Walt

I came across this video on Youtube today when I was trying to avoid doing any kind of meaningful work. Supposedly it is a Florida cop trying to apprehend a 15 year old black girl for violating curfew. At one point the cop throws a short punch to the girls head and pepper sprays her (after she bites him, fails to follow a lawful order and resists arrest).

A quick count shows that the cop told the girl to stop resisting 4 times and told her to put her hands behind her back 16 times. So what do you think? Is this police brutality?

YouTube - 15 Year Old Girl Punched And Pepper Sprayed By Cop

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Willravel

If he wanted to get her right arm back, he could have done it. Instead he brought her left arm up to her shoulder, which I can attest to being quite painful. She continues to resist, though in a passive manner which is no danger to the police officer. He becomes frustrated and forces her head into the police car's hood. Probably not necessary, but not quite brutality yet.

Then he hits her in the face. It's done not to make her docile, not to stop her from being dangerous, but out of his own anger. Then he pepper sprays her, again clearly out of anger.

Was his force excessive? Not until he hit her.

Jozrael

I still don't think it was excessive. He was just trying to get her in cuffs for how many minutes? Jeez.

Fotzlid

She' s lucky all she got was a quick shot to the face and some pepper spray.
That cop was well aware of the video camera. If it wasn't there, she would have gotten a lot worse. All of that could have been easily avoided if she just did what the cop said.
You treat people like that with kid gloves and you will be the one that gets hurt. That will happen exactly once. After that it will be "screw it. I'm not getting hurt because of you" and do what you have to to get the person under control.

Her lack of reaction to the spray also leads me to believe she was under the influence of something.

Radio Monk33

I dunno, I think the first 5 "put your arms behind your back" and "stop resisting" were pretty clear and simple instructions to understand.

It would of probably been excessive if it weren't for the biting. Funny how that part wasn't emphasized with a slow motion replay in the video.

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tisonlyi

Just for comparison.

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dksuddeth

cops are above the law, in fact, they are the law.

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Baraka_Guru

Which is it you're saying? Are they above it, or are they it?

I'd disagree with either. Cops are one arm of the government's upholding of law. Included also are government itself (which makes and enacts law), the courts (which interpret law and administer consequences of breaking it), prisons (which is a system to manage those who are deemed to have broken the more serious laws), and military (which is a force used to enforce laws in foreign territories, or against foreign forces in domestic territory).

The police are like military in that they enforce laws, but domestically, among the general population. The aims of the police are to enforce laws and to prevent crime. They are not the law in its entirety, not by a long shot.

If applicable laws deem what this officer did to be unlawful, then this should be processed as such. This is partly why there are cameras in these settings now. We're watching the watchmen.

I think perhaps you were making a political statement, but if this is the case, your brevity has lead to an easy disagreement through misunderstanding.

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dksuddeth

BG, how long have you watched me post on here about police and government? Apparently not long enough to know that my comment was entirely sarcastic and intended to relay my opinion on how cops think and act like they are THE law.

I'll accept that my brevity was too brief.

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Baraka_Guru

DK, I think you know that I know better. Perhaps this was my way of trying to draw you out. I think you can add much more to this.

So you think this cop was merely doing whatever he wanted because he knew he was undeniably in the right? Do you find this acceptable? Is what he did okay, or should he have done something else?

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Manic_Skafe

I've seen guys who've drunken themselves into a violent stupor treated with more consideration than that. She was clearly resisting arrest but she's also a hysterical child - the macing, face slamming and arm twisting were all excessive.

It'd been easy enough to put someone half your size in a pair handcuffs. Just imagine if a parent attempted to subdue their own child in a similar fashion. I can't imagine many of us not calling the cops if we were to see that - being a cop doesn't make this alright.

He used excessive force. Police brutality has far too many implications for me to fell comfortable using it in this case.

I should also add that while I'd live happily enough without seeing that video again, I'd like to see it from an unbiased source as the editing has (in my case at least) framed the video under the context of police brutality.

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Willravel

I've never though of it in those terms. Maybe imagining that there isn't a ceiling on bad child behavior (very few children shoot at their parents), one could apply this comparison.

dksuddeth

all too often, nowadays, police resort to their 'non-lethal' weapons for use as pain compliance. Maybe that's what people want nowadays, who knows. I didn't watch any of the videos because I got enough crap keeping my blood pressure up these days.

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Rekna

I don't know i'm a but in the air on this. I think the force the police officer used may have been unnecessary but i'd would hesitate to say it was excessive and definitely wouldn't call it brutality. The officer tried very hard to get her to comply without used force and then only used force after she failed to comply with a lawful order.

Walt

Im going to respectfully disagree, though my evidence is anectodal.

When I was involved with law enforcement, I was into wrestling, power lifting and weighed in at about 250 lbs. Ive put handcuffs on more than a few people. If somone doesnt want to comply, its incredibly difficult to get them in bracelets by yourself without hurting them. Even with a cops world class, super secret, advanced ninja training.

Joint manipulations and pain compliance techniques work most of the time but can be dangerous when applied to drunks, tweakers and people who are just batshit crazy. Ive seen people try to buck a cop and ended up breaking their own arms, shoulders, wrists, etc. IMHO the cop in this video knew of the dangers of joint manipulations and was doing his best to try to avoid hurting the young girl.

As for the punch...It seemed to be reactionary to me. She bit him (a great way to inflict physical damage AND transmit disease) and he popped her. By biting him, she had taken the altercation to the next level.

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ChrisJericho

I'm not a big fan of police, but the girl got what she deserved. She ignored multiple warnings and tried to bite the guy. Who knows what kinds of diseases she is carrying? She's lucky she didn't get tased.

Save the videos for cases of REAL police brutality, of which there are many. This isn't one of them.

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Fotzlid

+1

I've had to restrain many an individual over the past 7 years of ER work including drunks, psychotics, drug OD's and even little old ladies. It isn't easy if they don't want to be tacked down. We can't punch people in the face or mace them but we do use pressure points and joint manipulation when appropriate.

percy

I think the cop was too easy on her. Must say he showed more than enough patience.

The comment regarding a parent treating a child like this is a moot point. The police have a role, rules and regulations to abide by in dealing with people who do not co-operate. It is called resisting arrest and I hope this woman was charged with it.

Maybe if her parents brought her up properly or at the very least, she turned her ears on instead of the "talk to the hand" attitude, we wouldn't be discussing it now.

At least no one has called the cop a racist,...yet!!

Hyacinthe

Personally I don't think the first video can be used as any kindof evidence of police brutality it's entirely too biased.

I've seen the police get pretty harsh with a fair few people in my night life - a few cases that I would definitely think of as police brutality (once against me a few years ago to the point that all previous charges were dropped for myself and all my friends) this isn't one of them.

The girls actions, speech patterns and lack of co-ordination would imply that she's most definitely on something , maybe just alcohol maybe more. Also if you watch what happens closely he WAS trying to put her hands down lower behind her back she actually twists back into his grasp forcing her own arm up, her complaints of pain afterwards viewed that way are ridiculous. I've been held like that the LAST thing you want to do is move back into the person holding you. I also don't agree that he would have been more physical were the camera not there - he seemed downright uncomfortable and stated numerous times "I don't want to hurt you".

By biting him she put him at risk for a heck load of diseases - if one of my patients bit me (and they have an excuse to act crazy) then I would probably act somewhat more aggressively then normal myself.

I also completely fail to see the link between the two videos - you have NO background information on either situation - do we even know why the cops were called in the case of the 15 yr old? And a traffic violation (even one as bad as in the case of the woman) could be nothing compared to what the girl was doing - maybe she was trying to break into someones house or something similar, I wonder why the crime she's accused of isn't mentioned?

Each accusation of police brutality has to be examined on a case by case basis by an objective party - unfortunately it seems like the media are making it impossible for that to happen.

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smooth

sometimes the responses on here fucking amaze me

simply. fucking. amaze. me.

so a husband can't slam, punch, and mace his wife, a mother can't slam, punch, and mace her son, an EMT can't slam, punch or a mace a drunk, but an adult male can face punch a 15 year old girl because he's a cop?

because he's a cop?!

that's exactly what dksuddeth was pointing out.

obviously an argument can be made to restrain people using professional methods.
No one's denying a cop the right and responsibility to restrain an individual breaking the law, even if it results in pain.
But where the hell do face punching someone, anyone fit into that? I'm less upset about slamming her head down into the hood, if only for the fact he might have actually thought that he was losing grip on her and sliding out.

but there's not fucking way that anyone can sit here and appear to be reasonable to me and not also conclude that the cop obviously lost his temper and training and just plain punched her in the face out of frustration. he stopped what he was doing, he punched her in the face, and then went back to doing what he was doing...it's a pretty clear shift in demeanor and tactics to my eyes.

My wife's done some pretty wicked shit when she doesn't want to get rough-housed. None of her training involved punching me, however.
Likewise, I've been no stranger to being an asshole to the cops and also no stranger to being fucked up by them.
There have been about 2 instances of straight up brutality, like the time I was curbed stomped by a few until my someone came outside and started shouted they were going to break my back if they didn't stop. and from pure chance a different neighbor took it upon herself to pass a pack of photos to my judge and the charges of "resisting arrest" were promptly dropped.

but I say all that to point out that all the other times I've been at the receiving end of a police-sponsored ass-whooping it's been in those circumstances that my behavior was the cause of my pain. properly trained, there are all kinds of points of pressure to bring about compliance and if I choose to break my finger or dislocate my shoulder based on my own irrational urge to smash myself against the holds on me then so be it. but that's far and away from punching me while I'm half cuffed.

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Rekna

The punch was clearly a reaction to being bit. Reactions like that are hard to control but notice right afterword he got himself under control and resumed the same procedures. This girl got what she deserved.

LoganSnake

She had it coming. Maybe next time she wouldn't be stupid and wouldn't resist arrest.

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Manic_Skafe

It isn't a moot point because in either case, those charged with the responsibility of policing the streets or bringing up their children are allowed to do so as long as their methods are within reason.

Whether or not she resisted arrest or was uncooperative is indisputable as she is obviously guilty of both. The question is exactly where we should draw the line between subduing the resistant and unnecessary brutality.

If the cop was "too easy on her" then tell us exactly how far he should have gone? If macing, punching and hood slamming the face of a child doesn't press your buttons at all then where would you draw the line?

I wonder if by randomly selecting a random two minute and forty five second interval from the last few days of your life, we could honestly and fairly make a definitive statement about you, your parents and the manner in which you were raised.

-

Some of you may be comfortable enough living in a world in which the police are allowed to define their responsibility of serving the public however they may choose but I'd prefer to err on the side of protecting the public from the police.

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LoganSnake

Your point would be valid if she was complying with the officer and he roughed her up anyway. If you notice, he looks at the camera quite a few times as if to say "See this? I'm doing what I can, but she's not cooperating".

What would you have done in his place anyway? Danced around her while she screamed that she didn't do anything?

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Manic_Skafe

How is that question pertinent in any way? If this thread was actually about whether or not officers should be allowed to use force to subdue a perp then I wouldn't have bothered to reply.

From your perspective, is that what this thread is about?

Would I have maced, punched and hood slammed a hysterical 15 year old child in the face? Probably not.

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LoganSnake

That's exactly what this thread is about. It's about doing something to get the job done. He could have asked her to put her hands behind her back until he was blue in the face and she still wouldn't have complied. Was he excessive? I don't think so. Punching her was a reaction to the biting and I doubt it was intentional. Reflexes aren't that easy to control.

However, I doubt that this incident gave her a newfound respect for authority.

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