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Originally Posted by loquitur
host, I know you want people to think. But you also want them, after reading what you write, to think your way, yes? That's why you put in all the effort you do, I presume - your working assumption has to be that, presented with the facts as you understand them, the conclusion is so clear that others perforce must come to similar conclusions. Otherwise, I would assume, you wouldn't be putting in the effort you do. And I can see it really is a lot of effort.
I have commented elsewhere that it's rare someone with strong opinions will have his/her mind changed by posts in a forum like this, though there may be some marginal increase in tolerance of other views, because seeing why people disagree with you on certain points can help a person appreciate and respect other points of view even if s/he doesn't accept them. I still think that's true.
I could, if I chose, set about to try to give factual rebuttals of many of your points, including about the "PTB," but my general read of the situation is that you and I proceed from very different premises in our reasoning. I subscribe to the chaotic life/shit happens theory of existence, and you subscribe to a "stuff doesn't just happen" theory. So we'd end up talking past each other a lot, which is why I didn't comment on your PTB post. Also, you think equality of economic outcomes is an important goal, and I think it's not only futile but dangerous. So again, we'd be talking past each other because our starting points are different. That doesn't mean I don't respect what you do - you give a lot of thought and effort to your posts, and how can I not respect that? And I have learned plenty from reading your posts, too. I just don't much of the time draw the same conclusions you do.
And that's why I didn't comment on your PTB post.
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It does take up a lot of time, loquitur, but it isn't as much about trying to persuade others to come to the conclusions that I come to, as it is about me satisfying myself that I know what the hell I am talking about....that I am satisfied that what I post, makes sense, not only to me, but to that "reasonable person", the one referred to in a court proceeding. I don't know if I accomplish that in every post, but that is what I shoot for.
A quick example of where you and I come to a parting of the ways.... When I post a comparison of the ways of France's politcal/economic system, to those of the US, we disagree on whether their social deomcratic way, is superior to the American way....or not. I noticed that the French have achieved the best government funded medical care distribution in the world, half the US poverty level, by percentage, even with 8.2 percent employment, vs. 5 percent in the US, early retirement, generous pensions, job security, 5 weeks vacation benefit for entry level workers, typical wage rates, at their Walmart clone chain, Carrefour, that are double those in the US, a sustainable energy policy, stable currency, and almost no trade imbalance.... 3 percent max. annual national debt increases....GINI of 28 vs. 45 in the US....vs. the American system....and yet we agree on almost nothing, when it comes to concluding which system "works best" for the average person in each country.
It seems I have to downplay the impact of high taxes and high employment, and the unrest coming from second generation, North African French citizens who are discriminated against, but know no other country than being born and growing up in France.
It seems you have to downplay the impact of unsustainable energy use, unsustainable trade imbalance, unstable currency, a piecemeal government financed medical care "system" that costs the most per capita in the world, leaves 47 million residents in a state of uninsured incertainty, and results in financial bankruptcy of even a significant number suddenly ill, who have private insurance benefits.....no job security, 1/3 the amount of vacation time, at the discretion of employers, half the French minimum wage, late, late, retirement due to tiny government benefit and vanishing private pension plans, and twice the poverty rate, 6 percent annual national debt growth ($700 billion), and unsustainable military spending and war operations growth....and...the problem of possibly as many as 20 million undocumented alien residents and a huge outflow of their earnings to their home countries, crimping their contirbution to local economic activity.....
Yet, you are absolutely adament that the average US person is living in a superior political/economic system than his counterpart in France is living in.
You know this, because if that average American could just work himself into the top twenty percent of American household income, he'd find himself better off than the average Frenchman.... the situation you probably have workeg yourself into....but...that's the top fifth....not the average....and a sudden devastating illness could still bankrupt the American who gets into that top fifth.....so, isn't much of what we disagree about, based more on sentiment, than it is on fact? Wouldn't the average American live a much less stressful life, in France?