Ger.Man

I found it interesting to watch how McCain focused on portraying Obama as inexperienced and naive ('what Senator Obama doesn't seem to understand...').

Willravel

I'm really glad McCain didn't do well on foreign policy. That's supposed to be his bread and butter. The last debate will be on the economy, a place where Obama has a clear advantage. That's the debate that will be the most fresh in the mind of undecided, and that may make the election.

People are scared about the economy, and I don't see that changing between now and November 5.

tisonlyi

This, I fear.

I think that some people will listen to what they want out of it, and McCain may well get a bounce from it, simply for a few one liners that talking heads can reproduce.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

abaya

We had a live feed here in Iceland, 1-2:30am... ktsp and I stayed up to watch it. One thing I will say here is that I disliked how McCain NEVER acknowledged Obama on stage. Hardly even gave him a glance, even when Obama was speaking directly to him. Neither candidate did a very good job of talking directly with each other the first 10 minutes or so, but after the moderator repeatedly asked them to do so, I think Obama did just that. He looked up at McCain when McCain was speaking, and he directed most of his points towards McCain. McCain, however, just looked down or at the camera/audience... he never looked at Obama, never said "Barack" or "you" to the senator himself... always talked about Obama in 3rd person, "Senator Obama says this, does that" but never directly. This annoyed me to no end. It was like McCain couldn't even tune his body language to seeing Obama on his same level, and I think that says a great deal about his attitude as well. I thought he was a horrible debater, personally. Obama was not extremely strong, but I believe he pulled out on top by some margin. I look forward to reading analyses the rest of the weekend. Must sleep now, 3am.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Willravel

BTW, Biden will be on Countdown tonight (MSNBC). It will be interesting to see what he might say.

Have a good sleep, Abaya!

Tully Mars

I think it was a tie... but McCain's lack of eye contact is just weird. It's like there's something distracting him on the end of the mic. Look at the camera? No. Opponent? No. Mic? Yes.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

tisonlyi

OOF

Who won, yes it's MSNBC

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Jozrael

tisonly, I'm not quite sure why you fear my response.

@abaya: Very good point.

I'm going to bed before then will. =(

WOW good numbers on that poll.

Tully Mars

That's what I was trying to say. But of course you said it much better, thanks.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

tisonlyi

If the debate is played as 'pretty even' by the talking heads and then they endlessly replay one-liners... McCain wins overall.

Soundbite politics for sub 90 IQ.

Sorry.

*PHEAR*

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Derwood

no clear winner, which favors the guy in the lead (ie: Obama)

Tully Mars

Thought the polls had them tied?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Jove

If I interpreted this correctly, it sounds like Mccain will go to war with any country that he doesn't like and he is going to add a lot of money into the department of defense and eliminate departments that are not important (which one are those?). Also, it is fundamentally important that he veto those bills that go across his desk with a permanent marker.

McCain seemed to get royally upset with Obama about an hour and five minutes into the debate. Yikes.

Jozrael

I disagree with that in many respects.

A: McCain was viewed as the clear leader in this before it started. That Obama would even be considered even is a major -loss- for McCain.

B: McCain's polls have been falling. He needed a decisive victory here to post him back up to par with Obama.

C: They both had good soundbites. I fail to see why people would really be swayed one way or the other. Those people who are really going to parrot the soundbites are those who already had their minds made up.

@Jove: Actually, one of the few points I preferred McCain on was about Pakistan, which Obama seemed far more willing to invade. This was about Osama.

filtherton

It was engaging enough to prevent me from getting much homework done, I don't know if that speaks more to the quality of the debate or to the excitement I derive from HVAC analysis.

I liked when Obama lectured McCain about his support for the invasion of Iraq and McCain's response was essentially, "Well, the thing about that is that I have a bracelet."

The whole bracelet segment was a bit surreal, I have to say.

Tully Mars

Yeah, but then Obama pointed out he's got a bracelet too

HVAC? High voltage or heating and A/C? or... something I never heard of?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

filtherton

HVAC stands for Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning and it won't be a bad place to be, provided people are still able to finance new buildings when I finish school in May.

Yes, the bracelet thing was odd. It seemed like it would have been a pretty lame gimmick if only one of them had brought it up. The fact that both of them did kind of cancels it out-- like the lameness offsets and all that we're left with is each of the two presidential candidates trying to outdo the other's ability to accessorize at the behest of grieving mothers.

tisonlyi

CNN poll:

Debate winner:
Obama 51 - McCain 38

Iraq:
Obama 52 - McCain 47

Economy:
Obama 58 - McCain 37

Ouch.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Paq

watching hte lines again, people REALLY rejected mccain when he was condescending to obama's experience...

__________________
Live.

Chris

Charlatan

Those scores look about right based on the metrics I was seeing on screen.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Willravel

Guess what? Obama is polling ahead on every major news site, including Fox News:

flstf

Reminded me of a high school drill with the teacher trying to get the students to talk directly to each other. I wish one of them had said "just ask the damn questions, I'll address John/Barack when I think it is appropriate".

I thought McCain did pretty well remembering most of the countries and leaders names but he came across as almost fearful to talk to any country that did not agree with us.

Makedde

I need to find this debate on YouTube or something. As I am not in the US, I wasn't able to watch it.

__________________
Sun flames and moons glow, timeless the tides will flow, what will I face, what will be mine, fortune and fate the other side...

Rekna

Listen to this:


Did McCain really say "horseshit" under his breath in response to what Obama said?

Willravel

He's known for his temper. It sounds very much like he said horseshit.
-----Added 27/9/2008 at 02 : 50 : 35-----
BBC News has the full debate.

SecretMethod70

You know, I was wondering what he said at that point...now that you mention it, it *does* kinda sound like "horseshit." I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Paq

i thought that is what i heard, but i thought i misheard or something

__________________
Live.

Chris

abaya

Well, to be fair, Obama did say "orgy" at one point... which cracked me up. (About the Bush administration's "orgy of spending.")

I really feel like the point I noted last night, about McCain not even acknowledging Obama via body language or direct language, could almost be interpreted as a racial thing. I know others will argue about that, but that's how I felt. He also kept talking over Obama, and Obama was the more polite one and kept asking Jim to stop McCain, but McCain just went on talking. It was like he just wanted to railroad Obama and totally ignore his presence on stage, and make him seem like a "boy" instead of his match. Just my feelings.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

jorgelito

As long as Iraq pays the bill and pays us back I am ok with it. They owe us big time.
-----Added 27/9/2008 at 06 : 47 : 16-----
you can listen to it on NPR.org.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

jewels

And I used to like McCain. Either his memory's shot or he's gotten way too cocky, but I can't stand watching him speak. I see a shades of GW. He's there and can talk somewhat intelligently for a moment, but the rest is like a soundbyte stuck in a loop.

He was condescending, avoided every question and although the tactic was to make Obama seem green, he succeeded in showing his clueless, controlling side. Decisive? Not in my book. Dictatorial maybe ...

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Jove

Question 1: What programs will McCain eliminate if he is elected president?
Question 2: How does one know if a person is a KGB agent?

archetypal fool

I'm not particularly for either candidate... but I've been keeping track of the run. My favorite part of the debate was when McCain stated some point (I forget at the moment... I haven't slept in 22 hours, lol), to which Obama responded "That's a mischaracterization of my position," or something along those lines - I really wanted to hear McCain defend his ads, which have all been gross distortions of Obama's positions. And I also found the fact that McCain constantly tried to downplay Obama with his whole "Obama just doesn't seem to understand, etc, etc" simply reprehensible - Obama's inexperience seems to be one of McCain's favorite arguments (though he doesn't seem to mind Palin's inexperience nearly as much... hmm...). And of course, as you've all said, the way that McCain ignored Obama throughout was very disrespectful. It made me uncomfortable. I also wanted to hear McCain defend his claim that he'll take care of veterans... when his service record shows that he votes against veterans' benefits 70% of the time. And personally vetoing every spending bill that comes to his desk, without exception? Really? Our country's money shouldn't just go to defense (read: offense) like he explicitly stated - spending bills for science, education, public benefits, etc., should all be considered objectively.

Obama, in my opinion, fared well... I used to be put off by his whole position on Pakistan, but the way he explained it made a lot of sense... though I'm not sold.

I think this debate can be considered a victory by either side - there really wasn't as much passionate debate as I'd hoped - so I don't think it will make many people switch candidates; though I feel there was enough to sway more independents to Obama's side than McCain's.

I can't wait for the next one (or the VPs).

__________________
I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet

ratbastid

I REALLY wanted Obama to call McCain out on his lies. His "That's not true", and "That's as mischaracterization of my position" was just weak. Imagine if he said, "You know, the last several weeks, I keep having this surreal experience in this campaign. I say something, and then almost immediately I hear a distorted, misquoted, twisted, 'gotcha' version of it echoed from the McCain campaign. Senator, I call on you tonight to put an end to the deception in this campaign. You are an honorable man, and the American people deserve better from their Presidential candidates."

Look in his eyes, evidently.

Tully Mars

Yeah, or it stands for "high voltage alternating current."

I thought the bracelet thing was one of Obama'a lowest points. "I have a bracelet too, I have a bracelet too."

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

archetypal fool

It's sad - using someone else's pain and loss as a basis for personal political gain. And as awkward and out-of-place as it felt, I feel that it was a necessary move by Obama. The fact that McCain brought it up first was despicable in itself, but it would have been sadder if Obama hadn't said anything and the right could champion their wonderfully compassionate McCain, who wears a bracelet of a dead soldier (supposedly in solidarity, and not for political points) - which would have made the cheap appeal to emotion successful.

If Obama hadn't said anything, it would have looked bad for him ("well... HE doesn't have a bracelet... I guess that means he doesn't care about the death of our troops!"... yes... a good deal of the population is that shallow), and I doubt he would have brought it up if not for McCain's disgusting appeal to emotion.

All that aside, the duality of the the two mothers' responses to the deaths of their sons is very interesting... one says "don't let my son's death be in vein; finish the fight," while the other says "I don't want any other mother to go through what I've gone through." ... it's an analog to the way the US is split on the issue of the war(s).

__________________
I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet

Tully Mars

Looking back you're probably right. Obama probably needed to respond in kind. But yes, it's sad the loss of life was used for political gain. I just watched Obama and thought he sounded a little less presidential when he stated "I have one too."

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

abaya

Very well said. I thought it was an awkward moment as well--but I really doubt Obama would have busted out that bracelet if McCain hadn't done it first. It was more like he was wearing it for debate insurance than for politics, but maybe it's all the same thing.

I despised that way McCain continually laughed at Obama (without even acknowledging him, as I keep saying)--I felt that Obama really was the bigger man here. He chuckled a few times when he heard McCain lying about something, but otherwise he maintained his composure and professionalism. McCain, on the other hand, sounded like a jackdaw imitating Bush every time he laughed... and WTF is with his KGB obsession? Hello!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Tully Mars

I don't understand the term "jackdaw."

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

ratbastid

Actually, I thought he sounded like Jon Stewart's impression of Bush's laugh. That's WAY worse for him!

He's raising the whole cold war spectre, because he wants to be the next Regan and has to create a Russia that's a threat. He doesn't care if it's actually Russia--Iran would be fine too. But he's got to make a bad guy who's bad and who we'd never legitimize by talking to. Legitimizing them by committing billions in military adventurism, sure, but using our words??? Never.

Halx

I had a few friends over to watch.

First, I noticed how McCain would insult Obama any chance he could get.

Second, McCain just sounds like he's trying to deceive. He doesn't converse with Obama, he just absorbs what is said and gives his own version of it.

Third, Obama just looks more composed. McCain had several weird looks about him throughout the night. The awkward part is that his face can't contort correctly.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]