Willravel

Guns don't fetch.

DK, let's start over for the sake of sanity and actually sticking to the point. I'll ask my question again:

Using MSD's post about Norinco as a jumping off point, where do criminals who use guns in their crimes get their guns from?

dksuddeth

not having read the actual facts of the case, i'd first have to say that criminals get their guns from any source outside of the current law. To do so, they either have to steal them, or conspire with another entity to get around the limitations of the law. In most cases, this isn't hard to do.

While I understand that law enforcement agencies like to use possession laws to make prosecuting said gangbangers easier, they have a larger effect against a majority of the populace by placing limitations, restrictions, and hurdles for citizens to exercise a right. I don't believe this was the intent of the constitution....to make the majority suffer because of a minority.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

What would you do to prevent violent criminals who use guns in crimes from getting guns (other than simply arming everyone)?

dksuddeth

keep them in prison. That is the only sure way of keeping them from using guns against the rest of the law abiding population. In other words, if you commit a violent crime with a WEAPON (gun, knife, club, etc.) then you get life in prison with no chance for parole.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

This, though, suggests that you believe one of two things: either there aren't many criminals who use weapons or we have plenty of room in our prisons.

Baraka_Guru

In response to the loss of manufacturing jobs to places like China and India, America is seeing a spike in converted prison towns.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dksuddeth

There ARE many criminals who use weapons and we WOULD have plenty of room if we prosecuted the right crimes. For instance, if we'd stop jailing simple marijuana possession for years on end and stop releasing violent criminals who use weapons after a few years, we might see a balance in the way society reacts and has to act.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Should I be worried when I start finding myself agreeing with you in a gun thread? I totally agree with this post.

dksuddeth

should you be worried? not at all. It's a fresh look at freedom and liberty. welcome my friend.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

MSD

They were banned from importing anything but sporting shotguns for ten years and still aren't getting anything in. Some guy in the midwest signed a contract to make replacement parts for them and will eventually make the guns, but I won't be buying any because even if they hadn't tried to arm the segment of our population responsible for the most violent crime, they're still a company based on child and slave labor (technically really bad sweatshops with no safety precautions around heavy machinery and firearms, but close enough.)

Fire

Why not arm everyone- it seems to work for switzerland- they seem to have little problem with home invasions, drive-by's and such.... and they have a whole bunch of handy assault rifles.... why does no pro gun control person study their success.....

__________________
Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens

Willravel

Comon Fire, research!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1566715.stm

Their crime rate has nothing to do with gun ownership.

MSD

We're be a lot better off just letting the people who want to arm themselves do so.

dksuddeth

We have and it's fallen on deaf ears. Mainly because 'it's insane to give everyone a gun'....

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Ustwo

I'm not sure about that.

This creates a lot of people who have no understanding of firearms, are terrified of them, and think its 'best' if they are outlawed.

Having a gun use and safety class mandatory for all high school students might not be a bad thing for all in the long run.

The knee jerk reaction of course is we will have more school shootings or some such, but that same knee jerk reaction to gun crime has proven to do just the opposite after they ban them.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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dksuddeth

It probably would also help if we could stop fostering the 'guns are only for criminals' urban propaganda that has flourished for the last 35 years.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

MSD

Oh, I don't disagree with that, but once everyone realizes that guns aren't evil and can be fun in addition to being able to save them in worst-case scenarios, I think we'd be better off not pushing for anyone to own and/or carry who isn't 100% ready to take on the responsibility of carrying a gun for self-defense.

All political correctness and sensitivity aside, of the things guns are made to do, the primary purpose is to allow the user to escape from imminent death or harm by killing the assailant before he can do any harm. Nobody should own a gun for self-defense unless they understand that self defense with a gun requires willingness to kill another person. I hope that I will never so much as have to consider touching a gun in response to a threat, but I realize that if I am armed and faced with a life-or-death situation, that there will be no warning shots, the bad guy's gun will not be shot out of his hand, I will have to shoot first unless the attacker ceases to pose a threat to my life in the time it takes to draw and aim.

I just don't think that the majority of people are willing to make that commitment.

Willravel

I might play with a gun on a range (if I were massively bored and possibly drunk), but there's no way I'm having one in my home. As such, training me wouldn't make much sense.

Fire

not to preach, but one should never play with a gun while drunk, much as one should never drive drunk- i am sure that was in jest- Further, note, that I in part believe that our problem is cultural, and the banning of items will not matter a damn bit, a determined person will kill the shit out of his neighbors somehow..... what we should do is work on is personal responsibility- once the will to harm is there, it is going to happen, whether with a gun or a rock or a bomb- really, with our culture like it is, if you ban guns, and somehow keep CRIMINALS from getting them ILLEGALLY, then the bombs will start going off- look at iraq- I see us going that route rather than toward any other end.....

__________________
Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens

Force 10

No sence arguing.

I am a warrior.

smoore

Ustwo: If you haven't purchased your shotgun yet I heartily suggest checking out the Benelli Nova Pump. A couple years ago I decided to replace my Mossberg defender with an 870 because I remembered how much more I liked it and didn't want a "tacticool" gun anymore for when the gun grabbers came.

I walk into The Gun Room (a great shop) here in Lakewood and say, "Hi, I want a Remington 870." The guy behind the counter says, "Heh, wait till you get a load of THIS! I haven't sold an 870 since I got them in!"

Holy Crap, I see why. Superior in every way, IMO. Chamber clear feature, 3.5in magnums (as opposed to 3in), apparently better sight rail (opinion) and it even came with chokes. Parkerized and nylon instead of blued and wood. All for the same price as a bare bones 870. The weapon is more balanced and points very well.

The only "minus" is that the receiver and rear stock are integrated so you can't put tacticool grips on them. Hey, that was a bonus for me.

You can get a mercury filled recoil reducer which I have demo'd and will probably purchase eventually. Highly recommended for 3.5in magnums! Spare barrels are very expensive but they are available in the wide range shotgun enthusiasts expect. Benelli quality at Remington pricing.

http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/novaPump.tpl

An added benefit of owning a shotgun is that you can shoot clays with them... perhaps the most fun you can have with a firearm.

I'm not going to get into the politics of this debate any more than to say, "The second ensures the first!" I can see the framers sitting around saying, "Hrm, we need freedom of expression but someone will eventually try to take it away. I've got it! Weapons!"

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smoore

Suave

Similarly, the US crime rate has nothing to do with gun ownership either. Trying to prevent gun crime by further regulating firearms is like using a Band-Aid in an attempt to treat ebola. Sure, technically blood and bandages might seem like they should logically be related, but in this case the bandage won't do shit.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

Willravel

Suave, we won't know that until we start using smart gun control. Right now we have a gun ban in DC next to an area with virtually no gun control, West Virginia. This is an example of DC trying to do something to lower their crime rate, and WV deciding to be stubborn. It has to happen on a federal level. Had WV gotten stronger gun laws or had DC not been the staging ground for a gun ban things could have been much different.

Can you imagine if the gun ban was in Hawaii instead of DC?

Suave

I can't imagine. Don't know enough about Hawaii (though I wouldn't think they have TOO many issues with violent crime too nice).

I can, however, state the oft-quoted information that Canada and Switzerland both have similar per capita gun ownership to the US yet significantly lower gun crime rates. I can also tell you that I have done a partial historical analysis of Canadian (federal) gun control since the 1970s when it was first strengthened in a major fashion, and that there has been no evidence for an effect on gun crime or violent crime.

Violence is not a pathology of the tool, but of the person, be it individually or culturally. Guns do make it more efficient to kill another person, but they do not increase the likelihood that someone will attempt to kill another, nor does the fatality rate increase significantly beyond other means of weapon-involved assault.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

Willravel

I'm not saying that violence is due to the tool. What I'm saying is that a man with a knife is not as dangerous as a man with a gun. In fact, I could kill 10x as many people with a gun as a knife. They make killing quite easy.

SSJTWIZTA

why does everyone go for 12 ga?

if someone is in your home i would think that they would be pretty close, so wouldnt a 20 ga. work just as well?

just asking because i have my 20 ga sitting next to me for home protection and not my 12 ga. / 3 and a half inch magnum.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

smoore

For me it's because of readily available ammo. I can handle the 12ga and the shells are cheaper when I want to go bust clay. I don't know the ballistics but I think a 20ga with 00 buck would be just fine. I just don't own one.

And? I can kill more people with an IED than I can with a gun. They make killing even more easy. Shall we ban diesel fuel?

(Oh crap, I just got sucked into the political argument)

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smoore

Suave

The possibility may be there, but people don't do it. And as our good friend smoore pointed out, there are many ways to kill large amounts of people if one so desires. Vehicular homicide, IED, poison, and so forth. In fact, they're easier for the average person to use than a firearm, as it's is significantly harder to hit ones target with a firearm than one might believe from watching movies.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

dksuddeth

hawaii has nearly the same laws as DC does. A permit is required to purchase any weapon and these permits are RARELY issued, unless you're connected.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

You're absolutely right, DK. And in 2006 only 21 people were murdered in a state that not only has about 1.29 million people but also sees tens of thousands of vacationers a year. That's less than half the murder rate of West Virginia, which has virtually no gun laws.

dksuddeth

whats the rest of the violent crime stats for hawaii?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/hicrime.htm

BTW, do you have gun crime stats for Hawaii? I can't find any.

dksuddeth

i'm looking, but they are hard to find.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Suave

http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank21.html

Vermont, a state with some of the laxest gun laws in the country, has a lower violent crime rate than Hawaii.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

Willravel

Check out the murder rate.

399 murders to a population of 7.6 million. That's 1 murder for every 12,155 people. Hawaii? 1 of 61,214. Vermont has over 5 times the murder rate per capita.

smoore

Fuck all that murder rate stuff, I just want to know if Ustwo checked out the Binelli or if he had already decided on some other shotgun.

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smoore

Ustwo

Neither, I still need to get my firearms card, required in the peoples republic of illionis and I haven't filled out the paper work yet.

I also owe my wife a .223 I promised her a few years ago.

Odds are I will wait about a year until we are able to move.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

smoore

Woh, you have to register to own long arms there? Weird. I need to go check that out.

I suppose that registration will come in handy for the govt. when they need to start collecting the weapons.

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smoore

dksuddeth

Illinois is the most anti-gun state that there is. They'd ban them all if it weren't for 1/3rd of the population being hunters.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Ustwo

Its illegal to carry one in your car, in your trunk if its ready to fire. I don't mean as in loaded I mean as in together in such a way that I COULD load it.

Fucking democrats, first up against the wall when the revolution comes...well after the lawyers.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.