silent_jay

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Baraka_Guru

Yeah, it's all very interesting what happens when a child soldier captured during an incident is then run through the questionable apparatus of "justice" built around the GWOT.

Within that apparatus, it appears that being a brown Muslim child soldier specifically is a really bad thing. Even your own country might abandon you. However, I wouldn't have expected Canada to be the only one to do it---and with a minor, no less.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

james t kirk

1. The definition of a child soldier is a person 14 or under. When OK was caught after the fire fight with the Americans - he was 15. Therefore, not a child soldier.

International humanitarian law
According to Article 77.2 of the Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts, adopted in 1977:

‘The Parties to the conflict shall take all feasible measures in order that children who have not attained the age of fifteen years do not take a direct part in hostilities and, in particular, they shall refrain from recruiting them into their armed forces. In recruiting among those persons who have attained the age of fifteen years but who have not attained the age of eighteen years, the Parties to the conflict shall endeavour to give priority to those who are oldest.’

2. Canada did not make him a child soldier - his parents did.

3. OK does not meet the recognized definition of a soldier.

I see no need to jump through any loopholes.

---------- Post added at 01:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 PM ----------

Hardly as I pretty much always vote liberal. I'm not a fan of Harper, I thought Paul Martin was a good man.

I'm just pointing out the fact that the liberals had 4 years to do something about OK and they chose not to.

And here's a fact you can bank on....

If the liberals were elected tomorrow (not that that is going to happen) they wouldn't do anything any differently.

AND, the Americans wouldn't give OK back anyway.

OK will get his day in court. If he stopped playing games and firing legal team after legal team after legal team, maybe they could get it over with already.

Baraka_Guru

If you look at the UN's Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict, you will find these passages:
Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflicts

Here are relevant Articles (emphasis mine):
What's particularly important is Article 4, regarding armed groups that aren't armed forces of a State.

This protocol was adopted, signed, and ratified by the UN, and it became enforced in 2002, which postdates the Geneva parameters.

Generally, this means that Khadr was a) enlisted as a child soldier, and b) captured as a child soldier.

Have a look at the position of Sen. Dallaire. It's one I agree with. The Canadian government has failed to uphold our values regarding human rights.

Dallaire accuses Canada of hypocrisy on Khadr case - CTV News

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

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silent_jay

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silent_jay

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silent_jay

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dlish

jay, did you think at any time that this was going to be a fair trial? seriously.

crying torture is only a plot of hardened AQ terrorists in order to get evidence around them shot down. Because americans soldiers have never tortured people in the war on terror, nor has any american leader sign off on any torture techniques. it just doesnt happen.

what kind of warped world do you live in thinking that the american military is even capable of torture?

we all knew the outcome of this trial from years ago. Someone's got to take the punishment in order to appease the Speer family and the waiting media entourage. if he walks free, they'd be an uproar. Whatever his sentence, it will always be too light in the eyes of the Speer family.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

silent_jay

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Baraka_Guru

More causalities in the GWOT.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

james t kirk

It would seem the Canadian Left's favourite little Terrorist is now going to change his plea to guilty in exchange for a reduced sentence, most of which is to be served in Canada.

So much for the "he couldn't have done it cause he was only 15" crowd.

No deal has yet been concluded but the shape of one – Omar Khadr pleading guilty to some or all of the war crimes charges, including murder and terrorism, in exchange for a reduced sentence and the option of serving at least some of it in Canada – has emerged.

Source:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1757064/

Baraka_Guru

Are the Tory fascists happy about this?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

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Baraka_Guru

I know. I was a bit confused by the response. In a way, I felt like I was being painted a bleeding heart terrorist lover simply for wanting justice.

I probably should have said more, like how Canada should indeed take on responsibility for repatriation and that sentencing should be done in Canada, but I would have run the risk of being accused as a terrorist sympathizer.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

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james t kirk

Pretty much.

I think that you believe that your opinion is correct and mine is wrong. I also think that during the heat of this thread that the tone of your argument has been patronizing at best, insulting at worst. (Something I have tried to avoid.)

Even now when Khadr has confessed to the murder of the US soldier, you continue to plea his case. I have maintained from the begining that he is a terrorist (he is), he took up arms against this country (he did), he murdered a US soldier (now we know he did).

I have also stated that the majority of Canadians would prefer to keep him out of the country (I do believe that) and you disagreed with me. Well, there's a poll out in McLeans I believe that shows that 48% of Canadians feel that the gov't should do everything in their power to keep him out of the country period, another 12% feel that he should serve his sentence in Canada, and 39% feel that he should have been repatriated a long time ago.

So you see, my arguement is not wholely unsupported. In fact, quite the opposite.

You weep for Khadr because you think him a victim of George Bush's "War on Terror". You use him as a poster boy for how the policies of George Bush have somehow made a mockery of justice and the Canadian Constitution both at the same time. You don't seem to care about the circumstance of how this all came to be, or the fact that a US soldier was killed by him, or that Khadr was building and planting roadside bombs to kill Nato Soldiers. You only see him as some symbol against the "Tory Fascists" (which is laugable because it was the Liberals who agreed to join NATO in Afghanistan, and the Liberals did nothing to repatriate Omar Khadr).

Anyway, with Khadr's confession, so goes your arguement.

When he's out of the clink in however many years you can invite him to live with you. (I'm pretty sure you won't though.)

Baraka_Guru

james, your presumptions are still showing. You might want to... oh, never mind.

For the record, I have never claimed, nor will I claim, that you hate children and brown people.

That, just for the record.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

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dlish

hmm...let me see... another decade or more languishing in cuba or a sentence with a finite end in site and maybe some closure at the end of it if you could call it that. its a pretty easy call.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Baraka_Guru

Yeah, that's the problem with plea deals. They're often a form of coercion. They can end in admission of guilt based on fear, not necessarily truth.

Even if he signs a plea deal admitting guilt, it doesn't necessary mean he's guilty.

The whole thing is a mess. They're basing much of what they have on "material" they began extracting from him using abusive interrogation tactics.

At this point, the least Canada should do is repatriate him and handle the sentencing. The handling of matters of justice during this period in the GWOT was a disaster. Guantanamo was a disaster. They should have repatriated him along with the others repatriated by other nations. Canada is the only G8 nation to fail to do this. It is a smear on our international reputation.

This need not be about sympathy for Khadr. It should at least be about the rule of law and human rights.

All things considered, I'm not all that surprised we failed to earn a seat at the U.N. Security Council.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

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Cimarron29414

It seems he did plead guilty.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Baraka_Guru

It's not all that shocking (to me, it's anticlimactic). This was being coerced out of him from day one (you know, since July 27, 2002).

Now if only we could get the Canadian government to plead guilty. It's a bit of a longshot though, since a Security Intelligence Review Committee report, a federal court, and the Supreme Court of Canada wasn't enough to be convincing of that. This, even after orgs such as the Canadian Bar Association urging Khadr's return to Canada.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dlish

yeah he pleaded guilty to all charges. But Plea deals NEVER give you a true picture of the story. It gives both sides what they want. The US wanted a guilty verdict. they got that. He wanted closure and a light at the end of the tunnel instead of life in jail. He gets out in 8 more years.

Please bargains mean shit when it comes to a question of real guilt. His options were to plead guilty and cop 8 years, or face life in prison if you fight it all the way, with a likelyhood of facing life.

the real question is, if he was such a danger to society, why would they even take that risk of releasing him after 8 years?

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

silent_jay

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Baraka_Guru

Again, Dallaire has kept this in perspective. Canada has failed to protect a child soldier. Canada has failed to follow the rule of law.

I don't expect much out of the Tories either. They're shrewd in how they ignore/gloss things and play politics. Though I'll admit that the whole "blame Ignatieff" for the Security Council loss was a bit sloppy.

We'll have another election soon enough.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

james t kirk

Omar Khadr threw a grenade with the intent of killing as many Americans as he could and told interrogators he felt happy that he had killed a U.S. soldier, according to a statement of facts agreed to by Khadr himself.

According to the document, which was read aloud during his sentencing hearing Tuesday at the U.S. naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, Khadr threw the grenade after a firefight with U.S. soldiers had ended and knowing the Americans were looking for the wounded or dead.

The nine-page document describes in detail the 24-year-old Khadr's life, his connections to al-Qaeda and actions leading up to and following his murder of Sgt. Christopher Speer in July 2002. Khadr appears to have signed the document — attesting to its accuracy — on Oct. 13, 2010.

Among other things, it also says the Toronto-born Khadr:

•Knew his father had a close relationship with the head of al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden.
•Attended one-on-one private terrorist training from a member of al-Qaeda.
•Learned to use rocket-propelled grenades, assault rifles and improvised explosive devices during training in Afghanistan in June 2002.
•Hoped to kill "a lot of Americans" in order to receive reward money ($1,500 US per American killed.)
•Chose to engage in a firefight with U.S. troops while armed with an AK-47 Kalishnikov rifle and pistol.
•Has no legal defence to any of the charges to which he pleaded guilty.


Read more: CBC News - World - Khadr threw grenade to kill 'many Americans'



**************************************************************************************************************

Omar was the ONLY terrorist left in the compound. All the others had been killed at the time of him throwing the grenade. The Americans had the place surrounded, there was no grassy knoll, there was no second shooter, there was no 2'nd mystery terrorist.

It was just Omar.

If you want to give him a break because of his age - fine. I believe the Americans did exactly that. Keep in mind that not every jurisdiction has the nice cushy "Youth Criminal Justice Act" that gives out Get of Jail Free cards till you're 18 (and not all Canadians think that that is necessarily a bad thing. Little Omar will serve one more year, then get repatriated back to Canada (unfortunately) and then he will spend maybe a week or two in jail in Canada at which time he will be paroled.

Omar is a guilty as the day is long.

End of story.

---------- Post added at 03:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------

Yes we will and the Conservatives will win again.

Do you really think in all of god's green earth that the Liberals will make little Omar and the rest of his Terrorist loving family a call to arms in the next election?

Really?

Baraka_Guru

Yeah, "story" indeed...nice fiction. You know his guilt is still unproven, right? And now it seems it never will be proven.

I don't know why you're so certain.

Um, no. Don't be ridiculous. For starters, there is no God. Second, that's not the kind of item any politician would want to make as a focus of their platform.

Harper just sucks, is all.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

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james t kirk

No Gullt has been proven?

Please...he confessed to murder and terrorism. If he didn't do it, then don't confess. His very own account fits the version told by the US soldiers as well. He was the only guy left standing in that compound. I guess if there isn't a video of him doing it - neither of you will believe it. You both WANT to believe he's innocent, but did it ever occur to you that well, maybe he IS guilty of murder.

Khadr has NEVER expressed once ANY regret for what he has done, and I'm not just talking about killing the US medic in question, I'm talking about making and planting road side bombs, participating in terrorist activities, idolizing Terrorists, his utter disdain for Western Society. This guy is a dyed in the wool terrorist. There is no doubt of that.

Your continued arguing for this Terrorist is based on your passion and not on facts. You want to make him some sort of poster boy against the American led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. To the entire American populace, Omar is not worth getting riled up about. He's a murdering Terrorist and the facts and his very own confession support that. He's no different than approximately 3,000 other Canadians sitting in foreign jails. I don't see either of you getting all worked up about that. Nowhere in the Constitution does simply being Canadian guarantee you a get out of jail free card.

Frankly, the entire "Free Omar" debate is virtually out of gas now.

He did it. He killed an unarmed medic, and he is a murdering treasonous terrorist.

But just out of curiosity.....answer me this one question.

Hypothetically speaking......

What if Omar really did kill the unarmed American Medic?

In both your humble opinions - what should happen to him?

---------- Post added at 12:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 AM ----------


Yeah, he did get a break because of his age.

The Americans play hard ball when it comes to law and order. If he wasn't as old as he was when he was arrested, he quite probably would have been facing a Death Sentence.

That didn't happen. He's been in prison for 8 years, he'll be sentenced to another 8 (which he'll never serve) for a total of 16 years for murder (instead of a firing squad).


There's your condescending and patronizing style of discussion rearing its frustrated head over and over again. Exactly what I was talking about previously.

Baraka_Guru

I never said I wanted him to be innocent. I wanted him to have access to justice. In case you don't know, a plea bargain includes conditions. The condition to stating not guilty would subject him to a farce of an already farcical "justice" procedure.

Yeah, and the odd thing is that, for some reason, it's easy to deny the fact that he was child. And as an aside, I don't think "dyed in the wool" is found in any official terminology. Where did you get that? Is it Freudian? It sounds older than that. Either way, it sounds like sheepshit.

I'm sorry, your first sentence here is ridiculous. It makes you look like you have little clue as to what I've written thus far. Not only that, but it's painfully ironic. Have you any idea what my position is? For a while now, it seemed like you don't know what my position on this matter is. Now I'm convinced. You really don't know my position on this. Also, you are misrepresenting the statements I've made about this issue. This isn't only disrespectful, but it kind of pisses me off. Do you honestly think I regard the Constitution as such? Give me a break. Under normal circumstances, I would have kindly asked you to reread my posts in this thread, but you know what? I know it will just be a waste of time. You clearly either a) cannot comprehend what I wrote or b) are intentionally misrepresenting my position. This brings me to the conclusion that you have no interest in an actual reasonable discussion of the issues I have raised. This is because you seem to refuse to address them and go off on your own political agenda.

I'm not a part of any debate regarding his freedom; I want him to have access to the same justice I'd want for you and me.

This is unproven. A plea bargain is not a verdict. Some would call it a scare tactic.

I already answered this question a long time ago---multiple times. I'm not answering it again. It's all in the thread. Honestly, how do you not know this?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dlish

JTK, the 'statement of facts' is laughable to say the least.

no hardened and ardent jihadi kills an american for money. if the picture you paint of omar is true, then the killing of american soldier would have been enough for him to get his reward for his god.



but this JTK quote made me laugh the most


wow! surprise surprise!

...sorry to break it to you, but maybe it hasnt dawned on you that thats because the US military drafted it up for him and asked him to sign in order to guarantee his freedom. The fact that his "very own" version fits in with the US military's "version" verbatim, should be ringing alarm bells for you.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

silent_jay

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james t kirk

It's a very simple question guys:

Do you believe that Omar Khadr killed the American Medic?

Or do you both need a video of Omar pulling the pin and hurling the grenade to be able to be sure? Without a video, it can't be a fact.


BTW BG, do you not think that Omar has access to justice? Are you saying the American legal system is some sort of Kangeroo Court? Omar doesn't have representation (About 5 different legal teams fighting for him over the years - all of which he has fired time and time again).

Here's a timeline that the CBC has on its website. The US and Canadian Gov'ts have expended a massive amount of time and resources on this case. If they simply locked him up and threw away the key, I might be inclined to agree with you, however, it simply isn't the case. Omar Khadr has had more access to justice and representation than anyone I can think of frankly. You seem to think that he's been railroaded or denied justice and I simply don't see it.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/...-timeline.html

Baraka_Guru

Now you're changing the question. I might tell you what you'd like to know, but I'm not sure what that is.

Whether he killed the guy wasn't for me to decide. I'm not interested in whether I believe he killed the guy. The focus of my interest in his case was the fact that he was a child soldier captured and charged with a number of crimes and had his rights violated and wasn't getting due process under the law. I'd be more interested in whether he killed the guy under proper circumstances—something which didn't happen. When appropriate justice is in limbo, I tend to focus on that instead.

But you don't seem to care about that. Though you may deny that you indifferent to Canada's charter on human rights and freedoms and the rule of law, one thing is clear: you can't keep these things in focus. You tend to take the issue off the rails and make emotional appeals as to why Khadr is undeserving of these very things you would otherwise ostensibly uphold.

The items and responsibilities laid out in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the concept of rule of law are not conditional on how one feels about someone or how angry one is about a situation.

I really don't know what to say to you anymore. I know your position. I just think it's tragic.

---------- Post added at 01:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 PM ----------

As Dallaire has mentioned more than once, the court under which Khadr is charged is illegal based on his status.

Furthermore, the entire handling of Khadr is fraught with legal problems. This is because of the Americans' handling of Guantanamo and the legal apparatus under the GWOT overall. This is one of the reasons why he should have been extradited. He would have been virtually guaranteed an appropriate trial.

Instead he got the crap that led up to his plea bargain, which some have argued was America's way of getting rid of an embarrassment of a situation, being that Khadr is a Canadian national, was a child soldier, and is the only person charged for murder of an American soldier in Afghanistan. Their whole handling of this is an eyesore, and it took so long to actually piece together some semblance of a system of justice because it was a joke—albeit a sick one. That's probably the reason why the Canadian government didn't want anything to do with it. It was an embarrassment—a folly masquerading as justice.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

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silent_jay

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