thespian86

This discussion had become something else when I joined the conversation and I was reacting both to the idea of American's not being arrogant, as well as reacting to your post that proceeded mine.

And my points, if you'll read my original post, were not about what you are, but rather how you are perceived. And you continually found a way to further yourself into that stereotype in how you reacted. It's childish dude, that's all.

And the point I made about you skipping all of the points that seemed to not fit within your given topic was ignored, and you picked out the three things I made a joke about. I don't feel comfortable enough to have a discussion about American missteps because what I once learned and thought about have kind of left over the years of studying something else; which sucks.

You're being argumentative for arguments sake now, which is terrible because this is a great topic. But your seemingly endless tirade about American non-superiority (which comes off terribly superior) is becoming very tedious. Unless you have something to add from here I'm done. I should have joined you abaya and jazz long ago.

I don't hate American's, but I hate douches. Try to be a respectable first one, instead of the latter, and internationals won't link the two.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

The_Jazz

Oh, no, matthew330, we get EXACTLY what you're trying to say. We just don't agree with it in any way.

You've got no interest in actually learning anything in this thread. You created it with a preconceived notion, and you're going to be damned if you let anyone say anything to the contrary. So if you're going to make stupid mistakes in your posts, I'm going to take great pleasure in rubbing your nose in them. And if you think that makes you look like an idiot and an asshole, then all the better.

You've been here since the last crash. You know this place is about evolution. Hell, I'll even grant that it means intelligent design - that actually might describe what TFP is all about. So if you bring up your tired old arguments again and again and don't have any interest in learning anything about anyone else or even accepting different viewpoints, then expect to get challenged. I'll do it as respectfully as I can, but you're making that very difficult with your attitude. Read all 5 (?) of my posts in this thread, and you can track my growing disgust.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

silent_jay

This thread makes me laugh, almost as much as Host's 'Canadians tip like shit thread'. Arrogance is everywhere, it's always amazing when people are shocked to be confronted with it.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Charlatan

I stand by my earlier comment that there is ignorance around the world. Why should we be surprised to encounter it.

I agree with matthew that there is no real reason for an American living in the middle of the US to learn another language. Sure it would be nice if they did, but honestly, why bother?

What troubles me in general about international relations is just how little we all know and/or learn about each other. Most people base their understanding of the Other on some tried and tired stereotypes (the arrogant American, the stinky French, the uptight Briton, the hoser Canadian, etc.).

In the US this can be exacerbated by a rather myopic culture. Not a heck of a lot of foreign films, television programs, etc. reach the masses. Interestingly the reverse is true in other nations but foreign culture is largely American culture.

As an American, it is important to realize that, generally speaking, the most intimate connections that foreigners have with the US is through its cultural exports. And that runs that gamut from Baywatch and Buffy to CNN and Fox News.

Of course not all American are arrogant. But one does have to realize that perceptions are not created in a vacuum.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

matthew330

silent jay I've bothered punk rock and The_Jazz enough. Would you mind taking this offline and teaching me what the TFP is all about. I'm clearly the only one who isn't listening and I should have stopped at Dachau - or maybe idiot, asshole, or douche. Those would have all been good places to stop

My apologies everyone. America, as I said in my title - is arrogant. End of Story.

To clarify - by "offline" I meant outside of this thread. No thems weren't really fighting words. The previous two posters were teaching me about the rules of TFP, and silent jay said he didn't have anything to add, but added anyway, so I asked him if he could....

for crying out loud....you will continue to hear what you want to hear and react. Grow up.

hannukah harry

in a bar, them'd be fighten' words!

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

The_Jazz

Way to become even more of a charicature of yourself, matthew330. Gonna wear your NASCAR shirt at the same time? If you are, don't forget your flag pin.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

thespian86

Okay, I have to respond to this. You're missing the point. You're using our words to further yourself again. My ex-girlfriend use to do that; I'd say something about her needing to solve her problem and I'd be there to help and even though she came to me for that she would say "I'm always the one with the problem, right?".

Here's the thing Matt, this last post is why we're reacting to this badly man. You're not a bad person, well I don't know that, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You are not listening to what we have to say, and your reading what you want, and reacting in the same way to endless amounts of different arguments from several intelligent people. Help yourself man. We aren't attacking.

And the sarcasm that drips from your post is also arrogant. Just try man. That is all I ask. And stop calling me punk rock; it's irritating. Please and thank you.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

matthew330

I can't argue with anything you've said Charlatan. Makes sense to me. But going back to my original point. On an individual level, what's foreign to me is that its okay to insist on a conversation with an American when he's in your country where America is belittled and insulted. That does not happen here, and seems to be the norm outside of this country.. The posts on this board never directly addressed that point, but seem to be saying it's okay and heres why - you have something called "the patriot act".
-----Added 21/7/2008 at 08 : 45 : 10-----
....and the jazz has completely lost it.
-----Added 21/7/2008 at 08 : 50 : 49-----
My ex-girlfriend used to always have the last word. I learned to let her.

Charlatan

I think you will find that most people here have agreed with you that your encounter in Canada was not acceptable. Clearly the guy you met was an asshat.

As for it not happening in US, I would suggest that it does happen but that you are not party to it. I know I have been sitting with Americans in America and had them disparage Canada, the French and the Middle East to people from those respective nations and regions.

The key is that it's easier to spot this sort of behaviour when you are are the recipient.

As for why it's happening to Americans... I think this thread is bubbling with some of the resentment, anger and frustration that has lead many non-Americans to feel the way they do.

While I am not certain about his, I suspect it might have something to do with my point about how most foreigners relate to Americans... through cultural exports. It's easy to objectify an American when they seen through a cultural prism. It can be a bit of shock when you meet one in person and they don't live up to the stereotype... worse yet, they are human and can argue back.

I would suggest, this is the sort of thing that happens in the US when Americans meet muslims and find out that as individuals many are actually quite nice... if you follow me.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

matthew330

"I think you will find that most people here have agreed with you that your encounter in Canada was not acceptable. Clearly the guy you met was an asshat."

In all respect Charlatan, I haven't found that. As for the rest of the post, perhaps your right.

actually - what I heard was I should have been humble and apologetic.

Charlatan

I just reviewed the posts and you are right. The only one to expressly disavow the idiot you met was Leto... though I suspect, given the tone of some of the other posts, that you would find other are in agreement if they were to address this point specifically rather than dealing with the causes...

Though I could be wrong.

And those who suggest you should be humble and apologetic are wrong too. Humble isn't a bad thing but there is no need to apologize for something that is beyond your control. America, like all nations, has good and bad things about it. Given America's size and influence it is sometimes easy to forget the good things.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

matthew330

I missed that post - sorry Leto and thanks.

highthief

Can this thread go in the hall of fame? It's more amusing than most ...

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

silent_jay

You've been here since 2003, if you don't know what TFP is about by now, me explaining it to you isn't going to do a bit of good, you're set in your ways.
Arrogance is everywhere matthew, Americans don't have a corner on the market by any means, I merely find it amusing when people are confronted with it and they're surprised.

Yes, yes I said I had nothing to add, then edited my post, you can ask me to take this 'offline' all you like, doesn't mean I'll comply. You must admit though, you are sort of proving a point you were trying to disprove.

Yes the Canadian you dealt with was an asshat, I've dealt with Americans who were asshats, we're even, as I've said before arrogance is everywhere, not just in America.

Yes highthief, this does belong in the Hall, 2 pages and I've been laughing my ass off since I found this thread, fucking hilarious.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

thespian86

To be fair most of us, including myself, led off by saying "this isn't what you are, but how you are seen" then continued to say "you are proving me wrong". I apologize for being an asshole in return. But my opinion of the US and how it is seen are two totally different things. My first post was pointing out exactly what you are trying to prove but in a different way. I said that how you are seen is a joke, and doesn't do you justice. And how you reacted prompted our sparing.

I think the list of things I left are still true, but I also think, if you had bothered to ask instead of assuming, that Americans are people; not just Americans.

Hey Charlatan, I agree with your last statement. I may be misinterpreting the point but how I really feel about this is pretty simple. There are negative reactions brought upon this situation by both sides; the bad thing is that the two sides are usually America vs. Everyone else. The problem is this, in my opinion:

America put itself in a position of being a Global superpower; there are even arguments made that they are the new Global Empire. In this position you'll find several hypocrisies stemming from a number of the "others", in that they are both relying on this, and upset that you are ruling over them; my country is often guilty of this. But when a country puts themselves in the position it is unreasonable to think that you won't get that backlash. It's something you should expect. And that's where the perception, or misperception, starts I think. America in the position to say "Well... you're welcome" and the people on the outside saying "Nobody asked in the first place". It builds from there.

Again, sorry for being an ass. That doesn't make me feel any different about how you were posting though.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

matthew330

I forgive you.

thespian86

Again, thanks for not responding to what I'm saying. Don't start a fucking discussion if you don't want to discuss. Go to chat if you want to just talk, or even just to speak for the sake of speaking.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

matthew330

You aren't saying anything different. I've said what I needed to say to what you've already said. Long live the empire. Sorry - don't know what this means or how to respond to it:

In this position you'll find several hypocrisies stemming from a number of the "others", in that they are both relying on this, and upset that you are ruling over them; my country is often guilty of this.

or what came before or after it. If you want this thread to go where I'm not sure your trying to make it go, I'll (sort of quietly) bow out
-----Added 21/7/2008 at 09 : 53 : 48-----
....and another one goes over Silent Jays head.

Silent Jay, I didn't really want you to take me "offline".
-----Added 21/7/2008 at 09 : 55 : 49-----
that's messed up Silent Jay - you can't completely erase your thread and rewrite it. Clarify it, but don't erase it.

silent_jay

Arrogant much?

Well you said you wanted me to take you offline and explain the meaning of TFP to you, so now you didn't want me to take you offline? Make up your bloody mind dude.
Sorry, I decided I had more to add than I originally though, and yes, if I choose to erase a post and rewrite it, I can do that if I like, you have no control over that al all, regardless if you think it's messed up or not.

But I'm done with this thread, it's pointless other than for the humour it has supplied us, for that I thank you matthew, have fun in your 'discussion'.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

matthew330

are we still all over 18?

jorgelito

I take great offense that the vast majority of people here think Americans are arrogant. It simply is not true. I think that is very revealing about them. Perhaps others are arrogant for presuming that we are?

It's very simple really. There are some Americans who are arrogant or behave arrogantly AND there are some other nationalities from all nations that are arrogant or behave arrogantly. But to pin this all on Americans and resort to the old tiresome America bashing free for all is just old. Come on now people, we should be better than this.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

silent_jay

Thought you said you learned from an ex-girlfriend to let her have the last word, it would seem that lesson wasn't learned, merely glossed over as you seem to have to have the last word, no matter how little it adds to the discussion.

Last post in this 'discussion'(if you can call it that), matthew arrogance is everywhere, America, Canada, United Kingdom, Mexico, everywhere in this great big world, Americans don't have the market cornered, don't see why you're so surprised when you're confronted with it, but my words will be ignored, or I'll be told 'another one goes over my head(no arrogance there), so this was a waste of energy to even type, maybe someone else will come along to bother with you, but it certainly won't be me. Have a good evening.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Baraka_Guru

This can't be the TFP's only meta-thread, can it?

I don't see Americans as arrogant in person, though I haven't known that many. The ones I've known were decent people who liked being in Canada even though not all of them stayed.

I agree with Charlatan in that Matthew, as a Kansan, doesn't necessarily need to know other languages. Fewer than 1 in 10 Kansans speak a language other than English. However, with air travel, the Internet, and globalization, I would at least expect a certain level of cultural literacy. I suppose the exemptions would be those Kansans who do not partake in or are affected by any of these things. A completely and locally isolated farmer, however Medieval that may seem, would be totally exempt from my expectation.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

canuckguy

this is one is approaching HOF material from this guy. clearly winding everyone up it seems.

i think every country has its fair share of jackknowitalls.

Daniel_

Oh boy. I can hold a simple conversation in French - ask directions, order food, that sort of thing. I certainly can't SPEAK FRENCH. I can puzzle my way through a Spanish menu or timetable, but can't have a talk to anyone about anything. I know a little technical German.

Most British people are hopeless at foreign languages. We need a phrasebook to visit another county, let alone going abroad.

The difference is that most people in my country have looked about and could tell you that the language people speak in Mexico is Spanish, not "Mexican".

You've taken what was a discussion of American being insular and inward looking and turned it into one about Europeans knowing other languages. The point isn't that Europeans speak each other's languages - many don't - the point is that my TV news tells me things about Greece, Belgium, Russia, and so on. Whenever I've been in the states, I watch your news coverage and I come out after each trip having to go on a news binge online to find out what happened in the world while I was gone.

All US news services I have been exposed to feel to me like the local paper from Aberdeen that (apocryphally) reported the loss of the Titanic with "Aberdeen Man Lost At Sea".

Well, the Sea that one crosses to get from the British east coast to Germany, Denmark, Scandinavia is called "The North Sea", and you can't cross it by train.

If I said "You can't call lakes "great" when they're full of ice and pollution" I'd probably be put on a TSA list and banned from entering the US.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Aladdin Sane

Matt330, I understand your point of view. You have presented it with calm and respect, and in return you have received several insults and smarmy comments. Through it all, you have remained a gentleman.

I am proud to have you as a fellow countryman and TFP-er! Bravo!

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Daniel_

Whilst I'm happy to discuss with Matt330, I would not consider poking fun at people's names, and making snide comments about not being able to call something a sea if you can get the train past it as being the hallmark of a gentleman.

Matt330 is not the Messiah, he's a naughty, naughty boy.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Aladdin Sane

I didn't see where Matt poked fun at people's names. Perhaps you can enlighten me?


I see nothing snide in his train-across-the sea-remark... As was pointed out earlier, the Brits are less likely to know a second language than their brethren across the Channel-- which is probably a result of their relative isolation. Of course, I could be wrong.

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

thespian86

There was certainly snide comments from both sides. I was certainly pushed to the point of being pissed off; I'm pretty civil.
-----Added 22/7/2008 at 02 : 42 : 03-----
It's funny because I can't even agree with you without getting a smart ass answer about how I'm wrong or insufficient in some way. I was saying that countries who criticize the US are hypocrites because they rely on your support but also condemn your actions. That could be considered ungrateful.

However I'm so tired of trying to explain my point that I'm giving up; it's just a flame war now where no one is listening. I'd apologize for starting it but I didn't.

I hope that's clearer. Also, my posts are clearly different, with the only similarity being that I "opposed" you. That isn't ground for ignoring it and passing it off as "the same shit over and over". And like I said before you could of gone a long way to listen to some of the opposition but you didn't. That comes off as arrogant, which is where all of the "you are contradicting yourself" comments came from. All of the sparing came after you refused to listen as well. Most people would consider starting a discussion and then refusing to listen to the other points both useless and arrogant. I think that's where most of us are coming from; definitely me.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

willynilly

All I know is that if I lived in Europe I would learn German so I would be ready the next time they came marching through.

We drove from Maryland to Colorado over three days. I am pretty sure I did not cross a border into a foreign land at that time. It would still take about that long to make the rest of the trip to California. Learning a foreign language just simply is not high on our radar.

BTW, we tend to make fun of Kansas as well. It is one boring fucking drive.

dy156

this guy gets it. Much of the deepest roots of American "arrogance" or the perception of it by people in other nations comes from the fact that America is the most powerful nation on the planet, both militarily and economically. No other nation (including China or even Britain, if for some reason it came to it) can challenge us militarily in the air or at sea for decades to come. But CHina has been thinking long-term, and they play by different rules and have more resources - they're catching up. We Americans are almost ashamed of our offensive military power and have had poor leadership. Similar to the British in the 1st half of the 20th century.

the difference between arrogance and obnoxiousness is, to me, whether one can back it up, but the actions to an outsider might be perceived the same. I think Americans are rightly perceived to be expressing our patriotism loudly lately, and that at a deep level, it's out of fear that we can no longer back it up.

thus the drunken ramblings of a former frequent politics board contributor who once nearly got beat up in a London pub for praising Thatcher.

p.s. sorry about Tom Hicks- he's a lousy owner- even of our teams!

Nimetic

Quite simply - it comes from the TV/film that is exported.

My guess is that your more educated or sophisticated programming is not exported to as large an extent.

crewsor

This is hilarious. "Americans are arrogant, they don't speak multiple languages, they don't know Mexicans speak Spanish. Where I come from everyone can speak with everyone regardless of where they come from or what language they speak".

How about Americans are people. People can be arrogant, even people from countries considered "not arrogant". Why people seem to have to categorize people based on nationality, religion, race, or political bent never ceases to amaze me. I have traveled a little, and have never been anywhere where everyone was an angel or an asshat.

I am American and proud of it, but would not lump any other Country into a category based on stereotypes and media depictions. If you disagree with the politics of a country, fine. But why generalize a population.

As to the original post, if I were in a situation where I felt someone was belittling me based on something I had no control over the conversation would be over.

I will never understand people taking a stand based solely on politics, nationality, race or religion. I stopped participating long ago in the politics forum for just that reason. There is way too much, you're just a liberal, you're just a Republican, or you're a Canadian, so that explains your position, and that makes you obviously wrong. It's usually not stated as such, but it's not too difficult to interpret. Then the piling on begins and it's downhill from there. Not enjoyable to me but it must be to others.

Just my 2 cents.

__________________
We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

matthew330

for the record, you'll notice in the post before referred to "speaking Mexican" I mentioned having to speak Spanish in Northern Virginia. Obviously the Spaniards are not flocking to NOVA, it's the Mexicans. When I said "speaking Mexican" it was just typing a little to quickly. I let my little liberal friends have that one - I don't like to kick people when there down, but after the third time it's mentioned, just thought I'd point that out.

Cruzor, ending the conversation was not in my opinion an option. I went from trying to change this guys perspective by being friendly on other matters, to "allright, enough - I'm not walking away from this, and you want this - so here you are".

...and this...

"
I am American and proud of it, but would not lump any other Country into a category based on stereotypes and media depictions. If you disagree with the politics of a country, fine. But why generalize a population."

I agree with, and has become my point. The majority of the posters here have excused this behavior with either meaningless lists of things they find annoying about what they've been told about America, or media depictions (which was a more tolerable excuse, but an excuse nonetheless). Basically that I can expect this next reaction next time I leave. Cant wait to see you all abroad!

I think a poll would be in order.....I've heard of Freedom Fries...but how many Americans here have gone to a restaurant and asked for that? Seriously...who? I'd like some freedom fries, please. For the foreigners out there, I've never heard that phrase anywhere other than the TV. Just saying...

Charlatan

Matthew... the problem isn't that "freedom fries" isn't in actual use. The problem is that the idea that it is in use is out there. Sometimes ideas are more powerful and long lasting than reality. It helps to remember that freedom fries came into play at the same time as, "you are either with us or against us".

As for making excuses for the rude guy you met in the bar... I am troubled by the fact that so few actually took the time to condemn his actions. Perhaps I am being optimistic but I would like to believe that most would agree he was an asshole... that their points about why Americans are seen as arrogant by other nations was more about listing why someone would feel that way rather than being about his specific actions.

In other words, it is one thing to understand why the idiot would come to his conclusions. It is another to support his rudeness.

Again, I might be being too optimistic on this. But I don't think so.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

hannukah harry

I won't condemn the guy he was talking to. Maybe the Matthew was talking to was a dick, maybe he wasn't. But I have a hard time condemning someone's actions when I wasn't there to experience it, don't have video or audio or anything substantial to back up that he was a douche. All we have is a poster who is claiming someone else was being arrogant while his own words and attitudes shown in his initial and further postings show his own arrogance. And my personal, anecodotal, experiences have usually found that the more someone claims persecution, claim someone else was being arrogant or mean, most of the time we're hearing about it from them through their own rose-tinted glasses, which usually doesn't reflect reality accurately. There's nothing in this thread to condemn other than a bogeyman.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

Tully Mars

My problem with the freedom fries issues was two fold:

1. It was stupid
2. My elected officials spent time on changing the name of fries and toast instead of working on actual issues.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Leto

Not to mention the irony of the term french when used in cooking. Doesn't mean they are from France, but that the pototoes are cut into thin strips. Same applies to french style green beans or frenched lamb chops. It's a style of julienning or cutting into thin strips.

Tully Mars

Hence it was STUPID.

And the reaction to many average citizens to this didn't help with the perception that Americans are arrogant. I knew many people who thought this was a great thing.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club