and it's finished... a year from now more photos are discovered... need to release those too?
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:35 PM   #88 (permalink)
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so you have more photos released, America is doing your so called introspection and "dealing with what it has become" and it's finished... a year from now more photos are discovered... need to release those too?
Not necessarily. Maybe in a year we won't need the dose of reality that we do right now.

By the way, you should know as well as anybody there's no such thing as "dealing with what you have become and it's finished".
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:38 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Yes, it's a vigilant thing, but no, my point is in furthering the discussion that if I'm to understand your point of view you've got to reach a bit to understand mine.

The idea is that once the process is done and completed, you don't dwell on the shittiness of it to continue to stew within in. There is a point of moving forward and onward.
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:05 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq View Post
The idea is that once the process is done and completed, you don't dwell on the shittiness of it to continue to stew within in. There is a point of moving forward and onward.
Apply that same logic to any other crime and your position will change. If someone attacked you and beat you, you'd likely report this incident to the police and expect them to arrest the man, charge him, and see him tried for assault. Someone telling you that it's over and done with, and not to dwell on it would be wrong to do so.
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:15 PM   #91 (permalink)
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actually no.. it's not.

There's a point in time where you have to move on with your life as it's MORE detrimental to continue to dwell on it.

It is why the Italians and Jews have finite periods of mourning. Because at some point you're DONE.

But again, so that we can cut to the chase. You win. You're right.
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:32 PM   #92 (permalink)
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There's a point in time where you have to move on with your life as it's MORE detrimental to continue to dwell on it.
That may be true, but that point in time is not yours to determine. Perhaps you'll remember the name Javaid Iqbal. Javaid Iqbal is a Pakastani Muslim arrested after 9/11 on trumped up charges and beaten severely. In 2001. After he was released, he filed a lawsuit to try and bring the guilty parties to justice. He fought in court for 8 years until his case finally reached the Supreme Court, where he lost 4-5. Would you look this man in the face and tell him that he's wrong to seek justice?
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It is why the Italians and Jews have finite periods of mourning. Because at some point you're DONE.
They mourn as a part of the process of closure. Believe me when I say that if you've been victimized, it's easier to get closure if the perpetrator has been brought to justice.
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:33 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq View Post
The idea is that once the process is done and completed, you don't dwell on the shittiness of it to continue to stew within in. There is a point of moving forward and onward.
I'm saying:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Maybe in a year we won't need the dose of reality that we do right now.
Would you say America is at peace with itself about this thing? I wouldn't. I'd say it's still skulking in the basement waiting to eat us.
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:43 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Willravel View Post
That may be true, but that point in time is not yours to determine. Perhaps you'll remember the name Javaid Iqbal. Javaid Iqbal is a Pakastani Muslim arrested after 9/11 on trumped up charges and beaten severely. In 2001. After he was released, he filed a lawsuit to try and bring the guilty parties to justice. He fought in court for 8 years until his case finally reached the Supreme Court, where he lost 4-5. Would you look this man in the face and tell him that he's wrong to seek justice?

They mourn as a part of the process of closure. Believe me when I say that if you've been victimized, it's easier to get closure if the perpetrator has been brought to justice.
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But again, so that we can cut to the chase. You win. You're right.
But when you're continued to be victimized because the guy next to you who didn't have anything happen to him but the cry for injustice or whatver hair he has up his ass.... well there's no closure there either.

Quote:
iraq: Abu Ghraib Victims Speak: August 8, 2004

'Before the publishing of the photographs, I had been keeping my experience to myself,' he said. 'After the publishing of the photographs, my mother came to me and asked me, 'Have they done to you what they have done to them?' I had to say, 'No.' Then, a relative of mine, who was detained with us and who knew of my story there, told my family what he knew, and that they did so-and-so to me.' Now, he said, he doesn't see anyone — not his mother or brothers or sisters-in-law. He's too ashamed."
You know.. he didn't need to still be in touch with is mother, brothers or in laws... because he got justice and now can heal, never mind he doesn't want to be with his family!
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Old 05-19-2009, 06:29 PM   #95 (permalink)
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I get that Saddam Saleh al-Radi is uncomfortable with the photos being released, I sympathize, but as I said and you ignored, we can blur faces. We can blur faces. We can release all of these photographs to the public while simultaneously protecting the identity of those victimized.

Do you think this person would have trouble with people recognizing him?
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Old 05-19-2009, 06:42 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Oh right will you're right again.

He said he was recognized in the photo... I didn't see that published anywhere in the article he's quoted in, he said that once the photos were released his family ASKED him about it...

but I'm sure you knew about it... cuz you're absolutely right again!!! it's amazing you're like Kreskin!
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Old 05-19-2009, 07:03 PM   #97 (permalink)
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They were aware their family member was tortured, but decided to leave it alone. They didn't really understand what happened to him. As soon as the photographs came out, though, they were able to see with their own eyes just how bad it was and they were overcome to the point where they broke their silence. Expand that to the general population. If this can change silence to proactive engagement in the family of one of the victims, why is it so unreasonable that it can change the silence of your average American to proactively seeking justice?

Anyway, Saddam Saleh al-Radi has already been tortured. He didn't start being a victim when photos were released, he started being a victim when he was kidnapped and tortured. What about the next Saddam Saleh al-Radi? If we don't bring these people to justice, it will set precedent that we can torture in the future and the next Bush administration will eventually lead us down this same road again. There will be more Saddam Saleh al-Radis unless we prosecute.
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Old 05-19-2009, 07:27 PM   #98 (permalink)
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as I've said before there will be more Saddamn Saleh even if you've prosecuted. It's not a slam dunk to think that because you prosecuted that you're stopping torture from happening in the future. People were prosecuted for war crimes in Vietnam but hey some of those same things happened in the Gulf War!!! and Iraq War!!!! OMFG! What happened????

but you're willravel, you're right... you know more about how they were "overcome" that's awesome... you should be a preacher or something since you know and can interpret the words that were on the only article that has his name. You should be able to interpret how Bible means too.

you're rigth willravel. absolutely right.
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Old 05-19-2009, 07:29 PM   #99 (permalink)
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This conversation has gone downhill.
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Old 05-19-2009, 07:33 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ratbastid View Post
This conversation has gone downhill.
Well, I don't know about you but it seems that I'm in a discussion with someone who can see words that aren't in the article posted nor any other article or source.
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Old 05-19-2009, 07:46 PM   #101 (permalink)
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No, I don't know if it shows worse behavior, those that have seen them indicate that it's not worse that what has already been released. If the point is prosecution, then prosecute. If there is not going to be be any prosecution, then what is the point of releasing them to the general public? But so far the idea here is to use the photos as a political football to dress down the previous administration and the people that worked within it.
You were on the train and then derailed. The point is to make sure that there is prosecution if it's warranted. This is all a political game right now, it's not about right and wrong. That's what releasing the photos will do, create the public outcry necessary to bring this back to what this is about, that what was done was wrong, plain and simple.


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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq View Post
Yes, AVAILABLE to the prosecutors is not the same thing as printed in ever newspaper and shown on every 11pm news. We didn't get to see the photos for OJ Simpson's trial nor do we see them for all the murder and homicides.
You don't read many tabloids, otherwise you would've seen Nicole's head barely still attached. The photos were never officially released and there already was an outcry for justice, but they certainly fueled more pressure being put on the part of the prosecution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq View Post
I've not ever said make the evidence unavailable for prosecution.
Technically, you weren't very clear either way, just saying to not show them, so I'll give you that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq View Post
Both you and willravel need to learn to read what I've written and not what you want it to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq View Post
Oh right will you're right again.

He said he was recognized in the photo... I didn't see that published anywhere in the article he's quoted in, he said that once the photos were released his family ASKED him about it...

but I'm sure you knew about it... cuz you're absolutely right again!!! it's amazing you're like Kreskin!
I'd want the above quote to say something that isn't a troll.

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Well, I don't know about you but it seems that I'm in a discussion with someone who can see words that aren't in the article posted nor any other article or source.
So that means we're allowed to openly mock people who we feel aren't understanding what we're saying? When was this rule change put in place? Is this a staff only thing or site wide? If you disagree with anything I've said above, am I free to mock you as well?
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Last edited by spectre; 05-19-2009 at 07:48 PM..
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Old 05-19-2009, 07:50 PM   #102 (permalink)
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I'm saying it with the utmost respect and sincerity because it's what he wants me to say. that he's right.

if you think it's a troll... feel free to press the REPORT post button.
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Old 05-19-2009, 08:16 PM   #103 (permalink)
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if you think it's a troll... feel free to press the REPORT post button.
You're right, that is the correct way to handle it. Thank you.
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Old 05-20-2009, 04:49 PM   #104 (permalink)
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EVERYONE is now going to make more liberal use of their back button, and everyone reading this thread is hereby deputized to use the Report Post Button (the red and white triangle with an exclamation point in the center beneath every poster's name) if they see anyone who is out of line.
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Old 05-20-2009, 05:06 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Anyway, it seems Obama is facing a split in his support on this issue. A lot of his core supporters are for releasing the photos, and a lot are against it. I find it interesting that this same split is mirrored in his own behavior, referencing the seeming flip flop.

I hate to characterize the issue in terms of locations on a theoretical political scale as it should be circling around issues like justice and closure, but judging by who is saying what on the issue, the more liberal you are the more likely you are to want the photos released. I doubt very much that it's a coincidence. Liberals—honest to goodness leftists—have been screaming over the past 8 years for our day in the sun, and now that we have more Democrats than we know what to do with, we (the liberal liberals) were kinda hoping it was time to bring justice to the guilty. Now, though, we're seeing that Obama can't for some reason be quite as optimistic and progressive as he was on the campaign trail. I understand that to a point, some of the promises he made will take a lot of time and a lot of work, but if these photographs aren't released soon, we may lose our window to get the public behind the idea of prosecutions.

Back when Clinton was in power, it always seemed like he was in turmoil between his true liberal feelings on the one side and his moderate feelings stemming from classic Democrat low self-assuredness on the other. I was only 10 when he was elected, so I wasn't really paying much attention, but by my understanding Clinton started out relatively liberal and then slowly slid right, especially after the sex scandal and Republican domination of congress. I don't want to see that happen again, because I'm worried we'll just end up going in circles between a far-right conservative the causes a mess and a gradually less liberal Democrat that has to clean it up. We'll never get anything done.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:23 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Apparently the photos contain graphic depictions of torture and rape...

Report: Iraq abuse photos depict torture, rape - White House- msnbc.com
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:59 PM   #107 (permalink)
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So I guess we haven't seen the worst of them yet.
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:25 PM   #108 (permalink)
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If the new pictures not being released are so much worse than what we've seen before, I can't even imagine how bad it will be. Because rape and so on were already depicted in the earlier pictures released:

Warning: 2 graphic pictures

at-Largely: Photos Obama won't release include images of rape...(warning, graphic)

at-Largely: Something I missed

Apparently, some of the photos not released include the rape of an Iraqi teenager.
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