ipollux

I've been working at a newspaper since January of this year, and yesterday, for the first time, politics came up in the office. Well, it just so happens everyone I work with is a staunch Republican that's pro-gun, pro-life and anti gay marriage. They all plan to vote for McCain.

With me being a self-proclaimed socialist that supports Obama, considering him the lesser of two evils, I feel extrememly alienated. When asked my opinion, I merely said I didn't feel comfortable talking about politics as work. Besides, I'm a reporter ...

JumpinJesus

Hey, ipollux, welcome to tfp. You've got the makings of a very interesting thread here. Where would you like it to go?

__________________
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ipollux

I'm curious if anybody else is or has been in a similar situation and how did they handle it. Or, theoretically, if you were in a situation, how would you respond?

Willravel

I've got a big mouth and an even bigger ego. While I'd likely be able to keep my mouth shut for a few months eventually someone would say something I considered to be so wrong that I'd have to speak up. I'd end up in multiple debates going on over weeks which would either end up with "agree to disagree" or more progressives.

Ask yourself this: could you become a pariah or lose your job if you spoke up? Could you damage friendships? If no, then feel free to speak as you wish. If no, then you should decide if it's worth speaking up.

Charlatan

I agree with your original position, to not say anything but I would have trouble keeping quiet about it in the long run. I would suggest that you put your journalistic skills to use and get them to do all the talking. But ask questions that will also get your point across by making them reassess their beliefs.

Make Socrates proud.

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host

willravel and I are in the same situation here, on this forum...welcome.... I can't find an audience for these posts here....,
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=137346


so I just took the subject on the "road":
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/20...825/408/550816

I am concerned that Obama is approved by the PTB....just like the "fair tax", or SS reform.... so consequently I expect very little from him. His rehtoric enabling the FISA coup this week, says it all!

mixedmedia

I worked for three years as the sole democrat, and a fairly radical democrat, in an office full of republicans. I spoke my mind when asked, but no one asked very often. Not once they found out, lol. I didn't feel particularly shut out for that. In fact, I think they kind of thought of me as their pet democrat.

It's not worth getting into heated confrontations at work, though. Best to just be honest when the subject comes up and follow the old adage about religion and politics otherwise.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

host

Great advice !

ipollux.... are these coworkers who you refer to, reporters, too?

Seaver

Um... I'm a conservative living in Chicago. So that would be a yes.

The big question is why you feel alienated. Isn't a good thing to be around people with differing opinions? To be challenged on your views of the world in order to refine or alter your own perceptions?

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

loquitur

I'm a libertarianish sort living in NYC. So I keep my mouth shut most of the time. Pretty much all my friends and colleagues are left-wing Democrats bordering on socialists. My wife is a liberal Democrat. So are my inlaws. So you can imagine how insistent I am on never talking about politics. Golf, yes. Fine food and drink, yes. Books, yes. Music, yes. Politics - never.

Aladdin Sane

I'm conservative with libertarian leanings. Most of my friends are left-leaning. I've worked in academia-related endeavors for 20+ years so I usually find myself in the political minority at work. There was a time when I would argue about politics but I've learned that friendship is more important than being right. I've also learned that minds are seldom if ever changed.
I say concentrate on developing good friendships and avoid political discussions at all costs. Whatever satisfaction you might get from "being right" or "winning" a political argument will only be gained at the cost of ill feelings and damaged relationships. It's not worth it.

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dlish

if you're not comfortable about it, then jus tell them that although you are indeed a socialist that you dont discuss politics at work so as to not sour any relationships.

i think people can respect that.

and welcome to TFP by the way!

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Grasshopper Green

I am in the same boat as you, ipolux. I simply avoid talking politics at work (it doesn't always work) and when asked on rare ocassion, tell the truth. If a coworker doesn't like me because of my political views, that's their problem, not mine.

__________________
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Formerly Medusa

hunnychile

Just so you know well in advance, there are LOTS of vocal republicans here at tfp. It got quite ugly in the last election and I'll bet that it will do the same in the upcoming one.

I'm proud to say that I already am 100% certain that I'll be voting for a change for America by voting for Obama.

Welcome and as suggested prior...it is always easier & wiser to leave the politics & religion discussions at home... I've worked in predominantly republican offices and boy can they get real "snarky!"

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host

How do you come to that conclusion? If you're going to promote your candidate in a post, how 'bout some substance to back such and adament and consequential opion...."change"....what will change?

Disclaimer: I am an "easy" audience for your argument. I'm going to hold my nose and vote for him, too....but, I'm unenthusiastic, voting for him, because he seems to offer so little in the way of "change" in two most important areas.... military spending and right wing Israeli influence on US foreign and military policy, and in addressing and confronting the "break down" in the economic-political system that currently has the US sporting a GINI coeffuent rivaling those of Mexico and China....the most inequitable of any post industrailized nation.... a condition where the bottom 50 percent of Americans control only 2-1/2 percent of privately held wealth...and that number was estimated BEFORE housing valuations began to plummet. The least wealthy have a disproportionate percentage of their total wealth invested in the equity of the home they've mortgaged, compared to the wealthiest Americans.

As far as respect for the constitution and a disinclination to favor the accountability of the elite or corporations, Obama's rationalization of, and vote for FISA and amnesty for telecomms, demonstrates, in addition to the other shortcomings described above, without some further explanation from you, I don't understand what you are talking about....

loquitur

host, if she wants to post on it, there is an obama related thread somewhere already.... I don't think she has said anything that a lot of other people haven't said already, actually.

At the most basic level, though, isn't having a president who can get an articulate intelligible sentence out of his mouth a HUGE change?

ipollux

The people I'm referring to are not reporters such as myself. They all have other job functions at the paper.

Considering I just started in January, I don't think it would be wise for me to rock the boat already with my "radical" politics. I will probably just always say I don't feel comfortable talking about politics at work, especially since I'm a reporter.

loquitur, I agree with your post. And, host, for better or worse, there's no denying that voting for Obama is a 'change' from Bush, yes?

I appreciate everyone's input. Even though some of you are in reverse scenarios--as far as politics are concerned--it's good to know I'm not the only one in such a situation.

Thanks for the welcome, dlish.

mixedmedia

lol, and this is a good example of the kind of discussion you don't want to engage in at work...

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

host

loquitur, I am imploring people to THINK !!!!! Not, to simply convey "feelings". We are in a crisis because people are satisfied that they have clear choices because of clear, material differences between the two major parties and their candidates.... I am saying that they don't....last time out...both major presidential candidates were members of a secret society at Yale university that "taps" fifteen new members each year....

There are more than 150 million eligible voters in this country, and that is what is offered up as "choice", as diversity?

Both major candidates in this election, shamelessly wrap themselves in the flag of Israel, and are committed to increasing defense spending in a country deeply mired in government debt, a country already spending ten times as much on defense and intelligence functions than it's nearest rival, and at least as much as the rest of the world combined, spends, yet it is a country with just 6 percent of the world's population....

WHy do you think that is, loquitiur? Have you read any of my posts with facts about the PTB...because you have not commented....?

ipollux

Unforunately, my days of college when I could make personal attacks and just tell people to shut the fuck are over ...


I kid ... sort of.

host

I suspect that the problem with being unable to reach "most people", to persuade them to reevaluate their beliefs, is because they "know what they know", but they aren't curious enough to delve deeply into how and where they came "to know it"....the authenticity and reliability of the sources and influences that shaped their now, "rooted in concrete", core beliefs.

ipollux, since you are a reporter, I think you might be the perfect TFP member to run this by....for your professional reaction:
The CIA came out with this rather odd piece, and the statement in it:

I withdrew the material I posted. If the curiousity that truly must drive (my concept of) what a news reporter is about, you would have jumped on "the stuff" in my post. Feel free to send me a PM and I'll offer you another crack at answering my question.....

loquitur

host, I know you want people to think. But you also want them, after reading what you write, to think your way, yes? That's why you put in all the effort you do, I presume - your working assumption has to be that, presented with the facts as you understand them, the conclusion is so clear that others perforce must come to similar conclusions. Otherwise, I would assume, you wouldn't be putting in the effort you do. And I can see it really is a lot of effort.

I have commented elsewhere that it's rare someone with strong opinions will have his/her mind changed by posts in a forum like this, though there may be some marginal increase in tolerance of other views, because seeing why people disagree with you on certain points can help a person appreciate and respect other points of view even if s/he doesn't accept them. I still think that's true.

I could, if I chose, set about to try to give factual rebuttals of many of your points, including about the "PTB," but my general read of the situation is that you and I proceed from very different premises in our reasoning. I subscribe to the chaotic life/shit happens theory of existence, and you subscribe to a "stuff doesn't just happen" theory. So we'd end up talking past each other a lot, which is why I didn't comment on your PTB post. Also, you think equality of economic outcomes is an important goal, and I think it's not only futile but dangerous. So again, we'd be talking past each other because our starting points are different. That doesn't mean I don't respect what you do - you give a lot of thought and effort to your posts, and how can I not respect that? And I have learned plenty from reading your posts, too. I just don't much of the time draw the same conclusions you do.

And that's why I didn't comment on your PTB post.

ipollux

By the way, thanks for the heads up. I'm slowly finding that out.

Cynthetiq

I'm going to retort with the same but conversly. I worked at a major media company for 11 years, and was surrounded by vocal democrats. Most of the time when the discussions came around to politics during lunch, I just shut up and kept eating.

Democrats can get just as snarky. I'd rather state, people with boosted opinions can be snarky since it encompasses all parties.

My current employer is also very much democratic bent, and as I do with it all, I don't discuss religion and politics at the office or with officemates.

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loquitur

Cynth, you and I both live in NY. We have no choice - if we want to get along with people we have to avoid talking politics.

I'd probably have much the same problem if I lived in TX or SC, though in the opposite direction.

djtestudo

Wait...you work as a reporter for a newspaper, and of all your co-workers (presumably other reporters) you are the only liberal one?

Wow, that must be the 10% of reporters that don't consider themselves liberal right there

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ipollux

Well, I live in a VERY red state. It's like the twilight zone.

mixedmedia

I lived in Louisiana once, yeah, it sucks.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

host

It does take up a lot of time, loquitur, but it isn't as much about trying to persuade others to come to the conclusions that I come to, as it is about me satisfying myself that I know what the hell I am talking about....that I am satisfied that what I post, makes sense, not only to me, but to that "reasonable person", the one referred to in a court proceeding. I don't know if I accomplish that in every post, but that is what I shoot for.

A quick example of where you and I come to a parting of the ways.... When I post a comparison of the ways of France's politcal/economic system, to those of the US, we disagree on whether their social deomcratic way, is superior to the American way....or not. I noticed that the French have achieved the best government funded medical care distribution in the world, half the US poverty level, by percentage, even with 8.2 percent employment, vs. 5 percent in the US, early retirement, generous pensions, job security, 5 weeks vacation benefit for entry level workers, typical wage rates, at their Walmart clone chain, Carrefour, that are double those in the US, a sustainable energy policy, stable currency, and almost no trade imbalance.... 3 percent max. annual national debt increases....GINI of 28 vs. 45 in the US....vs. the American system....and yet we agree on almost nothing, when it comes to concluding which system "works best" for the average person in each country.

It seems I have to downplay the impact of high taxes and high employment, and the unrest coming from second generation, North African French citizens who are discriminated against, but know no other country than being born and growing up in France.

It seems you have to downplay the impact of unsustainable energy use, unsustainable trade imbalance, unstable currency, a piecemeal government financed medical care "system" that costs the most per capita in the world, leaves 47 million residents in a state of uninsured incertainty, and results in financial bankruptcy of even a significant number suddenly ill, who have private insurance benefits.....no job security, 1/3 the amount of vacation time, at the discretion of employers, half the French minimum wage, late, late, retirement due to tiny government benefit and vanishing private pension plans, and twice the poverty rate, 6 percent annual national debt growth ($700 billion), and unsustainable military spending and war operations growth....and...the problem of possibly as many as 20 million undocumented alien residents and a huge outflow of their earnings to their home countries, crimping their contirbution to local economic activity.....

Yet, you are absolutely adament that the average US person is living in a superior political/economic system than his counterpart in France is living in.

You know this, because if that average American could just work himself into the top twenty percent of American household income, he'd find himself better off than the average Frenchman.... the situation you probably have workeg yourself into....but...that's the top fifth....not the average....and a sudden devastating illness could still bankrupt the American who gets into that top fifth.....so, isn't much of what we disagree about, based more on sentiment, than it is on fact? Wouldn't the average American live a much less stressful life, in France?

Cynthetiq

You take an awful lot of time to put these posts together, yet you don't seem to see that there's nothing that relates them to the OP.

Well, if you're a McCain supporter, then why are we talking about France?

If we're talking about France, well, the underclass there seems to be persona non grata, but you don't take that into account either right? All those French born Muslims that live in those ghettos. No, they aren't McCain supporters either.

So what does France have to do with being a McCain supporter?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ottopilot

This thread seems to have taken more of a "what-to-do" if you represent the political minority in the workplace.

One of the great benefits of becoming an independent contractor is that I'm usually able to avoid the political dynamic in an office setting. If it comes up, at least it's short-term. Fanaticism from either extreme becomes tedious and emotionally taxing when you're a captive audience. The unspoken career benefits can be pluses or pitfalls if you are politically vocal in the workplace.

So I'm in agreement with many here...

Generally, whether I'm part of the political majority or not, I prefer to steer clear of any political (or religious) conversations in the work setting.

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loquitur

Cynth, in all fairness, he was responding to me. He was only using France as an example.

jorgelito

Right here on the TFP. This is an overwhelming uberliberal ultra leftist board that does not tolerate other opinions.

How do we deal? Simple. Right to free speech. Fight back, express yourself. Don't let those that want to suppress your rights shut you down.

Good luck!

host

ipollux, maybe our "results" here, will provide a manifesto you can use to make your workplace as ideologically pure, as we've managed to make this venue.

ipollux

Well... there are a wider variety of views here.

Locobot

What??? A conservative staff in the ultra-liberal media world? Unpossible! /sarcasm That myth has been put to rest on this board a number of times, it's nice to have a corroborating example.

I say speak up! A big part of what is wrong with this country is the inability to have a dialog about actual news events and politics. The No Politics/Religion discussion rule is seldom a useful thing to follow. I've met people at work who came at me advocating a nuclear attack on Iraq who, after many --sometimes heated-- political discussions, were marching in the street with me to protest the war. So opinions do change. There's still that fanatical 30% of Americans who blithely support the current White House occupants and I'm guessing that the vast majority of those people have never been confronted or asked to defend their beliefs. Some people structure their lives (AM radio, Fox news, WSJ, etc.) so they never have to encounter an opinion contradictory to their own.

Invite people over after work to watch Stop-Loss (now on DVD!). Circulate something like http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/60950/, and see who ponies up to discuss it with you. Most reporters I know are allowed blog space on their paper's website without editorial oversight, use it to spark political discussion. Confront ignorance with patience and knowledge.

Anyhow good luck and stop biting your tongue!

ipollux

Well guys, Wednesdays are jeans and t-shirt day. I'm thinking of getting one of those "Barack and Roll" t-shirts and wearing it to work. What do you think? Not subtle enough?

Seaver

That guy sounds really, really dumb. Not that opposing the war makes you dumb... but going from nuke 'em all to hug babies not bombs after only a few conversations does not bode well for his own capability of self-thought.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

ipollux

Agreed.

genuinegirly

I tend to keep my mouth shut but my ears open when it comes to politics. There are plenty of people out there who know more than me. I'm ready to admit that I know little beyond the ideal generalized standpoints behind each party.

Heck, I have paid virtually no attention to politics for the past eight years because I have been too absorbed in my studies to pay the rest of the world any mind. Still, I have an idyllic anti-government lp bent that occasionally creeps into conversation when I'm among safe friends who happen to be of the same mindset.

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