Telluride

I guess I just don't see how Person A has a responsibility for the housing needs/desires of Person B.

EDIT: The Hayek quote in my signature seems appropriate here.

I still don't see that any type of discrimination is irresponsible. It's bad for business, but being a dick to potential customers isn't something the government should be involved in, in my opinion.

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Willravel

They'd have no case. Churches have the right to marry whomever they want. And a no vote on Prop 8 had nothing to do with churches. Just FYI.
I won a Tilted Monthly (now quarterly, I believe) award for Tilted Politico.

Telluride

I know that Prop 8 had nothing to do with churches. However, churches can and do perform marriages. I can easily see a "discrimination" lawsuit over a refusal to perform a same-sex marriage. Not having a valid case won't stop people from being assholes and trying to sue.

Cool.

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Willravel

That's possible, but a few nutbar lawsuits don't seem to constitute a legitimate gripe with same-sex marriage. Unless you were just making a general statement that some people are assholes, which I would agree with.

Telluride

My point was that when the same-sex marriage debate is said and done (if it's ever said and done), assholes on both sides of the issue will probably have been exposed. It has nothing to do with my opinion on whether or not same-sex marriage should be legal, though.

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

filtherton

It should come as no shocker to you or Hayek that existence in any society necessarily requires a balance between individual and collective rights.

And in any case, it isn't nearly so simple as Person A and Person B. Imagine all of the landlords in an entire neighborhood won't rent to people of a certain skin color. At some point, individual effects become collective effects.

It isn't necessarily bad for business. I imagine in some places the right type of discrimination is very profitable.

The problem (for folk who share your perspective) is that most of your country folk seem to disagree with you about the extent to which the government should be involved with the practices of private businesspeople. The "shoulds" aren't really all that important to me. As far as I'm concerned, the issue here is that landlords failed to exercise their unenumerated rights with foresight, and in doing so, lost them.

Derwood

It amazes me that certain people's blind ideal of "hands off government" leads them to actually strive for a society where a restaurant can refuse to serve you for being black or a movie theater can post "NO HOMOS" signs on their door. There's a serious "forest for the trees" problem in this line of thinking. I know it's fun to want chaos, but it's completely impractical.

I'll also venture a guess that the people who "have no problem with" landlords telling minorities to fuck off are not, in fact, minorities.

filtherton

I think that type of worldview in part relies on very simplistic notions about the effectiveness of market self regulation.

Telluride

What are some of these "collective rights"?

I'm more concerned with rights than effects.

Possibly so, but blatant discrimination against race/ethnicity/gender/etc. will burn business owners more often than it helps them.
-----Added 8/1/2009 at 06 : 06 : 57-----
I have no objection to self-regulation to whatever extent that it exists, but my motive here is property rights. I'm looking for ways to protect individual rights, not punish people who use their rights in ways that I dislike.

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

filtherton

There are a lot of them. Look up The Bill of Rights if you want to see some.

No, you're just deluding yourself. Rights are meaningful because they have effects. To claim that you're just concerned about rights and not effects doesn't make any sense. Will you fight to preserve my right to shoot laser beams out of my eyes at invisible chocolate bears?

Perhaps in some contexts it will, but I bet you don't have any sort of solid data concerning the burn rate of discriminatory businesses.

That's convenient. All I'm saying is that by only focusing on rights guaranteed to individuals, you actually are missing out on a lot of important rights.

Telluride

Oddly enough, I'd consider those to be individual rights.

I guess I should clarify. I'm more concerned with upholding rights than with protecting people from any annoying effects of those rights.

Nope. Is there data concerning potential benefits of discrimination that you alluded to?

Like what?

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

filtherton

How would the right to assemble count as an individual right? Granted, it depends on the context...

And I'm more concerned with the ability of US citizen's to regulate detrimental, constitutionally unprotected behavior.

See Southern Slavery. Though admittedly, they did get a bit burned.

There's about a mile long stretch of Park avenue just outside of downtown Minneapolis where black people just weren't allowed in the early part of last century (I'm not sure exactly about the time range here). For many of the people who lived there that was part of its appeal. I don't have hard data about the amount of money made, but I'm pretty certain that a considerable amount of money was made in conjunction with keeping black people out of this area.

To get topical:

The right to not be discriminated against based on race/gender/ethnicity/ancestry/sexual orientation when one is trying to find an apartment.

The right to go to a restaurant without being exposed to cigarette smoke.

What, you've never heard of these rights? Well geez, they are just as valid as rights as the right of private businesspeople to decide what goes on in their private businesses.

Perhaps it is better to just consider them individual rights. In fact, pretend I never mentioned collective rights at all, they aren't really all that important to what I'm trying to say.

Jinn

I think it stems from a myopic view of government from Reagan, Bush Senior, even Clinton that the problem was "too much government" or "the government is the problem" which seems to point towards pointless anarchy or de-regulation or allowances which defy common sense. The government is here for a REASON, one of them is to protect the rights of all citizens. Government can be a beneficial thing, and it's not always the problem. We really do have government for a reason.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

dksuddeth

how is this right 'collective'? Does this mean that I, as an individual, cannot organize, schedule, and then participate in a protest unless i'm part of an organization? That I can't paint myself a big sign and stand on a street corner by myself yelling 'the end is near'?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

filtherton

Can you assemble by yourself? Isn't that loitering?

Actually, I think you're right. If you read the end of that post you'd see that I admitted that the "collective right" thing was a boondoggle.

roachboy

isn't law in itself social or collective?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

filtherton

It depends on how you look at it.

Collective rights are exercised by individuals. Or some shit. Perhaps one of our legal scholars can elucidate.

Derwood

This just in: Supporters of Prop 8 are cowards and don't want anyone to know they supported it:

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingn...nclick_check=1

SACRAMENTO—Supporters of the November ballot measure that banned gay marriages in California have filed a lawsuit seeking to block their campaign finance records from public view, saying the reports have led to harassment of donors.

"No one should have to worry about getting a death threat because of the way he or she votes," said James Bopp Jr., an attorney representing two groups that supported Proposition 8, Protect Marriage.com and the National Organization for Marriage California.

"This lawsuit will protect the right of all people to help support causes they agree with, without having to worry about harassment or threats."

The lawsuit, filed Wednesday in federal court in Sacramento, asks the court to order the secretary of state's office to remove all donations for the proposition from its Web site. The groups announced the lawsuit Thursday.

It also asks the court to relieve the two groups and "all similarly situated persons" from having to meet the state's campaign disclosure requirements. That would include having to file a final report on Proposition 8 contributions at the end of January, as well as reports for any future campaigns the groups undertake.

Proposition 8, approved by 52.3 percent of California voters on Nov. 4, overturned a state Supreme Court decision that declared the state's ban on same-sex marriage was unconstitutional. The measure's opponents have gone back to the Supreme Court, asking it to overturn the proposition.
Advertisement

The lawsuit by Bopp's clients cites a series of incidents in which those who gave money to support the ballot measure have received threatening phone calls, e-mails and postcards. One woman reported being told, "If I had a gun, I would have gunned you down along with each and every other supporter."

Another donor had a widow broken, one had a flier distributed around his hometown calling him a bigot and others have received envelopes containing suspicious white power, according to the lawsuit.

Businesses have been threatened with boycotts because people who worked there contributed to the Proposition 8 campaign, the suit said. In Sacramento, the artistic director of the musical theater company resigned after his $1,000 donation to the Proposition 8 campaign was made public, prompting threats to boycott the company's productions.

Supporters of the gay marriage ban fear the donor backlash will hurt their efforts to raise money in the future, perhaps to fight a ballot initiative seeking to overturn the constitutional amendment.

"Several donors have indicated that they will not contribute to committee plaintiffs or similar organizations in the future because of the threats and harassment directed at them as a result of their contributions ... and the public disclosure of that fact," the lawsuit said.

"Indeed, there is significant evidence that, because of the disclosure of their names, donations to groups supporting the passage of Proposition 8 led directly to those donors being singled out for threats, harassment and reprisals."

The lawsuit said courts have held that laws requiring disclosure of campaign contributions can be overturned or restricted if a group can make "an uncontroverted showing" that identifying its members can result in economic reprisals or threats of physical coercion.

California's current campaign finance laws date to the Political Reform Act of 1974, a voter-approved initiative that established disclosure requirements for candidates and campaign committees.

The secretary of state's office and another defendant, the state's Fair Political Practices Commission, had no immediate comment on the suit.

But Geoff Kors, executive director of Equality California, the gay-rights group that led the campaign against Proposition 8, called it hypocritical for supporters of the measure to try to overturn voter-approved campaign finance laws.

He said Proposition 8 supporters used campaign finance records during the campaign to threaten and attack gay-rights supporters.

"They've used these records to attack corporations, to attack individuals," Kors said. "The Yes on 8 campaign sent blackmail letters to No on 8 supporters.

"It's just amazing hypocrisy. But it's the kind of tactics we've seen from them throughout the campaign and time and time again since."

Peter Scheer, executive director of the First Amendment Coalition, a group that supports public access to government records and meetings, said the lawsuit is likely to be unsuccessful. But he also said the plaintiffs' arguments are not trivial.

"The problem with their argument, of course, is that campaign finance laws, both at the state and federal level, have been litigated endlessly now since Watergate and the argument has, in one form or another, been rejected."

He said courts have consistently failed to agree that contributors have a right to donate directly and anonymously to a candidate or campaign. He said some states choose to have less restrictive reporting requirements, but they always include disclosure of donors.

"It loses in the end, but it's not as crazy an idea or an argument as it may first appear to some people," Scheer said.

---------------------------------------------

Oh the irony; these folks had no idea plundering the donor info of the "No on 8" campaign to harass those voting against it, but now that THEY are being harassed, it's suddenly an issue and they want special privileges.

Seriously, own up. Choices have consequences, and you shouldn't expect political protection because you acted on an unpopular opinion.

Willravel

Um, it's way too late for that. The list is available online and has been copied and posted again and again. I even have a copy of it somewhere on my hard drive (Cambrian Animal Hospital, my old pet hospital, was on the list. I've since changed to a better vet).

Derwood

well there's no way that the state will grant them this anyways (I'd think), so really this is more about trying to put some spin onto an ugly situation. Reading between the lines, this story boils down to: "Uh oh, we've pissed off a lot of people and they're not taking it lightly so let's play the victim card to buy some time"

connyosis

Nice. So after threatening (PageOneQ | Anti-gay blackmailers demand protection money from gay marriage supporters) companies who donated to No on 8 to publish their names if they did not make a same size donation to Yes on 8, they now want to prevent names of proponents to be published. Just wow.

__________________
If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

FoolThemAll

No, they really aren't. You don't have a right to that which you didn't earn or weren't gifted. There's nothing rational about a 'right' to a space that someone else bought/inherited, someone else maintained, a space for which someone else bears responsibility. That's not 'just as valid', that's confiscation of someone's hard work. Maybe not even the work of the mean bigot down the street, but then from the hard work of the mean bigot's mean bigot father. This even goes for those heathen smokers as well.

And there's a word for taking stuff from people who are mean to you, solely because they're mean to you - and it's far from my first usage, but it continues to be fitting - it's childish.

Good idea. If not "all imagined rights are equal", perhaps "let's talk about something else".

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

filtherton

I think someone needs to stop and reflect upon the arbitrariness of his worldview before he goes around subjugating other folks arbitrarily defined rights beneath his arbitrarily defined rights.

The right to live somewhere without being unduly discriminated against is just as valid as the right to rent to whomever you want to. This is because neither of these things is actually a "right". They are just things that different folks think ought to be rights.

There's a word for this response, and it's "oversimplification".

FoolThemAll

Or someone needs to reflect upon the baseless application of the label 'arbitrary'.

I'm trying to figure out if you mean something other than "different people have different ideas, therefore all ideas are equal". Or "all is arbitrary, so let's do things my way".

I consider a right to be the moral ownership of a particular ability or object. That is what I mean when I say 'right'. When you say that people should be forced to rent to other people, why do you not then consider that a right? What do you mean when you say 'right'?

Try to make me understand how "neither of these are rights" isn't just a meaningless distraction.

Feel free to provide me with a counterexample.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

filtherton

Arbitrary, as in, the things you think are important aren't the same as the things other people think are important. The things you think are rights are just the things you think are rights, they aren't actually rights in the sense that they aren't behaviors allowed by people with more power than you.

If you want to distill it down, my position is that "rights" are determined by the folks with the power to give and take them, and that all this high minded talk of a person's "right" to decide specific things about his/her property doesn't amount to a whole lot more than pissing in the wind.

My "way" doesn't matter, because I don't have a particular way with respect to the moral high ground of landlord/tenant relations (well, actually I do, but it's a stupid thing to argue about, so I won't). All I have pointed out is that in the past, certain landlords have shown an inability to perform their jobs as landlords to the satisfaction of their fellow citizens, and that, in fact, they failed so miserably that the ensuing public outcry resulted in a significant reduction in the things they could do in their capacity as landlords. I neither endorsed nor denounced what happened.

Try to make me understand how "neither of these are rights" isn't just a meaningless distraction.[/quote]

I don't think that they're rights in a moral sense, if that's what you're asking.

A counterexample of what? Your thesis that was a complete misunderstanding of everything that I said?

Let the complete lack of any mention by me that *mean people should have their stuff taken from them for being mean* anywhere in this thread by the counterexample then.

FoolThemAll

In the sense that the right to life is only a right when others let you live. In the sense that all moral judgments are equally arbitrary. Sure. I'm okay with residing within that miles-wide definition of 'arbitrary'.

Why are you even slightly passionate about your own position, then? Sounds like the wind's blowing both ways in your world.

The hell you didn't. Terms like 'failed' and 'inability' are pretty obviously loaded. If you wanted to pretend neutrality about the issue, "certain landlords didn't satisfy the general public with their actions" would've shrouded your obvious endorsement at least a little better. 'Failed' and 'inability' clearly carry the implication that a job was not done as it should have been done.

Did you really imagine that I wasn't talking about rights in the moral sense? The legal sense is pretty clear-cut. There's not much to debate there.

Well, you'd be about as likely to phrase it that way as a neutral observer using "failed miserably". But is there some other unifying principle besides 'they're being mean to prospective tenants'? What separates this case from punishing meanness in general?

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

filtherton

Good. Now, the next time you see fit to argue matters of morality, remember that arguing that a given thing should be simply because it is moral is a waste of time. It's as useful as getting all huffy about aesthetics. You know, like forming a passionate argument for why purple is the best color.

I know how I think things ought to be, but it isn't really relevant here. I'm not interested in arguing about what is right or wrong.

So wait... Are you trying to get all PC on me? Was my language too mean? Holy smokes. You're right. How's this: Those poor widdle wacist wandwodes got all mixed up in being wacist wandwodes and mean ode west of america towd dem dat dey coodnt be wacist wandwodes any mow.

Were you hoping to tap some hidden reservoir of debate? Because there isn't much to debate with respect to "moral" rights either. You either think something is a moral right or you don't-- there isn't a lot of wiggle room.

Broadly-scoped patterns of discrimination tend to have far reaching effects that overshadow any sort of quaint notion of meanness. When entire neighborhoods become segregated because it is profitable to segregate them then the situation has moved beyond meanness. Do you think the worst thing about racism is that it is mean?

FoolThemAll

You're not interested in arguing your viewpoint?

You don't read well. I wasn't pointing out that you were hurting their feelings, I was pointing out that your claim to neutrality was laughably and obviously false. So don't claim it.

Spoken like a man with an exceptionally shallow understanding of moral rights debates. Not that I'm a prodigy, but... damn. You can clarify why you consider something a moral right or not a moral right. That's more than enough to keep you busy for the rest of your life. Maybe it's because you have superficial reasons for your chosen rights and, thus, everyone else must be like you in this way.

Racism in general? Of course not. But we were talking about a specific kind of racism. Beyond meanness, in this context, lies what? What justifies your proposed right to integrated apartments?

Better yet, before you answer that, answer this: are you interested in defending your viewpoint or are you not?

If you're not, please stop half-pretending that you are.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

filtherton

I'm not interested in arguing the viewpoint you seem intent on attributing to me.

And you read too well. Apparently the way I stated the facts was too harsh, and so that means, well, I don't know what that means. I guess that I like taking away the rights of mean people? Or not. You seem rather incapable of offering much besides criticisms of the things I say. Perhaps if you would come out and state exactly what your position is on the matter, then I wouldn't have to hop around from one thing to another trying to figure out just exactly what the point of anything you're saying is.

Here's what happened: some landlords failed to behave in socially acceptable ways-- they showed an inability to behave in a way that society found acceptable. I'm sorry that the mere mention of these facts implies about me, well, whatever the hell you think it implies about me. Your attributions of me aren't my responsibility. I just thought it odd that you'd be so sensitive to language.

No, it's not. It's a waste of time-- at least as far as conversations with you have been. Hey FTA, why is abortion murder? Let me answer for you: because it is. That's all moral judgments boil down to: convoluted, self important rationalizations of "because it is".

I suggest you reread what I wrote. The part before the only part you responded to. This part:

And then think about the ramifications of segregation, and how chalking it up to "meanness" is a gross oversimplification.

I'm not interested in defending phantom viewpoints that you seem to be reading in between the lines of what I'm actually writing, if that's what you're asking. Besides, you ought to offer up some sort of viewpoint of your own before you criticize my ability to defend my viewpoint (regardless of whether it's actually my viewpoint or not). This sideways-socratic method thing you do is kind of annoying.

FoolThemAll

I must be seeing things, then.


Already done. You can always ask for clarification.

The general public failed to safeguard the property rights of landowners and abetted theft under cover of Civil Rights laws. There's some facts, too. Surely made by a neutral observer.

It takes no more than a very basic sensitivity to language to realize that you have a horse in this race. And that's even without referencing that second quote in this post. Stop being disingenuous.

No, don't answer for me. You do a poor job.

I thought about it. Now you tell me why you consider it a gross oversimplification. Why it's the kind of meanness that deserves government intervention. Not the 'is', the 'ought'. I'm well-aware of the 'is' already.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

filtherton

Well, seeing things or not, I'm not interested in arguing about those things here, so if that's what you want to argue about, I suggest you start your very own thread with a clearly defined subject concerning your beliefs about property rights.

Please clarify.

What's your point? If you want to argue with facts, argue with facts. Don't play some silly game about how the facts were presented in a mean way.

I have admitted to having a horse in this race. I have also stated that I though my horse in this race was irrelevant to the discussion because this isn't about whether I think racism is bad, it's about landlords being responsive to the communities in which they exist.

I've had that discussion with you. I didn't to a poor job of answering at all. I merely distilled the essence. It is the same essence that serves as the basis of every "moral" principle.

There are any number of threads here, as well as a lot of bits elsewhere that shed light on the continuing effects that institutional racism has had on our society. If you're really interested, look them shits up. I'm not going to, because frankly, I don't think it's all that important that I convince you of anything.

FoolThemAll

So you changed your mind and no longer wanted to argue the morality of it. That's all you had to say.

Which part is confusing you?

That when you claimed no endorsement on your part, you were lying. That's the point. It's not relevant to the debate - it's relevant to how you tiptoed out of the debate without admitting as much, which is fairly annoying.

I cleared up your misrepresentation - "you're being mean!" - and you repeat it here nonetheless. Also lying - unless you just skipped that part of my post - and also annoying.

I say I mean A, B, and C, but you say that I really just mean D. I guess I should just trust you instead of myself.

Nah. You answered poorly. Don't answer for me - ask me. Please stop persisting in inventing new arguments for me - I like my own just fine.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Derwood

KRON 4 News, Ustream.TV: San Francisco Local News and Information. Travel&Nature,Traffic,Weather,News,Local News

Live Stream of today's California State Supreme Court hearings

Willravel

Thanks, Derwood!

Derwood

Ken Starr was representing the supporters of Prop 8, but it didn't seem to be going well for him. The justices kept saying (basically) "you want us (the court) to tell 18,000 couples that the marriage that we told them was legal and binding a year ago is no longer legal and binding?"

Then one of the lawyers who represented the opposition to Prop 8 opened by saying that "the will of the majority" in this case runs in direct opposition to the constitutional right to equal protection because there are built in prejudices in the voting body. Had you asked "the people" 50 years ago to vote on whether or not a black man could marry a white woman, what do you think the outcome would be? He also pointed out that if gender is a trait that can't be used to discriminate, then neither should homosexuality, especially with the separation of church and state.

It was very interesting to hear both sides. I'm not sure when a decision is expected.

Willravel

The blonde female attorney for the side against Prop 8 was eloquent and thoughtful. I really enjoyed listening to her arguments.

Derwood

I'm hoping there's a transcript available soon. I missed a good deal of the beginning

Derwood

Congrats to Iowa, who got this right. And the best part is that it can't be overturned by a 51% popular vote.

Suck it, mormons

dksuddeth

best part of that whole statement and needs to be seriously recognized for ALL constitutional rights.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

California Supreme Court will give their ruling on Tuesday, May 26