What is "ILLEGAL"?

[pan6467]

When I was young I used to steal baseball card packs and comic books. In fact I probably have 15,000 baseball cards and 75% were from me stealing from the Dairy Mart and Quick Chek C stores. I no longer have the comics, but I figure probably 75% of the ones I had were ones I had stolen.

I knew stealing was wrong, but I didn't care. I wanted them, I knew how to stuff them in pockets and what not and best of all I got them free.

Then one day I was about 12, I went to actually buy a comic book and a pack of baseball cards at Dairy Mart, mom was treating.

I looked at the prices, they were far more than they had been.

Mom said, no the prices had gone up too much.

The sales lady (whom was a regular victim and easy to steal off of) watched my mom and I. She smiled and added, "well prices go up when people steal, because in the end someone has to pay for them."

Did the lady know? Did my mom and the lady set me up? I know I have NEVER stolen anything since. I learned a most valuable lesson that day.

Laws are written to protect the citizens of communities, counties, states, countries. If the government deems something illegal, it believes it does so for the benefit of the people (in a society such as ours... in theory).

In a society like ours, we have a choice, we can either follow the law and never change it..... such as 4 year presidencies, or we can disagree, find government officials who will champion our cause and try to change the laws... we may not find any government official to champion it and have to try to get it on a ballot or petition against it, or have peaceful rallies and demonstrations wanting to change those laws.

If we just choose to IGNORE the law, and we allow others to, we are in effect committing crimes and putting ourselves and our ideas above the laws and above the processes to change the laws.

Now, we can play games and semantics and try to dispel our crimes by saying "well chewing gum in the left hand side of your mouth on a full moon in Nowhere, Maine is illegal and that isn't enforced so obviously we have some stupid laws on the books, or should it be enforced... and if we don't enforce that law then why should we enforce any laws?"

Well, granted that law was probably written when bubble gum first came out in the town of Nowhere and some fool out on a night's walk was chewing gum in the left side of his mouth and went to blow a bubble, accidentally spit out the gum and hit the mayor's wife in the eye. Admittedly, it is a stupid law and over time it may have been forgotten. Perhaps, more important crimes like murder, theft, etc took precedence.

So government looked around and said we have to classify our laws. So they set about and made classifications called misdemeanors and felonies. Then they classified them and put forth the punishments based on severity of the crime as they saw it. You can't put someone in jail for the rest of their life because on a moonlit night they chewed gum on the left side, but if you see it and you know the law you may fine them. Whereas, someone who kills another deserves more than just a fine, they need to be taken out of society for a while.

If the Federal government believes it is easier to control diseases coming into this country, provides a safer environment for it's citizens and is in the nation's best interest as a whole to have a law on how people can immigrate (for example), they pass the law, the set forth the punishment and classification, then it is a law one must follow.

If one doesn't like it, they can petition to put it on ballots and vote to change it, find politicians willing to change it and elect them, or hold demonstrations against it until politicians decide it is in the best interest to change it.... and so on (we live in a country where we CAN change laws, in a legal way). But if we choose to ignore the law and do nothing to change it except say, "it's stupid and shouldn't be a law" then we are criminals as we have committed a crime.

So to follow with the example of oooo say immigration..... if I know Sweden has a law telling me how to emigrate there and I choose to ignore it and go to Sweden and live anyway, because I do not like Sweden's law and I want things MY way. I have broken the law, I am there ILLEGALLY and I should be punished. The first thing I did when I entered Sweden was disrespect their law, so why should they give me a chance to continue to thumb my nose at more of their laws and if they do not punish me then they cannot punish the next person because that would be favoritism. But soon, Sweden could be over run by people thumbing their nose at Sweden's laws and picking and choosing what laws they wish to follow. So to prevent this, Sweden must make sure they enforce the law to the best of their ability and citizenry's desire.

If someone knows there are ways to come to America and not break a law but refuse to and instead just come and live, they are breaking the law of this country and are here ILLEGALLY and thus should be punished. The first thing someone did in the US when they came over not following immigration laws, was break a law and disrespect our country. We should not give them a second chance or allow them to stay when an ILLEGAL act is their very first action here. If you do not like the law, I gave ways you can work to change it.... but until it is changed it is the law, the majority of the country right now wishes to continue it as a law and from polls I have seen, wishes to have it enforced.

Until you change it, ignoring it and simply saying "well I don't like it so fuck it" does not show that you care to change it using legal means. To negatively label and talk down to others who do put a value on that law, does not create a positive environment but a negative environment, divides more and makes the issue bigger and in effect quite possibly worse and beyond repair, than if you had just worked to change it.

Which last I checked in this country we are free to do and laws do get changed faster when people create positive environments for change and not negative ones.

[Willravel]

creeps in slowly, looks back and fourth, and with a quiet voice says...

So we've established that:
1) Except for a few exceptions, laws are in place to protect the innocent and prevent people from behaving badly
2) You can't just come into the US without permission, legally.

Illegal means in violation of the law. That's simple. As a matter of fact, nothing is more simple. You either are obeying the law or you aren't. So yes undocumented guests are illegal aliens. They've broken the law. It's illegal. ILLEGAL, even. I can't remember ever saying anything different, but there you have it.

Do I get to ask why it's illegal, or is that for another thread?

[pan6467]

No Will, you can ask why.

I even gave some whys in the above example, here I'll quote them:

If the Federal government believes it is easier to control diseases coming into this country, provides a safer environment for it's citizens and is in the nation's best interest as a whole to have a law on how people can immigrate (for example), they pass the law, the set forth the punishment and classification, then it is a law one must follow.

See now this wasn't so hard. Now then you tell me why, when one says ILLEGAL immigrants should be deported and believes the laws should be more stringently enforced and the punishments stiffer.

They are labeled and talked to in negative tones.

But the one doing the labeling can sit there and say, "the law is stupid... needs changed and I refuse to show it any respect."

Why not try to converse learn from one another figure out a compromise that is acceptable to both sides and move on?

Why does it have to be a negative, divisive, dig in and don't give anything and take no prisoners exchange of ideas?

All the labeling, the condescending attitudes and the "my view is better than your view" tones do is set further negative exchanges, and nothing gets done except hatred, anger, and other negative energies build.

To say "it ain't personal" or "don't take it personally" when one negatively label someone isn't truly going to work.

At the very least the respect is gone, the desire to hear your side and maybe learn from you is gone and you have divided the differences even further and more militantly. (YOU in this paragraph does not mean YOU personally Will... it just sounds more aesthetically pleasing when used in this paragraph.)

Now, the labelee can take the labeler's negatives, try to turn them into a positive by trying to work on ending the negativity... but if that is responded to with more negativity and further condescension eventually.... even the most positive person will in return become negative. Once that happens there is very little hope of any compromise.

That isn't just the story here but the story of partisan politics the past 20 years. And we see exactly where it has been leading this country.


I also find it very interesting how on one hand we see for a fact 1 million homes foreclosed, 3 million homeowners behind in payments, unemployment raising at record paces, inflation is strangling us, how medical costs are out of control, how the rich are controlling more and more of the wealth and so on.... yet we should open our borders so that people who want to come in can partake in this great prosperity we are enjoying....... shouldn't we work to find ways to get the prosperity back? Get the jobs back? Find ways to distribute the wealth better? Work to find a way to rebuild the medical costs and basically just fix our country, before we bring in others? Or should we just continue to bring people in on a system that s overburdened now only to add more weight and speed up the decline?

[SecretMethod70]

Indeed, illegal immigrants are...well, here illegally. No one disputes the law.

The dispute is over how we should react to that. First off, yes, we can choose to ignore the law. More importantly, unless you're a robot then you understand there is an abstract concept above the law called ethics. Legality and ethicality are two separate things. Many times they go hand in hand, and many times they do not.

Illegal immigrants aren't here illegally just because they can. Trivializing the situation by reducing it to one single adjective - illegal - doesn't magically make the issue a simple one. It also demonstrates some serious ignorance and lack of empathy. Often times, illegal immigrants literally risk their lives to come here, either on foot, or by dealing with some very shady characters (called 'coyotes') in order to get across the border. Women are frequently gang-raped in the process of crossing the border. A large number of these immigrants leave their families behind, including children. It's not uncommon that they don't see them again for many years because of the risks involved with crossing the border frequently.

So it takes a special kind of tunnel-vision to minimize the issue to one sentence: "They're here illegally." It takes a special kind of cold-heartedness not to recognize that it makes no sense to compare illegally immigrating to speeding while driving. People don't put themselves through so much hardship to come here just because they have no respect for our laws. They go through that hardship because they feel that they have no choice. They literally feel as though coming here to work is a matter of survival for them and their family. Waiting a decade to get in legally - if they're lucky - is simply not an option. In a decade, it may be too late.

Beyond the law lies the ethic of human compassion. We cannot simply look at whether or not someone is here illegally, but we must ask why they are here illegally and what we can do to help their situation. Fixing our immigration procedure so that it is shorter and less complicated is one important step in the right direction. We should also greatly increase or entirely remove immigration quotas. Ultimately, if you're really concerned about security, we should completely open our borders. It'd be much easier to find criminals crossing over if they weren't mixed in with a bunch of people who just want to work so their family can eat.

Incidentally, you want to know why you come across as racist to some people? For one thing, we're all capable of comprehending the word 'illegal.' That you feel the need to CAPITALIZE it nearly every time you write it places truly undue stress on the term. This might normally be overlooked, if it weren't for the fact that 'illegal' has become a rather common epithet these days. 'Illegal' is an adjective; it is not a noun. Calling someone an 'illegal' or referring to a group as 'illegals' is denigrating, plain and simple. So, when you feel the need to constantly capitalize the word 'illegal' and use it as a noun to refer to people, frankly it does come across as, at best, ignorant, and at worst, racist. That's not to mention the characterization of illegal immigrants, as if the only reason they risk their lives to come here illegally is to steal our jobs and damage our infrastructure.

[jewels]

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Illegal immigrants aren't here illegally just because they can. Trivializing the situation by reducing it to one single adjective - illegal - doesn't magically make the issue a simple one. It also demonstrates some serious ignorance and lack of empathy. Often times, illegal immigrants literally risk their lives to come here, either on foot, or by dealing with some very shady characters (called 'coyotes') in order to get across the border. .

So it takes a special kind of tunnel-vision to minimize the issue to one sentence: "They're here illegally." It takes a special kind of cold-heartedness not to recognize that it makes no sense to compare illegally immigrating to speeding while driving. People don't put themselves through so much hardship to come here just because they have no respect for our laws. They go through that hardship because they feel that they have no choice. They literally feel as though coming here to work is a matter of survival for them and their family. Waiting a decade to get in legally - if they're lucky - is simply not an option. In a decade, it may be too late.

Beyond the law lies the ethic of human compassion. We cannot simply look at whether or not someone is here illegally, but we must ask why they are here illegally and what we can do to help their situation. Fixing our immigration procedure so that it is shorter and less complicated is one important step in the right direction. We should also greatly increase or entirely remove immigration quotas. Ultimately, if you're really concerned about security, we should completely open our borders. It'd be much easier to find criminals crossing over if they weren't mixed in with a bunch of people who just want to work so their family can eat.

Incidentally, you want to know why you come across as racist to some people? For one thing, we're all capable of comprehending the word 'illegal.' That you feel the need to CAPITALIZE it nearly every time you write it places truly undue stress on the term. This might normally be overlooked, if it weren't for the fact that 'illegal' has become a rather common epithet these days. 'Illegal' is an adjective; it is not a noun. Calling someone an 'illegal' or referring to a group as 'illegals' is denigrating, plain and simple. So, when you feel the need to constantly capitalize the word 'illegal' and use it as a noun to refer to people, frankly it does come across as, at best, ignorant, and at worst, racist. That's not to mention the characterization of illegal immigrants, as if the only reason they risk their lives to come here illegally is to steal our jobs and damage our infrastructure.

Thanks for saying it just right. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Incidentally, you want to know why you come across as racist to some people?

Well, for me, the fact that this is pan's, what, fourth immigration-related thread in as many days tells me he's at least got a bone to pick on the issue.

Pan, it's curious to me that somebody with the tag "lennonite priest" would have such a dogmatic view of the law. John was clear that law is a human construct, and that to the extent it serves to elevate humans, it's worth following, and largely it doesn't serve to elevate humans.

One of the finest things a human being can do is to perform an act of civil disobedience. I don't mean some adolescent anarchic fuck-you-to-the-man, or as you put it, "I don't like the law so fuck it", but a true, thoughtful, respectful, public refusal to follow laws that are wrong, including a willingness to publicly suffer the consequences of that refusal as an aspect of that protest. (See Thoreau's essay on Civil Disobedience.)

I believe our immigration laws are largely wrong. I believe they're written and enforced poorly, and I believe they're designed from a wrong-headed and myopic point of view. Thoreau would tell me that I have a duty and an obligation to do something about that.

Also, I'm not saying the phenomenon of illegal immigration is about civil disobedience or public protest; it's about individual and family economic survival. But I'm surprised to see your "the law is the law" attitude here. I suspect, given the particular gong you've been banging over the last week or so, that if it were about any issue other than immigration, you'd feel somewhat differently.

[SirSeymour]

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Beyond the law lies the ethic of human compassion. We cannot simply look at whether or not someone is here illegally, but we must ask why they are here illegally and what we can do to help their situation. Fixing our immigration procedure so that it is shorter and less complicated is one important step in the right direction. We should also greatly increase or entirely remove immigration quotas. Ultimately, if you're really concerned about security, we should completely open our borders. It'd be much easier to find criminals crossing over if they weren't mixed in with a bunch of people who just want to work so their family can eat.

Make no mistake, I believe we need to seriously overhaul the immigration process in this country but I have an issue when any discussion about some illegal act that starts with asking why someone broke the law, especially when that someone is not even a citizen yet. Part of it is that old first impression thing and part of it is that once we open that door anyone can walk through. It is not a stretch to turn the argument of "they immigrated illegally so their family could eat" into "they broke into a house and stole everything of value so their family could eat". A lot of crime is committed in this country everyday with this very justification (which is an issue of itself, I admit, and most likely for a different thread).

I guess the question here is where do you draw the line because a good lawyer is going to use this argument to expand their defense many different crimes in a very logical way, driving home the empathy.

Granted, we let people off from crimes committed and admitted in this country every day but that is on a case by case basis, after a hopefully careful examination of the facts and often with the vote of a citizen jury. We do not offer up a general excuse for a particular class of crime and then just let all the offenders of it go free.

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Incidentally, you want to know why you come across as racist to some people? For one thing, we're all capable of comprehending the word 'illegal.' That you feel the need to CAPITALIZE it nearly every time you write it places truly undue stress on the term. This might normally be overlooked, if it weren't for the fact that 'illegal' has become a rather common epithet these days. 'Illegal' is an adjective; it is not a noun. Calling someone an 'illegal' or referring to a group as 'illegals' is denigrating, plain and simple. So, when you feel the need to constantly capitalize the word 'illegal' and use it as a noun to refer to people, frankly it does come across as, at best, ignorant, and at worst, racist. That's not to mention the characterization of illegal immigrants, as if the only reason they risk their lives to come here illegally is to steal our jobs and damage our infrastructure.

I can completely see why Pan keeps capitalizing the term "illegal". Maybe everyone is capable of understanding it but using it is self defeating so it has become objectionable. It is much easier to garner sympathy for someone who is "undocumented". That is more palatable and easier to defend. Too many have lost sight of the fact that the law of today has been broken simply because they do not agree with that law. It is what it is and trying to get around it only serves to further polarize the two sides, IMHO.

How harsh of us to call an apple and apple when it really wants to be an orange.

[Tully Mars]

Originally Posted by jewels443

Thanks for saying it just right. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Ditto

[Jinn]

Originally Posted by jewels443

Thanks for saying it just right. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Seconded. I tried to come up with something more to say, but Secret covered it all.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by pan6467

If the Federal government believes it is easier to control diseases coming into this country, provides a safer environment for it's citizens and is in the nation's best interest as a whole to have a law on how people can immigrate (for example), they pass the law, the set forth the punishment and classification, then it is a law one must follow.

I've never seen anyone kicked off a plane for coughing or having a nose bleed. I've never seen anyone turned away at our borders for having the runs.

Perhaps if the federal government wants to stop diseases from entering the country, they should actually take steps to stop diseases from entering the country. It seems like an excuse more than a reason if they're really using that to argue against illegal immigration.

Originally Posted by pan6467

See now this wasn't so hard. Now then you tell me why, when one says ILLEGAL immigrants should be deported and believes the laws should be more stringently enforced and the punishments stiffer.

They are labeled and talked to in negative tones.

Several reasons. First off, people like myself are satisfied that there are not any good reasons to deport simply because one is here illegally. I know first hand exactly how much our country needs them, and I see that they don't commit additional crimes or bring in diseases. Because people like myself have already made these determinations, when you jump in and scream ILLEGAL without making arguments (the "disease" argument is the first I've seen to support your position), it's not unreasonable to associate you with others that share your viewpoint, such as the Minutemen. The Minutemen are, in fact, completely racist and xenophobic, thus you're essentially guilty by association.

I myself don't think you're a racist, but that's probably why others do.

Originally Posted by pan6467

Why not try to converse learn from one another figure out a compromise that is acceptable to both sides and move on?

That's what I'm trying to do, but the next half a page is about negative attitudes or some such nonsense.

Originally Posted by pan6467

I also find it very interesting how on one hand we see for a fact 1 million homes foreclosed, 3 million homeowners behind in payments, unemployment raising at record paces, inflation is strangling us, how medical costs are out of control, how the rich are controlling more and more of the wealth and so on.... yet we should open our borders so that people who want to come in can partake in this great prosperity we are enjoying....... shouldn't we work to find ways to get the prosperity back? Get the jobs back? Find ways to distribute the wealth better? Work to find a way to rebuild the medical costs and basically just fix our country, before we bring in others? Or should we just continue to bring people in on a system that s overburdened now only to add more weight and speed up the decline?

Even with all the things you mention, two facts remain:
1) Our economy will always be better than Mexico's (or most countries from which illegal immigrants come from, which basically means Central and South America, the Caribbean, parts of Asia, Africa, etc.)
2) The illegal immigrants strengthen our economy considerably. Without them, the markets in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, and other places would likely collapse because we wouldn't be able to pay little for much work to citizens. Because they put more work into our economy than they get pay out, they are a boon and ultimately irreplaceable without creating a slave labor force.

Besides, it's not their fault that 1 million homes foreclosed, 3 million homeowners behind in payments, unemployment is raising at record paces, inflation is strangling us, medical costs are out of control, the rich are controlling more and more of the wealth and so on. It's our fault. The blame for the sub prime debacle lies with two parties: the idiots who took the loans and the idiots who gave them. Unemployment has to do with outsourcing (which is actually the opposite of what undocumented guest workers do, so one could argue that they're helping us with that... now if only Guatemala could attack India...). Inflation, medical costs, class separation... all the fault for that lies with the government.

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by willravel

So we've established that:
1) Except for a few exceptions, laws are in place to protect the innocent and prevent people from behaving badly

Laws are NOT in place to protect the innocent. If that were indeed the case, we'd not have any victims. Laws are put in to place to notify people that committing these acts will result in punishment. Laws do not control behavior, they warn of consequences related to such behavior.

The Minutemen are, in fact, completely racist and xenophobic, thus you're essentially guilty by association.

I'm assuming this is nothing more than your opinion? Or do you have some sort of evidentiary documentation to prove this?

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

Laws are NOT in place to protect the innocent. If that were indeed the case, we'd not have any victims. Laws are put in to place to notify people that committing these acts will result in punishment. Laws do not control behavior, they warn of consequences related to such behavior.

The protection is via deterrence. While some legal punishments don't deter, most do. I know I can safely drive at over 120 mph on the highway without actually putting anyone in danger, but I don't because I don't want to pay a hefty ticket. Deterrence. That same deterrence works for people who want to go 120 mph but who don't have the skill and would be putting people in danger.

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

I'm assuming this is nothing more than your opinion? Or do you have some sort of evidentiary documentation to prove this?

They recruit from and are associated with the National Alliance, the most active and largest Neo-Nazi organization in the US, and the Council of Conservative Citizens, which is a Neo-Confederate organization (which denounces homosexuality and condemns racial integration).

[Jinn]

I'm assuming this is nothing more than your opinion? Or do you have some sort of evidentiary documentation to prove this?

Seriously? I'm all for citing sources, but this is like asking for documentation that Fred Phelps is a fundamentalist. Even in the context of natural law, a "reasonable person" could ascertain this from a cursory glance.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by SirSeymour

... I have an issue when any discussion about some illegal act that starts with asking why someone broke the law...

Then you're doomed to a culture organized around lawbreaking and punishment.

For those not part of the industry of law enforcement, the ONLY sensible question to ask about crime--of any sort--is why that person is doing that. What drove them to it, what social and economic and personal forces are behind it? If we intervened in the causes of crime, rather than investing in more and more prison cells, we'd be vastly stronger as a culture.

[Tully Mars]

Originally Posted by willravel

I've never seen anyone kicked off a plane for coughing or having a nose bleed. I've never seen anyone turned away at our borders for having the runs.

Perhaps if the federal government wants to stop diseases from entering the country, they should actually take steps to stop diseases from entering the country. It seems like an excuse more than a reason if they're really using that to argue against illegal immigration.

Several reasons. First off, people like myself are satisfied that there are not any good reasons to deport simply because one is here illegally. I know first hand exactly how much our country needs them, and I see that they don't commit additional crimes or bring in diseases. Because people like myself have already made these determinations, when you jump in and scream ILLEGAL without making arguments (the "disease" argument is the first I've seen to support your position), it's not unreasonable to associate you with others that share your viewpoint, such as the Minutemen. The Minutemen are, in fact, completely racist and xenophobic, thus you're essentially guilty by association.

I myself don't think you're a racist, but that's probably why others do.

That's what I'm trying to do, but the next half a page is about negative attitudes or some such nonsense.

Even with all the things you mention, two facts remain:
1) Our economy will always be better than Mexico's (or most countries from which illegal immigrants come from, which basically means Central and South America, the Caribbean, parts of Asia, Africa, etc.)
2) The illegal immigrants strengthen our economy considerably. Without them, the markets in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, and other places would likely collapse because we wouldn't be able to pay little for much work to citizens. Because they put more work into our economy than they get pay out, they are a boon and ultimately irreplaceable without creating a slave labor force.

Besides, it's not their fault that 1 million homes foreclosed, 3 million homeowners behind in payments, unemployment is raising at record paces, inflation is strangling us, medical costs are out of control, the rich are controlling more and more of the wealth and so on. It's our fault. The blame for the sub prime debacle lies with two parties: the idiots who took the loans and the idiots who gave them. Unemployment has to do with outsourcing (which is actually the opposite of what undocumented guest workers do, so one could argue that they're helping us with that... now if only Guatemala could attack India...). Inflation, medical costs, class separation... all the fault for that lies with the government.

I've been watching Lou Dobbs for several weeks now and I know for a fact most of everything you just said is wrong

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by willravel

The protection is via deterrence. While some legal punishments don't deter, most do. I know I can safely drive at over 120 mph on the highway without actually putting anyone in danger, but I don't because I don't want to pay a hefty ticket. Deterrence. That same deterrence works for people who want to go 120 mph but who don't have the skill and would be putting people in danger.

does it 'deter' everybody? if not, then the law doesn't work for protection, it only works for punishing those who violate it.

Originally Posted by willravel

They recruit from and are associated with the National Alliance, the most active and largest Neo-Nazi organization in the US, and the Council of Conservative Citizens, which is a Neo-Confederate organization (which denounces homosexuality and condemns racial integration).

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Seriously? I'm all for citing sources, but this is like asking for documentation that Fred Phelps is a fundamentalist. Even in the context of natural law, a "reasonable person" could ascertain this from a cursory glance.

i get it, so because YOU say it is so, without sources, everyone else must be UNreasonable. I don't get it.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

does it 'deter' everybody? if not, then the law doesn't work for protection, it only works for punishing those who violate it.

If it deters even one person, then it's protected an innocent and has justified my argument. And it has deterred at least one person, so my argument is justified.

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

i get it, so because YOU say it is so, without sources, everyone else must be UNreasonable. I don't get it.

What sources do you require? I already posted about the National Alliance and the CoCC.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by willravel

I've never seen anyone kicked off a plane for coughing or having a nose bleed. I've never seen anyone turned away at our borders for having the runs.

Perhaps if the federal government wants to stop diseases from entering the country, they should actually take steps to stop diseases from entering the country. It seems like an excuse more than a reason if they're really using that to argue against illegal immigration.

Well, work to change the law. People LEGALLY coming here don't seem to have issues waiting and having the necessary shots, passports, medical records to attain a legal status here.

Several reasons. First off, people like myself are satisfied that there are not any good reasons to deport simply because one is here illegally. I know first hand exactly how much our country needs them, and I see that they don't commit additional crimes or bring in diseases. Because people like myself have already made these determinations, when you jump in and scream ILLEGAL without making arguments (the "disease" argument is the first I've seen to support your position), it's not unreasonable to associate you with others that share your viewpoint, such as the Minutemen. The Minutemen are, in fact, completely racist and xenophobic, thus you're essentially guilty by association.

I myself don't think you're a racist, but that's probably why others do.

First, just because you choose to ignore a law does not make it less of a law. But then instead of defending your position positively, you need to continue to bring in racist undertones and make implications and underhanded accusations to "win" support and your arguments.

One, such as myself, can look at that and decide you have no substantial positive information to share to try to change my point of view. Instead you will just make your implications, guilt by associations and underhanded accusations and hope that fear of being labeled will change my views.

That's what I'm trying to do, but the next half a page is about negative attitudes or some such nonsense.

So instead of showing respect to my views, now they are some such nonsense and thus you have deemed to just label and ignore them.

Even with all the things you mention, two facts remain:
1) Our economy will always be better than Mexico's (or most countries from which illegal immigrants come from, which basically means Central and South America, the Caribbean, parts of Asia, Africa, etc.)

Perhaps, time will tell.

So instead of helping these people to build their own countries, better their own nations and develop themselves, we can just let them come in and live a better life. Why not tell these people to try building a better country where they are? Build pride in themselves as they create wealth in their own countries. No, just simpler and easier to let them come here.

2) The illegal immigrants strengthen our economy considerably. Without them, the markets in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, and other places would likely collapse because we wouldn't be able to pay little for much work to citizens. Because they put more work into our economy than they get pay out, they are a boon and ultimately irreplaceable without creating a slave labor force.

A class just above slave labor..... not going to affect what employees pay LEGAL citizens in this country, not at all.

"We'll just give these ILLEGALS jobs we don't want, pay them shit wages to keep our prices down, and they can live in slums and I'll look and feel good about myself and say, "Look how hard they work and look there's 5 families living together with no true hope of advancement... but I feel damn good about myself because I allowed them to come in here ILLEGALLY."

Besides, it's not their fault that 1 million homes foreclosed, 3 million homeowners behind in payments, unemployment is raising at record paces, inflation is strangling us, medical costs are out of control, the rich are controlling more and more of the wealth and so on. It's our fault. The blame for the sub prime debacle lies with two parties: the idiots who took the loans and the idiots who gave them. Unemployment has to do with outsourcing (which is actually the opposite of what undocumented guest workers do, so one could argue that they're helping us with that... now if only Guatemala could attack India...). Inflation, medical costs, class separation... all the fault for that lies with the government.

Well, first, WE are the government so ALL this is OUR fault.

I see so those who could not buy homes under normal circumstances (which obviously was a lot of hard working families) are "idiots" (your words not mine) for wanting a home and thus taking the only loan available to them an ARM.

Those who saw a way of making money and giving people a chance to maybe own a piece of the American dream so decided to support and give out ARMs are "idiots".

These "idiots" were trying to live decent respectable lives and got caught up in political and economical games.... but they were idiots.

Meanwhile, people who come here ILLEGALLY and you give them a slightly above slave labor classed job and allow them to live in squalor (but it's a better than where they came from squalor), those are great decent people and you have a heart of gold and are the working man's hero......

WOW Will, and people call me a racist. I can live with being a racist because when I look and see what I just saw come from you and your thinking.... yes, my racist thinking is far less hateful and destructive than your thinking... so I'll keep my views and disregard yours as elitist, self serving, egotistical, self righteous, self indulgent bullshit.

No offense. No respect. No desire to change. You keep your negativity and I'll look for answers from others, who actually want to better people and not play some weird games where they will call hard working LEGAL citizens "idiots" for trying to hold onto their dream... while they praise those they can get here ILLEGALLY so those immigrants can work slightly above slave labor.

YOUR words above show me what kind of person you truly are there Will. Good day.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by willravel

If it deters even one person, then it's protected an innocent and has justified my argument. And it has deterred at least one person, so my argument is justified.

Mmmmm I wonder how this type of thinking translates to the death penalty. You can argue effectiveness but I'm sure 'Don't do it you'll get the chair!' has deterred at least one person from becoming a murderer..

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by pan6467

Well, work to change the law. People LEGALLY coming here don't seem to have issues waiting and having the necessary shots, passports, medical records to attain a legal status here.

I've never seen any evidence linking illegal immigrants to spreading disease any more than legal immigrants. So, based on that, it doesn't seem a good reason to have a law about immigration.

Originally Posted by pan6467

First, just because you choose to ignore a law does not make it less of a law. But then instead of defending your position positively, you need to continue to bring in racist undertones and make implications and underhanded accusations to "win" support and your arguments.

I've never called you a racist. I've said quite the opposite. Stop with the strawman.

Originally Posted by pan6467

So instead of showing respect to my views, now they are some such nonsense and thus you have deemed to just label and ignore them.

What views? All I've gotten so far is "ILLEGAL = ILLEGAL" and "they bring diseases". Is that your whole case?

Originally Posted by pan6467

So instead of helping these people to build their own countries, better their own nations and develop themselves, we can just let them come in and live a better life. Why not tell these people to try building a better country where they are? Build pride in themselves as they create wealth in their own countries. No, just simpler and easier to let them come here.

Not simpler, necessary. We need them. Without them, people would likely starve due to the sudden sharp price increase of food. I asked a good friend of mine how much an apple would cost without undocumented pickers. He said it would probably hover somewhere around $8-$12. My produce bill in a month would go from about $120 to about $1400.

Originally Posted by pan6467

Well, first, WE are the government so ALL this is OUR fault.

70% of the US want's our troops out of Iraq and has wanted that for months (years?). We elect people, we're not in charge.

Originally Posted by pan6467

I see so those who could not buy homes under normal circumstances (which obviously was a lot of hard working families) are "idiots" (your words not mine) for wanting a home and thus taking the only loan available to them an ARM.

You can want a home all you want, but if you can't afford one you'd be an idiot to buy one. It's really that simple.

Originally Posted by pan6467

Those who saw a way of making money and giving people a chance to maybe own a piece of the American dream so decided to support and give out ARMs are "idiots".

It had nothing to do with the American dream. It was about making a lot of money now and hoping that the massive problems with the plan would work themselves out later. They didn't.

Originally Posted by pan6467

Meanwhile, people who come here ILLEGALLY and you give them a slightly above slave labor classed job and allow them to live in squalor (but it's a better than where they came from squalor), those are great decent people and you have a heart of gold and are the working man's hero......

I don't see Honduran immigrants that make $12k a year buying $125k homes with a variable interest rate.

Originally Posted by pan6467

WOW Will, and people call me a racist.

Originally Posted by pan6467

No offense. No respect. No desire to change. You keep your negativity and I'll look for answers from others, who actually want to better people and not play some weird games where they will call hard working LEGAL citizens "idiots" for trying to hold onto their dream... while they praise those they can get here ILLEGALLY so those immigrants can work slightly above slave labor.

YOUR words above show me what kind of person you truly are there Will. Good day.

The people who were "victimized" by the sub prime crisis didn't make enough money to afford the house they were buying.

I make about $80k a year and have about the same in the bank. If I went out and bought 3 brand new Porsches, a couple houses, and a solid gold swimming pool wouldn't you think I was an idiot? Or would you admire me for living the American dream? Give me a break.

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Mmmmm I wonder how this type of thinking translates to the death penalty. You can argue effectiveness but I'm sure 'Don't do it you'll get the chair!' has deterred at least one person from becoming a murderer..

Statistically, the death penalty doesn't deter, but that's only one of a hundred reasons that it doesn't work.

[pan6467]

And you show me nothing to support your stance other than "it keeps my grocery bill down." as your sole impetus for allowing laws to be broken. You are happy to have an above slave labor class with no hope of advancement because it is easier on your wallet.

That's all you got Will?

I can live with my ILLEGAL = ILLEGAL stance. I could never live with myself looking at people coming over and getting giddy because I know I'll keep money in my wallet because we can pay those people slightly above slave labor wages.

Negativity begets negativity... and closed mindedness begets closed mindedness.

Do you realize those that do come here LEGALLY tend to make more, become more educated, take pride in and work harder to better their new homeland, than many who were born here?

But the fact that they worked so hard to get here and made the sacrifices they needed to means nothing.... they should have come illegally and just lived in squalor making above slave labor wages so your wallet won't be hurt.

But you see nothing wrong with that thinking.

But I'm the small minded one.

Hey Will..... go read some Ghandi.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by pan6467

And you show me nothing to support your stance other than "it keeps my grocery bill down." as your sole impetus for allowing laws to be broken.

That's just the economic argument. The moral one is a lot stronger, but people on TFP didn't seem to respond to it last time. Then there's the geopolitical argument. Oh, also the children argument. And the criminal argument (illegals actually commit less crimes).

How about we do this: What harm comes from illegal immigration outside of a law about immigration being broken? You named disease already, is there anything else?

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by willravel

That's just the economic argument. The moral one is a lot stronger, but people on TFP didn't seem to respond to it last time. Then there's the geopolitical argument. Oh, also the children argument. And the criminal argument (illegals actually commit less crimes).

How about we do this: What harm comes from illegal immigration outside of a law about immigration being broken? You named disease already, is there anything else?

Sorry Will..... I am no longer interested in your hateful thinking that slightly above slave labor is ok because it keeps your grocery bills down.

I will be more than willing to discuss ILLEGAL immigration with someone who is more open minded, less offensive to my values and will actually give me good positive reasons to rethink my stances.

I said good day.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by pan6467

I will be more than willing to discuss ILLEGAL immigration with someone who is more open minded, less offensive to my values and will actually give me good positive reasons to rethink my stances.

What values? All you've said is that it's wrong because it's illegal. What if it wasn't illegal tomorrow?

Here are a few positive arguments:
Immigrants commit less crimes
Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free...

Immigrants displace workers in certain sectors but the displaced workers benefit through the acquisition of higher-paying jobs in other sectors that expand because of the influx of immigrants. It is not a coincidence that historically people’s standard of living has soared when borders have been open.

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0202h.asp

[powerclown]

Immigrants displace workers in certain sectors but the displaced workers benefit through the acquisition of higher-paying jobs in other sectors that expand because of the influx of immigrants

$45 billion in unpaid federal taxes annually, will.

[pan6467]

So none of these must be arguments I use to support my stance. I must have just said all these to just say them.

Lord knows none of these meet your standards.... which are...... ooooo cheaper produce easier on wallet, let them in.

So instead of helping these people to build their own countries, better their own nations and develop themselves, we can just let them come in and live a better life. Why not tell these people to try building a better country where they are? Build pride in themselves as they create wealth in their own countries. No, just simpler and easier to let them come here.

Do you realize those that do come here LEGALLY tend to make more, become more educated, take pride in and work harder to better their new homeland, than many who were born here?

But the fact that they worked so hard to get here and made the sacrifices they needed to means nothing.... they should have come illegally and just lived in squalor making above slave labor wages so your wallet won't be hurt.

I also find it very interesting how on one hand we see for a fact 1 million homes foreclosed, 3 million homeowners behind in payments, unemployment raising at record paces, inflation is strangling us, how medical costs are out of control, how the rich are controlling more and more of the wealth and so on.... yet we should open our borders so that people who want to come in can partake in this great prosperity we are enjoying....... shouldn't we work to find ways to get the prosperity back? Get the jobs back? Find ways to distribute the wealth better? Work to find a way to rebuild the medical costs and basically just fix our country, before we bring in others? Or should we just continue to bring people in on a system that s overburdened now only to add more weight and speed up the decline?

Good day Will...... choke on the money you save. I'm sure some idiots who bought houses because they truly wanted to believe they had a chance at the American dream MAY shed a tear at your passing. After all, you CARED so much about fairness.

Go sell your snake oil elsewhere hypocrite.

[Willravel]

Powerclown: What? I don't see the connection, can you clarify?

Originally Posted by pan6467

So none of these must be arguments I use to support my stance. I must have just said all these to just say them.

Lord knows none of these meet your standards.... which are...... ooooo cheaper produce easier on wallet, let them in.



Good day Will...... choke on the money you save. I'm sure some idiots who bought houses because they truly wanted to believe they had a chance at the American dream MAY shed a tear at your passing. After all, you CARED so much about fairness.

Go sell your snake oil elsewhere hypocrite.

Read post #24. Those are the main reasons I support open borders, particularly the "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free."

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by powerclown

$45 billion in unpaid federal taxes annually, will.

You forgot to add we had 65,000 job EXPANSIONS in Feb. but it's not the ILLEGALS fault. It's the idiots who tried to work in jobs that they should have known were risky..... or something like that I'm sure. But I'm sure Will can explain it better.

[The_Jazz]

The TFP Politcs Board Sticky

3. Personal attacks- not those directed toward a specific party or affiliation, but a direct personal attack to another member- get an automatic 3 day suspension. The suspension will be noted in the thread where you earned your 3 day suspension, accompanied by the reason for the suspension. Attacks on personal party affiliation, though expected, will be considered in the context of the discussion as case-by-case.

We haven't had to use this in a long time. Let's not start, ok? It would suck for everyone involved.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by willravel

Powerclown: What? I don't see the connection, can you clarify?


Read post #24. Those are the main reasons I support open borders, particularly the "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free."

Sorry Will you already showed me in many posts above that, that you think hard working LEGAL citizens taking ARMS because they had no choice and wanted to truly just try to live a portion of the American dream are "idiots" and that all you see in ILLEGALS coming over are slightly above slave laborers who will keep your produce bill down.

Sorry Will, my mind is made up...... nothing you say will change it.... your negativity is something I don't want to have a discussion with. Your views are extremely offensive to me.

I will however, discuss Immigration = Legal, Illegal and the laws with someone of a more open positive mind.

Last time Good Day Will. Go read Ghandi and buy some new toy with that produce money you saved.

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by willravel

If it deters even one person, then it's protected an innocent and has justified my argument. And it has deterred at least one person, so my argument is justified.

that sounds familiar.

[pan6467]

Ok ...... for anyone truly wanting to discuss immigration.... my views are stated above but the primary reason I believe in my view (enforcement and prosecution of Immigration laws) is this:

I would rather see our government help Mexicans and other countries citizens, build a better infrastructure in their own country so that they may flourish there.

I would rather see us take some of the Iraqi war money, go to Mexico work with them to build schools, better roads, help educate their citizenry so that in years to come they can have pride in their country. They can take pride in what they accomplished. So that ALL the citizens of those countries have a chance to advance.

But instead let them enter, work above slave labor jobs, live in squalor and who cares.

See the problem is and if you look at EVERY past immigration thread where I have commented ..... I was attacked for some of my views negatively, put on a defensive and minds already decided.

Once labeled, attacked and dismissed it makes it very hard to continue to care enough to try to get across one's true thoughts because you've already been beaten down and your words used against you... even though someone just took 1 little sliver, disregarded the rest and ran that sliver up a flag pole to try to destroy anything you may want to say.

I attempted to do it above to you, Will, to demonstrate this. If negativity is all people will argue with and use to try to win.... then the positive ideas get buried and never discussed.

Now am I a Racist/Xenophobic asshole?

Well, I suppose those that labeled me will find reasons to still say yes. I'm also sure not many will understand what any of his the past few days has been about.... because they would rather stay negative minded.

I pretty much saw that talking about Obama.

Ghandi, I believe was one of many great teachers that taught this lesson "IF you come across negative people, do not meet them with negativity, but with understanding and love and demonstrate to them that flaws in their thinking with positive ideas."

But then again what do I know? I'm a racist, xenophobic, simple minded, brained washed idiot who still believes in his country and that our country should be helping others build not destroying others or ourselves with negativity.

I must go but, I'm making the checkmate move here first.

For months I went on rants about how Politics here needed changed. It was negative, run by a small elite group and no one could truly get anything discussed without attacks.

So I thought out some things and I took excruciating time (not really but it sounds good) to come up with a plan to maybe change things.

First, try to show people how if they run into negativity even, offensive crude negativity... they will only reinforce ideas if they meet it with more negativity. Meet it with acceptance and try to positively change views, change may happen, minds maybe opened. (That was Obama)

Then... show people how when one is labeled and slivers of their ideas and views used against them and everything else ignored.... how it keeps minds closed and no changes, just division, hard feelings and more negativity grows.

Some may understand this... and hopefully, they and I will be able to have great exchanges.

Those who don't understand will continue with the negative styles they flourish in.

Think what you want but I think there are some people that are going to be more open or seeing how to be and will try..... and I feel there maybe more positive threads here yet.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

that sounds familiar.

Touche.

Alright, you've got me there. Laws are in place to punish those who behave in a way contrary to the general, objective morals of a given community.

Originally Posted by Pan6467

I attempted to do it above to you, Will, to demonstrate this.

Pan, you said good day. Let's leave it at that for the time being. Deal?

[powerclown]

Originally Posted by willravel

Powerclown: What? I don't see the connection, can you clarify?

Simple concept: When legal (federal tax-paying) folks' jobs are filled by illegal (non federal-taxpaying) immigrants.

Romantic, eh?

[SecretMethod70]

Can we stop with this "illegal immigrants don't pay taxes" BS?

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

http://www.reason.org/commentaries/d...20060501.shtml

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...rint&position=

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060400965.html

http://www.workingimmigrants.com/200...pay_taxes.html

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.or...nessb_illegal/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/19/bu...9illegals.html

[Willravel]

Oh yeah? I've got 12 links about debunking the illegal immigrant tax myth. So there.

[powerclown]

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Can we stop with this "illegal immigrants don't pay taxes" BS?

I guess that would depend on where you looked, or who you asked.

The High Cost of Cheap Labor: Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget

Remittances are Mexico's biggest source of income, says Mexican President Fox

Illegal Immigration Costs California Over Ten Billion Annually

Economic and Social Costs of Illegal Immigration

Remittances reach US$20 Billion

Illegal Immigration Counters

Illegal immigration in The US: How Many are There?

Facts, Figures And Statistics On Illegal Immigration

[SecretMethod70]

Nothing I linked says illegal immigration costs us no money, or that all illegal immigrants pay all their taxes. The point is simply that characterizing illegal immigrants as non-taxpaying is inappropriate. One of your own links was based on the assumption that at least 55% of illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes. That's a majority, and I'm not about to lump illegal immigrants together as people who don't pay taxes when the majority do.

[powerclown]

True enough. Yet I think it is totally relevant to point out that illegal immigrants do in fact put a social and economic burden on this country well in excess of what they would if they were legalized. I'm not saying light them on fire and let's watch them burn, I'm saying get them legalized and into the United States Tax System so death and taxes applies to them as well.

[Tully Mars]

Originally Posted by powerclown

Remittances are Mexico's biggest source of income, says Mexican President Fox

So Fox states:

"Remittances "are our biggest source of foreign income"


And you turn that into:

Mexico's biggest source of income, says Mexican President Fox

You do realize there's a difference between income and foreign income, right?