Poppinjay

Charlatan the super moderator has injected common sense into this thread. But I can't help but point out:

That's so cute you think you're your own country! Huzzah to the 51st state! I love your ice. And your Ginger Ale.

I frankly don't understand the matt hate. His politics may lean against yours, but there's no reason to disregard his argument. If I had the same experience in Canada, I'd agree that current policies are teh stupid, but American citizens do not need to be apologetic. Everybody should be humble, but acting like a cur is not in order.

High school kids in this country are doing work that grad students did two decades ago. Artistically and creatively, the world looks at America for cues. We don't just pick up a few Brit shows to run our culture. We don't consist of a bunch of Baptist churches and Three's Company re-runs. We're a melting pot and we damn well do it better than most countries.

And Kansas is just fine. Stop picking on it.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Baraka_Guru

I thought that was a myth now.

Kansas is just an American Saskatchewan, right? But without the uranium.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

thespian86

I can't believe I'm posting here but I'm still a child; what can I say.

The Freedom Fries comment. Okay, enough of this ridiculousness. I keep saying "Re-read my first post and you'll understand what I meant" because, in reality, I didn't accuse you of being arrogant at all. In fact, I made sure to say that you weren't. But you read it and got inflamed about the list, you missed the point completely. I'm tired of saying "re-read etc" so I'm just going to quote myself, and highlight the portions that I wished you would have re-read. Please read them before attempting to spar with me, by using my own words against me.

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EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Ourcrazymodern?

I named my penis "NASCAR".

(Of course, my pediatrician was European.)

matthew330

Fellow with the green bay packers helmet for an avatar, this:

"Your nation tends to put itself at the forefront for everything, and then expects when things go bad, for people to look aside. It's a lack of political accountability, and at least a little, if not a lot of, arrogance that makes this possible. And even though it isn't (or shouldn't be), it's become an international joke. It doesn't make you or the individuals of your country that; not even close. But the way you allow yourselves to be presented is all we see. And because of that, that's why we're here. That's how I feel. "

...though it sounds real smart, means nothing...and purposefully - seriously ZERO. And this is what you wanted me to re-read? Its really a relatively simple thread topic, that YOU freaked over. To say that I got inflamed is ridiculous.

You never once addressed the point of the thread, took it in your own direction, and got pissed that I didn't follow your 51 Why I hate america points, and Daniel's 36 of them.

You and Hanukah Harry now get a head pat from me and an ass-kick out the door. Thats really all you deserve.

hannukah harry

wow. you don't respond to anything i say, ignore what everyone is saying to you, and then feel superior enough, are arrogant enough, to say something like that. wow. just wow.

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shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

jorgelito

Hey c'mon guys. Let's take it easy for a sec. No need to continue the vitriol. Maybe agree to disagree?

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to the one that endures to the end."

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matthew330

That I made up or embellished that story deserved a response? Seriously. You weren't talking to me, you were talking to your TFP audience.

Okay...here's my response. Harry, that's REALLY the way it happened.

Are you happy harry?

hannukah harry

well, if you notice, i was actually responding to charlatan. so it seems kind of rude, imo, for you to make a snarky/assish comment to me when a) the comment wasn't directed to you and b) you didn't feel the need to respond to the content of the post. if you disagree with me, fine. but there's no reason to act like a dick. it makes me think it's even more likely you heard what the canadian guy said the way you wanted to hear it, as him being arrogant, rather than how he necessarily said it.

yeah, i'm happy, i went on a pretty good date last night, still feeling pretty good about that. but you've got nothing to do with that.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

Charlatan

matthew, I get that you are put out by the responses you are getting from various people here. I get that you feel they are not replying in the manner you would like but really, this sort of line doesn't help.

punkmusicfan and harry were trying to explain their positions and why they see things as they do. Clearly they see things differently and are trying to help you understand why they feel as they do.

Instead of retaliating with an ass-kick why not try to clarify your position. If they still don't get where you are coming from, realize its and "agree to disagree" situation and move on to something in the thread.


Just a thought.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Leto

I'm starting to wonder if "Toronto Ass" that met up with Matt in the restaurant was reacting to some prodding...

Daniel_

You're only STARTING to wonder?

He clearly has some heartfelt and strongly conceived beliefs, and defends his case with energy and vigour, if not good grace at all times. He's demonstrated a tendency to make it very clear to his interlocutor that he disagrees most strenuously with their point, and has a zealous love for his homeland.

I think given someone with a similar conviction, but an opposing point of view, a strong difference of opinion was inevitable.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

thespian86

I responded because you implied that American's are not arrogant, in fact they are very accepting. But when others come into contact with Americans or even become one, they feel the need to shit on them. I responded by saying "I think this is why". The fact that you find it meaningless doesn't matter; it makes me kind of annoyed and cheated that I invested in a conversation that ultimately ended in someone who is a decade my senior calling my opinions useless and that all I deserved was to be booted from the conversation. I know I don't agree with you man, I don't really care if you don't agree with me. If you got into a conversation with someone who belittled you, and you felt like coming here and shitting on him through us, you're not really in the right place.

The list I made was semi-serious; mostly because I take what comes "out of america" with a grain of salt. I realize no one actually feels like O'Reilly but that's what people see; insane media, a larger then life president, excessive "patriotism", wars, economic and militaristic superpower, political statements like "if your not for us, your against us", etc. You're country, over the past few years, has become kinda like People; I don't give a fuck about Lindsay Lohan but people seem to love to watch her burn. In reality you're not burning, you're just another country, but that's people. People are always looking to shit on those above them.

The problem in this conversation is that people said things that you disagreed with and then jabbed at them with little pokes. For instance, you never referring to me by name, it's Taylor by the way, and making a joke about it all of the time. Little smart ass comments which made me jab back, and then you continued to accuse me of "starting it". It's childish dude, I just wanted to talk to you about something that has been part of my life since I was old enough to think about it.

You say things that have no real purpose either. You never directly answer what I have to say and when I ask you to you do a shrug take with the same line "What do you want me to say?" or "You're ridiculous so why would I answer". And you act like I should give you respect. You're showing me less then respect, you're insulting my intelligence by telling me it's useless, and that there is no substance to what I say.

Its rude, it's unfriendly, its cocky, and really condescending. My feelings aren't hurt. But don't start threads that you don't want to hear answers to. Like I said before, just go to chat if you want to say something incendiary if you want to have a boxing match.

"Tilted Forum Project - TFP - Sexuality, Philosophy, and Political Discussion"

The only reason I refuse to give up is because I'm young and naive and hope that you'll listen to one of us once. But don't ever tell me that I'm useless ever again. And don't quote that and be a smart ass. Just don't call me useless again.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Charlatan

For someone so, "young", pmf, that was a very mature reply.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

matthew330

Yeah that was an honest post that deserves a thoughtful response which I don't have the time for right now , I got guests on my back porch drinking my beer. I I disagree with alot of it right off the bat, I'll get back to you though.

matthew330

I really don't want to revive this thread and don't intend to post again but I said I'd answer punkmusicfan so here goes:

First off - I really read your name as "punkrockmusicfan21". I wasn't making fun of you, I was being slightly dismissive when I called you punk rock person, but when I finally called you punkrock and you still got pissed, I was slightly confused - so know I know your punkmusic fan. Yeah - I had little jabs in that post, but relative to what I was getting, they paled in comparison.

You have to understand that I'm talking to 7 to 8 people, most of which are ridiculously sensitive to any point being made that contradicts their own. This thread wasn't about "what does everyone hate about America", it was on a more personal than that. If America is seen as arrogant on the world scene, but American individuals themselves aren't (which seemed to be the general consensus here), then why is it acceptable to approach Americans outside of their country as if the individual was responsible? What further surprised me was that this person couldn't defend his own dislike for America when challenged about it. Were they looking for an apology from me - that to me is arrogant.

Anyway, because I'm talking to multiple people, all of whom expect me to respond to each one of their points, and many of whom are calling me (indirectly or otherwise) idiot, asshole, and douche because I haven't caved into what they think is some end-of-story point right off the bat, you really have to separate yourselves from the "pack". Up until that last post - you were just part of it.

The thread was being taken where I didn't think it should go (a meta-thread as someone called it about what's wrong with America). As the responses related to my specific point, it was justifying this guys behavior.

Not only did I not find it necessary to respond to specific reasons why America sucks, your 2nd to last post about America putting itself at the forefront and expecting for people to look aside, was so ridiculously vague and off-topic that there really is no response to that.

Rude, unfriendly, cocky, and condescending are appropriate descriptions of the posts on this thread - but they weren't coming from me for the most part. The tilted left in my opinion has perfected the art of responding to dissenting opinions in this manner and then acting disgusted and offended if anyone responds in kind (even to IMO a much lesser degree). God bless AceVentura, but I'm not him. You look at the shit that guy takes from every angle with almost every post and he just keeps trucking. Sorry - I can't do that, that's why I don't post often, but on a rare occasion I find myself not being able to resist....and regretting it pretty immediately, but fighting it out nonetheless.

thespian86

Thank you. And I agree for the most part. I can see that if you feel like you are on the outside of the majority that TFP would represent this daunting and often tedious task; conversations would be an uphill battle. And I know that mud was thrown here which isn't appropriate but since it came from both sides I'm going to take that out of account. I can see that this might have been a personal post, in fact I even mentioned in my last post that if this was pent up resentment then you should of taken it elsewhere and I still think that's true; not away from TFP but to a blog or journal. You're opinion wasn't so much unwelcome, as it was misunderstood but if what you wanted was to say your piece and bow out then you shouldn't of posted it in Politics because a) people here can get very fervent (which is true for most political convictions) and b) it's for discussion. I see what you're saying but I hope you can see why people responded like they did.

However, the irony of your last post is kind of overwhelming. Talking about TFP majority, about how all of our posts needed to be responded to, that everyone expected answers, etc. That we are, in a sense, all the same. We aren't though, and people only respond when they have something personal to say. Everyone expected answers because you created a discussion, and they responded, and in turn wanted answers of their own; just like you. Our responses had nothing to do with attacking you or the united states, but the simple fact that we disagreed with your original statement. You made it seem as if he were wrong (yes, agreed), but that you're whole country, on the other hand, is open. That implies a couple of things, including another irony in you making a broad positive statement about EVERYONE but being upset by the broad negative statements and calling them exactly that; broad. The others read this, I'm assuming, and disagreed.

The thing is you took it at a personal level (reacting as if we were that dick in the bar, who is a dick btw) when really we were saying "It sucks that you're seen this way, but we FEEL you are and this is why we THINK that's so". And you reacted as if we had said something completely different: "America blows; here's why". My list, which seemed to be very controversial, was mostly stereotypes and jokes, which I stated, was what you're country (thanks to the powers that be) further everyday on the world stage. I followed by saying "but your not" and then quoted you and followed with "You're making them sound right. Don't do that if you don't want to be seen that way". That is me being honest; I do the same thing with anyone I care about. And unlike the sweeping "TFP majority" (which I agreed with when stating that I seperated from because I did get caught up) I care about everyone on here; I'm not part of any other discussion group and this has become kind of a home for me, which makes you my family.

And not to justify the name calling, you should realize that all of that had to do with your response (ie how you worded them) and not with the actual substance that had to do with this topic. I see where you're coming from. But what you posted, where you posted, and how you posted all read discussion, and because it's kind of an "elephant in the room" conversation for most people between American's and those affected by "America" it grew.

I say feel very free to post. Just don't prod, pull, or twist people until they twist back. And don't expect to say something very bold and not expect a response.

Good luck man; and thanks again for the honesty. If I would of gotten that two pages ago then you would of saved a lot of typing.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

silent_jay

Seriously? They weren't coming from you for the most part? You who makes the arrogant post that 'another one goes over silent jay's head', or asking me to take this 'offline' to explain things to you, then quickly in your next post saying you didn't mean 'offline', well which was it, or did you get caught in something you didn't want to partake in?

You're trying to make yourself look like a victim in this thread, and you know what I just don't see it, you can't make little jabs at people and not expect them to respond, but apparently you're arrogant comments were fine and the responses were 'rude, unfriendly, cocky'.

I do see you looking arrogant in this thread quite a bit though, so kudo's to you for proving something you were trying to disprove.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Charlatan

There was arrogance and rudeness on many fronts.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Baraka_Guru

(North) Americans (can be and often) are arrogant...

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

Agreed, it was from all sides in the discussion, but for matthew to try and make it sound like he had little to nothing to do with it was just well, funny.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

LittleDream

sometime somewhere someone

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Propaganda of Feudalism is moral hazard

cybersharp

All you humans are arrogant, why can you not see that you still understand nothing puny mortals?

oh and... wait.. I live in America, I must be ignant XD and yes.. in NORTH AMERICA...

Would it help if I said I love humanity? Here is a perception I would like to project upon the world. I hope and dream of the day that all people (the entire world) will be able to view each other as equals... I doubt that day will come any time soon really..

<insert lots of text as to my conjectured reasons as to why people will not easily overcome superiority complexes>

But really a persons a person no matter how small.

(I could not help it)

o and... GOD BLESS EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO BE BLESSED (well hopefully anyway)

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0PtIcAl

Daniel_

Fixed!

Back to mathew's points - you had me. I could see the validity of much (but not all) of what you were saying in your most recent post.

And then you did something that I find particularly arrogant, and whilst I'm not meaning to apply it as a stereotype, you did something that I can only say I've seen in Americans.

You accused the people who had engaged you in a (mostly) reasonable dissuasion of being "the tilted left". Oh dear.

Why is it that:
1) Some Americans seem to behave as if reasoned argument indicates slavish membership of some dark cabal, and
2) The same Americans assign that cabal to the political left.

Why is free thought seen as endorsement of socialism?

I have no doubt at all that the political spectrum covered by myself, silent jay, Taylor, Baraka Guru, hannuka harry, Leto etc is broad and divergent. In fact I would expect that we would disagree on many fundamental issues.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

thespian86

Dude, you're totally wrong.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Daniel_

Oh go blowit out of your ass!

Bloody Canadians think you're all that. Eh!

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Doug1943

It is perfectly natural to think that one's own tribe, religion, nation ... is the "natural" and "normal" one. If one's particular group is more advanced in one way or another than other groups, this can lead to arrogance, and undoubtedly has, for some Americans.

As the world draws slowly together, though, arrogance becomes a handicap.

I recall sitting in a bar in Leningrad, during the Perestroika period, before the city was renamed, and watching a group of American kids lighting their cigarettes with Russian rouble notes. I thought at the time, how stupid they were, since we (I am an American) need the Russians as allies, and there could be no better way of instilling a deep hatred of America among them, than doing this.

robot_parade

We're not arrogant. We're just better than the rest of you savages.

/troll

ottopilot

Vespucci is rolling in his grave.

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hannukah harry

why's that?

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

ottopilot

Just a play on the word America... explorer Americus Vespucius AKA Amerigo Vespucci - some say "America" (Old Brazil) was named for Americus. So if Americans are arrogant, it could apply to Brazilians or Americus himself. Nerdy attempt to lighten things up.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Ayashe

I will agree that there are failings within American society. I will agree that there are failings in the American education system. I will agree that our health care system needs substantial work to function effectively for all. The United States is far from perfect, though show me a country that is truly "perfect." I do think that some do confuse patriotism for arrogance though. I see failings, and I vote accordingly in hopes that some of these issues can be changed. I do not see the United States as a complete failure, I have lived here all my life and cannot imagine spending the rest of my years in another country. Does that make me arrogant though?