05-14-2009, 08:58 AM | #41 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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no, I don't remember the outrage over his sexual impropriety, I remember him LYING under oath. I didn't give a shit that some girl sucked his cock in the oval office, I was upset that he commited perjury.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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05-14-2009, 09:04 AM | #42 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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1,000 or 2,000 photos would suggest a more wide spread pattern of practices that would be hard to "explain" other than to believe those actions were sanctioned.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 05-14-2009 at 09:08 AM.. |
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05-14-2009, 09:49 AM | #44 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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05-14-2009, 09:57 AM | #45 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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this is funny stuff.
for all the years of blah blah blah personal responsibility this personal responsibility that, these days conservatives just can't stop themselves from trying at all costs to evade it. but this torture business--the legal arguments for it, the formulation of policy, it's questionable implementation, that it was kept partially secret from congress---all of it is squarely on the right's shoulders. it'd be nice for these heroes of personal responsibility blah blah blah to suck it up for once and deal with the self-evident. but they just can't do it. goes to show that "personal responsibility" mainly applies to other people, not to conservatives themselves.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
05-14-2009, 11:55 AM | #46 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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No, it was mine that you discounted.
It's not surprising that so few Americans are interested in confronting the moral implications of this thing. This isn't a sociological or logistical or practical phenomenon. This is a moral question. One can dodge that, but only at the price of one's one morality. |
05-14-2009, 05:14 PM | #47 (permalink) | |
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I agree, that is exactly why it was a problem. Even though it was something that seemed small and harmless, it was a person charged with faithfully executing federal law breaking that law.
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05-14-2009, 06:02 PM | #48 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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Murder and rape victims get privacy and compassion from the media and the world at large, why not someone who's also been tortured? When do they get to heal? Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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05-14-2009, 06:21 PM | #50 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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"Fuck these chains No goddamn slave I will be different" ~ Machine Head |
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05-14-2009, 06:33 PM | #51 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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The quote specifically says someone who is tortured is no longer associating with family members out of embarassment. Great healing there. Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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05-14-2009, 06:36 PM | #52 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Chicago
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I say release the photos so former President Bush can use them as exhibits in his presidential library. This is, after all, going to be one of his greatest legacies.
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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses |
05-14-2009, 06:41 PM | #53 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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fact is that while there is a fairly compact chain of bush administration appointees who were directly responsible for this policy and its rationale, the entire political class caved in before the arguments that the bush administration put forward in favor of these actions. i think it is an ethical lapse of very considerable proportions and a political problem of even greater proportions. i see no way to address it apart from transparency to the greatest possible extent: release of the photos is an aspect of that transparency. the problem really with the release is not what the right says, but that the magnitude of the capitulation of the political class of the time to this bush administration policy becomes more and more obvious. but i think this a serious enough problem that the political class SHOULD feel the heat from it and should be forced to deal with it. sweeping it under the rug is not dealing with it. an ancillary fact is that the right will pay for this more than the democrats--but that too is as it should be.
it is because bureaucracies are such basically stupid organizations that it is all the more incumbent on the people who fashion--and approve---policy to not allow themselves to loose track of ethics not loose sight of fundamental human rights and the rule of law.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
05-14-2009, 06:46 PM | #54 (permalink) |
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i agree with roachboy that this is very funny stuff.
that this poor, sad 9 year psychotic effort to prosecute President Bush or someone in his administration for something...anything, which started with hanging chads, and ended with 183, counting the drips, instances of torture (but not the fingernail/bamboo kind) on one poor soul in 30 days ..... that in the face of your own elected President (NOT MY PRESIDENT!!) blocking an effort to release interogation photos without context or even what was gained from them....that you still attempt to convice people that this is an issue of most americans being afraid of the "moral implications" of the matter is astounding. that you now believe this is an issue of the right shying away from personal responsibility in the face of the current administration practically retiring the phrase "we inherited it" from the english language within 100 days of office that Nancy Pelosi has convinced you things were partially kept from her.... The denial of your own motivations are in themselves mind bottling, but the pedestal you put yourselves on to take this position in an attempt to fool the populace is even more so. Last edited by matthew330; 05-14-2009 at 06:50 PM.. |
05-14-2009, 06:50 PM | #55 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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matthew--i've read your post 3 times and really have no idea what you're talking about.
you apparently feel the need to trivialize this behind a smoke-screen of conservative talking points. i suppose that's your prerogative, but the idea that you agree in any way with anything i've said here (or elsewhere) about the question of torture and the bush administration is absurd.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
05-14-2009, 06:53 PM | #56 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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I think he only agrees with you that it's funny.
this seems more interesting to me for some reason, since we're now all in for the long haul... if you go by the law, you go by the law.... Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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05-14-2009, 06:54 PM | #57 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Chicago
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Now, as an aside: please please please - it's "mind boggling", not "mind bottling". Language matters. It really really does.
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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses |
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05-14-2009, 07:03 PM | #58 (permalink) |
Banned
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"but the idea that you agree in any way with anything i've said here (or elsewhere) about the question of torture and the bush administration is absurd"
if you read it 3 times in an honest effort to get, I would have at least thought you could've picked up on the fact that I only agree with you that this is funny, just for different reasons. And Jumpin Jesus - I was laughing while I typed mind bottling, hoping it would draw some of the other more excitable members out. You blew it for me, you could have at least given it a chance to work its magic. |
05-14-2009, 08:00 PM | #61 (permalink) | ||
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"Fuck these chains No goddamn slave I will be different" ~ Machine Head |
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05-14-2009, 10:14 PM | #62 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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You lack the credibility to make such a determination.
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And don't worry, I'd never dream of suggesting that anything you've posted is dumb or stupid. That would be disrespectful and uncalled for. |
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05-15-2009, 02:17 AM | #63 (permalink) |
Psycho
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What's really fucking sad is the "left" is so hell bent on destroying the "right" they didn't fucking care how much damage they done until it was found out some of their very own was implicated and suddenly they are doing a complete 180 to minimize that damage. It's the same old story same old song and dance it's just being sung and danced to by a different party.
Ladies and Gentlemen there is no hope for the Republic, we are so fucked no matter which party is in charge. Hell almost all of Obama's promises of change suddenly went by the wayside after he got in office. Either life at the top is a bit different than he surmised, the reality of the massive responsibility of being president began sinking in or he just fucking flat out lied to get elected. No matter what the excuse is we the people are so fucked.
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05-15-2009, 03:33 AM | #64 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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so wait---the bush administration instituted a policy of torture and now it's out and as a result of THAT you claim that "the republic is fucked"?
so it follows then that had the policy of torture NOT been made public that the republic would not be fucked? if thats the case, then what makes a healthy republic is the ability to torture in secret. what kind of logic is that? so attempts to deal with the consequences of torture, once public, has to come from "enemies of america"? this because, of course, the right is america. wow.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
05-15-2009, 04:40 AM | #65 (permalink) | |||
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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Why? Because human beings are sick and twisted stupid motherfuckers who seem to think that this case here, this time, special case, this version, this occasion is different from the rest and they think they can get away with it. You'd think that there's going to be no corrupt politicians, there's laws that prohibit it, there's checks and balances, there's others getting caught and prosecuted. But still, the fucked up human being thinks, "Hey, this time, I have the in, I do it this way, I call it this...." and suddenly it's rationalized and they go ahead with the action. And the American public is shocked and outraged... shocked and outraged that some American politician shouldn't have been corrupt in the first place. Hello... politicians have been corrupt since the dawn of organized politics. There are already people on camera, there's enough evidence showing that this happened, all that is left is the paper trail to the who and how high it went up to. Are you expecting to see Rice or Rumsfeld in the photos? Are you expecting to see some 5 star Generals? So again, what purpose does releasing more photos serve? There is already someone on camera in the documentary Torturing Democracy: Quote:
Again, how does more photos change what information is already out there and available? Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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05-15-2009, 07:42 AM | #66 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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A lot of people I know voted for Obama to vote against McCain. What do you think McCain would be doing right now? |
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05-15-2009, 10:27 AM | #67 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Will, I take it "left" was meant as its colliquial meaning in the U.S., which is "liberal" or "Democrat." Most of us know that there are very few actual "leftists" with any power in the U.S. The furthest left the Democrats go are left-centre. This leaning happens as some members are more focused on social liberalism than others.
That said, it's a common trait of social liberals (and even classical liberals, from which the Republicans arose a long, long time ago) to be concerned about issues of human rights, civil liberties, etc., and have worked long and hard to create new rights regarding capital punishment, abortion, immigration, and same-sex marriage. They support a positive sense of liberty, which is why liberals (not just the left kind) are rather opposed to the idea of torture and it being trivialized by cases such as these.
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05-15-2009, 10:53 PM | #71 (permalink) | ||||
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You're right, politicians are corrupt, so by your logic, we just let it go and be complicit in enabling their corruption because they're corrupt anyway? Why put a thief in jail if they'll just go out and steal again, right? Just save the taxpayers a lot of money and send him on his way? When someone has power and chooses to abuse it, they should be called on it. The people should know the person they've elected is corrupt so something can be done. As a resident of Illinois, I'm glad Blagojevich was called out on being corrupt. I wouldn't want that douchebag having power just because corruption has been around for a long time so that makes it okay. Quote:
So you keep asking this question to me and continually brush my answers without answering yourself, I have to ask, what purpose does hiding the photos serve? If releasing them must have a purpose, then hiding them has to as well, right?
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"Fuck these chains No goddamn slave I will be different" ~ Machine Head |
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05-16-2009, 09:26 PM | #72 (permalink) | |
let me be clear
Location: Waddy Peytona
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... ONLY if they show them along with the pictures of every innocent terrified soul that jumped to their horrifying deaths from the rooftops and windows of the World Trade Towers. Showing frame-by-frame their entire descent through space, some holding hands with other jumpers for comfort, the mid-air prayers and complete hysteria as they plummit to a sidewalk-splat, many landing on and killing 1st-responders and innocent victims below. Show them ONLY if they show them alongside the images of people like Daniel Pearle having their heads sawed off. Just trying to get it all out there. Context, perspective, intellectual honesty. Allah Akbar!
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05-16-2009, 09:49 PM | #73 (permalink) | |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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So in the name of "intellectual honesty" you think that the pictures of torture in an Iraqi prison should be released alongside and linked to the pictures of the dead in the 9/11 attacks and in Pakistan? |
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05-16-2009, 09:59 PM | #74 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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otto: i doubt you'd know intellectual honesty if it it spit in your face. what your "context" thing is about is repeating the framing of torture used by the bush administration, and amounts to what the bush administration argument really was: that it is ok for the united states to itself become the kind of organization that it supposedly opposes on "moral"grounds--you know, those tiresome fictions that appeal to conservatives, that nationalist circle jerk that makes conservatives come alive. so not only does your position throw ethics out the window, but it also makes the rule of law optional---even as the nationalist circle-jerk enables folk like you imagine themselves to be above all that.
i think that's funny. you seem attuned to jokes, otto: don't you think that's funny?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 05-16-2009 at 10:01 PM.. |
05-17-2009, 03:27 AM | #75 (permalink) | |
Psycho
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"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson |
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05-17-2009, 05:02 AM | #76 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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05-17-2009, 06:00 AM | #77 (permalink) | |
Psycho
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You don't see any conflicts with administration first stating they are releasing the photos then doing a 180 when it becomes public the democratic leadership knew in '03 or '04 {whenever the heck it was, my memory fails me momentarily} ? You see this as "change" from politics as usual? Granted the fact the administration has publicly shied away from any future torture but in reality that is but a small change from politics as usual. Huge for the people on the receiving end of the torture but in the big picture it's but a small sliver of the whole pie.
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"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson Last edited by scout; 05-17-2009 at 06:05 AM.. |
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05-17-2009, 06:35 AM | #78 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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I'm saying it's bizarre that the right is now saying, "Pelosi is the bad guy here--she KNEW what our people were doing, and didn't do anything about it!" That's just bizarre, and the blame-shifting is cynical and transparent.
I said I disagree with Obama on this. Given that, the rest of your comment MUST be aimed at someone other than me. Last edited by ratbastid; 05-17-2009 at 09:34 AM.. |
05-17-2009, 08:10 PM | #80 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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I have never said that there is any reason to hide them. I've not asked for them to be hidden. I've stated that they don't need to be in front of the entire public in order to prosecute or investigate. Why don't the need to be in the public? That's obviously the next question, because as I've shown before, respect for the victims. Not the obscuring their faces, or such thing that willravel thinks is enough, because they still live with it day to day for the rest of their lives. The damage is done the trauma is done.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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abu, ghraib, obama, orders, part, photos, stop |
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