Illegal Immigration - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

rlbond86 · 11-07-2007, 11:07 PM

Illegal immigration...

There are at least 12 million people in the United States who are not supposed to be here. I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on what's to be done about this.

While I feel that illegal immigrants are bad for our society, we can't go on a witch hunt and throw them out. Moreover, any politicians who suggest a hard stance on illegal immigration face political suicide in the face of the growing Latino vote.

I believe this is true because of the Latino emphasis on family. It seems to me, unfortunately, that the only realistic way to fix this problem is blanket amnesty for illegal immigrants and their families. I think that Latinos would accept a compromise -- amnesty and legal alien status to illegals and their immediate families, in exchange for a wall, and much tougher laws against illegals. Once the illegals were made legal aliens, they would pay an extra tax to pay for their previous time spent as an illegal and the ability to be with their families; of course, they would be getting a pay raise anyway since now they couldn't be paid under minimum wage.

This is the only way I see that will work. These 12 million aren't leaving, and we don't have the resources to hunt them down if we wanted to. At least if we did this, yeah, maybe there would be 20 million people instead of 12 million, but illegal immigration would effectively stop after that. We would have passed extremely strict legislation forbidding their employment with extremely harsh penalties and a big wall, all with the Latino approval.

Does anyone else have opinions on the topic? Ideas that legislators would sign on to? Ideas that Latinos would agree to?

dksuddeth · 11-08-2007, 06:09 AM

To some on here, they are not illegal, they are just undocumented. There is no such thing as an illegal alien and breaking the law to enter our country is a good thing because it's a bad law. [/sarcasm]

loquitur · 11-08-2007, 06:40 AM

Immigration is a good thing and we need more of it. There is a lot of untapped talent in this world, and this country can give that talent more opportunities to flower than most other countries can.

I'm not thrilled that so much of our immigration is from one place and not thrilled that it's illegal, either. We do need to get better control of our borders. But we certainly do need immigrants; we benefit from their energy and their leavening of the culture. If it was up to me, I'd want immigration from diverse sources (in practice, this would mean, in all likelihood, more Asians and Africans, and fewer Mexicans), with a much better system to welcome people without degrading them. The current system is a disgrace. It's not that I have anything against Mexicans, it's just that they seem to have an unfair advantage as against other potential immigrants because of their proximity. I see no reason we should necessarily want more immigrants from Mexico than from, say, Guatemala or Nepal or Indonesia or Benin. It's more that the Mexicans have luck of the draw because of the accident of geography, and that's a lousy way to set immigration policy.

As for the 12 million here illegally - I'd offer a path to normalization, so long as it's not penalty-free. People who have the gumption to seek out opportunity are the kind of people I like to have here, but I don't want to encourage mass lawbreaking, so there has to be some downside to having broken the law and come in illegally. Those who have gone through the process to immigrate legally shouldn't be made to feel like chumps by the country just welcoming in those who didn't follow the rules.

Going forward, more LEGAL immigration, get rid of illegal. And more immigration from more places.

abaya · 11-08-2007, 06:52 AM

Well, most of y'all know that I have way too much to say on the subject... so I'm going to refrain from participating, for once. However, I do want to point out a few very interesting paragraphs from a piece on illegal immigration (and the notion of "illegality" in American, in general) in Slate. I would be glad to hear people's feedback on this, if you have time to read it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slate

So why has the United States chosen a method—border enforcement—that's less effective than zealous domestic prosecution? If we thought illegal immigration was really a bad thing—if, say, the problem were the unlawful arrival not of workers, but of disease-bearing chickens—the government might rapidly deploy the most effective form of enforcement, with the support of all parts of society. But instead the nation tolerates illegal immigration to create a de facto guest-worker program. Immigration is what economists call "trade in services," and effective enforcement would make most services more expensive, just as blockading China would make many goods more expensive. It can be tough on low-wage workers, but the United States is richer overall because we get cheaper labor, while Mexicans and other workers are richer for selling it.

If all this is true, isn't creating a legalized guest-worker program the right thing to do? That's where political failure kicks in, for the political discussion of immigration policy is both inflamed and insane. The Republican Party is split between free traders and nativists, and the latter are much more vocal. Many in the Democratic Party—loyal to organized labor on this point—go nuts when it comes to guest-worker programs. Illegal immigrants themselves don't have representation. It all adds up to a big political zero.

Under the de facto guest-worker system, the United States gets to have its cake and eat it too. We receive all the advantages of cheap labor without the duties of having new citizens. We don't actually have to pass an unpopular or complex law. Elected officials and talk-radio hosts get to talk tough about "securing the border" which is tough on the actual migrants, but doesn't raise any actual danger of halting illegal immigration, hurting the economy, or displeasing large employers. And grown men get to fly giant model airplanes in the desert to "patrol" the Mexican border. Hypocrisy, in short, has its comforts.

Immigration policy is perhaps the strongest example of the ways in which tolerated lawbreaking is used to make the legal system closer to what lies in the economic interests of the nation but cannot be achieved by rational politics. All this is why the Bush administration faces an uphill battle in the course of trying a real internal enforcement strategy. My bet is that internal enforcement will be stopped somehow, someway. Let's be honest: We'll never say it, but this country must love illegal immigration.

Infinite_Loser · 11-08-2007, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

There are at least 12 million people in the United States who are not supposed to be here. I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on what's to be done about this?

There are about 400 million people currently living in the United States who shouldn't be here. Just ask the natives who here first.

ottopilot · 11-08-2007, 08:21 AM

Ustwo · 11-08-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

There are about 400 million people currently living in the United States who shouldn't be here. Just ask the natives who here first.

I would be they were killed off by the Clovis people

roachboy · 11-08-2007, 09:03 AM

christ...this again.

undocumented workers.

that the category under discussion.

it has little if anything to do with "illegal immigration"
it becomes about "illegal immigration" when reverse migration and other such information is left out of what passes for a discussion.
but hey---"illegal immigration" works to distract people...it allows for fantasies about being-invaded and snippiness about the reorganization of contemporary capitalism to be directed not at firms, not at capital, but rather at folk who already have restricted rights, who already are exploited, who are hired by firms to perform functions because they'll work cheap and cant easily organize into labor unions. but because in the degenerate political context we continue to endure, wherein neo-liberal horseshit is still confused with a viable socio-economic ideology, capital is understood as a priori good and firms "rational actors" in some mythical "private sphere" of the economy, it follows that folk would not think much about firms who hire undocumented workers, preferring instead to froth on and on about their fictional duplicate in the "illegal immigrant"

a reactionary red herring.
that's all this "issue" is.

Mojo_PeiPei · 11-08-2007, 09:17 AM

It really isn't all that big of a deal to me.

A few points is how its illegal. How the mexican government is pushing it as apart of public policy and it accounts for way to much of their GDP.

I don't like that illegals are draining American tax payer money i.e. public schooling, health care, then obvious issues like border enforcement and prosecution.

On the other they are doing horse shit jobs at horse shit wages, anyone who says they are taking American jobs are idiots, unless you like working at Mcdonalds or scrubing floors for a living. On that India and the like would be a real problem for the American work force.

Also in so far as the Native Americans are concerned... Venni vetti vicci.

ottopilot · 11-08-2007, 09:38 AM

dksuddeth · 11-08-2007, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

christ...this again.

yes, this again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

undocumented workers.

that the category under discussion.

are they here legally? if no, then they are illegal immigrants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

a reactionary red herring.
that's all this "issue" is.

um, yeah. ok.

Bill O'Rights · 11-08-2007, 09:48 AM

The answer is, of course, ridiculously simple.

1.) Build "The Wall".

2.) Line all the "illegals" up against it, and shoot 'em.

3.) Auction their stuff, and profit.

Disclaimer for the noobies: I am, of course just kidding.

Rekna · 11-08-2007, 09:50 AM

First secure the boarders (both of them not just mexico). Then offer a path to citizenship to illegals who are here. This path should involve showing that they are 1) not a criminal (take finger prints, look at records, etc), 2) involve paying fines that are income based (that way not only those with money can go down this path), 3) that they can contribute to society by being sponsored by an employer. There would have to be provisions in this plan which would extend to people who are dependent on those described in the first 3 points, ie children, parents, disabled, etc.

Really we need to figure out where the problems lie. And it is my feeling that it doesn't lie in just 1 spot. Our immigration policy is to strict thus good immigrants can't get here and our border security is non-existent.

What won't help is fear mongering on illegals, making them felons, or throwing them in jail. They are here because they are trying to live the American dream. Most of these people are simply want what our forefathers wanted when they moved here

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

If we provide a path for them to do this legally many of them will take this path and those that don't we can come down on harder, if we had better security then it would be much harder for them to get here illegally. The key is to make this path in such a way that it is fair to everyone.

pig · 11-08-2007, 10:16 AM

i'd rather get rid of this guy than mexicans down the street hanging drywall anyday:

that said, i'd be careful about saying that the 'latino' vote will get up in arms about closing down the mexican border. i know several people from other latin/central/south american countries that would love the junk out of that.

i will also say that our current situation did not arise accidentally; this way our shit work gets done and we don't even really have to think about it. it's like a whole different group...or class...or, i don't know...caste can do it for us!!!

inBOIL · 11-08-2007, 03:12 PM

Most people focus on conditions in the U.S. driving illegal immigration, but ignore external causes. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are here because the economy in their home country is in the shitter. Aid packages that include low-interest loans for starting small businesses have already had success in several countries, including Mexico. Unfortunately, these are poorly funded and really need government assistance to have and effect at the national level. Combining these loans with education and training in how to set up a business, along with changing local laws and reducing corruption to encourage entrepreneurship can drastically improve conditions in poor countries. This also has the advantage of being a permaent solution, and as such will probably cost far less than any "solution" that focuses mainly on acting within American borders.

If you remove the source of the problem, the problem itself will probably go away on its own.

flstf · 11-08-2007, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inBOIL

If you remove the source of the problem, the problem itself will probably go away on its own.

Also, if you remove the incentives. Make the penalties very expensive for US employers who hire undocumented workers. Deny most social benefits to illegals except emergency hospital care, etc.. and deport them as soon as possible after treatment. We should try to make it so the best choice people from other countries and those who are here illegally can make is to follow our laws and immigrate legally or go/stay home.

It would be very unfair to those who abide by our laws to grant amnesty or allow illegals to get in front of the line for citizenship.

inBOIL · 11-08-2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

Also, if you remove the incentives. Make the penalties very expensive for US employers who hire undocumented workers. Deny most social benefits to illegals except emergency hospital care, etc.. and deport them as soon as possible after treatment. We should try to make it so the best choice people from other countries and those who are here illegally can make is to follow our laws and immigrate legally or go/stay home.

It would be very unfair to those who abide by our laws to grant amnesty or allow illegals to get in front of the line for citizenship.

I agree, so long as removing incentives is only part of the plan. Making conditions here worse will have little effect as long as it's still better then where they come from.

hrandani · 11-08-2007, 10:30 PM

This country will be destroyed the day we begin acting like the self-destructive policies of Great Britain and France in regards to immigration. The nation was built on immigration, and it continues to be the best and worst of America.

TBH I like the Mexicans better than the natives most days.

And for all the throwing around of the word illegal - do you have any idea how many things you do on a daily basis that are illegal? Come on now. Nobody points their finger at you and says jesus h christ malcolm your tail light is out, you're a goddamn illegal. Holy Mother of God, you just went 5 over the speed limit and changed lanes during passage through an intersection, you're a goddamn illegal.

I know for a fact that my direct ancestors who landed in Massachusetts during the 1600s had no papers, no right to come here, I'm not about to turn around and deny honest people the means to support their families. They're just looking for work, they don't want a free ride any more than you do. If it hadn't been for our economic policies (here's to you, Milton Friedman) ravaging the finest Latin American countries financially, repeatedly over the past 50 years they might not even be coming up here for work.

abaya · 11-09-2007, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrandani

And for all the throwing around of the word illegal - do you have any idea how many things you do on a daily basis that are illegal? Come on now. Nobody points their finger at you and says jesus h christ malcolm your tail light is out, you're a goddamn illegal. Holy Mother of God, you just went 5 over the speed limit and changed lanes during passage through an intersection, you're a goddamn illegal.

Yep, that's what the Slate article I quoted from was all about... how "illegal" gets thrown around like some kind of measure of moral character, when in fact, MOST Americans are "illegal" about SOMETHING, every flipping day. We choose to ignore that fact and focus on CERTAIN illegal people, most likely because we don't like 'em talkin' a different language around us, must be talkin' 'bout us, goddamit... and they LOOK illegal, can't you just see it??

I was talking with a Mexican friend of mine (she's an associate professor at a large American research university) the other day, and she told me that when she went to a yoga class last week, she was parking her car and nearly got side-swiped by some woman gunning through the parking lot. My friend parked her car, got out, and the woman had parked her car directly behind my friend, rolled down the window, and said, "I should call the cops on you, you look like an illegal."

My friend said, "Excuse me, what does an "illegal" look like?" The woman replies, "You." My friend called her a racist bitch and walked off to the yoga studio, lol. The woman circled the yoga studio four times, waiting for my friend to emerge (she was watching from the window), but she never did. The whole event shook her up for several days.

WOW. And this was in Texas, btw. Now, you tell ME who the bigger asshole is, eh?

rlbond86 · 11-09-2007, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrandani

This country will be destroyed the day we begin acting like the self-destructive policies of Great Britain and France in regards to immigration. The nation was built on immigration, and it continues to be the best and worst of America.

TBH I like the Mexicans better than the natives most days.

And for all the throwing around of the word illegal - do you have any idea how many things you do on a daily basis that are illegal? Come on now. Nobody points their finger at you and says jesus h christ malcolm your tail light is out, you're a goddamn illegal. Holy Mother of God, you just went 5 over the speed limit and changed lanes during passage through an intersection, you're a goddamn illegal.

I know for a fact that my direct ancestors who landed in Massachusetts during the 1600s had no papers, no right to come here, I'm not about to turn around and deny honest people the means to support their families. They're just looking for work, they don't want a free ride any more than you do. If it hadn't been for our economic policies (here's to you, Milton Friedman) ravaging the finest Latin American countries financially, repeatedly over the past 50 years they might not even be coming up here for work.

Here's the problem. According to the laws of the United States, these people aren't supposed to be here. There's a legitimate way to gain entrance to this country, and these people are circumventing that. Moreover, many do not speak English or pay taxes or contribute to society. Now, like I originally said, I think we have no choice but to give the people who are here, and their immediate families, legal alien status, but impose an additional tax on them -- though I should have stated that criminals would be excluded. Then we should put forth a serious effort to stop any further illegal border crossing and step up enforcement. I feel like most rational people would accept this compromise. You can't just let anyone who wants to come to your country come in.

ubertuber · 11-09-2007, 01:59 PM

Whatever the solution is, I don't want to live behind a wall any more than I want to live in a society that condones torture. These things say more about our national character than our protestations of liberty, democracy, and even our media. We were built on better ideals than that, and we inherited better ideals than that. I'd like to think that we can preserve and even enhance those ideals.

There has to be a way to live that doesn't involve compromises of basic moral character.

dksuddeth · 11-09-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Yep, that's what the Slate article I quoted from was all about... how "illegal" gets thrown around like some kind of measure of moral character, when in fact, MOST Americans are "illegal" about SOMETHING, every flipping day. We choose to ignore that fact and focus on CERTAIN illegal people, most likely because we don't like 'em talkin' a different language around us, must be talkin' 'bout us, goddamit... and they LOOK illegal, can't you just see it??

so this is supposed to classify everyone who uses 'illegal alien' as a racist or prejudiced person?

Strange Famous · 11-09-2007, 02:38 PM

anyone who doesnt speak Iriquois is not supposed to be there.

These things just are beyond my capacity to comment on really.

But it is a common trait amongst immigrants (such as all european white Americans) - to want to shut the gate as soon as they are inside and secure.

Ustwo · 11-09-2007, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubertuber

Whatever the solution is, I don't want to live behind a wall any more than I want to live in a society that condones torture. These things say more about our national character than our protestations of liberty, democracy, and even our media. We were built on better ideals than that, and we inherited better ideals than that. I'd like to think that we can preserve and even enhance those ideals.

There has to be a way to live that doesn't involve compromises of basic moral character.

We were also founded without income tax for the first 100 years.

I'll trade you

roachboy · 11-09-2007, 02:49 PM

the category of "illegal immigrant" or "illegal alien" is a mode of structuring racism, yes. whether it is in itself racist is not obvious---that it can blur into racism in for many people is also obvious, but they add the racism (and so are responsible for it)--what the categories seem to me mostly to be about though is the same kind of odious nonsense that the notion of "terrorist" is about--enabling a distinction us/them inside/outside to be drawn.

so metaphorically, it is already about putting up gates around the community "we" inhabit.

that the category is based on fundamentally false premises seems not to disturb folk who find it reassuring to imagine themselves walling themselves off from "contamination" by the big scary bad Other.
that the stats which seem to support such nonsense are self-evidently partial seems also not to bother people.
maybe it's too much work to think about it, and much easier to simply combine "illegal alien" with the illusion that the united states is so fabulous that everyone on earth wants to come in and stay in, and will set up shop on your lawn unless you ward them off with one of your many many guns.

the fact that this is nothing more than a narcisstic circle jerk is not fun. being paranoid is fun.
its the amurican way these days.

Willravel · 11-09-2007, 03:15 PM

Immigrant work generates positive national income because their work is more productive (same work for less pay). Because of their lack of training due to poor economies and education in their home countries so they take the shitty jobs. How many white people do you suppose pick grapes in the Visalia area of California? You can find good work for low pay in agriculture, landscaping, construction, and restaurants because of them.

Honestly? I hope the anti-immigrant people succeed and have to pay $7 for an apple and $30 for a bag of raisins just so they understand how they benefited from the work of migrants.

Rekna · 11-09-2007, 03:27 PM

Where does the illegal's don't pay taxes come from? That is utter BS. Some of them don't but then again some citizens don't pay taxes either. Tell me how does an illegal avoid paying sales tax, car taxes, gas taxes, etc? How about the illegals that use false SS numbers. They pay income tax and SS but don't file for a return...... They do pay taxes.... sure some work under the table and that is different. Perhaps if we gave them an easy way to pay taxes and not have to work under the table....

dksuddeth · 11-09-2007, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

anyone who doesnt speak Iriquois is not supposed to be there.

These things just are beyond my capacity to comment on really.

But it is a common trait amongst immigrants (such as all european white Americans) - to want to shut the gate as soon as they are inside and secure.

which obviously explains why I, a cherokee descendent, want the borders shut.

rlbond86 · 11-09-2007, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

We were also founded without income tax for the first 100 years.

I'll trade you

We also didn't have penicillin, computers, rock music, Levi's, and the TFP. You can go back to the laws and society of 1776 but I'll stay right here, thanks.

Ustwo · 11-09-2007, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

We also didn't have penicillin, computers, rock music, Levi's, and the TFP. You can go back to the laws and society of 1776 but I'll stay right here, thanks.

I think someone missed the point completely, and your list has really nothing to do with, well anything that would be political.

hrandani · 11-09-2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

Here's the problem. According to the laws of the United States, these people aren't supposed to be here. There's a legitimate way to gain entrance to this country, and these people are circumventing that. Moreover, many do not speak English or pay taxes or contribute to society. Now, like I originally said, I think we have no choice but to give the people who are here, and their immediate families, legal alien status, but impose an additional tax on them -- though I should have stated that criminals would be excluded. Then we should put forth a serious effort to stop any further illegal border crossing and step up enforcement. I feel like most rational people would accept this compromise. You can't just let anyone who wants to come to your country come in.

Hi, my name is rlbond86, I'm totally incapable of original opinions or critical thought because my entire post was stolen entirely from any AM radio talk show in the past 5 years.

By the way, I know a shitload of illegal immigrants, and they all pay taxes. Not just to the IRS, but all the stuff we pay tax on in our daily lives, gasoline, tobacco, alcohol.. You've assembled a bunch of straw men and convinced yourself you have an army. Open your eyes for once.

Fact is this country cannot exist without illegal immigration right now, nor anytime in the future. Now you tell me how to deal with that.

Furthermore there is a massive illegal population of eastern europeans in the northeast united states and chinese in the west, but you NEVER hear people talk about how evil they are, and how they need to be deported. This could be construed as veiled racism.

Fuck it man, this is what America is all about. Starting over, and working your way to wealth from nothing. You're honestly going to take that away from impoverished third worlders? What the hell is wrong with you.

Plan9 · 11-09-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

the category of "illegal immigrant" or "illegal alien" is a mode of structuring racism, yes. whether it is in itself racist is not obvious---that it can blur into racism in for many people is also obvious, but they add the racism (and so are responsible for it)--what the categories seem to me mostly to be about though is the same kind of odious nonsense that the notion of "terrorist" is about--enabling a distinction us/them inside/outside to be drawn.

Yes, racism is a total cop out here. Racism would exist regardless. Fuck dumb white breads.

The real issue is the illegal part, not the immigrant part. The US is 99% immigrants on the right time line.

I don't care if we're being overrun by purple Martians... as long as they immigrate legally.

rlbond86 · 11-09-2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrandani

Hi, my name is rlbond86, I'm totally incapable of original opinions or critical thought because my entire post was stolen entirely from any AM radio talk show in the past 5 years.

By the way, I know a shitload of illegal immigrants, and they all pay taxes. Not just to the IRS, but all the stuff we pay tax on in our daily lives, gasoline, tobacco, alcohol.. You've assembled a bunch of straw men and convinced yourself you have an army. Open your eyes for once.

Fact is this country cannot exist without illegal immigration right now, nor anytime in the future. Now you tell me how to deal with that.

Furthermore there is a massive illegal population of eastern europeans in the northeast united states and chinese in the west, but you NEVER hear people talk about how evil they are, and how they need to be deported. This could be construed as veiled racism.

Fuck it man, this is what America is all about. Starting over, and working your way to wealth from nothing. You're honestly going to take that away from impoverished third worlders? What the hell is wrong with you.

Nice job distorting what I said. Here's an idea; maybe I actually consider other opinions and see which ones I think make the most sense instead of just making shit up. If we need these people so badly then make a law to allow them. I don't know how hard it is for you to understand that THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE HERE. Now, I did not say that we should hunt them down. I did not say that we should go arresting them. I said that they would benefit from legal status and we could prevent further influx of these people.

There are places in California and Florida where schools aren't even taught in English. That is wrong -- these children won't have a way to succeed outside their communities. Now I'm all for people seeking a legal way into this country. But you can't just let everyone in -- you CAN'T.

Meanwhile, if your illegal friends were offered a green card, legal rights, and a path to citizenship, would they accept? They even can take their immediate family along! They'd have to be crazy not to want that.

Most illegals do not have car insurance or a driver's license. This is bad news too. That means if I get hit by an illegal then I have to file for a hit-and-run in most cases, and the roads are not getting safer. Personally I am glad that some states are starting to offer illegal aliens the ability to be insured. Good for those states. But for now, this is still another argument about illegal aliens.

If we could stop illegal immigration almost completely, just think how many more legal aliens we could admit; those people who do not want to break the law but desperately want to live here. Did you ever think of that?

Next time you disagree with someone, attack the statement, not the person. For someone on the TFP for so long, I would expect you to know better.

Willravel · 11-09-2007, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

There are places in California and Florida where schools aren't even taught in English.

Citation needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

Most illegals do not have car insurance or a driver's license.

Citation needed.

albania · 11-09-2007, 07:02 PM

Hmm, any ideas that legislators and Latino immigrants would agree to… hmm: Amnesty for some and miniature American flags for others.

Rekna · 11-09-2007, 11:50 PM

There are places in the midwest where schools are taught in German..... ohh no how could they!!

abaya · 11-10-2007, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

The real issue is the illegal part, not the immigrant part. The US is 99% immigrants on the right time line.

I don't know about you, but I live pretty illegally when I'm in the US. I am an illegal driver. Yes, that's right folks, I'm illegal. I ALWAYS drive above the speed limit, which is breaking the law every time I'm behind the wheel. I have also driven after drinking (a couple of times), and if I had been pulled over, I am sure I would have failed the breathalyzer test. I have also parked illegally, driven without a license or even a permit (when I was 15), driven without tabs, even driven without insurance. All highly illegal acts.

Now, do any of you give a shit about that? I doubt it. I'd like to ask you, why not? Why don't you care about all the people I could be killing with my reckless driving every day, why aren't you calling for my arrest or deportation? I don't deserve to be an American citizen. I'm a danger to those around me. There are undocumented immigrants who drive more legally than I do. So why not call for more enforcement of illegal drivers and get me kicked out before I kill someone? After all, being illegal is BAD. VERY BAD. I am a bad person for driving illegally, and I must be punished.

I'm truly interested in your answers.

Plan9 · 11-10-2007, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

I don't know about you, but I live pretty illegally when I'm in the US. I am an illegal driver. Yes, that's right folks, I'm illegal. I ALWAYS drive above the speed limit, which is breaking the law every time I'm behind the wheel. I have also driven after drinking (a couple of times), and if I had been pulled over, I am sure I would have failed the breathalyzer test. I have also parked illegally, driven without a license or even a permit (when I was 15), driven without tabs, even driven without insurance. All highly illegal acts.

Now, do any of you give a shit about that? I doubt it. I'd like to ask you, why not? Why don't you care about all the people I could be killing with my reckless driving every day, why aren't you calling for my arrest or deportation? I don't deserve to be an American citizen. I'm a danger to those around me. There are undocumented immigrants who drive more legally than I do. So why not call for more enforcement of illegal drivers and get me kicked out before I kill someone? After all, being illegal is BAD. VERY BAD. I am a bad person for driving illegally, and I must be punished.

I'm truly interested in your answers.

We (US citizens) pay taxes. They (illegal aliens) don't. Is that simple.

Status is about money... more appropriately... the government taking it from us in the form of taxes to fund various systems. I don't think that I should pay for illegal immigrant kids to go to school as well as my own.

You really can't use the excuse that you're a shitty driver to defend illegal aliens.

abaya · 11-10-2007, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

We (US citizens) pay taxes. They (illegal aliens) don't. Is that simple.

All the illegal aliens I know pay plenty of taxes, just as hrandani gave examples of above.

Quote:

I don't think that I should pay for illegal immigrant kids to go to school as well as my own.

So you won't mind paying higher prices on all your food (I know you like vegetables) as long as you don't have to pay for illegal kids to go to school, right? I'm not talking about a few cents here and there... but whole dollars higher, which could end up doubling your grocery bill, if not tripling it. Hey, I guess if it makes you feel better that even MORE of your money is going to your grocery bill rather than would be going to educate immigrants, then I can't argue with you. That's a gut feeling you have that isn't going to change.

Quote:

You really can't use the excuse that you're a shitty driver to defend illegal aliens.

I'm not using it to defend them. I'm using to it show you how useless the word "illegal" is in this context. Illegal means nothing in the US, unless people want it to... that is my point, that was the point of the Slate article I quoted above. Did you check it out?

Skutch · 11-10-2007, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Illegal means nothing in the US, unless people want it to...

That is absurd.

11-07-2007, 11:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
rlbond86 Insane	Illegal Immigration Illegal immigration... There are at least 12 million people in the United States who are not supposed to be here. I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on what's to be done about this. While I feel that illegal immigrants are bad for our society, we can't go on a witch hunt and throw them out. Moreover, any politicians who suggest a hard stance on illegal immigration face political suicide in the face of the growing Latino vote. I believe this is true because of the Latino emphasis on family. It seems to me, unfortunately, that the only realistic way to fix this problem is blanket amnesty for illegal immigrants and their families. I think that Latinos would accept a compromise -- amnesty and legal alien status to illegals and their immediate families, in exchange for a wall, and much tougher laws against illegals. Once the illegals were made legal aliens, they would pay an extra tax to pay for their previous time spent as an illegal and the ability to be with their families; of course, they would be getting a pay raise anyway since now they couldn't be paid under minimum wage. This is the only way I see that will work. These 12 million aren't leaving, and we don't have the resources to hunt them down if we wanted to. At least if we did this, yeah, maybe there would be 20 million people instead of 12 million, but illegal immigration would effectively stop after that. We would have passed extremely strict legislation forbidding their employment with extremely harsh penalties and a big wall, all with the Latino approval. Does anyone else have opinions on the topic? Ideas that legislators would sign on to? Ideas that Latinos would agree to?

11-08-2007, 06:09 AM	#2 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	To some on here, they are not illegal, they are just undocumented. There is no such thing as an illegal alien and breaking the law to enter our country is a good thing because it's a bad law. [/sarcasm] __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

11-08-2007, 08:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	edit Last edited by ottopilot; 12-27-2007 at 08:24 AM..

11-08-2007, 09:03 AM	#8 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	christ...this again. undocumented workers. that the category under discussion. it has little if anything to do with "illegal immigration" it becomes about "illegal immigration" when reverse migration and other such information is left out of what passes for a discussion. but hey---"illegal immigration" works to distract people...it allows for fantasies about being-invaded and snippiness about the reorganization of contemporary capitalism to be directed not at firms, not at capital, but rather at folk who already have restricted rights, who already are exploited, who are hired by firms to perform functions because they'll work cheap and cant easily organize into labor unions. but because in the degenerate political context we continue to endure, wherein neo-liberal horseshit is still confused with a viable socio-economic ideology, capital is understood as a priori good and firms "rational actors" in some mythical "private sphere" of the economy, it follows that folk would not think much about firms who hire undocumented workers, preferring instead to froth on and on about their fictional duplicate in the "illegal immigrant" a reactionary red herring. that's all this "issue" is. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-08-2007, 09:17 AM	#9 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	It really isn't all that big of a deal to me. A few points is how its illegal. How the mexican government is pushing it as apart of public policy and it accounts for way to much of their GDP. I don't like that illegals are draining American tax payer money i.e. public schooling, health care, then obvious issues like border enforcement and prosecution. On the other they are doing horse shit jobs at horse shit wages, anyone who says they are taking American jobs are idiots, unless you like working at Mcdonalds or scrubing floors for a living. On that India and the like would be a real problem for the American work force. Also in so far as the Native Americans are concerned... Venni vetti vicci. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

11-08-2007, 06:40 AM	#3 (permalink)
loquitur Junkie Location: NYC	Immigration is a good thing and we need more of it. There is a lot of untapped talent in this world, and this country can give that talent more opportunities to flower than most other countries can. I'm not thrilled that so much of our immigration is from one place and not thrilled that it's illegal, either. We do need to get better control of our borders. But we certainly do need immigrants; we benefit from their energy and their leavening of the culture. If it was up to me, I'd want immigration from diverse sources (in practice, this would mean, in all likelihood, more Asians and Africans, and fewer Mexicans), with a much better system to welcome people without degrading them. The current system is a disgrace. It's not that I have anything against Mexicans, it's just that they seem to have an unfair advantage as against other potential immigrants because of their proximity. I see no reason we should necessarily want more immigrants from Mexico than from, say, Guatemala or Nepal or Indonesia or Benin. It's more that the Mexicans have luck of the draw because of the accident of geography, and that's a lousy way to set immigration policy. As for the 12 million here illegally - I'd offer a path to normalization, so long as it's not penalty-free. People who have the gumption to seek out opportunity are the kind of people I like to have here, but I don't want to encourage mass lawbreaking, so there has to be some downside to having broken the law and come in illegally. Those who have gone through the process to immigrate legally shouldn't be made to feel like chumps by the country just welcoming in those who didn't follow the rules. Going forward, more LEGAL immigration, get rid of illegal. And more immigration from more places.

11-08-2007, 09:38 AM	#10 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	edit Last edited by ottopilot; 12-27-2007 at 08:42 AM..

11-08-2007, 09:48 AM	#12 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	The answer is, of course, ridiculously simple. 1.) Build "The Wall". 2.) Line all the "illegals" up against it, and shoot 'em. 3.) Auction their stuff, and profit. Disclaimer for the noobies: I am, of course just kidding. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

11-08-2007, 09:50 AM	#13 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	First secure the boarders (both of them not just mexico). Then offer a path to citizenship to illegals who are here. This path should involve showing that they are 1) not a criminal (take finger prints, look at records, etc), 2) involve paying fines that are income based (that way not only those with money can go down this path), 3) that they can contribute to society by being sponsored by an employer. There would have to be provisions in this plan which would extend to people who are dependent on those described in the first 3 points, ie children, parents, disabled, etc. Really we need to figure out where the problems lie. And it is my feeling that it doesn't lie in just 1 spot. Our immigration policy is to strict thus good immigrants can't get here and our border security is non-existent. What won't help is fear mongering on illegals, making them felons, or throwing them in jail. They are here because they are trying to live the American dream. Most of these people are simply want what our forefathers wanted when they moved here "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" If we provide a path for them to do this legally many of them will take this path and those that don't we can come down on harder, if we had better security then it would be much harder for them to get here illegally. The key is to make this path in such a way that it is fair to everyone. Last edited by Rekna; 11-30-2007 at 08:52 AM..

11-08-2007, 10:16 AM	#14 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	i'd rather get rid of this guy than mexicans down the street hanging drywall anyday: that said, i'd be careful about saying that the 'latino' vote will get up in arms about closing down the mexican border. i know several people from other latin/central/south american countries that would love the junk out of that. i will also say that our current situation did not arise accidentally; this way our shit work gets done and we don't even really have to think about it. it's like a whole different group...or class...or, i don't know...caste can do it for us!!! __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

11-08-2007, 03:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
inBOIL I have eaten the slaw	Most people focus on conditions in the U.S. driving illegal immigration, but ignore external causes. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are here because the economy in their home country is in the shitter. Aid packages that include low-interest loans for starting small businesses have already had success in several countries, including Mexico. Unfortunately, these are poorly funded and really need government assistance to have and effect at the national level. Combining these loans with education and training in how to set up a business, along with changing local laws and reducing corruption to encourage entrepreneurship can drastically improve conditions in poor countries. This also has the advantage of being a permaent solution, and as such will probably cost far less than any "solution" that focuses mainly on acting within American borders. If you remove the source of the problem, the problem itself will probably go away on its own.

11-08-2007, 10:30 PM	#18 (permalink)
hrandani Insane	This country will be destroyed the day we begin acting like the self-destructive policies of Great Britain and France in regards to immigration. The nation was built on immigration, and it continues to be the best and worst of America. TBH I like the Mexicans better than the natives most days. And for all the throwing around of the word illegal - do you have any idea how many things you do on a daily basis that are illegal? Come on now. Nobody points their finger at you and says jesus h christ malcolm your tail light is out, you're a goddamn illegal. Holy Mother of God, you just went 5 over the speed limit and changed lanes during passage through an intersection, you're a goddamn illegal. I know for a fact that my direct ancestors who landed in Massachusetts during the 1600s had no papers, no right to come here, I'm not about to turn around and deny honest people the means to support their families. They're just looking for work, they don't want a free ride any more than you do. If it hadn't been for our economic policies (here's to you, Milton Friedman) ravaging the finest Latin American countries financially, repeatedly over the past 50 years they might not even be coming up here for work.

11-09-2007, 01:59 PM	#21 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Whatever the solution is, I don't want to live behind a wall any more than I want to live in a society that condones torture. These things say more about our national character than our protestations of liberty, democracy, and even our media. We were built on better ideals than that, and we inherited better ideals than that. I'd like to think that we can preserve and even enhance those ideals. There has to be a way to live that doesn't involve compromises of basic moral character. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

11-09-2007, 02:38 PM	#23 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	anyone who doesnt speak Iriquois is not supposed to be there. These things just are beyond my capacity to comment on really. But it is a common trait amongst immigrants (such as all european white Americans) - to want to shut the gate as soon as they are inside and secure. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

11-09-2007, 02:49 PM	#25 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the category of "illegal immigrant" or "illegal alien" is a mode of structuring racism, yes. whether it is in itself racist is not obvious---that it can blur into racism in for many people is also obvious, but they add the racism (and so are responsible for it)--what the categories seem to me mostly to be about though is the same kind of odious nonsense that the notion of "terrorist" is about--enabling a distinction us/them inside/outside to be drawn. so metaphorically, it is already about putting up gates around the community "we" inhabit. that the category is based on fundamentally false premises seems not to disturb folk who find it reassuring to imagine themselves walling themselves off from "contamination" by the big scary bad Other. that the stats which seem to support such nonsense are self-evidently partial seems also not to bother people. maybe it's too much work to think about it, and much easier to simply combine "illegal alien" with the illusion that the united states is so fabulous that everyone on earth wants to come in and stay in, and will set up shop on your lawn unless you ward them off with one of your many many guns. the fact that this is nothing more than a narcisstic circle jerk is not fun. being paranoid is fun. its the amurican way these days. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-09-2007, 03:15 PM	#26 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Immigrant work generates positive national income because their work is more productive (same work for less pay). Because of their lack of training due to poor economies and education in their home countries so they take the shitty jobs. How many white people do you suppose pick grapes in the Visalia area of California? You can find good work for low pay in agriculture, landscaping, construction, and restaurants because of them. Honestly? I hope the anti-immigrant people succeed and have to pay $7 for an apple and $30 for a bag of raisins just so they understand how they benefited from the work of migrants.

11-09-2007, 03:27 PM	#27 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Where does the illegal's don't pay taxes come from? That is utter BS. Some of them don't but then again some citizens don't pay taxes either. Tell me how does an illegal avoid paying sales tax, car taxes, gas taxes, etc? How about the illegals that use false SS numbers. They pay income tax and SS but don't file for a return...... They do pay taxes.... sure some work under the table and that is different. Perhaps if we gave them an easy way to pay taxes and not have to work under the table....

11-09-2007, 07:02 PM	#35 (permalink)
albania Psycho	Hmm, any ideas that legislators and Latino immigrants would agree to… hmm: Amnesty for some and miniature American flags for others.

11-09-2007, 11:50 PM	#36 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	There are places in the midwest where schools are taught in German..... ohh no how could they!!