aceventura3

I know you are being sarcastic and I actually do understand some of the points you make. If you think Democrats have demonstrated honesty in the way they present their point of view on many of these complex issues, we disagree.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

ace....If you think Republicans, particularly McCain and Palin have demonstrated honesty in the way they presented their point of view on many of these complex issues, we disagree.

So whats the point of this?

Its up to the voters now. I just hope you withhold further criticism of Obama supporters being w/o life goals or ambitions.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

I have been posting my views here for some time now. There is a history, a track record, all of that speaks for itself. Occasionally I use humor, sarcasm, I can be insulting, I may make mistakes, I can be an ass, etc., but occasionally I raise a few legitimate points and ask a few questions that cuts through b.s., those responses also speak for themselves.
-----Added 4/11/2008 at 12 : 15 : 10-----
I will tell you when I think Republicans are full of it, I have done that many times.

The point was in my counter-points to the points you made. Your views, in my opinion, lacked depth. The appeared to be the lines repeated over and over by those representing the party. The media has never asked the questions, I would ask. So, I post them here. You think taxing corporations that move jobs overseas is a good thing, maybe it is maybe it isn't. I just think it is worth a detailed look.

This is a dishonest comment.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

ratbastid

The current administration's view is that if you're not fur us you're a-ggin us. Most reasonable people find that overly bellicose. Why, for instance, when presented with the view of the WHOLE REST OF THE WORLD, do you default to a concern about the nations that are a-ggin us? How about all our allies, who prefer Obama as well? How about those nations we have normalized relations with but aren't strictly fur or a-ggin us? How about the COMMUNITY that the world is, of which we're an important member, but ONLY a member?

dc_dux

ace....suggesting that you withhold further criticism of Obama supporters as being w/o life goals or ambitions...is dishonest?

I wasnt the one who posted this: "objective" critique of Obama supporters:
No...I'm not satisfied with being "average"...and I dont know Obama supporters who are.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

In context, this was war-time rhetoric. The issue of global terrorism impacts the world. People need to make a choice to fight for freedom and peace or fight against it. I understand how others see a middle ground, but I don't and think they are wrong.

It is bellicose. During war that is how leaders speak. I think the disconnect is with some not believing we are at war. How would you communicate to those who want us dead?

Because I think those "a-ggin us" are more motivated than those that are with us.

I am a cynic. People do what is in their best interest, not yours. I am always going to suspect those offering free advice intended for my good.

I am not saying that people in other nations can't voice their opinion, I am just saying their opinion has very little value to me. I understand that it is more important to others, and I wanted to get a better understanding of why it is important to them.
-----Added 4/11/2008 at 12 : 44 : 59-----
If you are saying you don't understand my comment that is one thing, but you never asked for clarification.

The concept behind "spreading wealth", and the concept of many Democratic economic policy positions is based on shrinking the spread between those that have a lot of wealth and those who do not. The war on poverty started in the 60's was intended to move as many people to the middle class as possible. The impact of these policies is to make the normal distribution curve taller in the middle - average. I don't understand how you dispute that intent.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

telekinetic

Since you were responding to a question about the poll, I have to believe you mean they are more motivated to vote, thus skewing the readings.

So, here are the countries with the most votes in the poll (most more than 15,000), and the percentage from that country that voted for Obama:

Australia - 92%
Brazil - 86%
Canada - 89%
Denmark - 96%
Finland - 93%
France - 94%
New Zealand - 93%
Portugal - 93.3%
Sweden - 93%

Does that represent some sort of conspiracy theorist Axis of Evil that I'm unaware of? The poll isn't even really the point, the point is the entire WORLD is universally hoping we elect Obama.

aceventura3

No, I meant it in a more general sense, those that are against us or those competing against us are more motivated to act or encourage us to act in a manner in their interest rather than ours.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

telekinetic

What does that have to do with a poll showing the whole world, allies, enemies and indifferents, wants us to elect Obama?

ratbastid

Yes, you frequently do, when confronted with details.

But, to go ahead and bite on your little theory: You really think the Taliban are over there rubbing their hands in glee that we're following their fiendishly cunning suggestion of electing Obama? This isn't a grade school playground, dude.

aceventura3

It is related to the dangling follow-up question - why do they think Obama will be good for America? Then - Is what is good for America, good for them?
-----Added 4/11/2008 at 02 : 20 : 39-----
Yes we all know I am full of flaws. We all know I am arrogant, and that I pretty much don't care when people point them out. But, on the other hand taking a shot at me, makes it easier to ignore the point I made. I accept that too.

I did not bring up the Taliban, but something as simple as European nations wanting us to stop using coal to minimize greenhouse emissions and knowing the positions of the two candidates, this indicates that their interests may not be in line with ours. If Obama's plan is to bankrupt coal producing power plants, when we don't have an alternative source in place, i.e., nuclear like Europe, indicates having their favor may be very costly and harmful to our nation in many ways. So, Europeans may love Obama for saying "no" to coal, but I am more interested in a good transitional plan that may not get us there as soon as some would like.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

An Iranian banker sums up the concern of what a stronger US/European coalition may mean to Iran as a result of an Obama victory:
The sentiment that a stronger US/European relationship may be forged with an Obama presidency is widespread among our allies and probably our adversaries as well.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

This supports my original point on this issue. The person quoted is against an Obama Presidency because of his interests, not ours. If Obama can bring stability to the ME through the use of sanctions with the cooperation of other nations, I would support Obama and his efforts, just as I originally supported UN sanctions and punitive resolutions against Iraq.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

Ace...the broader point is the belief is widespread among allies and adversaries that a US/European (and other allies) coalition is likely to be strengthened under an Obama administration.

There is a reason why nearly every government leader who was part of Bush's "coalition" is no longer in office.

They were all tossed out in part because the citizens of those countries wanted nothing more to do with the bullying belligerent war hawkish diplomatic approach of the current US administration.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ratbastid

ace, it's continually surprising to me how much you don't see "us versus them" as one possible view of the world, but instead subscribe to it fully as The Truth. It's The Truth that your government has been feeding you. It's not The Truth.

Maybe what's good for our allies IS good for us. I know--they're over there and we're over here and we're just fundamentally DIFFERENT and SEPARATE, but you might notice that we all live on the same planet and we're all capable of inflicting pain on each other.

rmarshall

Up here in Canada, when the USA farts, we smell it. Heck, when Detroit and Chicago farts, we get acid rain in the Thousand Islands.

This was in the Kingston Whig Standard this morning:

__________________
"Do not resent growing old. Many are denied the privilege" Irish proverb

aceventura3

I got that point, I acknowledge that point. Understand what I am putting on the table - I will use an example, you and me for example - If I start agreeing with everything you say, we can form a coalition and it would be strengthened whenever I do what you think I should do. My point is that, me agreeing with you and doing what you think I should do may not be in my interest - it may be in your interest - you may start to like me - but there are broader needs than being liked. If one can serve those broader needs and be liked, then that is a perfect situation.

I hold our nation in higher regard, I don't agree with your assessment of what we have done in the past 8 years. Standing up for what is right is not bullying, not belligerent, not war hawkish. Doing what others are afraid to do is an example of courage in my book.
-----Added 4/11/2008 at 04 : 12 : 12-----
I clearly see the "us versus them". I give examples of what I think is true and how it may be out of sync with the rest of the world, let's say we disagree - but to suggest I am blindly accepting some false truth fed to me simply is a refusal to address issues. It is subterfuge. It is an example of what I alluded to earlier today.

I agree. All I said was in some cases it may not be.

True, but there is no point of self-inflicted pain just to be liked.
-----Added 4/11/2008 at 04 : 23 : 08-----
And Canada has an impact on the US. Do the people in Canada want their leaders to follow the wishes of American politicians just so Canadians will be liked by Americans, or do they want their leaders to do what is in Canada's interest? I think nations are best served and relationships are solidified when both parties are honest about their needs and concerns. If one nation subjugates its interests to another, they will get what they deserve. If I were in Canada I would not tolerate American farts.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."