Liquor Dealer

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,89115,00.html
We'll do the extremes on sources so no one feels we are trying to slant this!
http://www.msnbc.com/news/801833.asp?0cv=CA01
TIT

JERUSALEM — A homicide bomber dressed as an ultra-Orthodox Jew blew himself up on a bus in downtown Jerusalem Wednesday afternoon, killing 15 people and wounding scores of others. The Hamas militant group claimed responsibility for the attack.

Paramedics and police reported said approximately 100 people were wounded, including 15 in serious condition.

Officials said 10 of the people who died were aboard the bus, and the other five were passersby. The homicide bomber also died in the blast.

FOT TAT

About an hour later, an Israeli helicopter fired missiles at a car in Gaza City, targeting a senior Hamas militant identified as Tito Massoud, a commander of the Hamas military wing, Israel TV reported.

Doctors said eight Palestinians were killed and at least 20 were wounded in the missile attack.

Witnesses said an Israeli Apache helicopter fired two missiles at a car stuck in a traffic jam in the neighborhood of Shijaiyah and then fired again after a group of people gathered around the stricken vehicle.

Two bodies were taken out of the car, one decapitated. The dead included Massoud, 35, and another Hamas militant, Soffil Abu Nahez, 29.

The roadmap to peace has hits a real snag. Not trying to start a flame war but I think If I was in authority in Jerusalem it might be difficult to find a live Palestinian by morning. And yes! I know there are women and children there - But, How do you separate the innocent from the terrorist? The Israeli government , in my opinion, has shown amazing restraint up to this point. This is a nation that was, and is capable of going through two or three neighboring countries in a week - They have a military that is like John Wayne toilet paper - it is capable of dealing with whatever comes up. I think that whoever, if anyone, that is in charge of the Palestinians were to think about this they would see how shaky the ground they are on could become. It would cause one hell of an uproar for a few days but perhaps it is time for them to be turned loose.

Your turn.

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Sparhawk

MSNBC is an extreme news source?

While it's quite certain Israel could conquer a significant portion of the middle east, what then? It's having enough trouble dealing with the west bank and gaza, 3 million palestinians. How about a couple hundred million arabs on top of that? I don't think so....

The solution doesn't lie in more attacks- from EITHER side- but from negotiation and an appreciation of shared interests. Unfortunately there are powerful forces on both sides that aren't interested in that.

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The_Dude

this is bull

when one side kills some people, the other side does the same.

if this goes on, then we'll have violence 4ever.

somebody needs to call a real truce and work this out

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4thTimeLucky

"an eye for an eye and the whole world is blind"

The list of TIT for TAT for TIT for TAT could go back to the first Palestinian death of the Intifada or the first Israeli death of the Israeli-Arab wars or the first Palestinian death after the British pulled out of the region or the first Israeli death.....

For me both sides have seeped themselves in blood, violence and guilt. Therefore Liqour Dealer's statement that he would wipe out all Palestinians is very unfair and one sided. Wipe out both sides or none at all. (I would go for the latter )

But I also acknowledge some other things which may be more controversial: Most signficantly that Israel's killing is carried out by the government, whilst the Palestinian violence is committed by terrorist groups. I expect terrorists to kill people indiscriminately - they are beyond the law. I do not expect states to use gunships and bulldozers to kill people indiscriminataly.

I also don't agree with the use of gunships to assassinate terrorist suspects. This is a trend that the US has sadly begun to adopt.

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Kadath

In the spirit of this, I propose we carve the entire middle east out of the earth and launch it into fucking space.

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Liquor Dealer

The point I was trying to make is that Israel has the capacity and the ability to annihilate the Palestinians and have not done so! It is nothing approaching state terrorism on their part - the Palestinians could all be gone when the sun comes up in the morning. I think they have showed remarkable restraint up to this point. How much longer will this restraint last? I would imagine a guess that the Palestinians had better get serious about their negotiations. Probably soon. They still exist because Israel has allowed them to exist - look at it from any angle you choose but in the end, they are there because Israel has chosen to allow them to remain. Israel answers to no one - definitely not to the UN and probably not much more than that to the US. They have proven, on several occasions, that the Arabs do not scare them. I think it is time that the UN and perhaps the rest of the world should probably acknowledge their existance. I don't think they are really asking the world for much more than that. Your turn.

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Sparhawk

My turn, eh?

Sounds to me like you're suggesting some sort of 'Final Solution' on the Palestinians. The Jews know all about that, and certainly would rebel against any government that tried it. One of those darn problems with open democracies, huh? You can't get away with s***!! Really though, 'annihilating' the Palestinians would bring the wrath of the international community down on them, UN or no UN, US or no US. They'd be economically sanctioned and become another rogue nation like North Korea.

Your Solution = Final Solution = No Solution

The only endgame here can be a two-state scenario, with both sides sharing Jerusalem.

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Liquor Dealer

I'm not suggesting they do it - I am saying that they have the ability and have not done it. Could they get away with it? I think they could. I think there would be a hell of a stink for 2 or 3 weeks and then something else would come along and it would all blow over. They have acted very responsible under the ongoing circumstance - What I am saying is that they cannot be expected to continue to act that way indefinitely.

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Kadath

Wait, I want to be clear. You're saying there would be "a hell of a stink" and then it would "blow over" if the Israelis expunged the Palestinians? Got rid of them? Utterly? And you think that would go away after "a hell of a stink" for a few weeks?
Is that what you are saying?

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Liquor Dealer

Would that be any more drastic than a lot of what is being allowed to go on in other parts of the world today? I am suggesting no such thing but do you really think anyone in the world, other than perhaps the US would have the balls to stand up to them? Do you think this would really be any different in outcome from what the N Korean government is doing to its own people? Think about some of these things - look at how easy it is to condemn one and ignore the other.

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Simple_Min

Wow. Amazing. Some days I think there's hope for humanity and others...

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MacGnG

Israels response might have been extreme but suicide bombings are extreme. Israel targeted the leaders of the extremist group that claimed responsibility, I see nothing wrong with that.

Kadath

Wait, how are you suggesting no such thing? I quoted you pretty much exactly. How did I get it wrong?

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Dragonlich

If Israel were to kill all the Palestinians, there'd be a lot more stink than if, say, Turkey were to kill all the Kurds, or Congo all the hutsis or tutsis or whatever. It is in the news, and Arabs seem to identify with the poor-oppressed-Palestinians. The evil-oppressive-shouldn't-even-be-there-Jews are another matter altogether, of course, and can be "driven into the sea" without any problem.

One question: why is it, that when Hamas/Jihad blows up some Israelis, everyone goes out of their way to point out that the rest of the Palestinians are innocent, and this is just a small minority; while, if Jews in Israel blow up Palestinians, many (young) Muslims blame all of Israel, or even *all* the Jews worldwide? (One might suggest that Hamas/Jihad have more popular support from the Palestinians than Sharon has from the Jews...)

debaser

I'm sorry do I actually see people trying to take sides in this dispute? Lets see who is really right:

Israel - Slowly becomeing what they most feared (a fascist state).

Palestine - Slowly losing touch with the basic tenants of their religion, and their humanity.

Both sides - Acting like spoiled little bitches.

Solution - Return borders to those specified in UN181, build a huge fucking wall, and play cold war for a generation until everyone forgets why they hate each other.

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debaser

Oh, one other thing (while I'm ranting):

I HATE the term "homicide bomber". Gavrilo Princip was a "homicide bomber". If I throw a grenade into a passing car, I am a "homicide bomber". If, on the other hand, I blow myself into a fine red mist when I commit my crime, I am a "suicide bomber".

Arrrrgh, double speak surrounds me!


/rant

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Nad Adam

Best solution I've ever heard of. You got my vote.

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4thTimeLucky

i) The Israelis do not have the ability to wipe out the Palestinians, just as the Nazis did not have the power to wipe out the Jews. They do not even have the power to wipe out all the Palestinians within its own borders (I mean Israel+Palestine) let alone all the refugees in neighbouring countries. It would be a genocide on Holocaust proportions, except it would be beemed live to every TV set on the planet - I know the UN are a bit reluctant to act sometimes, but they do have their limits.

ii) Would you say that Osama Bin Laden has shown "remarkable restraint" in only blowing up a couple of towers and a few embassies/resorts? After all he probably could have done more.

iii) They still exist because they are a people with human rights, the will to live and a territory that is theirs by right (we can argue all we like about where the border lies, but there was always intended to be an area for the Palestinian people). Israel does not give them permission to exist. Israel is not God.

iv) Israel will answer to the world community if it goes too far. Every country does. Even America has been put in its place by the WTO at times. (note: The US is rarely sanctioned by world bodies because it is a veto wielder at the Security Council and knows how to play the 'this is legal... just' game. If Israel started a flat out genocide it would have neither of these protections.)

One answer, because a government is elected by and represents the citizens of the state. A terrorist group is just that - a group.
If Hamas kills a person then blame Hamas.
If Israel kills a person then blame Israel.
I do not like the fact that my government killed people in Iraq. I did not support them in their action. I did not vote for Labour. But I still must bear some responsibility for what they did, because it is my government and I (along with all other Brits) must take responsibility for its actions - if I and all other citizens don't take responsibility, then who will?

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Sparhawk

My dad has a solution he likes to trumpet out every once in a while- Build a giant wall the size of rhode island and guard it from the outside, throw everyone involved inside it with an AK-47 and 40 rounds of ammunition. Then just guard the wall for 5 years.

'Problem Solved'

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

seretogis

Your comparison of Israel to Osama Bin Laden, and selected strikes against known terrorist leaders to the slaughter of thousands of innocents, is very telling.

Bin Laden and Hamas committed acts of terrorism which killed and injured thousands of civilians. Israel is merely taking out the garbage and trying to deal with the terrorists that are killing their people. Can you even tell the difference between the two?

If any "roadmap to peace" can be followed, those who oppose peace at all costs (fanatical terrorists) must be eliminated and shunned by BOTH sides before anything positive will happen.

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perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
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4thTimeLucky

I agree with all you say seretogis

Liquour Dealer said that Israel could wipe out all Palestinians if it wanted to and had shown restraint in not doing so. I merely wanted to point out that only causing some terrible destruction and not a gargantuan amount of terrible destruction is not something that should really be praised for its "restraint". I used the Bin Laden analogy to demostrate this.

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geep

I do not expect anyone to kill people indiscriminately. I don't think this is what the Israelis have done. To compare the Israelis actions to the terrorists actions is absurd. I do believe the Israelis would have impressed me more if they dealt with this situation by making arrests. To me, THAT would be showing restraint.

opentocomments

The only time i have ever seen this in my sheltered life is when my Friend Mohammed told me that his Grandparents were millionares and owned horses and all that fancy stuff in Palistine and the the Israelis took over they told his family that the land and horses and possisions were theirs. So i have a very Pro Arab view on this one. I dont think the UN had the right to say get out of your land and give it to these people because they dont have any land. Sorry if i offended any one but its true

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popo

The problem is that it's not.

The UN didn't tell anyone to get out of any land. The land was divided since there were MANY Jews already living there. The areas in which Jews lived were given to Israel and the area in which Arabs lived were given to Palestine. Mass movement only took place when 5 Arab countries declared war on Israel and told fellow Arabs to leave the area in order to make it easy for them to sweep in and destroy the Jews.

Many did leave, creating the refugee problem. Many stayed, though, and they were given full citizenship and IIRC they were the first Arabs in the Middle East allowed to vote. These people make up ~13% of Israel's population and have 10% of the Israeli parliament. Although there have been rough times recently, these Israeli Arabs and other Israelis have lived in peace together.

So, some Arabs remained and became full citizens of Israel, while others were kicked off their land and became refugees? Sorry, it just doesn't make sense. And if you look at Arab quotes from that time, you'd agree too:

ON APRIL 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council: "The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce ... They preferred to abandon their homes, belongings and everything they possessed."

ON SEPTEMBER 6, 1948, the Beirut Daily Telegraph quoted Emil Ghory, secretary of the AHC, as saying: "The fact that there are those refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously..."

ON JUNE 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab League, wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that in 1948, Azzam Pasha, then League secretary, had "assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade ... Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property, and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states."

IN THE MARCH 1976 issue of Falastin a-Thaura, then the official journal of the Beirut-based PLO, Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen"), PLO spokesman, wrote: "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live."

ON APRIL 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee, Yunes Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin, as saying: "For the flight and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders who are responsible, because of the dissemination of rumours exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... they instilled fear and terror into the hearts of the Arabs of Palestine until they fled, leaving their homes and property to the enemy."

ANOTHER refugee told the Jordanian daily a-Difaa on September 6, 1954: "The Arab governments told us, 'Get out so that we can get in.' So we got out, but they did not get in."

THE JORDANIAN daily Falastin wrote on February 19, 1949: "The Arab states... encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies."

ON OCTOBER 2, 1948, the London Economist reported, in an eyewitness account of the flight of Haifa's Arabs: "There is little doubt that the most potent of the factors [in the flight] were the announcements made over the air by the Arab Higher Executive urging all Arabs in Haifa to quit ... And it was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."

THE PRIME Minister of Syria in 1948, Khaled al-Azem, in his memoirs, published in 1973, listed what he thought were the reasons for the Arab failure in 1948: " ... the fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering Arab countries ... We brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees by calling on them and pleading with them to leave their land."

"FOLLOWING a visit to refugees in Gaza, a British diplomat reported the following: 'But while they express no bitterness against the Jews...they speak with the utmost bitterness of the Egyptians and other Arab states: 'We know who our enemies are,' they will say, and they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they declare, persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes." -

British Foreign Office Document #371/75342/XC/A/4991 [From "Revising or Devising Israel's History" by Prof. Shlomo Slonim in Jewish Action, Summer 5760/2000, Vol. 60 #4]


"Those good Jews brought civilization and peace to the Arab Muslims, and they dispersed gold and prosperity over Palestine without damage to anyone or taking anything by force. Despite this, the Muslims declared holy war against them and did not hesitate to massacre their children and women... Thus a black fate awaits the Jews and other minorities in case the Mandates are cancelled and Muslim Syria is united with Muslim Palestine."

The statement is from a letter sent to the French Prime Minister in June 1936 by six Syrian Alawi notables (the Alawis are the ruling class in Syria today) in support of Zionism. The grandfather of Hafez al-Assad, the former Fuhrer of Syria, was one of them. (Source, Daniel Pipes, Greater Syria, Oxford U Press, p. 179)

jmf1234

I think the main problem in this conflict is that neither side is willing to take the first step. Also, Jews outside of Isreal and Muslims outside of the middle east refuse to see the other side's story (before you call me prejudiced im insulting myself, im jewish). So like The Dude said, it's going to be one huge never ending circle. With both sides claming that they are the good guys. It's easy to look at the conflict and go back to 1948 and say: Well the land was the Palestinians and it was taken from them. But, it's also easy to look at it like: Half of the jews in the world had just been killed (those words still make my dad never want to visit Germany) and they needed their own country so they went to their ancestors homeland. Basically it comes down to who owned it first and both sides can claim they did and be just as right as the other guys. So no one will ever claim to be the bad guys. And the conflict will never be resolved when the mediator (The US) leans to one side (Isreal).

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debaser

But don't forget that all of the nice letters in the world doesn't change the fact that in 1922 there were about 84,000 jews in Palestine. By 1942 there were 484,000.

Why were they all moving there?

Because Palestine had been declared the Jewish homeland by the First Zionist Congress (1897). If I was a gentile living there I would feel a bit nervous about my future, wouldn't you?

Fast forward to 1947, UN181, and the partition of Palestine:

Jews make up 30% of the population, and own only 6% of the land (most being city dwellers). They are granted 55% of the land in the partition.

I might have hard feelings about that, too.

Fast forward to 2003:

Israel, in the one of the greatest security blunders of all times, has ghettoized Palestinians into highly concentrated population centers, where, since they have no jobs (or economy for that matter), they breed (will be a majority of the population in Israel by the year 2020), simmer with hatred, and build bombs.

Who knows, maybe if Israel represses them a bit more, they will stop hating Israel. I always find that if you beat someone enough they eventually start liking you...

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Sparhawk

Great, informative post. You obviously put quite a bit of effort into it, thanks

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Sparhawk

Very interesting post, there's 2 sides to this story, and it's going to take both sides effort and will to push the process forward. As long as they continue to stew and hate each other, nothing gets done (except more killing).

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

seretogis

I don't consider the killing of leaders of a terrorist organization to be "some terrible destruction". LD's point was not that Israel killed less people, but that they killed people guilty of mass-murder. It is unfortunate that 3-5 innocent people were also hit in the strike, but it was not Israel's intent to kill innocent people -- unlike the Hamas and other terrorist organizations. Israel doesn't kill every Palestinian because they are not a terrorist organization, and do not commit mass-murder.

Would you prefer that Israeli agents start strapping bombs to their chest and wait until they find Hamas leaders on populated busses, and then detonate themselves? Of course not.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Publius

Thanks for the post man. What everyone needs to realize here is that the Palestinians do not seem themselves as terroists, but as Freedom fighters. They do not view Israel as a State but as a terroist organization.

Here in the west this is hard for us to understand because the targets of the Palestinians are civilians. But think this through. Can Palestine fight the Israeli army? Israel = Gunships, Tanks, F-16s, M16s. Palestine = Bombs, a handfull of AK47s, rocks, sticks, and stones. Fair fight?? I am not trying in any way to justify or defend Palestinian tactics, but put yourself in their place. What would you do if you wanted to fight against Israeli oppression? And be honest with yourself. Both sides need to stop the fighting, but Israel as a STATE needs to act civilized and follow rules of law rather than use their supierior military equipment to rain terror down on the Palestinians.

As for The Dude's original post, sure Israel could take out a few of its neighbors, but this would be a very short lived victory. If Israel were to attack its weaker neighboring Arab states I would be very surprised if the Turkey, Iran, and Pakistan did not come too their aid. Any one of these countries could, to quote a Fox reporter when discribing the first few hours of the US lead invasion of Iraq, "Lay the Smackdown" on Israel. Israel may have a few nukes laying around, but so does Pakistan, and so will Iran in by the end of 2005. Turkey has one of the best trained and best armoured militaries in the Middle East, having been supported and supplied by NATO for the past 50 years, they were considered the last line of defense against a USSR lead invasion of the middle east, and they were prepaired to hold the line.

Also, and just for the fun of it, don't think that Israel would massacre the Palestinians?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1458169.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/1381328.stm
http://www.indictsharon.net/
Kind of funny that this is the guy who is now running the government.

4thTimeLucky

There seem to be two issues here and I have tried to keep them seperate:

1) The general destruction, bulldozing and imprisonment of Palestinian territoty by the Israelis. It is this that I associate with Liquor Dealer's words to the effect that:
2) The use of gunships to assassinate suspected terrorist leaders.


I have only addressed (2) in one line way back.

All the rest has been about (1) and whether we should praise Israel for being "restrained" in not "annihilating" the Palestinians.
So to recap: I am not associating the kiling of terrorist leaders with "some terrible destruction".
I AM associating the bulldozing of settlements, the shooting of small children and the indiscriminate damage that helicopter fired missiles and machine guns causes with "some terrible destruction".

I know there are two sides to this. But to take issue with LD's post I needed to discuss Israeli attrocities.

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seretogis

Ahh, gotcha 4th. Thanks for clearing that up.

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perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Liquor Dealer

Then take issue with # 2( Since this was the only issue presented) and don't insert your own issues to argue with. What has happened over the past fifty years with settlements - legal or illegal is irrelevant and totally immaterial to where this thread started and its intent. A week ago both sides agreed to talk - both sides were willing to make some concessions. Hamas has no interest in any thing other than eradicating Israel. Hamas latest round of terrorism's sole purpose was to derail any chance at peace if these negotiations were to go further. Hamas is a terrorist organization. There is nothing else you can call it. Members of Hamas are terrorists - pure and simple - they are terrorists. Israel is dealing with terrorism. How many of the Palestinians are members of Hamas? Turn it around and ask - How many Palestinians are not members of Hamas or Hamas supporters. Could Israel deal with Hamas? Do they have the ability - I think they do. Can they deal with Hamas on their own - Physically they probably can - Politically they would be beaten to death unless they have the support of others. Is Hamas something the US should include in its War on Terror? Israel took out a Hamas leader with a laser guided missile - The cowardly bastard had his pregnant wife and three year old daughter with him. He had no more regard for them than he did the anonymous passenger on a public bus. The same thing? Hamas says it is the same! They say Israel attacked women and children - that this precision attack on a single car with a known occupant was the same as the indiscriminate bombing of public transportation.

Condemn this act if you will - I don't see how you possibly could but I am amazed on what some of you will support and at the same time condemn.

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popo

Originally posted by debaser
But don't forget that all of the nice letters in the world doesn't change the fact that in 1922 there were about 84,000 jews in Palestine. By 1942 there were 484,000.

At that time, there was no Palestine, no Israel. It was just land, no countries. Jordan was cut out from the British Mandate in 1922 as a gift to the Hashemite Kingdom and Jews were forbidden from emmigrating there. It remained Palestinian.

Jews fled European anti-semitism and went to the only place they could go. Other countries were not allowing very many Jews in.

Why were they all moving there?

Because Palestine had been declared the Jewish homeland by the First Zionist Congress (1897). If I was a gentile living there I would feel a bit nervous about my future, wouldn't you?

Actually, many Jews were emmigrating to the area throughout the 1800's. There have been more Jews than Muslims in Jerusalem since the 1840's. There was no goal of moving people, just to settle land that was empty which was most of it. In the 1800's there was less than 300k people in the entire area.

The land was very much wide open. There already were Jews who had lived their throughout history and still were there. Jews were purchasing land from Arab owners to settle on. They were fleeing European persecution. If you think that there's not enough room for them there then maybe that says something about you.

Fast forward to 1947, UN181, and the partition of Palestine:

Jews make up 30% of the population, and own only 6% of the land (most being city dwellers). They are granted 55% of the land in the partition.

I might have hard feelings about that, too.

You're forgetting about Jordan which was created from the same land and was closed off to Jews. That nation is now 60% Palestinian and that percentage was higher before Arafat tried to overthrow King Hussein and he slaughtered 10,000 Palestinians in a couple months before kicking out Arafat and his PLO cronies.

That 55% figure does not include Jordan.

Fast forward to 2003:

Israel, in the one of the greatest security blunders of all times, has ghettoized Palestinians into highly concentrated population centers, where, since they have no jobs (or economy for that matter), they breed (will be a majority of the population in Israel by the year 2020), simmer with hatred, and build bombs.

Who knows, maybe if Israel represses them a bit more, they will stop hating Israel. I always find that if you beat someone enough they eventually start liking you...


I think you're mixing things up. The population that is often alluded to becoming a majority within Israel over the next few decades are the Palestinian Arabs that live within Israel and are citizens. Not the ones on the West Bank & Gaza that are in the conflict. The Palestinians on the West Bank & Gaza will never become part of Israel to become a majority.

The economy was actually doing well before this mini-war started. Investment from Europe and aid from Israel, the US and Europe was bringing the Palestinian economy up. All that crashed after the fighting started.

And I don't believe that a rosy outlook plays any rols into whether Hamas & Islamic Jihad et al bomb buses or not. In the 1996 election campaign where Netanyahu (a hawk) was going against Peres (a dove), bus bombings occured daily while Peres was ahead in all polls. As more bombings went on, Peres kept sliding and Netanyahu crept up. He ended up winning the election purely because of the bombings. What did the Palestinians not get that they would have gotten if Peres had been elected? A country.

If you look at the history, bombings actually went UP in the months after Oslo was signed. Do you know why? Because the perpetrators do not want 2 countries side by side. They want a single country with no Jews in it.

Why is it that each time Israel pulls out of an area, there's a sudden rash of bombings? When Israel clamps down and re-occupies the area, bombings stop. The bombings have absolutely nothing to do with whether the Palestinians feel that they have hope. They are done by people who do not see peace as a good solution.

geep

Israel could avoid the argument altogether if they simply (sic) took these people into custody instead of blowing them up. Whisk them away and execute them later if that's what they want. I will say that negotiating with Hamas is an effort in futility. How do you compromise with someone whose only goal is to kill you? "I'll tell you what- I'll be dead on monday, wednesday and friday." It is important to remember that Hamas does not represent all Palestinians. I think that Israel should not let them derail the peace process. It's like letting them win.

debaser

Well, I'm sure the people whos homes were taken and lives ruined feel much better now that you have cleared up that there wasn't a country there to start with...

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Jews fled European anti-semitism and went to the only place they could go. Other countries were not allowing very many Jews in.

True, but did not the 6th Zionist conference decide that Argentina would be a perfectly acceptable substitute for Palestine? Also, even if this was the only place they could go (which it wasn't), does that make the Palestinian situation any more tenable?

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Actually, many Jews were emmigrating to the area throughout the 1800's. There have been more Jews than Muslims in Jerusalem since the 1840's. There was no goal of moving people, just to settle land that was empty which was most of it. In the 1800's there was less than 300k people in the entire area.

No, Israel was created as a result of the Balfour Declaration, which was a direct result of the Zionist movement. As I stated before, Jews were not settleing the land, they were living in cities when they arrived. I fail to see how the number of people in the area in 1800 has anything to do with the figures I posted above, other than attempt to obfuscate the fact that the Palestinians got screwed.

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The land was very much wide open. There already were Jews who had lived their throughout history and still were there. Jews were purchasing land from Arab owners to settle on. They were fleeing European persecution. If you think that there's not enough room for them there then maybe that says something about you.

And pray tell, what does it say about me?

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You're forgetting about Jordan which was created from the same land and was closed off to Jews. That nation is now 60% Palestinian and that percentage was higher before Arafat tried to overthrow King Hussein and he slaughtered 10,000 Palestinians in a couple months before kicking out Arafat and his PLO cronies. That 55% figure does not include Jordan.

Of course it doesn't. We are talking about Israel. TransJordan was already more than 95% arab, so I fail to see why it is even an issue. The 55% figure also didn't include Vietnam, Canada, or Zimbabwe.

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I think you're mixing things up. The population that is often alluded to becoming a majority within Israel over the next few decades are the Palestinian Arabs that live within Israel and are citizens. Not the ones on the West Bank & Gaza that are in the conflict. The Palestinians on the West Bank & Gaza will never become part of Israel to become a majority.

Nope. Palestinians are the fastest growing population segment in Israel. They will outnumber Jews by the year 2020.

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The economy was actually doing well before this mini-war started. Investment from Europe and aid from Israel, the US and Europe was bringing the Palestinian economy up. All that crashed after the fighting started.

Nope. They were just scraping by before the intifada. Existing on aid dollars does not an economy make. Israels insistence on destroying infrastructure ensure that the will be sucking at Israels tit for many years to come.

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And I don't believe that a rosy outlook plays any rols into whether Hamas & Islamic Jihad et al bomb buses or not. In the 1996 election campaign where Netanyahu (a hawk) was going against Peres (a dove), bus bombings occured daily while Peres was ahead in all polls. As more bombings went on, Peres kept sliding and Netanyahu crept up. He ended up winning the election purely because of the bombings. What did the Palestinians not get that they would have gotten if Peres had been elected? A country.

Well, thats handy for Likud, isn't it? Especially after they killed Rabin...

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If you look at the history, bombings actually went UP in the months after Oslo was signed. Do you know why? Because the perpetrators do not want 2 countries side by side. They want a single country with no Jews in it. Why is it that each time Israel pulls out of an area, there's a sudden rash of bombings? When Israel clamps down and re-occupies the area, bombings stop. The bombings have absolutely nothing to do with whether the Palestinians feel that they have hope. They are done by people who do not see peace as a good solution.

The harder Israel "clamps down" the more bombings there will be. Maybe not in the short term, but it radicalizes the entire Palestinian population.

The only thing I agree with in your post is the fact that there are factions on both sides that have a vested interest in seeing this conflict continue, be they arab terrorists (Hamas, Hezbollah), or jewish terrorists (settlers, right-wing extremists). This is the result of building a nation based on religion: your side is always right, without exception.

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gibber71

Here's my 2 cents.The Americans should cancel the 'roadmap' effective immediately.As long as both the Isreali's and Palestinian's have any say in the matter,they will never see eye to eye.Either define the borders of a Palestinian state irregardless as to what either side has to say, or pull out.

If not that,then this.Have an exchange program for kid's up to 16 years old be implemented immediately.By this I mean Isreali and Palestinian kid's going into each others homes to live for a set amount of time. This will provide insight for these kid's as to how the other side lives on a daily basis and maybe will teach them respect and about the other culture rather than being brainwashed with hatred.Maybe after 50 years of such a program, peace could be had.The best time to break the cycle of hatred is when kid's are young and have not been jaded by the ongoing revisionist rhetoric.

If this idea is dismissed ,the U.S as well as other civilized countries should band together for the betterment of themselves and forget about the Isreali's and Palestinian's.Since the Isreali's and Palestinian's can't or won't find peace,to hell with them.Leave them behind so that the rest of the world can get on with life and benefit from being civil.This is the 21st century,not the13th.Maybe then when both sides realize that no one gives a shit anymore,they too will realize the world doesn't revolve around them.

seretogis

I think that the bombings would probably get worse if a Hamas leader was in prison instead of just dead. Decapitating a beast to kill it is a good approach imo.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Sparhawk

The first thing that sprung to mind reading your post was the legend of the Hydra, where cutting off one head only had more pop up in its place.

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."