Plan9

Too bad they do a better job than us.

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Willravel

They get paid like 5x more and they seem to be eternally attached to horrible things; murder, rape, conspiracy, corruption. It's like someone took the worst elements in military—the exceptions, who don't seem to have honor—and created a private military out of them.

Ustwo

Thats a strong statement will and I imagine it being delivered with strong feeling. I admit I haven't payed a lot of attention to the doings of Blackwater beyond that well publicized and confusing incident from last year. So I'm wondering from where do you draw such strong feelings?

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Willravel

Feelings?

I'm basing it on factual evidence. You should read "Blackwater: The Wise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army" by Jeremy Scahill, the investigative journalist. Here's just a few examples:
http://agonist.org/20071210/victim_g...comment-138708
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/wo...2shooting.html

I'll post more later.

Ustwo

By feelings I mean passion, not feelings as in you feel they did this.

A potentially distressing case, though I might appreciate it if you had more details from a website which perhaps was a bit less focused in their world view. Such can be good starts of course, but it seems they are a bit biased and one must take their work with a grain of salt.

Unfortunate and perhaps it was indeed not as they state in self defense but a unprovoked murder by a blackwater employee. People do horrible things under the influence of alcohol, but to what extent do you blame an entire organization on the acts of one individual?

How much good, and security is blackwater bringing? We will hear the claims of the bad, as such is news, but much like umpires at a baseball game, you only know they are there when they screw up. Does anyone here know what they contribute to the actions which we all hope brings peace and stability to Iraq? Can you really measure the worth of a company, any company, by only looking at the complaint department? I ask because I do not know. I do not know how many blackwater mercenaries are employed in Iraq, I know not what their jobs are, and I know not what their successes are. Perhaps it is a bit strong to condemn the effort without first knowing more of what happens.

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dc_dux

Ustwo....you mikght want to read a House Committtee report on Blackwater.

Of course, it's Waxman's Government Oversight Committee so you might not think its factual.

I would direct you to the favorable report from the State Department Inspector General at the time when the most agregious Blackwater shootings were brought to light...but unfortunately, its been pulled from the State Department web site when it was revealed that the State IG's brother was on the Blackwater Advisory Board of Directors.

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Ustwo

Such was a complaint list, and interesting reading, but oddly quite short on anything beyond that only briefly mentioning Blackwaters help with US operations.

So the question is still open as to what they do.

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dc_dux

If you read the House report, you would know what they are charged to do and the issues raised about how they carried it out.

I'm sure you can find the specific incident reports for each shooting if you care to search.

One of the problems with the incidents reports that was confirmed by State was that the on-site reports were prepared by Blackwater personal, rather than on-site State Dept officials as required by law. Do you see a potential problem with that?

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Ustwo

I am not wondering what their official duties are but how they carry them out, and how effective they are.

I am not even arguing the incidents, I wasn't there to dispute or collaborate, but the question is are the incidents, something we have had far worse from our own troops, worth their employment.

Are they vital to restoring peace and security to Iraq, as I am sure you and I both want to see happen, or are they simply overpaid bouncers with a dubious chain of command?

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dc_dux

I may be wrong, but I think we now have more private security companies/personnel serving in Iraq and performing both military and security functions than we do military personnel. Both DoD and State are contracting out more and more functions to these companies.

The greatest danger is that they are not held to the same legal standard...not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice or, in some cases, not even subject to US law for crimes committed in Iraq.

The system is broken.

edit: correction on the numbers of contrators....there about about 130,000+ US contract personnel in Iraq, with about 30,000 havng security functions (ie Blackwater type firms); the rest are performing other functions for DoD and State Dept. (ie Halliburton type firms).

The issue of accountability under law still applies. (article from American Society of International Law)

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Plan9

And still I fail to see how a private company has committed any crime worse than the US military has in the past. The US military is just better at covering things up whereas the oversight of modern contractors is intense. Compare the timelines of the two entities. How long have we been using contractors, again?

UCMJ is hilarious. Turns out you have to apply the law for it to mean anything.

I've seen a lot of shit that applies that never goes beyond the PL. Military is very "good old boys" when it wants to be.

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Tully Mars

I served in peace time so my experience my well be an apples and dynamite comparison. But I completely agree with Chomp's statement here. My opinion of how the UCMJ was utilized was it depended on how the Navy would benefit or not from the action. Justice rarely had anything to do with it.

Research or google USS Iowa explosion for more info.

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Willravel

I'm not saying the military is all sunshine and farts, but they at least can be held accountable should evidence be presented. Blackwater doesn't have to follow the UCMJ. Until there is a mercenary legal code that's internationally applicable that includes human rights and such, we're asking for trouble.

ottopilot

Jeff "Skunk" Baxter is a very accomplished guitarist and past member of famous rock bands Doobie Brothers and Steely Dan. Skunk Baxter is also a top missile defense expert who consults with defense think-tanks and the U. S. government. The Doobie Brothers band had a hit song called "Black Water".

Coincidence?

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j8ear

I'm pretty sure each is referring to a specific and identical body of black water in N Caro...not a coincidence at all, but in fact a direct connection.

Any how, I know Blackwater (mercenaries incorporated) fairly well, some of their actors, and have been to the facility in Mayokc....or some such place, shooting off my wea...ur mouth.

The BW operators are all US Military Trained veterans of exclusively Special Forces grade. Huge egos, extremely well paid, equippped, and trained and they have no problem killing people. Not alot of folks who hold all those creds and quals.

Let's not forget that they have also shepharded, protected, or interfered with assination attempts on various VIPs, heads of state, diplomats, negotiators, and citizens in general. They've also taken casualties and ultimately sacrificed human resources.

Those are my observations, without reading any of the cited reports.

Our military is strechted thin, and they (us, you, DOD) obviously already kind of have all the assets they trained handy, fairly reliable, centrally locatable, self deployable, and it would seem somewhat accountable, to do some of this dangerous work. I'm not sure I see a problem with it.

-bear

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ottopilot

sorry ... I was playing.

I agree with your pros and cons perspective.

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m0rpheus

And I consider many of the ideas that the United States puts forward including the ones like the liberty and freedom to buy a product who's sole purpose is to kill instead of ones that might actually help society.

Yes people should work towards the betterment and benefit of society as a whole.
I have never said that people are a commodity and it should not be the "whim" of the government to protect its people, it should be the mandate of the government.
As far as being "victimized" by this elite group of criminals, last time I looked out the window I don't live in some frontier where gangs of outlaws run rampant and I need a gun to protect the homestead because the nearest form of law enforcement is a half days ride. I live in a city. The nearest law enforcement is about a 10 minute walk.

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MSD

How many murders are committed with guns each year in the US and how many law-abiding citizens legally use legally owned guns to defend themselves from criminals each year? Emotion aside, this is a very simple case of whether A or B is a larger value.

Plan9

It's that easy? Sweet. Self defense loses every time in this school of thought. It's important that the righteous minority loses. Unarmed victims - GO!

/cowering raped college girls and battered grandmas

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MSD

Last I checked, the homicide rate is 40000-50000 and the number of legitimate self-defense incidents reported to police was around 23000000. I'm pretty sure that in the '80s and '90s, the number of sexual assaults defended against by armed would-be victims was larger than the homicide rate.

Willravel

Pacifier

23 000 000 ?! that would result in every 13th american has used a gun in self defence. Have you asked your friends how many used their guns that way?

The number is more likely to be around 1.0 mio - 2 mio
different surveys range from 800,000 to 2.5 million
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

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dksuddeth

gunfacts.info puts the FBI estimate around 2.5 million. probably not that high, but i'd believe over 1 million

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MSD

Extra zero in there, sorry about that. The number I've seen is 2.3M

Hmm, I guess they updated their data. You have to be careful with that, though -- a number of FBI reports cited regarding gun crime statistics specifically state in their introductions that the data cannot be reliably used to predict or analyze gun crime statistics.