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Old 10-14-2007, 05:45 PM   #1 (permalink)
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If an American Soldier asks, "What Are We Fighting For", How Would You Answer?

I read this...and it struck me how far gone O'Reilly and supporters of Bush's security policies and "Global War on Terror" really are.....

Quote:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301152,00.html

....John Edwards has no chance to become president because he's simply too far-left for most Americans, but the positions he holds are now acceptable to millions of voters and to much of the mainstream media. Let's run them down.....

....So just talking about your personal security, would you support President John Edwards? <h3>Remember, no coerced interrogation, civilian lawyers in courts for captured overseas terrorists, no branding the Iranian guards terrorists, and no phone surveillance without a specific warrant.

"Talking Points" believes most Americans reject that foolishness....</h3>
With all the alterations to our "unalienable rights", and the torture policy that Bush denies is torture....just since Bush TOOK office, almost seven years ago, O'Reilly's comments and the articles of Frank Rich and Glenn Greenwald that follow....influence me to see very little that sets the US apart....as far as preservation and support for a set of rights and principles cherished enough for US soldiers to fight and die to maintain.

We civilians with occasional exceptions like Cindy Sheehan....won't even get up off our couches and out in to the streets to voice our objections to the illegality and deliberate deceit described in the following quote boxes:

Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/op...rssnyt&emc=rss
Op-Ed Columnist
The ‘Good Germans’ Among Us
By FRANK RICH
Published: October 14, 2007

“BUSH lies” doesn’t cut it anymore. It’s time to confront the darker reality that we are lying to ourselves. Ten days ago The Times unearthed yet another round of <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/washington/04interrogate.html">secret Department of Justice memos</a> countenancing torture. President Bush gave his <a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/10/20071005-2.html">standard response:</a> “This government does not torture people.” Of course, it all depends on what the meaning of “torture” is. The whole point of these memos is to repeatedly recalibrate the definition so Mr. Bush can keep pleading innocent.

By any legal standards except those rubber-stamped by Alberto Gonzales, we are practicing torture, and we have known we are doing so ever since photographic proof emerged from Abu Ghraib more than three years ago. As Andrew Sullivan, once a Bush cheerleader, <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/andrew_sullivan/article2602564.ece">observed last weekend</a> in The Sunday Times of London, America’s “enhanced interrogation” techniques have a grotesque provenance: “Verschärfte Vernehmung, enhanced or intensified interrogation, was the exact term innovated by the Gestapo to describe what became known as the ‘third degree.’ It left no marks. It included hypothermia, stress positions and long-time sleep deprivation.”

Still, the drill remains the same. The administration gives its alibi (Abu Ghraib was just a few bad apples). A few members of Congress squawk. The debate is labeled “politics.” We turn the page.

There has been scarcely more response to the similarly recurrent story of apparent war crimes committed by our contractors in Iraq. Call me cynical, but when Laura Bush <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-10-09-laura-bush_N.htm">spoke up last week</a> about the human rights atrocities in Burma, it seemed less an act of selfless humanitarianism than another administration maneuver to change the subject from its own abuses.

As Mrs. Bush spoke, two women, both Armenian Christians, <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/10/world/middleeast/10iraq.html">were gunned down in Baghdad</a> by contractors underwritten by American taxpayers. On this matter, the White House has been silent. That incident followed the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/world/middleeast/18iraq.html">Sept. 16 massacre</a> in Baghdad’s Nisour Square, where 17 Iraqis were killed by security forces from Blackwater USA, which had <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/washington/02blackwater.html">already been implicated</a> in nearly 200 other shooting incidents since 2005. There has been no accountability. The State Department, Blackwater’s sugar daddy for most of its <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/25/AR2007092502675.html">billion dollars in contracts</a>, won’t even <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/world/middleeast/11blackwater.html">share its investigative findings</a> with the United States military and the Iraqi government, both of which have <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/11/AR2007101101030.html">deemed the killings criminal</a>.

The gunmen who mowed down the two Christian women worked for a Dubai-based company managed by Australians, registered in Singapore and enlisted as a subcontractor by an American contractor headquartered in North Carolina. This is a plot out of “Syriana” by way of “Chinatown.” There will be no trial. We will never find out what happened. A new bill <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/04/AR2007100400282.html">passed by the House</a> to regulate contractor behavior will have little effect, even if it becomes law in its current form.

We can continue to blame the Bush administration for the horrors of Iraq — and should. Paul Bremer, our post-invasion viceroy and the <a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/12/20041214-3.html">recipient</a> of a Presidential Medal of Freedom for his efforts, <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/world/middleeast/11legal.html">issued the order</a> that allows contractors to elude Iraqi law, a folly second only to his disbanding of the Iraqi Army. But we must also examine our own responsibility for the hideous acts committed in our name in a war where we have now fought longer than we did in the one that put Verschärfte Vernehmung on the map.

I have always maintained that the American public was the least culpable of the players during the run-up to Iraq. The war was sold by a brilliant and fear-fueled White House propaganda campaign designed to stampede a nation still shellshocked by 9/11. Both Congress and the press — the powerful institutions that should have provided the checks, balances and due diligence of the administration’s case — failed to do their job. Had they done so, more Americans might have raised more objections. This perfect storm of democratic failure began at the top.

As the war has dragged on,<h3> it is hard to give Americans en masse a pass. We are too slow to notice, let alone protest, the calamities that have followed the </h3>
original sin......   click to show 

“We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture,” said Henry Kolm, 90, an M.I.T. physicist whose interrogation of Rudolf Hess, Hitler’s deputy, took place over a chessboard. George Frenkel, 87, recalled that he “never laid hands on anyone” in his many interrogations, adding,<h3> “I’m proud to say I never compromised my humanity.”

Our humanity has been compromised by those who use Gestapo tactics in our war. The longer we stand idly by while they do so, the more we resemble those “good Germans” who professed ignorance of their own Gestapo.</h3> It’s up to us to wake up our somnambulant Congress to challenge administration policy every day. Let the war’s last supporters filibuster all night if they want to. There is nothing left to lose except whatever remains of our country’s good name.
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101202485.html
Former CEO Says U.S. Punished Phone Firm
Qwest Feared NSA Plan Was Illegal, Filing Says

By Ellen Nakashima and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, October 13, 2007; Page A01

A former Qwest Communications International executive, appealing a conviction for insider trading, has alleged that the government withdrew opportunities for contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars after Qwest refused to participate in an unidentified National Security Agency program that the company thought might be illegal.

Former chief executive Joseph P. Nacchio, convicted in April of 19 counts of insider trading, said the NSA approached Qwest more than six months before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, according to court documents unsealed in Denver this week.

Details about the alleged NSA program have been redacted from the documents, but Nacchio's lawyer said last year that the NSA had approached the company about participating in a warrantless surveillance program to gather information about Americans' phone records.

In the court filings disclosed this week, Nacchio suggests that Qwest's refusal to take part in that program led the government to cancel a separate, lucrative contract with the NSA in retribution.....
Quote:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ews/klein.html
<i>Klein worked for more than 20 years as a technician at AT&T. Here he tells the story of how he inadvertently discovered that the whole flow of Internet traffic in several AT&T operations centers was being regularly diverted to the National Security Agency (NSA). Klein is a witness in a lawsuit filed against AT&T by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), which alleges AT&T illegally gave the NSA access to its networks. This is the edited transcript of an interview conducted on Jan. 9, 2007.</i>

......So this data flow meant that they were getting not only AT&T customers' data flow; they were getting everybody else's data flow, whoever else might happen to be communicating into the AT&T network from other networks. So it was turning out to be like a large chunk of the network, of the Internet.

Did you see that in the documents? Did the documents show that in the designs?

You can see that in the document. ... It names the circuit IDs; it names the companies they belong to; and it shows the cut date. And they were all in February, when they were cut into the splitter.

February 2003?

February 2003. Then I was looking at the equipment list. All these three documents were obviously all part of the same project, which involved cutting this splitter cabinet in. I looked at the main one, which is called Study Group 3, San Francisco, kind of an innocent-sounding name. What are they studying?

On the equipment list were standard things ... like Juniper routers and Sun servers, which are very common, high-quality equipment, and Sun storage equipment to store data. And there was a whole list there.

But then there was one thing that was odd, because I didn't recognize it. It was not part of normal, day-to-day telecommunications equipment that I was familiar with in years of my work, and that was a Narus STA 6400. STA stands for Semantic Traffic Analyzer. I'd never heard of this, so I started doing a little Google research to find out what this is about; what's a Semantic Traffic Analyzer? And so I find, after doing some Googling, that it's not only designed for high-speed sifting through high-speed volumes of data, looking for something according to various program algorithms, something you'd think would be perfect for a spy agency.

Turns out it was perfect for a spy agency, and they were already using it and boasting about it. I found, for instance, there was a conference in 2003 in McLean, Va., whose agenda was posted on the Internet. I'm sure you know McLean, Va., is the hometown of the CIA. ... The sponsor of the show was Narus, and they posted the agenda for this computer show, which was semi-public, and everybody was there, from the phone companies like AT&T and Verizon to the intelligence agencies like the DEA [Drug Enforcement Administration] and the FBI and local police agencies and the FCC [Federal Communications Commission]. I have to assume the NSA was there, although they didn't list themselves. But one of the guys on the agenda was William Crowell. William Crowell was the former deputy director of the NSA. He was on one of the forum lists as a speaker, along with the founder of Narus and a whole bunch of them.

So when I saw all that, it all clicked together to me: "Oh, that's what they're doing. This is a spy apparatus. I'm not just imagining things." ...

When you spotted this, you'd been in the room; you've seen the splitter; you've now got the documents; you've seen the Narus; you've gone to the Internet; you've seen what this technology show is about. What is it you think is going on here? What's your reaction?

My reaction -- that's why I practically fell out of my chair -- was that from all the connections I saw, they were basically sweeping up, vacuum-cleaning the Internet through all the data, sweeping it all into this secret room. ... It's the sort of thing that very intrusive, repressive governments would do, finding out about everybody's personal data without a warrant. I knew right away that this was illegal and unconstitutional, and yet they were doing it.

So I was not only angry about it; I was also scared, because I knew this authorization came from very high up -- not only high up in AT&T, but high up in the government. So I was in a bit of a quandary as to what to do about it, but I thought this should be halted.........
Quote:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...law/index.html
Sunday October 14, 2007 06:09 EST
The Beltway Establishment's contempt for the rule of law

The Washington Post's Editorial Page, in the establishment-defending form of Fred Hiatt, <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/13/AR2007101301069.html">today became</a> but the latest Beltway appendage <h3>to urge the enactment of a special law providing amnesty to our nation's poor, put-upon, lawbreaking telecoms:</h3>

<i>There is one major area of disagreement between the administration and House Democrats where we think the administration has the better of the argument: the question of whether telecommunications companies that provided information to the government without court orders should be given retroactive immunity from being sued. House Democrats are understandably reluctant to grant that wholesale protection without understanding exactly what conduct they are shielding, and the administration has balked at providing such information. But the telecommunications providers seem to us to have been acting as patriotic corporate citizens in a difficult and uncharted environment.</i>.....

.....Further leave to the side the fact that, as Hiatt's <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/12/AR2007101202485.html">own newspaper just reported yesterday</a>, the desire for warrantless eavesdropping capabilities seemed to be on the Bush agenda well before 9/11.

And finally ignore the fact that Hiatt is defending the telecom's good faith even though, as he implicitly acknowledges, he has no idea what they actually did, because it is all still Top Secret and we are barred from knowing what happened here. For all those reasons, Hiatt's claim on behalf of the telecoms that they broke the law for "patriotic" reasons is so frivolous as to insult the intelligence of his readers, but -- more importantly -- it is also completely irrelevant. .....

........ By definition, the "rule of law" does not exist if government officials and entities with influential Beltway lobbyists can run around breaking the law whenever they decide that there are good reasons for doing so. The bedrock principle of the "rule of law" is that the law applies equally to everyone, even to those who occupy Important Positions in Fred Hiatt's social, economic and political circles and who therefore act with the most elevated of motives.

In <a href="http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19980301faessay1377/thomas-carothers/the-rule-of-law-revival.html">a 1998 essay in Foreign Affairs</a> entitled "The Rule of Law Revival," Thomas Carothers of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace wrote optimistically that the "rule of law" has now become the centerpiece, the prime consensus, for most international relations and has been recognized as the linchpin for third-world countries developing into functioning democracies. Here is how he defined the basic principles of "the rule of law":

LEGAL BEDROCK

THE RULE of law can be defined as <h3>a system in which the laws are public knowledge, are clear in meaning, and apply equally to everyone.</h3> They enshrine and uphold the political and civil liberties that have gained status as universal human rights over the last half-century. . . . Perhaps most important, the government is embedded in a comprehensive legal framework, <h3>its officials accept that the law will be applied to their own conduct, and the government seeks to be law-abiding.

What is happening now in Washington is -- in every respect -- the exact opposite of this.</h3>....

.......And now, some of our country's richest, largest, most powerful and most well-connected corporations were caught breaking laws that have been in place for decades, such as Section 222 of the Communications Act of 1934, which provides that "[e]very telecommunications carrier has a duty to protect the confidentiality of proprietary information of . . . customers." 18 U.S.C. 2511 makes warrantless eavesdropping a felony; 18 U.S.C. 2702 requires that any "entity providing an electronic communication service to the public shall not knowingly divulge to any person or entity the contents of a communication" without a court order; and 18 U.S.C. 2520 provides for civil damages for any violations.

Here, the Government will not prosecute telecoms for breaking the law, because the government itself conspired in that lawbreaking. Thus, public interest groups and private citizens, including the telecoms' own customers, are attempting to hold them accountable for their lawbreaking by <a href="http://www.epic.org/privacy/hepting/">suing them in courts of law</a>.

In response, these corporations are using their vast resources to give money to key lawmakers and pay huge lobbying fees to <a href="http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/09/22/telecom_immunity/">politically well-connected former government officials</a> to pressure the Congress <h3>to write a new law that has no purpose other than to declare that they are immune from accountability for their lawbreaking. They're conniving, literally, to be specially exempted from the rule of law.</h3> .....

..... insisting that while the poor irrelevant souls who buy and sell drugs near the corners of their offices are real criminals and those people belong in prison, our nation's telecoms and other high officials, when they get caught breaking the law, should have special laws written decreeing that they are immune from all consequences.

This has become the norm for the Beltway. It is exactly what happened when poor, persecuted Lewis Libby was so unfairly subjected to a mean criminal trial and the possibility of prison -- just because he "technically" committed some felonies. .......

...... That is how a country that lives under the "rule of law" functions -- whether someone is found to have acted illegally is determined by a court of law, not neatly resolved after the fact with special amnesty laws passed by Congress that they buy. <h3>Here is what Carothers identified as the most "crucial" step for third-world countries to take</h3> in order to develop a healthy "rule-of-law" culture:

Type three reforms aim at the deeper goal of increasing government's compliance with law. A key step is achieving genuine judicial independence. . . . But the most crucial changes lie elsewhere. <h3>Above all, government officials must refrain from interfering with judicial decision-making and accept the judiciary as an independent authority.</h3>

The corruption and sleaze here is so transparent and extreme. We're just sitting by watching as telecoms right in front of our faces purchase from government officials the right to be exempt from lawsuits currently pending in our court system. Government officials, more or less on a bipartisan basis, are about to intervene in these lawsuits and prevent them from proceeding to a determination of whether telcoms violated numerous, long-standing laws........

....By definition, our Beltway establishment does not believe in the rule of law -- at least not for them. They are creating a completely segregated, two-track system where high Beltway officials and their corporate enablers arrogate unto themselves the power to decide when they can break the law. They are thus literally exempt from our laws, even our criminal laws, while increasingly harsh, merciless, and inflexible punishments are doled out for the poorest and least connected criminals -- who receive no consideration of any kind, let alone presidential commutations or special laws written for them by Congress retroactively rendering legal their patently criminal behavior.....
...<b>I would have to tell any US soldier who asked me what he was fighting for...that I don't know how to answer the question....the elected officials and most of the US populace don't stand for any principle...or cherish any right...enough to defend it.... that sets the country apart from all others, and the indifference to the idea of honoring treaties....like the Geneva Conventions....setting an example...among nations....and for elected officials....actually honoring the oath they took "to protect and defend the constitution of the United States".... it all makes me suspect that our soldiers....fighting for "our country", in any foreign land...would be dying to uphold....nothing....</b>
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Old 10-14-2007, 05:46 PM   #2 (permalink)
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SGT Crompsin says:

"I fight for the guy to my left and my right... the only other humans who know how it feels to do the dumb shit that we do."

When you get on the ground? The world back home doesn't matter. Nothing matters. Your wife, your kids, your house, your "other" life? Doesn't matter.

You only think about keeping your guys revved up, how much ammo and water you have left, and if your POS radio is going to crap out on you or not.
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Last edited by Plan9; 10-14-2007 at 05:48 PM..
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Old 10-14-2007, 05:51 PM   #3 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Soldiers are fighting for a lot of their own perceived reasons, but they are mainly the private fighting force of the super rich. It's a shame because as someone who knows more than a few soldiers, they are very brave and believe that they're doing the right thing. Their heart is in the right place, and they've had all the history lessons on WWII, the last real war, and they're confused, no unlike I'd imagine those who fought in Vietnam were.
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I was there because of rich people, but I sure as fuck wasn't fighting for them.

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"You should not drink... and bake."

Last edited by Plan9; 10-14-2007 at 06:12 PM..
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:12 PM   #5 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
I was there because of rich people, but I sure as fuck wasn't fighting for them.
Who were you fighting for? You get orders from your CO, he gets his orders from someone, who gets his orders from someone that eventually finds it's way back to the mission, and the mission is provided by the old rich people.

I recognize that you fought with people and you wanted you and your buddies to stay alive, but the reason you were in the desert wasn't originally to help your fellow soldiers.
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
The between-the-lines message:

Big difference between orders and fighting.

I got op-ords for all sorts of stupid shit.

Never once involved an order to engage anybody.

The GWOT is a misnomer. This isn't a war.

Like you said... WWII was the last real war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I recognize that you fought with people and you wanted you and your buddies to stay alive, but the reason you were in the desert wasn't originally to help your fellow soldiers.
Officers make plans. NCOs carry out officer plans. Soldiers follow NCO direction.

The "reason" I was in the desert? Carry out officer plans, not kill people.
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Last edited by Plan9; 10-14-2007 at 06:21 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:47 PM   #7 (permalink)
peekaboo
 
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Location: on the back, bitch
People join the military for any number of reasons: patriotism, career or education opportunities, sense of duty, legacy(dad, grandad, uncle were military)....
Once in, one is not given much choice as to where to go-you're military property, 24/7. You're paid to do a job, you do it.
In the past year, I have attended at least 10 funerals for KIA. Whether they believed they were where they were for a 'good purpose' is irrelevant. Their mothers lost a child, wives lost a husband, babies lost a parent.
Now my nephew will be landing in the sandbox probably in January; my friend's son is there now. It doesn't matter why. It's their job. We wish it wasn't, so we post dumb questions like this....
I prefer to just say "Thank You".
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
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What does your son tell you host?

If I recall he was in the service.
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngdawg
People join the military for any number of reasons: patriotism, career or education opportunities, sense of duty, legacy(dad, grandad, uncle were military)....
Once in, one is not given much choice as to where to go-you're military property, 24/7. You're paid to do a job, you do it.
In the past year, I have attended at least 10 funerals for KIA. Whether they believed they were where they were for a 'good purpose' is irrelevant. Their mothers lost a child, wives lost a husband, babies lost a parent.
Now my nephew will be landing in the sandbox probably in January; my friend's son is there now. <h3>It doesn't matter why. It's their job. We wish it wasn't, so we post dumb questions like this....
I prefer to just say "Thank You".</h3>
...and I prefer to repost Bill O'Reilly's comments from this thread's OP....and ask again....What The "EFF" are our "defense forces"...DEFENDING??? WHAT VALUES...RIGHTS...PRINCIPLES...BELIEFS....DOES THE USA HAVE REMAINING..THAT ARE EFFING WORTH FIGHTING...or DYING TO PRESERVE????
....
Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Reilly
So just talking about your personal security, would you support President John Edwards?
Remember, no coerced interrogation, civilian lawyers in courts for captured overseas terrorists, no branding the Iranian guards terrorists, and no phone surveillance without a specific warrant.

"Talking Points" believes most Americans reject that foolishness.......
Here is a quick description of what the following "stuff", indicates....First....it took seventeen years....from 1978 until 1995 for new housing starts in the US to return to 1978 levels.... 1,226,000 housing starts per year.

In the second quote box from the bottom, an excerpt from a current article:
Quote:
.....
Housing starts fell 3.6 percent to an annual rate of 1.285 million.......
<h3>...Soooo, the number of current housing starts is now....only at a level that is 59,000 more units bult annually (that's only an average of 1180 houses per state...) than the peak rate....in the US, 29 years ago.....</h3>
Quote:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C0A963958260
Brisk Pace In Building Of Homes

By ROBERT D. HERSHEY JR.,
Published: January 21, 1995

....In single-family homes, December construction was at an annual pace of 1,226,000, a 2.8 percent rise that lifted the overall 1994 gain to 6 percent. At 1,195,600 homes, the yearly total was the highest since 1978.....
<h3>The last major housing slump lasted 17 years.....</h3>but are government, the Fed, Treasury, SEC....are ignoring all of that....they are part of a "system" that, two years ago, passed personal bankruptcy "reform" that made it much more difficult for Americans to declare bankruptcy and receive protection from repayment of debt, even in the case of debt triggered by sudden medical care expenses..

Now, instead of requiring large banks, hedge funds that only the rich may invest in....per acts of congress.....to SELL, or mark-to-market, financial investments backed by pools of mortgage loans or pools of other loans...securitized into bonds and sold by the banks and brokerages to other banks, hedge funds, mutual funds, pension funds, and to other investors..<h3>....at current market prices....</h3>...i.e. sell at the "going rate"....the rate that you or I would have to sell for...on any given day, when we decided, or needed to sell a financial asset, these government agencies have been convinced by the wealthiest investors and our biggest banks, to let them borrow agains these bonds and MBS at artifically high prices, and to risk the solvency of the banks themselves by the Fed allowing them to lend more of the bank's reserves to the banks' brokerage affiliates, than regulations designed to protect the deposits of the public, allow !

<h3>Ironically, if government agencies had not interfered by propping up wealthy investors losing investments, the stock market indexes would be lower and more stable, and the mortgaged backed securities could have been sold at much higher prices than the current REAL market prices are, now. THE POINT???? The Fed and US Treadury are supporting (LEADING??) a scheme to spread the risks and the losses that only the big banks and wealthy investors were holding, earlier this year....onto ALL OF US!!!</h3>

The decline in housing valuations has only just begun....in the last decline, it took new housing starts, 17 years to regain the old peak annual rate. It helps no prospective home buyer or current home owner in financial distress to buy or to keep a residential property, with a loan obliglation in an amount at or near current prices....since those prices will almost certainly fall, dramatically....yet....that is just what the POTUS, the Fed, and most in congress are trying to do....

All of this serves to raise the costs of those of us with modest assets, to the gain of those who made huge profits securitizing mortgage debt and lending money to unqualified applicants to provide ever more liquidity to drive up housing prices and the profit streams of banks, brokers, lenders, builders, realtors, and fortune 500 corporations....<h3>If they are successful, they will collude to keep the valuations of stocks, residential properties, and loans securitized into bonds, high enough for them to transfer ownership of all of this artificially tweaked crap, from THEM to the rest of us.....</h3>

<h2>This is the game that they elite play...and it is not worth fighting for!</h2>

But it is worth thinking about...writing about....protesting about...exposing...sabotaging.....ENDING !!!!!!!!!!!


Quote:
http://www.forbes.com/business/2007/...3citicorp.html
Banks And U.S. Treasury Discuss $100 Billion Support Fund
Forbes.com staff 10.13.07, 8:59 AM ET

Leading U.S. banks have reportedly been meeting with U.S. Treasury officials about creating an up-to-$100-billion fund to stave off the danger that there could be a fire sale of shaky mortgage-backed securities, collateralized debt obligations and other distressed assets following the recent global credit crunch.

Such a fire sale could force big banks and hedge funds to write off or write down similar assets, setting off a second wave of the credit crunch that could flood into the broader economy.

The talks represent the latest official effort to restore liquidity to credit markets. In August, the Federal Reserve cut interest rates. Earlier this month, Fed officials said while there are signs of improvement, some markets remain under stress.

Citicorp, J.P. Morgan Chase, Bank of America, Goldman Sachs and HSBC are among the banks taking part in the series of discussions that have been held over the past two or three weeks at the Treasury Department in Washington, D.C., according to published reports.

The focus of the fund would be structured investment vehicles, off-balance sheet funds created by banks and which issue short-term debt such as commercial paper to acquire and finance specific longer-term assets, recently subprime mortgage-backed securities and similar assets. They are typically bought by institutional investors seeking to boost their returns without raising their credit risk.

SIVs hold $320 billion of assets worldwide, down from $395 billion in July, according to Moody's Investor Services. At their peak they accounted for more than a third of the asset-backed commercial paper market. Many SIVs had trouble rolling over their short-term debt when the credit crunch struck in July as losses in securities linked to subprime mortgages started to spread, leading to the $75 billion sell-off.

Citicorp, which invented the SIV in the 1980s, has seven such funds with $100 billion in assets. It has warned shareholders that third-quarter profits would fall 60% thanks to $5.9 billion in charges and losses from the late-summer market rout and which has led to a shake-up at the bank's top management. (See "Shake-Up At Citicorp.")

Reports say that under the plan being discussed the bank would create a superSIV conduit, backed by the other participating banks and to act as a buyer of last resort.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...QnmRI&refer=us
Citigroup, Bank of America Lead Banks Creating Fund (Update2)

By Mark Pittman and Elizabeth Hester
More Photos/Details

Oct. 14 (Bloomberg) -- Citigroup Inc., Bank of America Corp. and JPMorgan Chase & Co. will announce as soon as tomorrow that they are establishing a fund of about $80 billion aimed at reviving the asset-backed commercial paper market, said people familiar with the plan.

The fund, to which other firms will probably contribute, will buy some assets from structured investment vehicles, or SIVs, the people said. SIVs are units set up by banks, hedge funds and other investors to finance purchases of securities, including corporate bonds and mortgage debt.

The Treasury Department encouraged the banks to work together, and it jump-started the talks with a meeting of Wall Street executives in Washington on Sept. 16, said a person with knowledge of the deliberations. Robert Steel, the Treasury's top domestic finance official, brought the lenders together and prodded the competitors to keep working through the following weeks. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, a former chief executive officer of Goldman Sachs Group Inc., also made calls.

``Paulson definitely has the cachet to bring everyone to the table, because of his long experience on Wall Street,'' said Joe Mason, associate professor of business at Drexel University in Philadelphia and a former financial economist at the Treasury's Office of the Comptroller of the Currency.

The fund would help SIVs, which own $320 billion of assets, <h3>avoid selling their holdings at fire-sale prices, further roiling the credit markets.</h3> The sudden increase in borrowing costs for companies and consumers in August threatens to worsen a housing recession that has slowed the pace of economic growth.
Quote:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/24/maga...ion=2007082417
....August 24 2007: 5:09 PM EDT

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- In a clear sign that the credit crunch is still affecting the nation's largest financial institutions, the Federal Reserve agreed this week to bend key banking regulations to help out Citigroup (Charts, Fortune 500) and Bank of America (Charts, Fortune 500), according to documents posted Friday on the Fed's web site.

The Aug. 20 letters from the Fed to Citigroup and Bank of America state that the Fed, which regulates large parts of the U.S. financial system, has agreed to exempt both banks from rules that effectively limit the amount of lending that their federally-insured banks can do with their brokerage affiliates. The exemption, which is temporary, means, for example, that Citigroup's Citibank entity can substantially increase funding to Citigroup Global Markets, its brokerage subsidiary. Citigroup and Bank of America requested the exemptions, according to the letters, to provide liquidity to those holding mortgage loans, mortgage-backed securities, and other securities......

....On Wednesday, Citibank and Bank of America said that they and two other banks accessed $500 million in 30-day financing at the discount window. A Citigroup spokesperson declined to comment. Bank of America dismissed the notion that Banc of America Securities is not well positioned to fund operations without help from the federally insured bank. "This is just a technicality to allow us to use our regular channels of business with funds from the Fed's discount window," says Bob Stickler, spokesperson for Bank of America. "We have no current plans to use the discount window beyond the $500 million announced earlier this week."

There is a good chance that other large banks, like J.P. Morgan (Charts, Fortune 500), have been granted similar exemptions. The Federal Reserve and J.P. Morgan didn't immediately comment.

<h3>The regulations in question effectively limit a bank's funding exposure to an affiliate to 10% of the bank's capital. But the Fed has allowed Citibank and Bank of America to blow through that level. Citigroup and Bank of America are able to lend up to $25 billion apiece under this exemption, according to the Fed. If Citibank used the full amount, "that represents about 30% of Citibank's total regulatory capital, which is no small exemption,"</h3> says Charlie Peabody, banks analyst at Portales Partners.

The Fed says that it made the exemption in the public interest, because it allows Citibank to get liquidity to the brokerage in "the most rapid and cost-effective manner possible."

So, how serious is this rule-bending? Very. One of the central tenets of banking regulation is that banks with federally insured deposits should never be over-exposed to brokerage subsidiaries; indeed, for decades financial institutions were legally required to keep the two units completely separate. This move by the Fed eats away at the principle.

Sure, the temporary nature of the move makes it look slightly less serious, but the Fed didn't give a date in the letter for when this exemption will end. In addition, the sheer size of the potential lending capacity at Citigroup and Bank of America - $25 billion each - is a cause for unease.

Indeed, this move to exempt Citigroup casts a whole new light on the discount window borrowing that was revealed earlier this week. At the time, the gloss put on the discount window advances was that they were orderly and almost symbolic in nature. But if that were the case, why the need to use these exemptions to rush the funds to the brokerages?
Subprime may be hitting credit cards, too

Expect the discount window borrowings to become a key part of the Fed's recovery strategy for the financial system. The Fed's exemption will almost certainly force its regulatory arm to sharpen its oversight of banks' balance sheets, which means banks will almost certainly have to mark down asset values to appropriate levels a lot faster now. That's because there is no way that the Fed is going to allow easier funding to lead to a further propping up of asset prices.

Don't forget: The Federal Reserve is in crisis management at the moment. However, it doesn't want to show any signs of panic. That means no rushed cuts in interest rates. It also means that it wants banks to quickly take the big charges that will inevitably come from holding toxic debt securities. And it will do all it can behind the scenes to work with the banks to help them get through this upheaval. But waiving one of the most important banking regulations can only add nervousness to the market. And that's what the Fed did Monday in these disturbing letters to the nation's two largest banks. Top of page....
Quote:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/09/news...ion=2007100914
Minutes from the Federal Reserve meeting
Following are the minutes from the Federal Reserve meeting held September 18.
October 9 2007: 2:29 PM EDT

....On August 10, the Federal Reserve issued a statement announcing that it was providing liquidity to facilitate the orderly functioning of financial markets. The Federal Reserve indicated that it would provide reserves as necessary through open market operations to promote trading in the federal funds market at rates close to the target rate of 5-1/4 percent. The Federal Reserve also noted that the discount window was available as a source of funding.

On August 17, the FOMC issued a statement noting that financial market conditions had deteriorated and that tighter credit conditions and increased uncertainty had the potential to restrain economic growth going forward. The FOMC judged that the downside risks to growth had increased appreciably, indicated that it was monitoring the situation, and stated that it was prepared to act as needed to mitigate the adverse effects on the economy arising from the disruptions in financial markets.

Simultaneously, the Federal Reserve Board announced that, to promote the restoration of orderly conditions in financial markets, it had approved a 50 basis point reduction in the primary credit rate to 5-3/4 percent.

The Board also announced a change to the Reserve Banks' usual practices to allow the provision of term financing for as long as thirty days, renewable by the borrower. <h3>In addition, the Board noted that the Federal Reserve would continue to accept a broad range of collateral for discount window loans, including home mortgages and related assets, while maintaining existing collateral margins.</h3>

On August 21, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York announced some temporary changes to the terms and conditions of the SOMA securities lending program, including a reduction in the minimum fee. The effective federal funds rate was somewhat below the target rate for a time over the intermeeting period, as efforts to keep the funds rate near the target were hampered by technical factors and financial market volatility. In the days leading up to the FOMC meeting, however, the funds rate traded closer to the target.

Short-term financial markets came under pressure over the intermeeting period amid heightened investor unease about exposures to subprime mortgages and to structured credit products more generally.

Rates on asset-backed commercial paper and on low-rated unsecured commercial paper soared, and some issuers, particularly asset-backed commercial paper programs with investments in subprime mortgages, found it difficult to roll over maturing paper. These developments led several programs to draw on backup lines, exercise options to extend the maturity of outstanding paper, or even default. As a result, asset-backed commercial paper outstanding contracted substantially. ......
Quote:
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/2...ard.html#links
...Oh, remember our friend in the ABX? One of those things that has blown the shit out of the markets before...... How's this look?


Thirty-four? THIRTY FOUR CENTS ON THE DOLLAR?!

And "A" credit?

FIFTY FIVE CENTS? Remember, this recovered big on the rate cuts..... that didn't last long did it?

Something to think about....



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...Al8&refer=home
Subprime Delinquencies Accelerating, Moody's Says (Correct)

By Shannon D. Harrington and Mark Pittman

Oct. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Subprime mortgage bonds created in the first half of 2007 contain loans that are going delinquent at the fastest rate ever, according to Moody's Investors Service.

....ABX Indexes

Many of the loans that investors shunned in 2006 were able to be successfully securitized in 2007 because of the limited availability of new loans to purchase, according to Andrew Chow, who manages about $7 billion in asset-backed bonds and mortgage securities at SCM Advisors LLC in San Francisco.

``It's not surprising that the performance of that type of loan is in fact even worse than the average of 2006 because these are the loans that were rejected from those deals,'' Chow said.

Subprime mortgages are given to borrowers with poor credit or high debt. The rise in loan defaults and foreclosure followed a period of lax lending standards by the banks making the loans and little due diligence by investors buying the repackaged debt.

The perceived risk of owning subprime mortgage bonds created in the first half of 2007 rose today, according to traders of ABX indexes of credit-default swaps.

The ABX index linked to 20 securities from the first half and given the lowest rating of BBB- fell 2.5 percent to 36.67, the lowest since the index began trading in July, according to, Markit Group Inc., the index administrator. The index rated AA, the second-highest rating, fell 0.93 percent to 87, London-based Markit's composite prices show.

ABX contracts allow investors to speculate on or hedge against the risk the underlying securities aren't repaid as expected. .....
....Even as the Federal Reserve risks the solvency of the FDIC insurance on the bank deposits of average Americans, to protect the largest US banks by allowing them to lend up to 30 percent of their reserves (Instead of the ten percent cap that exists to lower risk to the FDIC deposti insurance fund...) to the largest banks own brokerage subsidiaries....and accepts the unmarketable (because they cannot be sold in the REAL markets....except at a large loss...) Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS) as collateral on loans from the Fed Discount Window, the Fed and US Treasury and SEC have propped up the stock market to the point that the DOW and S&P indexes are at artifical, record highs....

...<h3>...and back in the "real world":</h3>

Quote:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...anA&refer=home

Housing Starts May Drop to 12-Year Low: U.S. Economy Preview

By Shobhana Chandra

Oct. 14 (Bloomberg) -- Builders in the U.S. broke ground in September on the fewest houses in 12 years, giving the Federal Reserve reason to be more concerned about economic growth than inflation, government reports this week may show.

Housing starts fell 3.6 percent to an annual rate of 1.285 million, according to the median forecast of economists surveyed by Bloomberg News ahead of the Commerce Department's Oct. 17 report. Consumer prices rose 0.2 percent after dropping in August, Labor Department figures the same day may show.

Higher mortgage costs and stricter lending rules will further depress home sales, worsening the slump in residential construction that threatens to end the expansion. The Fed will lower interest rates again this year as the pall cast by housing outweighs the risk that inflation will accelerate, economists said.

``The next batch of housing data is likely to be extremely soft,'' said Joseph LaVorgna, chief U.S. economist at Deutsche Bank Securities in New York. ``The Fed's forward-looking approach makes it more inclined to cut rates.''

The construction report may show permits, an indicator of future building, dropped to a 1.29 million annual pace, also a 12-year low.

An Oct. 16 report will reinforce the view that the outlook for housing has dimmed. The National Association of Home Builders/Wells Fargo index of homebuilder sentiment probably dropped to a record low of 19 in September from 20 the prior month, according to the survey median. Figures lower than 50 mean most respondents view conditions as poor.

Builder Woes

Centex Corp., the fourth-largest U.S. homebuilder, said Oct. 12 it will take a $1 billion charge on property and will generate less cash from sales than forecast.

``These adjustments reflect the market's further deterioration over the quarter and the significant effects of the mortgage-market disruptions,'' Chief Executive Officer Timothy Eller said in a statement. ....
<h3>...anecdotally....no houses have sold in the South San Jose, CA market in the last 70 days:</h3>
Quote:
http://www.southsanjose.com/realtrend.php
.........new listingd ..sales
2006 / Oct ....448 .....272
2006 / Sep ....474 .....293
2006 / Aug ....562 .....371

2007 / Oct .... 156 .....0
2007 / Sep .... 382 ....0
2007 / Aug .....610 ....0
2007 / Jul .....560 ....57

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Old 10-14-2007, 07:48 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I wish I could give a longer response host, but my eyes are beginning to fail me after reading all day. I do agree, most Americans feel pretty much safe & secure in their day to day lives, even after 9/11 and a million 'terror alerts'......They're really not ready to do any of the hard work, sacrifice their time & money, possibly endanger their job, get out and make a real difference. They're content to wait for the next election & let their voice be heard then.....

Meanwhile more of our brave soldiers die, billions are poured into a war for oil in which the rich will only get richer, paid for with our tax dollars.....

I of course think that bush should have been impeached long ago, for various crimes.....take your pick. I have some pretty radical views when it comes to such things, way beyond liberal, all the way to.......better not say. The men in black (see pic above & below) will be at my door in seconds......
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:59 PM   #11 (permalink)
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(loads up M203 grenade launcher)

Take THAT, housing slump.

Yeah. YEAH. What he said.

...

'n stuff.
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:17 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Oh this is a spam thread, never mind.
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:23 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Spam is advertisements, einstein.
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:47 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Einstein says:

"Actually, SPAM luncheon meat is a canned precooked meat product made by the Hormel Foods Corporation. The labeled ingredients in the Classic variety of Spam are: chopped pork shoulder meat with ham meat added, salt, water, sugar, and sodium nitrite to help "keep its color". The product has become part of many jokes and urban legends about mystery meat, which has made it part of pop culture and folklore."
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:49 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Oh this is a spam thread, never mind.
...no, it's not a "spam thread"...it's a thread that documents the destruction of respect for the rule of law, by the highest government authorities, in less than a seven year period....and about the double standard....one set of consequences for those who commit crimes and who take financial risks.....for most of us....and an ARTIFICAL set of non-consequences....the purchased escape from any consequences at all...by the elite, at the expense of the rest of us.....

...and I've reduced my points and my "evidence", to a brevity that you and ngdawg can surely negotiate....if you are willing:

Quote:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301152,00.html

....John Edwards has no chance to become president because he's simply too far-left for most Americans, but the positions he holds are now acceptable to millions of voters and to much of the mainstream media. Let's run them down.....

....So just talking about your personal security, would you support President John Edwards?
Remember, no coerced interrogation, civilian lawyers in courts for captured overseas terrorists, no branding the Iranian guards terrorists, and no phone surveillance without a specific warrant.

"Talking Points" believes most Americans reject that foolishness....
Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/op...rssnyt&emc=rss


“We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture,” said Henry Kolm, 90, an M.I.T. physicist whose interrogation of Rudolf Hess, Hitler’s deputy, took place over a chessboard. George Frenkel, 87, recalled that he “never laid hands on anyone” in his many interrogations, adding,
“I’m proud to say I never compromised my humanity.”
Quote:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...law/index.html

THE RULE of law can be defined as
a system in which the laws are public knowledge, are clear in meaning, and apply equally to everyone.
They enshrine and uphold the political and civil liberties that have gained status as universal human rights over the last half-century. . . . Perhaps most important, the government is embedded in a comprehensive legal framework,
its officials accept that the law will be applied to their own conduct, and the government seeks to be law-abiding.

What is happening now in Washington is -- in every respect -- the exact opposite of this....
Quote:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...QnmRI&refer=us
....The Treasury Department encouraged the banks to work together, and it jump-started the talks with a meeting of Wall Street executives in Washington on Sept. 16, said a person with knowledge of the deliberations. Robert Steel, the Treasury's top domestic finance official, brought the lenders together and prodded the competitors to keep working through the following weeks. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, a former chief executive officer of Goldman Sachs Group Inc., also made calls.

``Paulson definitely has the cachet to bring everyone to the table, because of his long experience on Wall Street,'' said Joe Mason, associate professor of business at Drexel University in Philadelphia and a former financial economist at the Treasury's Office of the Comptroller of the Currency.

The fund would help SIVs, which own $320 billion of assets,
avoid selling their holdings at fire-sale prices, further roiling the credit markets....
Quote:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/24/maga...ion=2007082417

....There is a good chance that other large banks, like J.P. Morgan (Charts, Fortune 500), have been granted similar exemptions. The Federal Reserve and J.P. Morgan didn't immediately comment.

The regulations in question effectively limit a bank's funding exposure to an affiliate to 10% of the bank's capital. But the Fed has allowed Citibank and Bank of America to blow through that level. Citigroup and Bank of America are able to lend up to $25 billion apiece under this exemption, according to the Fed. If Citibank used the full amount, "that represents about 30% of Citibank's total regulatory capital, which is no small exemption,"
says Charlie Peabody, banks analyst at Portales Partners.

The Fed says that it made the exemption in the public interest, because it allows Citibank to get liquidity to the brokerage in "the most rapid and cost-effective manner possible."

So, how serious is this rule-bending? Very. One of the central tenets of banking regulation is that banks with federally insured deposits should never be over-exposed to brokerage subsidiaries; indeed, for decades financial institutions were legally required to keep the two units completely separate. This move by the Fed eats away at the principle.....
Ustwo...it's my stepson who is in uniform....and his latest deployment to a combat zone was recenlty pushed up by several weeks....he's "over there", now. Mercifully for him....he believes in all that this administration is doing, armed as he is with a strict Southern baptist doctrine and political view, and firm in his belief that the republican party and it's platform have his back...because he intends to be rich in the not too distant, future, too! I wonder how many other republicans "keep the faith" by convincing
themselves that their admission to the ranks of the elite is just around the corner, where the rules/challenges that apply to the rest of us...will soon not apply to them....once they attain admission.....

...and I never imgained living in a country where a TV commentator would broadcast with certainty, that a candidate who is against violating US Senate ratified Geneva convention defined crimes against humanity, conventional military and civilian court rules for criminal trials, fourth amendment constitutional rights protections, and the petty "baiting" of internal security apparatus of a foreign country....is unsuitable to be president of the US....but here we are.....
.
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Old 10-15-2007, 08:44 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Roy Zimmerman singing "Thanks for the Support" at the Throckmorton Theatre in Mill Valley back on 9/11/07. Not really my style of music, but the lyrics are hard hitting and relevant.
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Old 10-15-2007, 09:05 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I think that if america was an office chair, it would be one which instead of having a back had a ribboned bumper sticker that said, "I support good posture."
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Old 10-15-2007, 09:55 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Fourteen posts now...besides my three..and no one has posted a description of what, in the US transformed by the decisions of the political majority, between 2001 and 2007..is worth the efforts of our soldiers to preserve or maintain..... I wonder whether most US soldiers would choose to fight to preserve the ideals of John Edwards...or of Bill O'Reilly?

Many enlisted in the military in the year following 9/11...before the invasion of Iraq. I understand that, once deployed, soldiers fight for the guys on either side of them....but what ideals would motivate someone to enlist in the US military, today? If you were a military recruiter, aside from benefits, how would you persuade a young person to sign up?
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Old 10-15-2007, 10:10 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Obviously none of the horrible political and military decisions between 2001 and now are worth the efforts of the troops. Their job is to protect this country, something honorable and laudable, not to be the private army of the rich and powerful to their own selfish and ultimately destructive ends.

Had I been born in the 1920s, I would have volunteered for WWII in a heartbeat. This mess in 2007? I beg people not to sign up.
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Old 10-15-2007, 10:40 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I enlisted in the US Army for purely selfish reasons.

I wanted to harden myself, test myself, push myself.

You'll find most enlisted members joined up for money / adventure.

I wasn't thinking about politics or the housing market when I signed.
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Old 10-20-2007, 05:31 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
(loads up M203 grenade launcher)

Take THAT, housing slump.

Yeah. YEAH. What he said.

...

'n stuff.
I am with him ( as I break out my bmg50)

kill dem houses and those dam mortgage brokers that put deadbeats in them.

And my answer to those soldiers would be, you signed the motherfuckin contract now kill who your told.
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:14 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Erm... Who says this fighting is about ideals ?

Its about survival.

For the soldier in the field its his immediate survival.

For the country at large its the prevention of mass-destruction by zealots.

Principles and ideals don't enter into it - its the lefty-strawman 'how can you defend fighting for such fluffy nonsense as Freedoms ?'

Well when its freedom from death and freedom from persecution under a caliphate its not so fluffy no more.
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Old 10-26-2007, 09:56 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey2000
Erm... Who says this fighting is about ideals ?

Its about survival.

For the soldier in the field its his immediate survival.

For the country at large its the prevention of mass-destruction by zealots.

Principles and ideals don't enter into it - its the lefty-strawman 'how can you defend fighting for such fluffy nonsense as Freedoms ?'

Well when its freedom from death and freedom from persecution under a caliphate its not so fluffy no more.
For this to apply there would actually have to be a possibility that america would end up under a caliphate, which i imagine is something one of the dwindling number of people who still support this war might tell their kids to get them to eat their vegetables. "If you don't eat your broccoli we might end up living under shariah law."

The war for freedom from death has actually made death more likely, since, you know, it's been a great recruitment tool for your caliphalating bogeymen.

The war in iraq has nothing to do with survival. The only way the terrorists(who had nothing to do with iraq before we got there) could destroy america would be to trick us into believing that we need to destroy it ourselves.
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:21 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Whether we should have gone to war in the first place is immatterial, what matters is what we are doing now. We are currently trying to rebuild two broken countries who have a violent insurgency brewing. Other outside countries are leading their own unconventional warfare campaigns against the budding governments in Iraq and Afghanistan (and by extension, the US) and are not meeting entirely with failure. They are not doing this because they have Iraq or Afghanistans 'best interests' at heart.

I strongly object to warrantless wiretaps within our borders. Outside, anything goes.
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Old 10-26-2007, 12:52 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Hahaha, the people that "do the fighting" don't follow the original post points.

I am one of them.

...

US Army: So easy... a caveman can do it.
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Old 10-27-2007, 01:19 PM   #26 (permalink)
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What are they fighting for? If you're talking about the war in Iraq, my answer would be: "Israel, of course!"
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Old 10-28-2007, 05:32 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I'm sorry, but I don't see how pissing off the whole arab world even more helps Israels cause any.
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Old 10-28-2007, 09:16 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg700
I'm sorry, but I don't see how pissing off the whole arab world even more helps Israels cause any.
Replacing governments that are hostile to Israel and replacing them with "democratic" ones that aren't will certainly help Israel. That's why the "War On Terror" will most likely result in the eventual invasion of nearly every country in the Middle East.
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Old 10-28-2007, 03:08 PM   #29 (permalink)
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The roadmap to Middle East peace

I found this article entertaining and informative. No, America can't rely on Israel to solve the problems of the Middle East, Israel is already a huge part of the problem! It is SAUDI ARABIA - NOT IRAN - that needs to be dealt with...and pronto!

Quote:
This is my “Road Map to Middle East Peace”. For most of the last fifty years the Middle East has been the powder-keg of the world. Most of the world's violence, warfare and bloodshed has taken place on some important sand in the land of goat herders. Why has nothing worked? The reason is simple, the solution is not. Simply put, the people of the Middle East do not want peace. The Muslim world only understands death, despair and treachery and negotiating with a people who have nothing to give other than false assurances of cease-fires is a losing strategy.

I do believe that we have to identify the root of the problems in the Middle East. The first thing we have to overcome is Islam and the theocracies that use it as fuel to the flame of war. Iran is obviously the leading exporter of political hate in the region. I am of the opinion that Islam can be folded into the modern world but in order to do so we must ELIMINATE Islamic fundamentalism. We may think of Iran as the main enemy but that enmity stems from a primarily political standpoint. Iran is the biggest baddest piece of shit on the block. They are proud of their official intolerance and hatred for the Western world. So Iran is one problem without question. This nation's government MUST fall before anything of consequence can be accomplished in the region. But toppling the Iranian theocracy is only the tip of the iceberg, a darker and more secretive enemy of the West lurks under the guise of friendship and cooperation.

While toppling Iran and the Shia government is an important first step it does not eliminate Islamic fundamentalism. Sunni fundamentalism is actually more dangerous than its louder and more obnoxious bastard cousin, Shia fundamentalism. How you ask? Well Osama Bin Laden and his butt-fucking group are Sunnis. As much as we have learned to hate the Ayatollah in Iran at least we know the leader of that group is. Sunnis are everywhere and they have adapted to living the Western world, in fact, the vast majority of Muslims in Europe and the United States are Sunni. We know the birthplace of Shia Islam and the clowns that lead them but where does Sunni fundamentalism come from? The simple answer is Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of Islam. Its holiest cities and sites are in Mecca and Medina and the annual pilgrimage to Mecca is one of the basic rites of the religion. That being said the leading Islamic “schools” whose main mission is to spread hatred of anything not Islam are in Saudi Arabia. I feel like I need to explain this because Saudi Arabia is seen as an “ally” in the Middle East and while their government does pay lip service to support us they only do it because they know they have to. We protected them from Saddam and they know that without our intervention they would have been incorporated into Iraq. They are also natural enemies of Iran and they like to play both sides so that they can stay out of the crossfire. Of course, like I mentioned before, Osama and most of Al-Qaeda hail from Saudi Arabia. They are children of wealth with no mission in life so they naturally lean towards extremism to give their lives meaning.

Arabia is, without question, the most backwards nation in the Middle East and in the world as a whole. No, I am not talking about economically or technologically, I am referring to the fact that they do not have a formalized legal code. They are Wahhabists, an ultra-conservative Sunni sect that practices a religion that is rife with intolerable human rights violations. We all think of Iran being backwards and they are compared to us but Iranian women can vote and go out of their houses without headscarves. That is not the case in Saudi Arabia. The official government line is that all residents MUST be Muslim. That type of intolerance is incomprehensible in the modern world. Other faiths are officially banned from practicing their religion. In contrast, Iran protects three non-Muslim faiths and practitioners of those religions are given seats in the parliament. Women in Saudi Arabia cannot drive and are forced, most of the time by traveling militia types at stick point, to walk behind men. Movies and alcohol are officially illegal, in other words, Saudi Arabia is a complete cluster fuck and in terms of day to day life not significantly different than the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Ok, so what is worse than a place where women can be openly flogged and where legal code is decided by local religious leaders? Well I will tell you... a place where young men live with free cash as a result of their genealogy and are able to flog women and sit in extremist “schools”. That is Saudi Arabia in a nutshell. The economy of Saudi Arabia is in a free fall. The per capital income of the average Saudi has fallen from $25,000 in 1980 to $8,000 now due to explosive population growth. That economic decline is the largest ever seen in the history of the nation-state. This has led to an dramatic increase of unemployment, it is estimated that 60% of the under 30 demographic is unemployed.

We all know that young men with no jobs are trash, but men without jobs who are used to a life of privilege but are now forced to compete with millions of foreign nationals (who they are taught to hate in “school”) for work is an utter disaster. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a ticking time bomb and we are seeing some of the shrapnel now in the form of Osama Bin Goat-Rapist and his boys. Saudi Arabia, in its current state, is the biggest threat to worldwide Islamic reform. They openly support the spread of Islam and use the Western World’s money to fund mosques and madrassas worldwide. To make a very long story short, we are subsidizing terrorist playgrounds and training facilities. We must destroy the propped up government there and start from scratch. Will it be easy...hell no. But we must do it and here is how.

Leave it to me to solve arguably the world's biggest problem... here is my road map for lasting peace in the Middle East.

The first turn on my road map is to find any reasonable and secular groups of people who have something to gain from working with us. And no this cannot be the Israelis, they are at the core of the bloodshed. It is certainly not their fault but ultimately they are at the root of the problem. So let's look at our options for finding a nation or group who will support us and yet have some ability to reason with the fascists of the Middle East. Our traditional allies in the area (Israel and Kuwait) are the first nations to come to mind. Well, Israel is out for obvious reasons. Kuwait, while loyal, has no real power base and has nothing to gain from supporting us more strongly. They are simply oil barons with no real government or respect for democracy and secularism. So suffice to say we are starting at square one in terms of building a relationship with a group in the region.

The next nation that seems to be an option would be Turkey. They are, without question, the most modern and forward thinking Muslim nation. Turkey is, by regional standards, the most secular nation and is a member of NATO and a prospective EU member. The fact that they are so Westernized (in the eyes of the Muslim world) disqualifies them to be truly useful to our cause. Obviously Syria and Iran are not options so that leaves us with Egypt and Jordan. Egypt is a strange nation, economically viable, not oil dependent, and militarily useful to our cause. They are also skeptical of growing Iranian influence in the area. They have been the traditional power in the region so that is another positive. Hosni Mubarak seems to be a rational and reasonable man and Egypt is also a Sunni nation which makes them a traditional enemy of the Iranian theocracy.

Egypt is a changing nation. It has been a “republic” since 1952 but the Republic of Egypt has been led by a total of two men, Anwar Sadat and Hosni Mubarak. This may not seem very republican and it is not. Egypt, like all other Arab nations, is not familiar with true democracy. That being said in 2005, Mubarak did allow for regional elections and parties that are unpopular with the government have gained seats in the Parliament. We all know that once people have any voice at all they will continue to push for choices in their national leadership. Mubarak will be the last “elected monarch” of Egypt. Laws are being drafted now to limit a president to two seven year terms.

The economy of Egypt is unusual for the Middle East due to its relative low oil production. That means that they have had to develop an economic infrastructure that is more Western than most Arab nations. Billions of dollars of foreign money are being pumped into the nation's booming stock market and the economic integration into the rest of the world is well underway. In the geopolitical world, investment equals influence. Legislation that has made the tax code less progressive has modernized the economy and encouraged entrepreneurship and spending. In other words, Egypt is a land of relative opportunity in the Middle East. The growth of the middle class is the main driver of the economic and political changes that make Egypt a suitable political, economic and military ally.

Bringing Egypt in the fold of US allies will be difficult but not unreasonably so. They have officially been non-aligned nation since the dawn of the republic. That basically means they have taken sides to whoever helps them the most, and recently that has been the United States. The US sends 2.3 billion dollars of aid to Egypt annually and that does bring some indirect influence. To make them an ally I would suggest that we boost aid five fold to $10 billion. Much of this aid would be in the form of military equipment and training. Of course, Israel would take exception to this but Israel is, at the end of the day, a US backed nation that knows where its proverbial bread is buttered. What do we get out of Egypt for arming them and assisting them with complete modernization of the economy? The payback will be their military, the strongest in Africa and only eclipsed in the Middle East by Israel, will be the police force for a revamped Saudi nation. We would make assurances that Egyptian corporations would be in the forefront of the reconstruction of Saudi Arabia and that Egypt would have increased access to the Saudi oil fields.

Egypt is certainly a viable potential ally but we need another group who has unquestioned loyalty and owes a debt to the West that they could never pay. This group must be tough, flexible and most importantly relatively secular. It is also important that they have some payback to inflict on their oppressors. That group, of course, is the Kurds.

Kurds are an ethnic group whose total population is estimated to be in the range of 35-45 million. They are the largest ethnic group who does not have a nation-state. My road map calls for that to change. The Kurds not only deserve to have a nation to call their own but it is, more importantly, in our best interests to use our political and military might to bring the dream of a Kurdish nation to fruition.

Kurds, as a people, lack extremist Muslim theology. They are officially Muslim but it is generally a fact that they adhere to a mix of indigenous, Islamic and Judaic ideologies. This mix makes them less adherent to Islam and makes them somewhat outsiders surrounded by Islamic nations. They are like an oasis of free thought in a morass of fascism, hate and ignorance. They have a native culture, language and common bond much like the Jews do. In many ways, they are like the Jews. The Kurdish diaspora is worldwide and the birth of a Kurdish democracy would be a terrific public relations move in addition to being a stroke of genius.

The nation of Kurdistan's capital city would be Mosul in what is now Iraq. It would encompass most of northern Iraq and the northwest corner of Iran. The territory that would be included in the new nation is rich in oil. They would have the sixth largest proven oil reserves in the world and thus make them economically viable from the outset. The nation of Kurdistan would also be multi-ethnic which makes democracy the only choice for competent government.

By allowing the nation of Kurdistan to rise up amongst its neighbors we would gain a nearly limitless reservoir of goodwill and admiration. It is also critical to understand the Kurds have been brutally oppressed by Iraq, Iran, and Turkey. Saddam gassed them in the 80s and 90s, the Iranians ignore their presence and the Turks undermine them politically by labeling them terrorists in order to hang on to the province of Turkey that would unquestionably become part of Kurdistan. It is not a stretch to say that they are natural enemies of those three nations and it is likely that they would be willing to help us bring order to their land. We would establish consortiums with the Kurdish government to secure oil rights. It would also be fair for us to ask for a site for a permanent military base to protect our blood-soaked investment.

I know that many of you are incapable of reading an article over a couple pages long so this concludes Part I. Part I gives you, the reader, an idea of the political and diplomatic strategy it will take to make the Middle East a worthwhile place in the world. Come back for Part II of Arthur's Road Map. It will lay out the action plan behind this incredibly brilliant plan.
PART II

Quote:
In my last installment, I formulated a diplomatic and political strategy that will solve, once and for all, the world's biggest problem...The Middle East. As all you right minded conservatives know, a plan without a series of actions is merely words. For decades now, we have heard about roadmaps, ceasefires and the like but nothing has changed. Why? Because the powers that be have been unwilling to take ACTION. Peace agreements without the threat of overwhelming force are merely public relations stunts. A perfect example of this were the Oslo Accords. We saw our President (Clinton) doing his thing, smiling and laughing it up with infamous terrorist, Yasser Arafat. That spineless piece of shit knew that nothing good would come of this so-called agreement but he took the opportunity to bask in the sun as a peacemaker and in the process transformed Mr. Terrorist Arafat into a Nobel Peace Price winner.

Ten years later the crisis continues. The world has seen a full-scale war in Lebanon in response to Hezbollah's rocket attacks into Israel. We have suffered at the hands of terrorists ourselves with the destruction of our embassy in Tanzania, the bombing of the USS Cole and, of course, the attacks of 9/11 and the recent kidnapping and subsequent “gift” release of 15 British seamen by Iran. Two wars rage on in Iraq and Afghanistan, actions taken by a President who had seen enough of this peace charade. What have we learned? Unfortunately, most of the world has learned nothing. We now face a litany of problems; a nuclear Iran, a fragmented nation in Iraq, a weakened Israel and most importantly we face the growing consensus here and abroad that Western military supremacy is of little use in the Middle East. The world chooses to blame the crisis on the Israeli “occupation” of Palestine, our colonial past, Western exploitation of oil and the legacy of the Crusades. The excuses are endless and irrelevant. The time for action in the Middle East is now. Here is my action plan for lasting peace in the Middle East.

The first action to be taken is the partitioning of Iraq. This involves splitting Iraq into three parts. Northern Iraq would be the centerpiece of the new Kurdistan. The Sunni Triangle could either choose independence or a union with traditional ally, Jordan. Southern Iraq would remain Iraq and be a Shia dominated nation. Baghdad would be split along sectarian lines and the inevitable battle for control of Baghdad would no longer concern us, it would become a Sunni/Shiite war which is exactly what we want. The carnage there would help us convince the rest of the Arab world that change, drastic change was their only real option. Iran would obviously have interests in the new Iraq and that is perfect. The slaughter of Sunnis by the Iranian-backed Shia Iraq would lead to reprisals by the predominantly Sunni Arab world. The backlash against Iran would pave the way for Egypt, Jordan, and possibly Syria to unite at least diplomatically against Iran. Syria, of course is a client state of Iran but with the support of allies Egypt and Jordan I have no doubt that Bashar Assad, a reasonable and Western educated man, would lead Syria out of Iran's orbit and into a loosely allied Sunni led coalition. I am certainly not suggesting that those nations would join in the fight but they would join the rest of the rest of the world in the philosophical disagreement with Iran.

While the partitioning of Iraq and the creation of Kurdistan is the first step to my master plan it is by no means the last. I believe that the aforementioned events would take one year, maybe two. This time would give us time to train and arm the Kurds for step two of the Arthur's Hall roadmap to Middle East peace...the toppling of Islamic Iran. I have no illusions about the desires of the people of Iran. I know they do not want to live in a completely Western nation but I also know that they are frustrated with the current state of Iranian politics. One quarter of the Iranian population under 15 years old and the median age of Iran is 25. The younger generation of Iran is more liberal than the revolution-era generation and the simple act of killing the Islamic clerics that run Iran would bolster the opposition parties that currently operate in the shadows and back alleys of Iran. Them, along with disgruntled young people and the five million Kurds in Iran would prove to be a formidable opponent for the Islamic government.

My plan would entail having the Kurds invade the predominantly Kurdish area of northwestern Iran. Keep in mind that most of the five million Iranian Kurds live in this area so local resistance would be light. It is certainly conceivable that the Iranian Kurds would enthusiastically join their brothers in the struggle. There is certainly historical precedence for the Iranian Kurds to strive for independence. The Kurds of Iran declared independence from Iran in 1945 with support from the Soviet Union. Unfortunately after WWII the Allies were in no mood to upset the status quo in the Middle East and did not recognize the Kurdish Republic and it was crushed by Iran in 1947. Many of the leaders of that nation fled to the USSR and eventually resettled in Iraq to become leaders of the Kurds in Iraq.

Turkey would also have to be placated for the establishment of Kurdistan. The Turkish Kurds have fought for independence since the early 1900s and established a republic in Turkey (The Republic of Ararat) in 1927. As before, the world did not come to the aid of the fledgling nation and it was smashed by the Turks. Kurds make up 8-20% of Turkey's population and mostly live in eastern Turkey. Turkey has always feared a united Kurdistan and the potential for lost territory. In fact, Kurdish language was banned in Turkey until the 1990s. That, along with almost constant skirmishes in Turkish Kurdistan, has created significant animosity between the Turks and independence minded Kurds. Fortunately, Turkey is a member of NATO and a long time ally of the West. The United States and Britain would negotiate with Turkey for the release of Kurdish rebels and for Turkish recognition of Kurdistan. In return, we would allow Turkey to keep its modern borders and help the Kurds of Turkey to leave peacefully.

The Iranians would certainly retaliate against the Kurds and that would give us and our allies cause to intervene in Iran. I do not envision a full scale invasion but rather a covert mission that would be spearheaded by tactical assassinations and targeted air attacks. With most of the Iranian theocracy on the run and in hiding the current government would collapse and the people of Iran would choose some form of self rule. I have no doubt that there would be sectarian violence between Kurds, Azeris and the ruling Persians. This would only galvanize the Kurdish nation and the end result would be a more moderate ruling class in Iran along with the merging of the Iraqi and Iranian Kurds into a larger and more economically viable Kurdistan.

The borders of Kurdistan would include the Al Hasakah province of Syria, the provinces of As Sulaymaniyah, Erbil, Dahuk, Diyala, Kirkuk, Ninawa of Iraq and the provinces of West Azerbijian, East Azerbijian, Ardabil, Gilan, Kurdistan, Kermanshah, Ilam of Iran. Kurdistan would have access to the Caspian Sean which would allow the Kurds to have uninterrupted oil pipelines instead of relying on natural enemies Iran and Turkey. The Kurds long for a nation of their own and they will fight for it. With our diplomatic, economic and military support they would prevail and we would have an economically powerful and oil-rich ally in the Middle East.

The third and final step of my roadmap is, by far, the most difficult...eradicating Islamic fundamentalism once and for all. The actions above would realign nations and rearrange diplomatic and political alliances in our favor but in order to cure the plague that is Islamic fundamentalism the virus must be destroyed. That virus is the decrepit Saudi nation. As we know, Saudi Arabia is the leading exporter of petroleum and Jihadists. A vast majority of the money that supports Islamic fundamentalism worldwide comes directly from the ruling family of Saudi Arabia. They have done an incredible job of masking it through backchannels and so-called Islamic Schools.

With Iran out of the picture, Saudi Arabia becomes the most powerful Islamic government in the world. They have been our “allies” but that alliance is out of convenience. They have oil and we have money and unrivaled military might. The alliance has been an uneasy one throughout its history but we did save them from invasion at the hands of Saddam Hussein in the first Gulf War. On the other hand, they did not allow us to use their nation as a base for the second Gulf War. The aging ruling family of Saudi Arabia is playing both sides out of necessity. If they were to openly to oppose the United States they would face increased scrutiny of their affairs (which would no doubt lead to asset freezes and possibly sanctions for arming and supporting terrorists worldwide). At home, they must not appear to be too pro-Western of they face a revolt that would topple the government. This revolt would be led by the same Jihadists who blow themselves up in airplanes, fan the flames of violence in Iraq and support the Palestinian resistance in Israel.

Saudi Arabia is much like Iran in the 1970s under the Shah. The government is rife with nepotism, corruption and is propped up by foreign money and support. These conditions create an undercurrent where people search out something not bought and paid for. In both cases, the people have looked to radical Islam as a remedy for the hopelessness of their daily lives. The only real difference is that the bulk of Iranians are Shiite while Saudis are almost exclusively Sunnis. The only thing lacking in Saudi Arabia has been the person to unite the opposition like the Ayatollah Khomeini.

bad as Islamic Iran has been, an Islamic Saudi Arabia would be more dangerous to the Western world. Why? Iran, as a nation, has a history of ethnic, linguistic and religious heterogeneity. This makes it less capable of uniting against an enemy or ideology. Saudi Arabia, in contrast, is extremely homogeneous. The Saudis are exclusively Arab, speak Arabic and worship as Sunni Muslims. Compound that with an utter lack of history as a nation and you have a ticking suicide bomb. It is not hard to see how a man with the charisma and skill to overthrow the only ruling family in Saudi history would be able to unite the nation with one cause, the destruction of the West. We cannot allow that to happen. Is the answer to prop up a decaying and corrupt government? Keeping human trash in charge of piss ant nations has served us well in our history but this is not one of those times.

Destroying and rebuilding Saudi Arabia is a momentous task. As we have shown in Iraq, our military is not structured for nation building and occupation. Our military is an unstoppable force that is capable of bringing the proudest of governments to their knees. This is not the correct course of action in Saudi Arabia. I mentioned earlier in my dissertation that we should ally ourselves with moderate and rational states in the Middle East. Of course, I am not convinced many are so I called the creation of Kurdistan. Kurdistan serves two purposes: 1) gives us a base of operations for actions in Iran and Syria if necessary and 2) secures an ally that will be on par with Saudi Arabia in oil production. By this time, Iran will have been destroyed and Kurdistan will be a young but influential republic within the Middle East. This will bring Bashar Assad and others to the bargaining table. I would propose that the forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Kurdistan would occupy Saudi Arabia after our military destroyed any major military targets. These nations would not do this out of their concern for the world, they would do it for a slice of trillions of dollars that would be spent building Saudi Arabia into a modern nation. We would not be rebuilding Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is not a nation, it is collection of people collecting royalty checks held together by a family who would be penniless Bedouins if it were not for the black gold in the sand.

The first step of the construction of Saudi Arabia and the dismantling of Islamic fundamentalism is to force the ruling family to abdicate to a council (named the Saudi Reconstruction Council) led by the governments of the United States, Britain, Jordan, Egypt and Kurdistan. All Saudi owned assets would be frozen worldwide and redistributed later either to the new Saudi Reconstruction Coalition. It goes without saying that annexation will result in bloodshed. Islamofascists would call for Jihad in their homeland and many would respond. Some may think of this as a negative consequence, I argue that it is the opposite. Because US troops would not be on the ground, the lunatics would be forced to kill other Muslims in their effort to free their holy land. Soon the troops and the moderate Muslims would come to realize that they (the SRC troops) were defending the holy land and that Islamofascists were in fact defaming them with their horrific actions and tactics. Stabilizing the initial waves of violence would take years not months.

war is not of tactics, strategy and body counts. The action in Saudi Arabia would be the final step in creating a more modern form of Islam that can coexist with the world. This can only be done by destroying the foundation of the religion in Saudi Arabia. All mosques would be taken away from the current leaders and those mosques would be turned over to Muslim leaders from the SRC that would be cleared by the entire coalition. This would not be popular but in order to change the way that Islam is preached you must change the preachers. If the current leaders resist, they will be executed publicly. US troops would be called in to preside over the Hajj and if the worshipers were to become unruly...the Hajj would be canceled and the people there extricated.

Saudi Arabia, after my plan, would cease to exist. Mecca and Medina would be ruled by the SRC permanently and all possessions of the government or religious entities in Saudi Arabia would be taken, by force if necessary. A constitution would be drawn up to allow for the slow progression towards self rule. The parliament would be voted upon by all Saudis (including women) and that chamber would elect one leader who would join the council as a voting member. The very act of electing a leader of the birthplace of Islam would only erode the power of Islam and transform the people into a more free-thinking and modern people.

The area of the former Saudi Arabia would be under provincial rule for a minimum of ten years. If a nation had second thoughts about their involvement and pulled troops out their seat on the council would be taken by nations who were willing to step in and deploy troops and resources to the theater. I envision a sort of Islamic Disneyland in the new Arabia. It would be ruled by the religion at large and have no political, military or ideological significance. You see, I could care less about Islam existing at all. I would rather their religion become tradition and superstition. Within one generation the firebrand clerics and maniacs that rule Islam now would be replaced by entrepreneurial preachers of sort who give the impression of Islamic teaching but truly would be destroying it.

Fifty years from now, when we are old and gray we will look back at this time as the apex of Islamic fundamentalism. Their time is now. The oil money that suspends the people in a state of lavish hopelessness is running out. The Western world is slowly cutting ties with oil. They feel it slipping away now. That is why Iran has become obsessed with obtaining a nuke. We cannot allow that to happen. The inevitable exhaustion of Saudi and Iranian oil along with the establishment of my new order in the Middle East will gives us lasting peace in the Middle East. The time is now for us to put this roadmap into action and give fundamental Islam the only sentence it deserves: a death caused by first isolation, slow but steady starvation, arduous torture, and finally death, becoming a mere footnote in history never to be mourned or even remembered.
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Old 10-28-2007, 07:55 PM   #30 (permalink)
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"Democratic" governments in the middle east are probably going to be worse for israel than the dictators.

The public sentiment towards israel is pretty bad. Give a country a democracy and the government will do what the people want. The notion that a 'democratic' government in the middle east would not be hostile towards Israel is foolish.

And while Iraq is in the middle east. Afghanistan is not, and really hasn't had anything to do with Israel. Also, a democracy is far more likely to produce a competent army (i.e. that could successfully invade Israel) than an oppressive regime like Saddam's (Since he had a bad habit of killing off competent people and anyone who disagreed or brought bad news).

Oh, and Skutch: Did you actually read that article before you posted it? The situation is a little more complex than that. How many times in history has a religion been successfully wiped out? Even if we wanted to take that course of action our ability to implement would be nonexistent. He makes a good emotional argument, but that is all it is.

But maybe we should give it a shot. Afterall, it worked for the Romans against christianity, the Catholic Church against Protestantism, the Chinese against Tibetan Buddhism, Europe during the crusades (how many times have we tried already?), etc.

If you try to puppet a religion every single practicing member (even the ones who weren't previously out to get us) is going to rebell in the worst possible way. How would you respond if somone executed your local preacher and told you to listen to some other guy instead? That's a real smart way to handle the worlds largest religion.
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:13 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Lower enlisted guy question is:

"Hey, Sarge... why the fuck is our dick in the middle east so deep?"

NCO answer:

"Fuck if I know, son. Keep your weapon clean."

Officer (O4 and up) answer:

(extensive quotes / political far-future crap used above)
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Old 11-03-2007, 06:28 PM   #32 (permalink)
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What about America in 2007 is worth fighting for? A military that stays out of the political process.
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Old 11-04-2007, 08:29 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Edit: No longer relevant.
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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

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Old 01-13-2008, 12:34 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Remember what happened at FEMA,and at the CIA, and at the DOJ? Here is a spotlight on the FBI:
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...011103665.html

...Bassem Youssef, a decorated FBI supervisor who was born in Egypt and speaks fluent Arabic, also said jealousy, discrimination and flawed directives hinder the FBI's attempts to fight terrorism.

"The FBI has publicly stated that <h3>expertise in working counterterrorism matters, and cultural understanding of the Middle East and the radical Islamic groups, as well as the language, are not necessary to run the counterterrorism division,"</h3> said Youssef, speaking publicly for the first time on the subject Saturday at an American Library Association meeting.

Youssef, 49, the highest ranking Arab-American agent, has a discrimination lawsuit pending against the bureau. He has also raised concerns about the FBI's alleged misuse of warrantless searches.

Youssef canceled plans to deliver prepared remarks, after what his lawyer called FBI censorship and threats of disciplinary action, and instead answered questions from the audience.

FBI spokesman Richard Kolko said speeches are reviewed to protect employees and classified information, but that the agency respects its employees' First Amendment rights. .....

Surely they are not fighting for "the right" to come home to live the rest of their lives in a "police state", are they? Wouldn't they want to know that the FBI promotes the most qualified agents to lead the bureau in fighting "the war of terrorism"?

Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...011103665.html
FBI Picks Terrorism Expert to Lead Agency's National Security Sector

By John Solomon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, January 12, 2008; A02

The FBI named a career-long expert in terrorism to its top national security job yesterday as one of its own agents went public with allegations that the bureau still lacks the experience and skills needed to effectively combat terrorists.

Agent Bassem Youssef, a whistle-blower who alleged he was passed over for promotions after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, said in an <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/12/AR2008011202317.html">interview with The Washington Post</a> that counterterrorism agents and their managers still lack basic knowledge about Middle Eastern culture, Arabic language and terrorist mind-sets.

In some cases, Youssef said, that lack of knowledge has caused agents to investigate people they should not, by claiming emergency circumstances. As a result, he added, they are missing others who should be under scrutiny. Youssef currently oversees a headquarters office involved in the gathering of phone records in counterterrorism cases.

"We are . . . really misreading the investigations and the motives and the threats. We're looking at this case as something that is an emergency and exigent when it really isn't," Youssef said. FBI officials disputed Youssef's claims.

....In the aftermath of Sept. 11, the FBI promoted numerous managers to top counterterrorism jobs who had more experience investigating crimes than fighting terrorism, prompting criticisms from both Congress and its own ranks.

Youssef was among those inside the FBI to raise concerns. A decorated counterterrorism agent in the 1990s who was singled out for praise by then-FBI Director Louis J. Freeh, Youssef was passed over for promotions after the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon and pursued a discrimination lawsuit.

As a result of Youssef's litigation, several of the bureau's top terrorism managers acknowledged in depositions that they had limited experience in terrorism or limited knowledge of Middle Eastern culture before taking their jobs. <h3>An internal investigation eventually substantiated Youssef's claims that the FBI retaliated against him.</h3>

Youssef was scheduled to speak publicly today about the FBI at the American Library Association's meeting in Philadelphia. His lawyer accused the FBI of refusing to let him deliver a speech there, but bureau officials said they simply asked Youssef to put his planned remarks through a standard clearance process. Instead of giving a speech, Youssef plans a question-and-answer session.

Youssef said that in 2005 his entire office was diverted to work on the "Coyote Runner" case in which raw intelligence suggested Iraqi agents were being smuggled across the Mexican border for some sort of dirty-bomb plot. The intelligence proved wrong, and Youssef said he tried to tell his boss at the beginning that the tip was suspect, but he was overruled.

Miller said the FBI decided not to engage in "guesswork" about the suspect intelligence and instead chose to investigate to ensure that the plot was not real.
At the Librarian's Association meeting on friday, Bassem Youssef attempted to answer question, since the FBI prohibited him from addressing the group,unless the FBI could edit (censor) his speech, before he gave it:

Quote:
http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t...cid=1126207948
At ALA Midwinter, Arab-American FBI Agent Says Agency Cuts Corners
Norman Oder -- Library Journal, 1/12/2008
* First appearance at public forum
* Says FBI lax on National Security Letters
* Suggests gag order isn’t wise

In his first appearance at a public forum (though he has done media interviews), Bassem Youssef, the highest-ranking Arab American agent in the FBI, this morning offered a careful but impassioned indictment of current FBI practices in the war on terror, warning that the FBI is cutting corners to acquire data without supporting the human intelligence that would be more effective. He had been scheduled to present a speech at the American Library Association (ALA) Midwinter Meeting in Philadelphia, but after the FBI got wind of an ALA press release, he was limited to answering questions and was sometimes cautioned by his attorney, Stephen Kohn, not to offer more details.

Youssef, who noted that he was speaking for himself, not the FBI, explained how FBI standards have become less stringent in overseeing what may become fishing expeditions for information. Before 9/11 and the USA PATRIOT Act, he said, National Security Letters (NSLs)—which do not require judicial oversight, as do subpoenas—had to be authorized by an official at FBI headquarters. After the Patriot Act, however, NSLs could be authorized by the Special Agent in Charge at FBI field offices. “That diffused it, in terms of authority,” he said.

NSLs, Youssef, explained, <h3>allow the FBI to search the “community of interest” of a target—essentially anyone the person calls. “If there’s an assumption that all their contacts are bad contacts, we’re in big trouble.”
</h3>
Shunted aside?

Youssef, who immigrated to the United States with his family from Egypt, had been lauded for work in the 1990s, but after he complained that his skills were not being used following the 9/11 attacks, he was shunted aside and has sued for discrimination. (The Department of Justice’s Office of Professional Responsibility, in a preliminary investigation, found grounds to believe that Youssef’s disclosures to the FBI director contributed to his not being placed in a department investigating international terrorism.) “All I’ve ever wanted to do was be a good FBI agent…and arrest terrorists,” Youssef told the audience.

Youssef was moved from counterintelligence to head the Communications Analysis Unit, supervising 50 agents. “As easy as it was to get an NSL for warrantless searching, the FBI wasn’t even doing that,” his lawyer explained. “Instead, they were relying on a very narrow exception known as exigent circumstances, where they need nothing—nothing!”

FBI officials, Kohn said, told Youssef that an exigent circumstance meant “we need it promptly. <h3>We now know that the definition provided was a false definition, because exigent circumstances require life-threatening or imminent [danger].”</h3>

Gag order OK?

Attorney Tom Susman, a consultant to ALA’s Washington Office, asked Youssef whether he thought the gag order accompanying NSLs, which prohibits targets—such as the four “John Doe” librarians in Connecticut—from revealing that an investigation is ongoing, was “in all cases fully justified.”

“There’s so much I can’t get into,” replied Youssef. “But I can say that it takes an official who’s got the expertise and experience to justify” whether such a gag order is necessary.

“Would it make it less effective if there were more central control?” Susman followed up.

Obtaining telephone, library, and email records in counterterrorism investigations, Youssef responded, requires expertise. He gave the hypothetical example of an FBI official who has worked only organized crime. “You could imagine what sort of abuse might happen as a result.”

“If the person signing the NSL hasno real basic understanding of terrorism,” Kohn continued, “what gives them the qualification for signing for warrantless searches for thousands of Americans?”

Depressing or inspiring?

<h3>One questioner in the audience called the session “the most depressing 45 minutes,” while another, later on and after Kohn urged attendees to support the work of the National Whistleblowers Center, said that Youssef’s willingness to press on was inspiring.</h3>

“I’m a strong believer in God,” Youssef responded, explaining the source of his fortitude. “I believe that God is a righteous God. Jesus Christ is my lord, and I live for him.” Later, at the end of the session, he got a standing ovation.
I am depressed because I am wondering if the repression is far enough along now, to insure.....I guess we have only to wait until after the voting in november to see if the rise of the new police state is to guarantee that the permanent supremacy of one political party is accomplished.

Last edited by host; 01-13-2008 at 12:49 AM..
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Old 01-13-2008, 09:18 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Host:

So basically you are saying that because the FBI discriminated against someone our soldiers are fighting for the right to live in a police state?

I'm sorry, but I don't see how that article is even remotely relevant to this dead thread.

Also, everything in those articles (that I noticed anyways) was coming from the mouth of a single disgruntled employee.

As far as trustworthiness, this Yusef guy has spilled the beans on as much information as he thinks he can get away with. Why should an organization entrust someone such as him to a key position? Just because he doesn't like how business is conducted doesn't mean he as an individual should go telling everyone.

Also, how is it relevant that FBI officials had "limited" experience before taking a job. Of course it's limited, unless you are or have been an extremist, the only experience you can get is limited.

It was also indicated in the article that DUE TO YUSEF"S DISCLOSURES to the director, he was passed over for the anti terrorism job. If the guy has some skeletons in his closet, why shouldn't they pass him over? Organizations need dirty people for low level work where the damage they can do is limited and their knowledge and experience in how the criminal element operates can be used, but they are a liability at the higher levels.

They didn't fire him, just didn't let him on the anti-terrorism team.



I honestly believe that the Democrats will win the next election, but I don't see how they would do anything except further erode our personal freedoms.
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Old 01-14-2008, 04:11 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
I enlisted in the US Army for purely selfish reasons.

I wanted to harden myself, test myself, push myself.

You'll find most enlisted members joined up for money / adventure.

I wasn't thinking about politics or the housing market when I signed.

I second that except the Navy- an unexpectedly ended up with the Marines as a corpsman. Now that Im out I truly miss being in a environment where everyone around me is striving to be the best they can be. Sounds cliche-- but I really would rather be an hour early than a second late, I give 100% to every professional endeavor I perform, and I'm seen as being weird or a kiss ass, or making everyone else look bad. Espirit de Corps is not known in the civilian sector and its something I have had to learn to deal with and accept.

The US had it during WWII, but I dont know if its technology or Walmart something has happend-- now a person works just hard enougn not to get fired and is paid just enough so they dont quit..


I love the military, Im proud to have served, and glad we have an outstanding force, but when asked the question of the OP, I dont know how to answer in the way George has put my beliefs so well..


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Last edited by Sun Tzu; 01-14-2008 at 04:14 AM..
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Old 01-19-2008, 05:30 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Absolutely! George has a long history of knocking one's out of the park. Watching his clip reminded me of a piece on Olbermann last night. He ended "Countdown" with a spoof on Halliburton. Wish I could find a link. It was hilarious last night. This morning I can't figure out if it's funny or so spot on it's merely depressing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Tzu
I second that except the Navy- an unexpectedly ended up with the Marines as a corpsman. Now that Im out I truly miss being in a environment where everyone around me is striving to be the best they can be. Sounds cliche-- but I really would rather be an hour early than a second late, I give 100% to every professional endeavor I perform, and I'm seen as being weird or a kiss ass, or making everyone else look bad. Espirit de Corps is not known in the civilian sector and its something I have had to learn to deal with and accept.

The US had it during WWII, but I dont know if its technology or Walmart something has happend-- now a person works just hard enougn not to get fired and is paid just enough so they dont quit..


I love the military, Im proud to have served, and glad we have an outstanding force, but when asked the question of the OP, I dont know how to answer in the way George has put my beliefs so well..


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