Guns helping lower crime? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Ustwo · 01-07-2008, 05:15 PM

I post this here instead of politics so the hippies won't have to find something else that doesn't fit their world view to rationalize away.

Quote:

Michigan sees fewer gun deaths — with more permits

January 6, 2008

By DAWSON BELL

FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Six years after new rules made it much easier to get a license to carry concealed weapons, the number of Michiganders legally packing heat has increased more than six-fold.

But dire predictions about increased violence and bloodshed have largely gone unfulfilled, according to law enforcement officials and, to the extent they can be measured, crime statistics.

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The incidence of violent crime in Michigan in the six years since the law went into effect has been, on average, below the rate of the previous six years. The overall incidence of death from firearms, including suicide and accidents, also has declined.

More than 155,000 Michiganders -- about one in every 65 -- are now authorized to carry loaded guns as they go about their everyday affairs, according to Michigan State Police records.

About 25,000 people had CCW permits in Michigan before the law changed in 2001.

"I think the general consensus out there from law enforcement is that things were not as bad as we expected," said Woodhaven Police Chief Michael Martin, cochair of the legislative committee for the Michigan Association of Chiefs of Police. "There are problems with gun violence. But ... I think we can breathe a sigh of relief that what we anticipated didn't happen."

John Lott, a visiting professor at the University of Maryland who has done extensive research on the role of firearms in American society, said the results in Michigan since the law changed don't surprise him.

Academic studies of concealed weapons laws that generally allow citizens to obtain permits have shown different results, Lott said. About two-thirds of the studies suggest the laws reduce crime; the rest show no net effect, he said.

But no peer-reviewed study has ever shown that crime increases when jurisdictions enact changes like those put in place by the Legislature and then-Gov. John Engler in 2000, Lott said.

In Michigan and elsewhere (liberal permitting is the rule in about 40 states), those who seek CCW permits, get training and pay licensing fees tend to be "the kind of people who don't break laws," Lott said.

Nationally, the rate of CCW permits being revoked is very low, he said. State Police reports in Michigan indicate that 2,178 permits have been revoked or suspended since 2001, slightly more than 1% of those issued.

Another State Police report found that 175 Michigan permit holders were convicted of a crime, most of them nonviolent, requiring revocation or suspension of their permits between July 1, 2005, and June 30, 2006.

But even if more armed citizens have not wreaked havoc, some critics of Michigan's law chafe at how it was passed: against stiff opposition in a lame duck legislative session and attached to an appropriation that nullified efforts at repeal by referendum.

Kenneth Levin, a West Bloomfield physician, was one of those critics. In a letter to the Free Press in July 2001, he referred to the "inevitable first victim of road or workplace rage as a result of this law."

Last month, Levin said he suspected "it probably hasn't turned out as bad as I thought. I don't think I was wrong, but my worst fears weren't realized."

But the manner in which the law was enacted was nevertheless "sneaky" and "undemocratic," Levin said.

Other opponents remain convinced that it has contributed to an ongoing epidemic of firearms-related death and destruction.

Shikha Hamilton of Grosse Pointe, president of the Michigan chapter of the anti-gun group Million Moms March, said she believes overall gun violence (including suicide and accidental shootings) is up in Michigan since 2001. Many incidents involving CCW permit holders have not been widely reported, she said.

The most publicized recent case came early in 2007, when a 40-year-old Macomb County woman fired from her vehicle toward the driver of a truck she claimed had cut her off on I-94. Bernadette Headd was convicted of assault and sentenced to two years in prison.

Hamilton said that even if gun violence has ebbed, it remains pervasive, tragic and unnecessary. At the least, a more liberal concealed weapons law means there are more guns in homes and cars and on the street, she said, and more potential for disaster.

Advocates for the law argue that there is nothing equivocal about the experience of the CCW permit holders who have warded off threats and, in a few instances, saved themselves from harm.

In September, a 36-year-old Troy man killed an armed 18-year-old assailant who, with three other suspects, attempted to steal his car outside Detroit Police headquarters.

Michelle Reurink, 40, a consultant in Lansing, got her CCW permit last year, not so much because she felt an imminent threat to her well-being, she said, but because she's a strong believer in the Constitution's Second Amendment -- the right to bear arms.

"The primary reason I got it is because I feel like I have the right to have it," she said.

Still, she doesn't often carry her gun during her daily routine, though she takes it when she and her husband go on their boat, she said.

Having the license and a handgun makes her feel more secure in her home (where no one needs a CCW license to have a gun), she said. She also feels more secure because of the required training, including self-defense lessons, she took as part of the license application.

Mark Cortis of Royal Oak, who conducts concealed weapons license training and sits on the Oakland County gun board, said he believes the benefits of an armed citizenry are evident in small ways almost every day, as permit holders deter trouble and live more confidently.

"The police just can't protect you," Cortis said. "If you have to call 911, it's probably already too late."

I find the bold part the most amusing, but there you have it kids. I love how the gun hater is claiming the crimes by permit holders are not being reported, thats cute.

Allowing law abiding citizens concealed weapons not only do not cause additional crime but also may well lower the crime rate. Who woulda thunk it?

Now for someone with only recreational gun experience, what would you recommend for home protection? I was planning on getting my wife a .223 but thats a target rifle and not all that practical.
Note this article was first seen on fark.

jorgelito · 01-07-2008, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I post this here instead of politics so the hippies won't have to find something else that doesn't fit their world view to rationalize away.

I find the bold part the most amusing, but there you have it kids. I love how the gun hater is claiming the crimes by permit holders are not being reported, thats cute.

Allowing law abiding citizens concealed weapons not only do not cause additional crime but also may well lower the crime rate. Who woulda thunk it?

Now for someone with only recreational gun experience, what would you recommend for home protection? I was planning on getting my wife a .223 but thats a target rifle and not all that practical.
Note this article was first seen on fark.

I'm no expert but I think a shot gun is kind of the defacto standard in home defense.

Plan9 · 01-07-2008, 07:16 PM

This is surprising... why?

Lawful people trained in the basics of marksmanship covertly carrying lawfully registered firearms in order to defend themselves just in case they get mugged.

I think I understand this because I own and carry firearms... You know the best part? They government lets me do it because I passed their qualification tests.
...

WillRavel?

...

UsTwo,

HANDGUN: Any double action 4" barreled .357 Magnum revolver by Smith & Wesson or Taurus would be a fine "load and forget" home defense handgun. Only gun you'll ever need for a whole lot of reasons. You can load it and leave it forever. No springs to weaken, no mags to fumble or lose, no chamber to jam, no slide to get stuck, and hell, you can use the gun as a club when it runs outta rounds. 100% reliable. Both manufacturers' most recent models feature an integral firing mechanism key lock (for if you have children or wanna sleep with it locked for some reason).

S&W 686 .357 Magnum

Taurus Tracker .357 Magnum

Get some HKS speedloaders and train with them. Ammunition should be Federal Hydrashock or Winchester SXTs. These guns are as easy pie to use. .357 Magnum revolvers can also use .38 Special ammunition, which has less power / kick for training purposes or if your wife is squeamish about recoil.

HKS 6-Shot Speedloader

IMPORTANT: Make sure you keep a high-quality 3v flashlight next to the gun and reloads. Train with the use of the flashlight and handgun in your own home in the dark. Surefire is a popular choice.

Surefire Nitrolon 3V flashlight, your most important home defense tool

ALSO: I'd seriously consider getting a 12 gauge shotgun or pistol-caliber carbine instead of a handgun. I've mentioned the reasons numerous times in other threads. Lemme know if you want me to rehash. Gun talk gets me hard.

Winchester 1300 12 gauge slide-action shotgun, 7 shot mag

Bushmaster 9mm AR-15 style semi-automatic carbine, 30 shot mag

blahblah454 · 01-07-2008, 09:54 PM

Its not registered guns that are a problem. How often do you hear of a murder taken place by a person who lawfully purchased and owned a gun? So yea, another useless news article if you ask me

Plan9 · 01-07-2008, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blahblah454

So yea, another useless news article if you ask me

WRONG. It gives me a serious woody.

blahblah454 · 01-07-2008, 09:57 PM

I don't get it crompson... you mean to say a plastic?? oh man, I am hilarious!

Willravel · 01-07-2008, 10:06 PM

Ustwo can you please link your article?

Ustwo · 01-07-2008, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

This is surprising... why?

UsTwo,

HANDGUN: Any double action 4" barreled .357 Magnum revolver by Smith & Wesson or Taurus would be a fine "load and forget" home defense handgun. Only gun you'll ever need for a whole lot of reasons. You can load it and leave it forever. No springs to weaken, no mags to fumble or lose, no chamber to jam, no slide to get stuck, and hell, you can use the gun as a club when it runs outta rounds. 100% reliable. Both manufacturers' most recent models feature an integral firing mechanism key lock (for if you have children or wanna sleep with it locked for some reason).

S&W 686 .357 Magnum

Taurus Tracker .357 Magnum

Get some HKS speedloaders and train with them. Ammunition should be Federal Hydrashock or Winchester SXTs. These guns are as easy pie to use. .357 Magnum revolvers can also use .38 Special ammunition, which has less power / kick for training purposes or if your wife is squeamish about recoil.

HKS 6-Shot Speedloader

IMPORTANT: Make sure you keep a high-quality 3v flashlight next to the gun and reloads. Train with the use of the flashlight and handgun in your own home in the dark. Surefire is a popular choice.

Surefire Nitrolon 3V flashlight, your most important home defense tool

ALSO: I'd seriously consider getting a 12 gauge shotgun or pistol-caliber carbine instead of a handgun. I've mentioned the reasons numerous times in other threads. Lemme know if you want me to rehash. Gun talk gets me hard.

Winchester 1300 12 gauge slide-action shotgun, 7 shot mag

Bushmaster 9mm AR-15 style semi-automatic carbine, 30 shot mag

Thanks Crompsin thats EXACTLY what I was looking for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Ustwo can you please link your article?

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2008801060602

Willravel · 01-07-2008, 10:32 PM

Thank you. I'm sure you'd ask the same thing if I provided an article that was really anti gun with stats to back it up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-h...e_b_77895.html

Ustwo · 01-08-2008, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Thank you. I'm sure you'd ask the same thing if I provided an article that was really anti gun with stats to back it up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-h...e_b_77895.html

You do know what you just linked really has nothing to do with, well anything discussed here right?

Slims · 01-08-2008, 05:54 AM

For your wife:

If she does not have much firearms experience, she should have something simple, easy to operate, and easy to use (I.E. not intimidating, heavy, or lots of recoil).

I would recommend either a good, simple pistol or a pump shotgun with reduced recoil buckshot, depending on her personal preferences and comfort level.

Any firearm that she is comfortable holding and using in an emergency will be infinitely better than the super deadly cannon that she can't handle. Many women have trouble operating most revolvers due to the distance to the trigger and the force required for the double action trigger. Smith and Wesson makes a line of revolvers designed for women, if you want to go that route. There are many good automatic pistols available, just make sure whatever you buy fits her comfortably so she can pull the trigger and work the safety (if present) easily.

If she is not gun/defense oriented, I don't think you will have much luck getting her to practice reloading or effectively using a flashlight. My wife is willing to go shoot, and is comfortable using some of my firearms, but she is not about to practice using a flashlight while shooting, doing rapid reloads, etc. And to expect her to do so in an emergency would be a mistake. If she remembered the flashlight, she would likely not operate the weapon well as she would be screwing around with a light. A weapon-mounted light is an option, but while helpful isn't really necessary.

I leave a nightlight on in our hallway to keep this from being a problem. My wife can see well enough to ID and engage a bad guy, and doesn't have to worry about anything else.

For you: Crompsin's advice is dead on, though I personally don't see much value in a 9mm carbine, you get pistol performance out of a package the size of a real rifle.

Bear Cub · 01-08-2008, 06:04 AM

Don't necessarily discount a .223 or one of its variants as Crompsin posted. Heck, my Bushmaster DCM rifle is what I use, but the AR Carbines are small enough to keep in a drawer, yet they also have an intimidation factor.

In fact, a good friend of mine (and former CMP Highpower teammate) scared a robber out of his home with an empty M1A. He had his handgun with him, but did not want to shoot if he didn't have to. Being behind a closed door, he simply yelled "I'm armed", allowed the bolt on the rifle to snap shut, and the thief panicked and booked as fast as possible. No actual confrontation took place.

dksuddeth · 01-08-2008, 06:09 AM

To add to this,

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...ying-homicide/

Quote:

The number of justifiable homicides in Memphis jumped from 11 in 2006 to 32 in 2007.

No one is sure why, but one man has a theory.

"The thugs have started running into people who can protect themselves," said Tom Givens, owner and instructor at the firearms training school RangeMaster, 2611 S. Mendenhall in Memphis.

Police detectives and prosecutors don't think it's that simple, and they acknowledge the spike could be a one-time occurrence.

"It's hard to put your finger on it," said police Lt. Joseph Scott. "There are more handgun carry permits, there is more education, but you can't say that's the reason."

In other words, the police don't want to admit that 'subjects' can defend themselves adequately.

Quote:

More people are getting carry permits and more people know their rights. As many as 35,000 people in Shelby County have carry permits, which means they have had some training on the laws governing self-defense.

The education, Givens says, is "trickling down" to friends and family members.

There were 19 fewer criminal homicides in 2007 compared to 2006. There were fewer gang killings as well, which are less likely to be viewed as justified, and there were fewer beating deaths, which, again, are rarely justifiable.

But there were more deadly shootings by law enforcement officers last year -- four by Memphis police, including one by an officer assigned to a federal fugitive task force. There was also one by a Shelby County sheriff's deputy and one by a University of Tennessee officer. All were found to be what internal affairs investigators term "good shoots."

Tennessee law gives citizens the right to defend themselves if they have a reasonable and imminent fear of harm from a carjacker, rapist, burglar or other violent assailant. They can also employ deadly force to protect another person.

And while a diminishing number of states require citizens to try to avoid a confrontation before using deadly force, Tennessee does not have such a "retreat law."

When someone claims self-defense, it is the burden of the prosecutors to refute that claim. Tie goes to the shooter.

"The state has to prove it was not justified. ... We have the burden of proof," said Asst. Dist. Atty. Tom Henderson, a member of the review team that determines whether killings are justified.

Even if the shooting is found to be justified, the shooter often suffers trauma. Even if the shooter is a police officer.

Henderson has seen one trend: "The more the public is afraid of crime, the less concerned they are with criminals being shot." But he can't say that has affected the totals for justifiable homicides.

When someone claims self-defense, detectives often have to dig to determine what happened.

They look at the forensic evidence to see if it matches up with the shooter's story. What does the gunshot look like? Is it at the right angle, the right distance? Did anyone see a gun?

Recently, a killing that looked like a case of a citizen defending himself and his girlfriend from a burglar had an odd twist.

Investigators said Antionita Clay, 31, called boyfriend Christopher Jones and told him someone had broken into her home and might still be there.

Jones went to Clay's Camelot Lane apartment and confronted Asa Marmon, 22, who had a stun gun. When Marmon lunged at Jones, Jones shot him.

Clay filed a burglary report and denied knowing Marmon, but investigators quickly learned that Clay and Marmon were involved sexually.

Clay told police she knew Jones had a handgun and she wanted Jones to scare Marmon.

Jones told police he thought he was confronting a burglar or rapist based on what Clay told him. Prosecutors decided Jones was justified in killing Marmon, but they still charged Clay on Dec. 28 with reckless homicide.

MSD · 01-08-2008, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Now for someone with only recreational gun experience, what would you recommend for home protection? I was planning on getting my wife a .223 but thats a target rifle and not all that practical.
Note this article was first seen on fark.

Remington 870, 20" barrel, pistol grip with stock, tactical flashlight to identify and blind potential threats, 00 buckshot through an open choke. Ring sights or a red dot wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

Buy five boxes of 25, shells, you and your wife each take two, go to the range, put the target out to 7 yards for one box, then somewhere around the longest line of sight in your house, and practice. Set the gun down on the rest, one of you calls out "go!" from a safe spot, the other picks up the gun, pumps it if you don't plan to keep one in the chamber, paints the target with the flashlight, then fires at center of mass.

If the range is a small, friendly place and nobody else is there, ask if they can dim the lights, and get multiple targets, at least one each of a person holding a gun and an unarmed person (you'll probably have to get a hostage target, or just one with the person not pointing the gun at you.) Run the target out on the line, the proceed with the drill. It's not an ideal simulation, but it will help familiarize you with distinguishing threats from unarmed intruders. It may be legal to shoot someone who's in your home unarmed, but if you can minimize the chance of shooting if you don't have to, it's better for you in both legal proceedings and from a psychological and ethical standpoint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blahblah454

Its not registered guns that are a problem. How often do you hear of a murder taken place by a person who lawfully purchased and owned a gun?

I'd also like to once again bring up the fact that the only violent crime known to have been committed with a legally owned machine gun was an off-duty police officer murdering a drug dealer with his Mac-10.

Baraka_Guru · 01-08-2008, 08:39 AM

It says fewer gun deaths. Note that between 2001 and 2006, Michigan saw an increase or little (or rebounding) change to the following crimes (measured as an index per 100,000 people): murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, and vehicle theft.

Another interesting statistic, too, is how many of these crimes were committed by those with CCW permits. As the OP article suggests, 1 out of 100 permits are revoked. Some of these were as a result of major crimes being committed.

I'd like see how these "laws reduce crime." What crime, exactly, are they talking about? I'm not saying that the publicity of CCW permits wouldn't reduce crime; I'm just curious to know which crimes were affected the most. I'm thinking property crimes would suffer the greatest impact.

Plan9 · 01-08-2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg700

For you: Crompsin's advice is dead on, though I personally don't see much value in a 9mm carbine, you get pistol performance out of a package the size of a real rifle.

But that's the whole idea. Full-size rate of fire and controllability. Handgun ballistics. This isn't a SWAT kill-kill-kill gun, this is a home defense piece.

That and they don't make many pistol caliber carbines in .45 anymore. The Marlin Camp .45 and the Timberwolf .357 were real beasts but they stopped production.

Timberwolf. Great gun, hard to find.

Winchester's short-short .44 Magnum cowboy carbines are a great choice for home defense, too.

Slims · 01-08-2008, 09:32 AM

Baraka Guru: Even if they don't reduce crime, they do allow individual citizens to take responsibility for their own safety. Even if crime as a whole remains constant, the CCW law gives those who want to excercise it, the ability to increase their level of personal security and decrease their individual chances of becoming a victim.

As a fan of personal responsibility, I don't see the downside to this.

What I failed to convey in my previous post about firearms choices was that for someone who is not going to spend a great deal of time getting familiar with their weapon, absolute simplicity is paramount, IMHO.

flstf · 01-08-2008, 10:37 AM

For home defense probably a shotgun is the best choice. If you want a handgun then any of the 9mm semi-autos like Glock or Beretta would be a good choice, plus light and easy to carry if you decide to later.

With a pump action shotgun just chambering a round is enough to scare most intruders. I bought my wife a Benelli M3 Super 90. It can be selected for pump action or semi-auto.

Type: selective pump-action or semi-auto recoil inertia operated
Gauge: 12
Length: 1040-1200mm
Barrel length: 500-660 mm.
Weight 3.2-3.5 kg
Capacity: 8 rounds in underbarrel tube magazine

The Benelli M3 is an updated version of the Benelli M1 shotgun. M3 uses same inertia recoil semi-automatic system as earlier Benelli M1, but with addition of the another Benelli patented feature, which allows to the shooter to lock the semi-automatic action and switch to the manually operated pump-action mode and back in the matter of seconds. The action type switch is located at the forward end of the forearm, and is formed as an annular knurled ring. Rotation of this ring either engages the action rods of the pump system and locks the semi-automatic recoil system, or disengages the action bars, locks the forearm and allows the inertia recoil system to operate the action automatically. This greatly improves the versatility of the shotgun, allowing it to fire low-powered ammunition (mostly of special purpose, such as less-lethal rubber or tear-gas projectiles) in the manually operated pump action mode, and to fire full power combat loads with slugs or buckshot in rapid semi-automatic mode. Underbarrel tubular magazine usually holds 8 rounds for police or military versions, or less in some civilian models.

M3 Super 90 is available with various barrel lengths and stock options, with fixed butt and semi-pistol or pistol grips, or with top-folding butts and pistol grips. Sight options include shotgun-type open sights, rifle type open sights, ghost ring (diopter) sights and various mounts for red dot or low magnification telescope sights and tactical flashlights and laser pointers.

samcol · 01-08-2008, 12:19 PM

I think Crompsin nailed it with a .357 revolver or a pump/auto shotgun. I personally wouldn't recommend an automatic pistol or semi auto rifle for home defense unless using firearms is a hobby of yours. Although anything is better than nothing.

KISS principle imo for home defense.

QuasiMondo · 01-08-2008, 12:20 PM

That's a lot of barrel to be swinging around, methinks.

Willravel · 01-08-2008, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

You do know what you just linked really has nothing to do with, well anything discussed here right?

How can guns lower crime when gun control is broken?

dksuddeth · 01-08-2008, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

Type: selective pump-action or semi-auto recoil inertia operated
Gauge: 12
Length: 1040-1200mm
Barrel length: 500-660 mm.
Weight 3.2-3.5 kg
Capacity: 8 rounds in underbarrel tube magazine

The Benelli M3 is an updated version of the Benelli M1 shotgun. M3 uses same inertia recoil semi-automatic system as earlier Benelli M1, but with addition of the another Benelli patented feature, which allows to the shooter to lock the semi-automatic action and switch to the manually operated pump-action mode and back in the matter of seconds. The action type switch is located at the forward end of the forearm, and is formed as an annular knurled ring. Rotation of this ring either engages the action rods of the pump system and locks the semi-automatic recoil system, or disengages the action bars, locks the forearm and allows the inertia recoil system to operate the action automatically. This greatly improves the versatility of the shotgun, allowing it to fire low-powered ammunition (mostly of special purpose, such as less-lethal rubber or tear-gas projectiles) in the manually operated pump action mode, and to fire full power combat loads with slugs or buckshot in rapid semi-automatic mode. Underbarrel tubular magazine usually holds 8 rounds for police or military versions, or less in some civilian models.

M3 Super 90 is available with various barrel lengths and stock options, with fixed butt and semi-pistol or pistol grips, or with top-folding butts and pistol grips. Sight options include shotgun-type open sights, rifle type open sights, ghost ring (diopter) sights and various mounts for red dot or low magnification telescope sights and tactical flashlights and laser pointers.

whoa, how much is that?

1010011010 · 01-08-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

How can guns lower crime when gun control is broken?

Well.. in one third of the studies, removing "broken" gun control had no effect on crime... so it's not always the case that law-abiding citizens looking out for their own security lowers crime.

flstf · 01-08-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

whoa, how much is that?

About $1000 last time I checked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuasiMondo

That's a lot of barrel to be swinging around, methinks.

Well I guess if the barrel is too long it could always be shortened (sawed off) like Randy Weaver of Ruby Ridge fame did but we all know what happened to him.

Ustwo · 01-08-2008, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

How can guns lower crime when gun control is broken?

At the very least it shows that allowing concealed carry permits does not INCREASE crime and why limit liberty if it has no positive effect and may well have a negative one?

Willravel · 01-08-2008, 02:45 PM

I'll try to make this more clear:
Under ENFORCED and UNBROKEN gun control, the statistics from the OP are likely to change significantly. Recognizing that existing gun control isn't enforced and procedures set up are not followed, it's unfair to scrap the entire idea. Is this more clear?

Ustwo · 01-08-2008, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I'll try to make this more clear:
Under ENFORCED and UNBROKEN gun control, the statistics from the OP are likely to change significantly. Recognizing that existing gun control isn't enforced and procedures set up are not followed, it's unfair to scrap the entire idea. Is this more clear?

You mean how strong gun control has made the UK safer?

Come on now will drop the liberal hat, you are wrong on this one.

MSD · 01-08-2008, 09:52 PM

Please, stop recommending pistols for home defense. Most pistol rounds, even popular hollow points, will penetrate further through common building materials than .223 or 00 buckshot. There's nowhere to mount a proper sight or flashlight (critical for a nighttime defense gun) and only massive revolvers that are unwieldy, heavy, and vastly overpowered for use on human targets approach even half the sight radius of the shortest Title I shotgun (I don't think I have to specify that Title II guns are almost always a bad idea for home defense.)

Willravel · 01-08-2008, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

You mean how strong gun control has made the UK safer?

Come on now will drop the liberal hat, you are wrong on this one.

UK crime rates are insignificant compared to the US. Do your homework before chastising people.

MSD · 01-08-2008, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

UK crime rates are insignificant compared to the US. Do your homework before chastising people.

Remove gang violence from US crime statistics and see where we end up. I haven't done the math in a few years, but it brings us pretty close to the rest of the world. I see that as evidence that our socioeconomic and education systems are broken rather than our gun control laws.

Plan9 · 01-08-2008, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

Please, stop recommending pistols for home defense. Most pistol rounds, even popular hollow points, will penetrate further through common building materials than .223 or 00 buckshot. There's nowhere to mount a proper sight or flashlight (critical for a nighttime defense gun) and only massive revolvers that are unwieldy, heavy, and vastly overpowered for use on human targets approach even half the sight radius of the shortest Title I shotgun (I don't think I have to specify that Title II guns are almost always a bad idea for home defense.)

(unzips his fly for an epic pissing match with a fellow gun nut)

Check this out: http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm

Ustwo · 01-08-2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

UK crime rates are insignificant compared to the US. Do your homework before chastising people.

Oh really?

Do yours.

London has more violent crime than New York.

The US murder rates are higher, take out gang violence and we are the same as the rest of Europe, and as a white male I have less chance of being murdered than many of my European counterparts.

Time to shatter another liberal illusion.

Willravel · 01-08-2008, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

London has more violent crime than New York.

You're comparing the safest large city in the US to the most violent large city in the UK. Apples to oranges to the Nth degree. Compare London to LA and then we'll talk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The US murder rates are higher

It takes a big man to admit he's wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

take out gang violence and we are the same as the rest of Europe

So? Take out soccer violence and Spain is crime free but that has nothing to do with anything. The US has gangs, therefore they're a part of the stats. You can't just edit them out because you don't have Crypts outside your office.

Plan9 · 01-08-2008, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

Stuff 'n things.

Real quick before bed:

"Please, stop recommending pistols for home defense."

I don't. At all. I recommend a shoulder-fired weapon for home defense. If people are set on a handgun, that's their choice. I recommend safe weapons... period.

"There's nowhere to mount a proper sight or flashlight (critical for a nighttime defense gun)."

Golly gosh! How did we ever defend our homes before that trendy Picatinny rail or tritium sights!? I have both items on most of my firearms, but ya know what? Proper training whups technology every time. 'Nam proved that much.

"Most pistol rounds, even popular hollow points, will penetrate further through common building materials than .223 or 00 buckshot."

Which would explain why 9mm and .45 handguns are so popular with military, L.E., and civilians everywhere. Which one of these is going to hit a man at 300 yards and which one is going to be stopped by a concrete block? .223 or 9mm? Penetration my ass. .223 is lighter, goes faster, and has more range. It is a rifle round. Home defense with a .223 is silly for numerous reasons. Why not home defense with an AK47? C'mon, man.

Buckshot, on the other hand, doesn't have any of the issues of a rifle round. No uniform rifled twist to direct energy, it has a random "musket ball" spin. It is part of a large group of soft, round projectiles. Buckshot is a superior home defense choice because the of the "big slap" wound capability, short range of the weapon and lack of power behind any individual projectile.

"And only massive revolvers that are unwieldy, heavy, and vastly overpowered for use on human targets."

A S&W .357 Magnum is hardly considered heavy or unwieldy. .357 Magnum has a long history of being one of the best man-stoppers out there (86% "one shot drops" according to FBI stats). Hardly too powerful by any stretch of the imagination. Modern ammunition is of a low flash powder variety and modern hollow point or frangible bullets are very effective at not bouncing around.

"...approach even half the sight radius of the shortest Title I shotgun."

Yeah, because sight radius is so important at across-the-room distances.

...

Okay, bed time.

jorgelito · 01-08-2008, 11:09 PM

Shotgun it is then...

Plan9 · 01-08-2008, 11:16 PM

Yeah... as everybody on this thread has said:

Get a 12 gauge shotgun with the buckshot size of your preference.

Most importantly, though... get a flashlight and train with your tools.

As GI Joe told you many years ago: "Education is your best defense."

Willravel · 01-08-2008, 11:22 PM

And knowing is half the battle... GI JOE.

Slims · 01-08-2008, 11:42 PM

Mr. Self Destruct:

I don't think a pistol is the ideal defensive weapon by any means. However, I do think pistols are often a good compromise. They are easy to lock up, can be easily kept out of sight yet still quickly accessible, easy to use (revolvers anyways), and are generally 'less threatening' which is actually pretty important to a lot of people. It sounds silly, but my wife won't touch the shotgun, but she is perfectly comfortable using a pistol. I have known a lot of women (and a few men) who are simply not comfortable handling larger firearms.

Also, it is easy to take a pistol to any indoor/outdoor range to practice. Since USTWO specifically mentioned that he was interested in a firearm for his wife and he seems to be the driving force behind acquiring a home defense weapon (I.e. she isn't off getting her own gun), I am assuming that his wife, like mine, is only lukewarm about firearms. As such, knocking her around with some OO buck is probably not the best way to get her to go back to the range or feel comfortable with a defensive weapon. But a .357 loaded with light .38 loads is an easy weapon to learn on, easy to shoot, not threatening (for the shooter, at least), and generally ameniable to someone who is not a fellow gun nut. Which means she is far more likely to actually have it available and/or use it if it ever becomes necessary.

If his wife is experienced and not 'shy' around weapons, then a shotgun is a much better choice.

And while Pistols are decidedly harder to shoot well, and have a very limited range, they are plenty accurate enough for a bedroom or hallway encounter, even at night.

Tactical lights are another aid to those who are willing to learn how to use them in conjunction with a firearm. But unless you have one with a pressure pad, they really take time to get used to, which USTWO's wife probably isn't going to bother with (again, I'm assuming she is somewhat like mine).

Besides, even over here in afghanistan, I keep a pistol near my bed because it takes too long to get up, grab and shoulder a long gun from bed.

I guess this whole debate probably boils down to a percieved difference in ability. I agree that a shotgun is the better weapon, but not that it is better for everyone in all circumstances.

Baraka_Guru · 01-09-2008, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

London has more violent crime than New York.

The US murder rates are higher, take out gang violence and we are the same as the rest of Europe, and as a white male I have less chance of being murdered than many of my European counterparts.

Can we take out gang violence from the rest of Europe as well? How well will the comparison hold up then? London alone has at least 169 gangs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Time to shatter another liberal illusion.

Do you usually shatter "illusions" by overlaying it with another?

Ustwo · 01-09-2008, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Can we take out gang violence from the rest of Europe as well? How well will the comparison hold up then? London alone has at least 169 gangs.

Do you usually shatter "illusions" by overlaying it with another?

Please compare population sizes, numbers of violent crimes and be aware that after you make your shocking discovery that the US puts rapes and sexual assaults into our violent crime statistics and the UK doesn't to add icing to your discovery.

I've done this before, I won't do your google homework for you this time.

01-07-2008, 07:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	This is surprising... why? Lawful people trained in the basics of marksmanship covertly carrying lawfully registered firearms in order to defend themselves just in case they get mugged. I think I understand this because I own and carry firearms... You know the best part? They government lets me do it because I passed their qualification tests. ... WillRavel? ... UsTwo, HANDGUN: Any double action 4" barreled .357 Magnum revolver by Smith & Wesson or Taurus would be a fine "load and forget" home defense handgun. Only gun you'll ever need for a whole lot of reasons. You can load it and leave it forever. No springs to weaken, no mags to fumble or lose, no chamber to jam, no slide to get stuck, and hell, you can use the gun as a club when it runs outta rounds. 100% reliable. Both manufacturers' most recent models feature an integral firing mechanism key lock (for if you have children or wanna sleep with it locked for some reason). S&W 686 .357 Magnum Taurus Tracker .357 Magnum Get some HKS speedloaders and train with them. Ammunition should be Federal Hydrashock or Winchester SXTs. These guns are as easy pie to use. .357 Magnum revolvers can also use .38 Special ammunition, which has less power / kick for training purposes or if your wife is squeamish about recoil. HKS 6-Shot Speedloader IMPORTANT: Make sure you keep a high-quality 3v flashlight next to the gun and reloads. Train with the use of the flashlight and handgun in your own home in the dark. Surefire is a popular choice. Surefire Nitrolon 3V flashlight, your most important home defense tool ALSO: I'd seriously consider getting a 12 gauge shotgun or pistol-caliber carbine instead of a handgun. I've mentioned the reasons numerous times in other threads. Lemme know if you want me to rehash. Gun talk gets me hard. Winchester 1300 12 gauge slide-action shotgun, 7 shot mag Bushmaster 9mm AR-15 style semi-automatic carbine, 30 shot mag __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 01-07-2008 at 07:47 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

01-08-2008, 05:54 AM	#11 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	For your wife: If she does not have much firearms experience, she should have something simple, easy to operate, and easy to use (I.E. not intimidating, heavy, or lots of recoil). I would recommend either a good, simple pistol or a pump shotgun with reduced recoil buckshot, depending on her personal preferences and comfort level. Any firearm that she is comfortable holding and using in an emergency will be infinitely better than the super deadly cannon that she can't handle. Many women have trouble operating most revolvers due to the distance to the trigger and the force required for the double action trigger. Smith and Wesson makes a line of revolvers designed for women, if you want to go that route. There are many good automatic pistols available, just make sure whatever you buy fits her comfortably so she can pull the trigger and work the safety (if present) easily. If she is not gun/defense oriented, I don't think you will have much luck getting her to practice reloading or effectively using a flashlight. My wife is willing to go shoot, and is comfortable using some of my firearms, but she is not about to practice using a flashlight while shooting, doing rapid reloads, etc. And to expect her to do so in an emergency would be a mistake. If she remembered the flashlight, she would likely not operate the weapon well as she would be screwing around with a light. A weapon-mounted light is an option, but while helpful isn't really necessary. I leave a nightlight on in our hallway to keep this from being a problem. My wife can see well enough to ID and engage a bad guy, and doesn't have to worry about anything else. For you: Crompsin's advice is dead on, though I personally don't see much value in a 9mm carbine, you get pistol performance out of a package the size of a real rifle. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

01-08-2008, 08:39 AM	#15 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	It says fewer gun deaths. Note that between 2001 and 2006, Michigan saw an increase or little (or rebounding) change to the following crimes (measured as an index per 100,000 people): murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, and vehicle theft. Another interesting statistic, too, is how many of these crimes were committed by those with CCW permits. As the OP article suggests, 1 out of 100 permits are revoked. Some of these were as a result of major crimes being committed. I'd like see how these "laws reduce crime." What crime, exactly, are they talking about? I'm not saying that the publicity of CCW permits wouldn't reduce crime; I'm just curious to know which crimes were affected the most. I'm thinking property crimes would suffer the greatest impact. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 01-08-2008 at 08:43 AM..

01-08-2008, 09:32 AM	#17 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Baraka Guru: Even if they don't reduce crime, they do allow individual citizens to take responsibility for their own safety. Even if crime as a whole remains constant, the CCW law gives those who want to excercise it, the ability to increase their level of personal security and decrease their individual chances of becoming a victim. As a fan of personal responsibility, I don't see the downside to this. What I failed to convey in my previous post about firearms choices was that for someone who is not going to spend a great deal of time getting familiar with their weapon, absolute simplicity is paramount, IMHO. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

01-08-2008, 12:19 PM	#19 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	I think Crompsin nailed it with a .357 revolver or a pump/auto shotgun. I personally wouldn't recommend an automatic pistol or semi auto rifle for home defense unless using firearms is a hobby of yours. Although anything is better than nothing. KISS principle imo for home defense. __________________ It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

01-07-2008, 09:54 PM	#4 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	Its not registered guns that are a problem. How often do you hear of a murder taken place by a person who lawfully purchased and owned a gun? So yea, another useless news article if you ask me

01-07-2008, 09:57 PM	#6 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	I don't get it crompson... you mean to say a plastic?? oh man, I am hilarious!

01-07-2008, 10:06 PM	#7 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Ustwo can you please link your article?

01-07-2008, 10:32 PM	#9 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Thank you. I'm sure you'd ask the same thing if I provided an article that was really anti gun with stats to back it up. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-h...e_b_77895.html

01-08-2008, 06:04 AM	#12 (permalink)
Bear Cub The Reverend Side Boob Location: Nofe Curolina	Don't necessarily discount a .223 or one of its variants as Crompsin posted. Heck, my Bushmaster DCM rifle is what I use, but the AR Carbines are small enough to keep in a drawer, yet they also have an intimidation factor. In fact, a good friend of mine (and former CMP Highpower teammate) scared a robber out of his home with an empty M1A. He had his handgun with him, but did not want to shoot if he didn't have to. Being behind a closed door, he simply yelled "I'm armed", allowed the bolt on the rifle to snap shut, and the thief panicked and booked as fast as possible. No actual confrontation took place.

01-08-2008, 10:37 AM	#18 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	For home defense probably a shotgun is the best choice. If you want a handgun then any of the 9mm semi-autos like Glock or Beretta would be a good choice, plus light and easy to carry if you decide to later. With a pump action shotgun just chambering a round is enough to scare most intruders. I bought my wife a Benelli M3 Super 90. It can be selected for pump action or semi-auto. Type: selective pump-action or semi-auto recoil inertia operated Gauge: 12 Length: 1040-1200mm Barrel length: 500-660 mm. Weight 3.2-3.5 kg Capacity: 8 rounds in underbarrel tube magazine The Benelli M3 is an updated version of the Benelli M1 shotgun. M3 uses same inertia recoil semi-automatic system as earlier Benelli M1, but with addition of the another Benelli patented feature, which allows to the shooter to lock the semi-automatic action and switch to the manually operated pump-action mode and back in the matter of seconds. The action type switch is located at the forward end of the forearm, and is formed as an annular knurled ring. Rotation of this ring either engages the action rods of the pump system and locks the semi-automatic recoil system, or disengages the action bars, locks the forearm and allows the inertia recoil system to operate the action automatically. This greatly improves the versatility of the shotgun, allowing it to fire low-powered ammunition (mostly of special purpose, such as less-lethal rubber or tear-gas projectiles) in the manually operated pump action mode, and to fire full power combat loads with slugs or buckshot in rapid semi-automatic mode. Underbarrel tubular magazine usually holds 8 rounds for police or military versions, or less in some civilian models. M3 Super 90 is available with various barrel lengths and stock options, with fixed butt and semi-pistol or pistol grips, or with top-folding butts and pistol grips. Sight options include shotgun-type open sights, rifle type open sights, ghost ring (diopter) sights and various mounts for red dot or low magnification telescope sights and tactical flashlights and laser pointers.

01-08-2008, 12:20 PM	#20 (permalink)
QuasiMondo Wise-ass Latino Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA	That's a lot of barrel to be swinging around, methinks. __________________ Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

01-08-2008, 02:45 PM	#26 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I'll try to make this more clear: Under ENFORCED and UNBROKEN gun control, the statistics from the OP are likely to change significantly. Recognizing that existing gun control isn't enforced and procedures set up are not followed, it's unfair to scrap the entire idea. Is this more clear?

01-08-2008, 09:52 PM	#28 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Please, stop recommending pistols for home defense. Most pistol rounds, even popular hollow points, will penetrate further through common building materials than .223 or 00 buckshot. There's nowhere to mount a proper sight or flashlight (critical for a nighttime defense gun) and only massive revolvers that are unwieldy, heavy, and vastly overpowered for use on human targets approach even half the sight radius of the shortest Title I shotgun (I don't think I have to specify that Title II guns are almost always a bad idea for home defense.)

01-08-2008, 11:09 PM	#35 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Shotgun it is then...

01-08-2008, 11:16 PM	#36 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Yeah... as everybody on this thread has said: Get a 12 gauge shotgun with the buckshot size of your preference. Most importantly, though... get a flashlight and train with your tools. As GI Joe told you many years ago: "Education is your best defense." __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

01-08-2008, 11:22 PM	#37 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	And knowing is half the battle... GI JOE.

01-08-2008, 11:42 PM	#38 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Mr. Self Destruct: I don't think a pistol is the ideal defensive weapon by any means. However, I do think pistols are often a good compromise. They are easy to lock up, can be easily kept out of sight yet still quickly accessible, easy to use (revolvers anyways), and are generally 'less threatening' which is actually pretty important to a lot of people. It sounds silly, but my wife won't touch the shotgun, but she is perfectly comfortable using a pistol. I have known a lot of women (and a few men) who are simply not comfortable handling larger firearms. Also, it is easy to take a pistol to any indoor/outdoor range to practice. Since USTWO specifically mentioned that he was interested in a firearm for his wife and he seems to be the driving force behind acquiring a home defense weapon (I.e. she isn't off getting her own gun), I am assuming that his wife, like mine, is only lukewarm about firearms. As such, knocking her around with some OO buck is probably not the best way to get her to go back to the range or feel comfortable with a defensive weapon. But a .357 loaded with light .38 loads is an easy weapon to learn on, easy to shoot, not threatening (for the shooter, at least), and generally ameniable to someone who is not a fellow gun nut. Which means she is far more likely to actually have it available and/or use it if it ever becomes necessary. If his wife is experienced and not 'shy' around weapons, then a shotgun is a much better choice. And while Pistols are decidedly harder to shoot well, and have a very limited range, they are plenty accurate enough for a bedroom or hallway encounter, even at night. Tactical lights are another aid to those who are willing to learn how to use them in conjunction with a firearm. But unless you have one with a pressure pad, they really take time to get used to, which USTWO's wife probably isn't going to bother with (again, I'm assuming she is somewhat like mine). Besides, even over here in afghanistan, I keep a pistol near my bed because it takes too long to get up, grab and shoulder a long gun from bed. I guess this whole debate probably boils down to a percieved difference in ability. I agree that a shotgun is the better weapon, but not that it is better for everyone in all circumstances. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence