Abstinence vs. Sex Education - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

The Nightfly · 04-26-2008, 02:02 AM

I saw this article on the BBC news site this morning, and decided to start a thread on it.

I was wondering what your thoughts are on this debate.

Surely it'd be far better to accept that most other people have religious/moral convictions different to yours and probably do not want to abstain, no matter how much you sell the idea to them. Thus teaching all young teens about contraception and STDs will give them the necessary knowledge to look after themselves, whether they choose to act on their urges or not.

Does teaching children about contraception and STDs encourage them to go ahead and have sex, or is teaching abstinence the best policy? What's wrong with teaching both philosophies? Different approaches work for different people.

Cynthetiq · 04-26-2008, 02:10 AM

Quote:

View: Has US abstinence policy failed?
Source: News
posted with the TFP thread generator

Has US abstinence policy failed?
Has US abstinence policy failed?

By Jane O'Brien
BBC News, Washington

US lawmakers are investigating whether to cut government funding for health education programmes that promote sexual abstinence until marriage.

The move follows a report earlier this year from America's leading health agency, the Center for Disease Control, which revealed one in four teenage girls has a sexually transmitted disease.

Opponents of abstinence education say the approach ignores the fact that teenagers are sexually active and fails to give them accurate medical information or advice on safer sex.

"We get sex-ed classes in school and that should be where teens get the right information - but that isn't happening," says 15-year-old Mildred, from Arizona, who volunteers as a peer educator with the pro-choice organisation Planned Parenthood.

"They don't touch on subjects like sexuality, STDs (sexually transmitted diseases), birth control - it's not allowed because of abstinence-only education. It leaves you on a cliff-hanger - and a lot of teenagers become sexually active in their middle school years."

"Teens are curious and they want to experiment and if they know what's out there and they have the correct information, they're going to know how to protect themselves and prevent an unwanted pregnancy and an STD," adds Maryland high school student Melissa.

"Putting up a wall and saying 'don't have sex' makes them more curious and wanting to know what it is. But if you tell them the straight facts they're going to know how to protect themselves. It's about taking care of yourself."

Teen pregnancy

Planned Parenthood estimates that two thirds of teenagers will have experienced sexual intercourse by the time they leave school.

And with some 750,000 teenage pregnancies a year, America has one of the highest teen birth rates in the developed world.

"This national programme which has wasted $1.5bn (£750m) of tax money is a failure and our teens are paying the price," says Cecile Richards, president of Planned Parenthood.

If we can learn to control the most basic of drives - the sex drive - for good, then we can control drugs, gangs, alcohol and abusive anger
Roger Norman
'Wonderful Days' abstinence programme

"We've been wasting money on programmes that don't work and we're seeing the consequences every single day."

State governments receive federal money they must match to fund abstinence programmes.

At least 17 states have opted out of the system and others have suspended funding while Congress investigates whether such programmes work.

Critics say there is no evidence that they delay sexual activity and teenagers who have taken a vow of virginity are less likely to use protection if they break their promise.

Religious right

Roger Norman, a Texas lawyer, describes himself as being part of the religious right.

He runs an organization called Wonderful Days which does not receive government funding but teaches abstinence as part of the health curriculum in some local schools.

"I am convinced that abstinence is the only way for kids," he says. "You begin by teaching the consequences of bad behaviour and the benefits of proper behaviour and you do that in a way that a child can grasp.

"Self control leads to a happy, joyful life. If we can learn to control the most basic of drives - the sex drive - for good, then we can control drugs, gangs, alcohol and abusive anger."

His lessons promote marriage and virginity - for both partners - as an ideal.

A lot of the young people I know who go around have experiences with lots of different people are just preparing themselves for not knowing how to be committed to somebody
Ashley, 18

They emphasise disease as a consequence of sex before marriage.

Some of his former students say that sexual abstinence is sensible and beneficial.

Eighteen-year-old Ashley says she believes teenagers who experiment with sex are laying the foundations for troubled relationships later in life.

"At some point everybody ends up getting married. Everybody wants commitment at some point and nobody likes to be cheated on.

"But a lot of the young people I know who go around have experiences with lots of different people are just preparing themselves for not knowing how to be committed to somebody.

"Once you get into the practice of doing whatever you want, it's hard to change when you're older."

Sixteen-year-old Josh says he relies on friends to help him stay abstinent.

"I have a lot of close friends and we pretty much agree on the same thing so we keep each other in line most of the time. Yes, it's difficult, but my friends are there and I'm there for them, and it gets easier if you have friends who agree with you."

"I'm pretty confident I can keep my abstinence vows," says 15-year-old Kirsten. "It was pretty hard reaching that decision, because living in this world today, it's almost expected of you to 'do it.' But with my religious upbringing and convictions and commonsense, it's really not that hard."

"Secondary virgins"

Teenagers who do have sex before marriage are given another chance by becoming "secondary virgins".

"Of course, if you view virginity as number one, and you've slept with someone, of course it's going to be different and you can never go back - but that doesn't mean there's no tomorrow," explains Ashley.

"Every day is a new decision and abstinence is not one you make once. You're going to have to make this decision over and over again. So if you fail once, you get back up and you try again."

The row over abstinence education is part of a much wider debate in the US about "family values".

Many conservatives are concerned that "American values" are being eroded.

But their opponents believe that the conservatives have an overly influential political voice, particularly within the current Bush administration.

For liberals, the campaign to roll back the abstinence programmes is part of a broader struggle against what they regard as reactionary elements in the US government.

Pro-abstinence campaigners say it is unfair to blame abstinence programmes for America's teenage health crisis.

Valerie Huber, chief executive of the National Abstinence Education Association, says only one in four schools teaches abstinence - the vast majority use comprehensive sex education.

That, she says is the real reason for the rise in STDs and teenage pregnancies.

"We would argue that abstinence education is not an ideological approach. We know that in the area of teen sexual activity, abstinence is the optimal approach.

"Compare this with healthful eating. We know that obesity is rising in America. That doesn't mean though that we minimise the optimal health message."

"We still stress good eating habits, we still stress exercise, knowing that, unfortunately, many Americans are not going to listen."

If Congress does decide to cut government funding for abstinence programmes, they will still continue.

Many enjoy public support and will likely find money elsewhere.

We prefer that you cut and paste in the article into the OP.

I went to parochial schools, read: Catholic.

We didn't learn anything about sex is the myth. We learned about it as "health".

The Nightfly · 04-26-2008, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

We prefer that you cut and paste in the article into the OP.

Ok, will do next time.

Charlatan · 04-26-2008, 02:38 AM

This would be a complete about face for the Bush Administration. They have been a staunch supporter of the abstinence method.

I recall one of their first actions in office was to halt foreign aid to organizations that promoted birth control rather than abstinence (I may be remembering that incorrectly).

Personally, I've never understood abstinence only policy. I can see that it should be a part of the lesson, that it is the only method guaranteed not to get you pregnant or down with an STD... but let's be realistic. Safe sex and birth control are, to my mind, essential.

Ustwo · 04-26-2008, 05:29 AM

The move follows a report earlier this year from America's leading health agency, the Center for Disease Control, which revealed one in four teenage girls has a sexually transmitted disease.

We really need more scientists and doctors in congress, who know how to read a scientific paper, that a study can be grossly flawed, and does not really prove the most sensational possible conclusion touted by the press. Instead we get lawyers.

dc_dux · 04-26-2008, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

We really need more scientists and doctors in congress, who know how to read a scientific paper, that a study can be grossly flawed, and does not really prove the most sensational possible conclusion touted by the press. Instead we get lawyers.

We need more doctors in Congress like the good Senator Tom Coburn, M.D.(R-OK)?

“Pre-marital sex is dangerous, even deadly..."

or

"The gay...agenda is the greatest threat to our freedom we face today. Why do you think we see the rationalization for abortion and multiple sexual partners? Thats a gay agenda"

Doctors dont sensationalize?

He should really leave such sensationalism to his chief of staff, Michael Schwartz:

"...the abortion providers are the main proponents of sex ed because they want more kids having sex, getting pregnant and contracting STD’s, so that they can perform more abortions, treat more VD and make more money"

***
Ustwo...is there any independent study you have seen that concludes that abstinence only education is more effective (or even as`equally effective) than a more comprehensive sex education program...or that justifies the expenditure of more than $1/2 billion by the Bush administration in the last 7 years.

Ustwo · 04-26-2008, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

We need more doctors in Congress like the good Senator Tom Coburn, M.D.(R-OK)?

“Pre-marital sex is dangerous, even deadly..."

or

"The gay...agenda is the greatest threat to our freedom we face today. Why do you think we see the rationalization for abortion and multiple sexual partners? Thats a gay agenda"

Doctors dont sensationalize?

He should really leave such sensationalism to his chief of staff, Michael Schwartz:

"...the abortion providers are the main proponents of sex ed because they want more kids having sex, getting pregnant and contracting STD’s, so that they can perform more abortions, treat more VD and make more money"

***
Ustwo...is there any independent study you have seen that concludes that abstinence only education is more effective (or even as`equally effective) than a more comprehensive sex education program...or that justifies the expenditure of more than $1/2 billion by the Bush administration in the last 7 years.

DC I don't really give a shit about what kind of sex education we give our children, I'm sure it will be the same high caliber as the basic union education they get. Its why I'm sending my kids to private school at great expense when the time comes.

You can find examples of doctors and scientists doing the same stuff as lawyers and I'm sure you can find a lawyer who knows how to decipher what a scientific paper really means, and find any flaws in the methodology, but a good doctor/scientist knows how to interpret data, a good lawyer knows how to manipulate it for his clients/sides gain.

This is what congress is all about. I have a side, how can I manipulate this data to support my side.

allaboutmusic · 04-26-2008, 08:52 AM

We need honest, truthful sex education. This coming from a guy who practices abstinence himself. I believe that even if you think that cars are dangerous, you should still tell people that they should wear a seatbelt if they're going to get in one.

Seaver · 04-26-2008, 09:59 AM

Teaching Abstinence should be listed as hands down the best method, and the only surefire pregnancy/std prevention.

HOWEVER, to not teach safe sex methods in place of Abstinence only is unrealistic. We might as well tell kids to not eat more during growth spurts, it's what their body is telling them to do.

That being said... any kid that doesn't know that using condoms prevents pregnancy/std's is either lying or legally retarded (even that's questionable).

levite · 04-26-2008, 10:38 AM

I don't believe this is merely a case of religious morals. Kids need to know about safe sex, not only for preventing unwanted pregnancies, but because they need to protect themselves from disease. If one has religious beliefs one would like their kids to follow, one can teach them those at home. But it makes no sense to keep valuable information about disease prevention from them. If they have sex and you as a parent don't approve, they can always apologize for letting you down and decide to try harder not to have sex. But if they slip once and end up with hepatitis or HIV or herpes, because you as a parent decided they should be ignorant, nobody is at fault but you the parent....

Ustwo · 04-26-2008, 11:47 PM

Its hard to find anything specific but....

Upon a quick google I found several abstinence based curricula and they all had sections on STDs and the like.

Now its a big country and I'm sure some school some where is doing one where you are suppose to pray to jesus every time you see a woman and think unpure thoughts, but as a whole what exactly is missing?

I'm beginning to wonder how I made it through highschool without an STD or knocking someone up due to my apparently lack of 'education'. I didn't have a class to show me how to put on a condom or even tell me if I should aim for the face or the tits.

And yet I figured it all out.

Since teen pregnancies are still way down from those dark ages when I went to school, (which sort of throws into light the ridiculous of 1 in 4 teenage girls has an STD) I do have to wonder what the difference is.

rlbond86 · 04-27-2008, 01:23 AM

I think the whole abstinance education thing is stupid. A lot of people don't know the right way to put on a condom, or that "pulling out" is practically useless, or that girls on antibiotics can get preggers even with the pill, etc. I think it's important to drill in the fact that abstinence is the only way to be 100%, but I don't think that information means schools are endorsing sex.

Daniel_ · 04-27-2008, 04:00 AM

There's more to condom use than "use a condom" (and I speak as a professional in the field).

Pretty much everyone here who has posted "I never got taught X and I never got Y" is missing the point a little.

TFP is a self selecting group of people over the age of 18, with a desire to participate in a forum that stretches them mentally. We are all in relatively stable accommodation, and most of us have enough disposable income to afford our own PC (or two) and internet connection.

None of us are 14 year olds having a fumble behind the bleachers.

It is an undeniable fact that the US and the UK have really really bad rates of teenage pregnancy compared to other countries of similar wealth.

Every kid KNOWS they should use condoms to prevent a baby, but we still see people here (I'm looking at you Kpax) that ask "was it really a fuck if I only put the tip in".

People in some schools seem to believe that anal sex keeps their virginity intact, prevents pregnancy, and stops STIs spreading - all untrue (OK - the virginity thing is debatable, and as a kid, I'd have given most of my possessions to bang a virgin up the arse).

How many teens realise that a condom will fail if you use the wrong lube.

How many that the wrong size is bad?

How many that you can spread STIs orally and anally?

How many that you can get pregnant from "pre-cum"?

We've researched the myths, and there are some doozies out there that kids believe - doing it in water, standing up, flushing out with coke/vinegar/wine/baking soda/washing powder etc. - that you can't get pregnant unless it's the day you ovulate, that prayer stops babies (this is a true belief in some research).

I was talking to a sexual health nurse recently who had a 15 year old pregnant girl from a good school with a 19 year old BF also in education and neither of them knew why she was pregnant, because they weren't married. Both went to Church schools.

The list goes on.

There is no such thing as knowing too much about where babies come from, there is no such thing as knowing too much about protecting your own health. There is no reason that knowing about safe sex makes you have sex sooner, or more riskily, or with more partners.

Seatbelt and helmet laws do not make kids take up racing driving, sex education does not make kids fuck. Hormones and interest make kids fuck.

If we satisfy their interest in the classroom factually, they may actually chose not to satisfy it in the bedroom carnally.

Slims · 04-27-2008, 05:29 AM

Abstinence is a religious issue, and should be up to parents to teach their kids.

Sex is one of the most important parts of life, and it is astonishing to me that schools would choose to not educate students on the subject. You don't have to say "hey, go have unprotected sex right now" in order to give students enough information about their bodies to make their own, informed decisions about what they want to do with them.

m0rpheus · 04-28-2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_

There is no such thing as knowing too much about where babies come from, there is no such thing as knowing too much about protecting your own health. There is no reason that knowing about safe sex makes you have sex sooner, or more riskily, or with more partners.

Seatbelt and helmet laws do not make kids take up racing driving, sex education does not make kids fuck. Hormones and interest make kids fuck.

If we satisfy their interest in the classroom factually, they may actually chose not to satisfy it in the bedroom carnally.

Agreed. I have no problem whatsoever with schools telling kids that abstinence is the best way to prevent STDs and pregnancy because, well it is. It's when that is all they are taught that bothers me.
I remember sitting in health class when they taught us how to use a condom. Of course, being boys we thought it was fucking hilarious. Did it make me want to have sex with any girl I could right then and there? No of course not, being a teenage boy was what made me want to have sex with any girl I could.
Guess what though? When it came time later on down the road, I knew how to use one.

sprocket · 04-29-2008, 03:25 AM

Ideally parents would teach their kids what they need to know and the school's hands would be washed of this issue. But, most parents seem to suck these days, I cant ever see that happening.

Because of idiots with kids, unfortunately schools have to tackle the problem. To teach abstinence only in unacceptable and dangerous. I cant imagine most kids don't know about condoms and STD's, though. I remember knowing about AIDS, STD's, condoms and pregnancy by the second grade and I couldn't wait till the day I'd be able to use one (condoms that is)

04-26-2008, 02:02 AM	#1 (permalink)
The Nightfly Upright Location: Brighton, UK	Abstinence vs. Sex Education I saw this article on the BBC news site this morning, and decided to start a thread on it. I was wondering what your thoughts are on this debate. Surely it'd be far better to accept that most other people have religious/moral convictions different to yours and probably do not want to abstain, no matter how much you sell the idea to them. Thus teaching all young teens about contraception and STDs will give them the necessary knowledge to look after themselves, whether they choose to act on their urges or not. Does teaching children about contraception and STDs encourage them to go ahead and have sex, or is teaching abstinence the best policy? What's wrong with teaching both philosophies? Different approaches work for different people.

04-26-2008, 02:38 AM	#4 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	This would be a complete about face for the Bush Administration. They have been a staunch supporter of the abstinence method. I recall one of their first actions in office was to halt foreign aid to organizations that promoted birth control rather than abstinence (I may be remembering that incorrectly). Personally, I've never understood abstinence only policy. I can see that it should be a part of the lesson, that it is the only method guaranteed not to get you pregnant or down with an STD... but let's be realistic. Safe sex and birth control are, to my mind, essential. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

04-26-2008, 05:29 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	The move follows a report earlier this year from America's leading health agency, the Center for Disease Control, which revealed one in four teenage girls has a sexually transmitted disease. We really need more scientists and doctors in congress, who know how to read a scientific paper, that a study can be grossly flawed, and does not really prove the most sensational possible conclusion touted by the press. Instead we get lawyers. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

04-26-2008, 09:59 AM	#9 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Teaching Abstinence should be listed as hands down the best method, and the only surefire pregnancy/std prevention. HOWEVER, to not teach safe sex methods in place of Abstinence only is unrealistic. We might as well tell kids to not eat more during growth spurts, it's what their body is telling them to do. That being said... any kid that doesn't know that using condoms prevents pregnancy/std's is either lying or legally retarded (even that's questionable). __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

04-26-2008, 10:38 AM	#10 (permalink)
levite Minion of Joss Location: The Windy City	I don't believe this is merely a case of religious morals. Kids need to know about safe sex, not only for preventing unwanted pregnancies, but because they need to protect themselves from disease. If one has religious beliefs one would like their kids to follow, one can teach them those at home. But it makes no sense to keep valuable information about disease prevention from them. If they have sex and you as a parent don't approve, they can always apologize for letting you down and decide to try harder not to have sex. But if they slip once and end up with hepatitis or HIV or herpes, because you as a parent decided they should be ignorant, nobody is at fault but you the parent.... __________________ Dull sublunary lovers love, Whose soul is sense, cannot admit Absence, because it doth remove That thing which elemented it. (From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

04-26-2008, 08:52 AM	#8 (permalink)
allaboutmusic Aurally Fixated	We need honest, truthful sex education. This coming from a guy who practices abstinence himself. I believe that even if you think that cars are dangerous, you should still tell people that they should wear a seatbelt if they're going to get in one.

04-26-2008, 11:47 PM	#11 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Its hard to find anything specific but.... Upon a quick google I found several abstinence based curricula and they all had sections on STDs and the like. Now its a big country and I'm sure some school some where is doing one where you are suppose to pray to jesus every time you see a woman and think unpure thoughts, but as a whole what exactly is missing? I'm beginning to wonder how I made it through highschool without an STD or knocking someone up due to my apparently lack of 'education'. I didn't have a class to show me how to put on a condom or even tell me if I should aim for the face or the tits. And yet I figured it all out. Since teen pregnancies are still way down from those dark ages when I went to school, (which sort of throws into light the ridiculous of 1 in 4 teenage girls has an STD) I do have to wonder what the difference is. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

04-27-2008, 01:23 AM	#12 (permalink)
rlbond86 Insane	I think the whole abstinance education thing is stupid. A lot of people don't know the right way to put on a condom, or that "pulling out" is practically useless, or that girls on antibiotics can get preggers even with the pill, etc. I think it's important to drill in the fact that abstinence is the only way to be 100%, but I don't think that information means schools are endorsing sex.

04-27-2008, 04:00 AM	#13 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	There's more to condom use than "use a condom" (and I speak as a professional in the field). Pretty much everyone here who has posted "I never got taught X and I never got Y" is missing the point a little. TFP is a self selecting group of people over the age of 18, with a desire to participate in a forum that stretches them mentally. We are all in relatively stable accommodation, and most of us have enough disposable income to afford our own PC (or two) and internet connection. None of us are 14 year olds having a fumble behind the bleachers. It is an undeniable fact that the US and the UK have really really bad rates of teenage pregnancy compared to other countries of similar wealth. Every kid KNOWS they should use condoms to prevent a baby, but we still see people here (I'm looking at you Kpax) that ask "was it really a fuck if I only put the tip in". People in some schools seem to believe that anal sex keeps their virginity intact, prevents pregnancy, and stops STIs spreading - all untrue (OK - the virginity thing is debatable, and as a kid, I'd have given most of my possessions to bang a virgin up the arse). How many teens realise that a condom will fail if you use the wrong lube. How many that the wrong size is bad? How many that you can spread STIs orally and anally? How many that you can get pregnant from "pre-cum"? We've researched the myths, and there are some doozies out there that kids believe - doing it in water, standing up, flushing out with coke/vinegar/wine/baking soda/washing powder etc. - that you can't get pregnant unless it's the day you ovulate, that prayer stops babies (this is a true belief in some research). I was talking to a sexual health nurse recently who had a 15 year old pregnant girl from a good school with a 19 year old BF also in education and neither of them knew why she was pregnant, because they weren't married. Both went to Church schools. The list goes on. There is no such thing as knowing too much about where babies come from, there is no such thing as knowing too much about protecting your own health. There is no reason that knowing about safe sex makes you have sex sooner, or more riskily, or with more partners. Seatbelt and helmet laws do not make kids take up racing driving, sex education does not make kids fuck. Hormones and interest make kids fuck. If we satisfy their interest in the classroom factually, they may actually chose not to satisfy it in the bedroom carnally. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

04-27-2008, 05:29 AM	#14 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Abstinence is a religious issue, and should be up to parents to teach their kids. Sex is one of the most important parts of life, and it is astonishing to me that schools would choose to not educate students on the subject. You don't have to say "hey, go have unprotected sex right now" in order to give students enough information about their bodies to make their own, informed decisions about what they want to do with them. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

04-29-2008, 03:25 AM	#16 (permalink)
sprocket Psycho Location: In transit	Ideally parents would teach their kids what they need to know and the school's hands would be washed of this issue. But, most parents seem to suck these days, I cant ever see that happening. Because of idiots with kids, unfortunately schools have to tackle the problem. To teach abstinence only in unacceptable and dangerous. I cant imagine most kids don't know about condoms and STD's, though. I remember knowing about AIDS, STD's, condoms and pregnancy by the second grade and I couldn't wait till the day I'd be able to use one (condoms that is) __________________ Remember, wherever you go... there you are.